Once again fungo, if you hadn't read it above, I was ignorant to the affects of things OUTSIDE of pitching. My parents and I had always heard about pitch counts, pitch counts, pitch counts, and those were always fine. Give you all a general idea of where the pitch counts usually were for me. 12 years old: 55-70 13: 60-70ish 14: 75-85 15: 75-85. Those aren't THAT high... are they? I mean there's a kid I know-still a very successfull player- blew out his elbow twice in back to back seasons to due overuse and throwing too many curveballs. The impression that I got from my doctor (same one on both injuries when I was 8 and 9) was that if I continued on a strict regiment of tubing, running, all that good stuff, that there was no reason my arm shouldn't be fine. I did that stuff consistently, and for years the wing felt great, amazing. What I wasn't aware of was the little bit of damage done each time I warmed up and then didn't have enough time to cool down before I threw again-and all the stuff like that. I realize my posts seems contradictory to you, and you can blow me off as just another teenage kid, but you weren't there, you don't know my body, you don't know the situations. A kid can get overused while on a pitch count of 50. Sometimes it just happens. The intention was to bring light to these situations which also hurt the arm so more parents can be aware... because I had NEVER heard anything like this at a young age.
I asked a question about if anyone thinks that throwing 30 pitches under stress is as bad if not worse than throwing 50 pitches with little or no people on base. I always felt that if I pitched from the stretch, my pitch count was about... 10-15 pitches lower than if I was mainly throwing from the wind-up all game. It wasn't a predetermined thing, just usually happened naturally (I'd tire out quicker).
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
... coaches at the youth level need to pay more attention to developing and using more pitchers and stop viewing 2-3 youth players as stud "stars" who get all the mound time simply because they happened to have matured before the other kids. It's a disservice to all involved. Who the heck cares how fast a kid throws at age 13?
Wise words.
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
Let me add that while my son was in high school I stepped in and stopped my son’s overuse. The coach called me over the same day we had the head to head confrontation and told me that my son had told him he wanted to pitch. I told him I didn’t give a (expletive deleted) what he wanted.
Fungo
Your son is very fortunate to have a dad who is willing to parent.
Dtiger,
You seem very stressed with our replies to your situation and I understand, you didn't KNOW. And neither did your parents.
But the bottome line is that your coaches should have known, unless you played for 2 coaches at a time, they should have known. Thank you for pointing out to us all that you have learned, it is a good example for those who need the information.
As far as the question that you asked, there is so much that goes into the answer.
I think you must know the answer that it is harder to keep runners on base than no runners on base. Those 30 pitches most likely would be more if trying to hold runners up, depends how many times pitcher has thrown to the base. That total amount should be taken into consideration as to time on the mound. You may have thrown 30 pitches, but also 10,20+ to hold runners. In the end, it's the total of everything for the day, warm up, bullpen, pitches (type of pitches) and throw overs to base.
In a 30 pitch count day, the pitcher may have thrown double, even more. Now let's say that pitcher leaves and becomes the ss, just more fuel to the fire. That is why, IMO, players that show promise of future pitchers should not play certain positions that add stress to the arm. The idea is, THROW as little as POSSIBLE. Work as efficient as possible.
You obviously were a workhorse for the teams you played for and used as such. It happens all of the time, unfortunetly.
You should NOT blame yourself.
You seem very stressed with our replies to your situation and I understand, you didn't KNOW. And neither did your parents.
But the bottome line is that your coaches should have known, unless you played for 2 coaches at a time, they should have known. Thank you for pointing out to us all that you have learned, it is a good example for those who need the information.
As far as the question that you asked, there is so much that goes into the answer.
I think you must know the answer that it is harder to keep runners on base than no runners on base. Those 30 pitches most likely would be more if trying to hold runners up, depends how many times pitcher has thrown to the base. That total amount should be taken into consideration as to time on the mound. You may have thrown 30 pitches, but also 10,20+ to hold runners. In the end, it's the total of everything for the day, warm up, bullpen, pitches (type of pitches) and throw overs to base.
In a 30 pitch count day, the pitcher may have thrown double, even more. Now let's say that pitcher leaves and becomes the ss, just more fuel to the fire. That is why, IMO, players that show promise of future pitchers should not play certain positions that add stress to the arm. The idea is, THROW as little as POSSIBLE. Work as efficient as possible.
You obviously were a workhorse for the teams you played for and used as such. It happens all of the time, unfortunetly.
You should NOT blame yourself.
My son is a freshman and will be starting ss and pitcher on his varsity team this spring. He throws in low-mid 80's so i expect a fair amount of pitching work (my guess is he will be the closer).
I'm aware of tom house's NPA pitch count recommendations but my question is how should I factor in him playing ss in determining how much pitching per week is enough/ too much?
I'm aware of tom house's NPA pitch count recommendations but my question is how should I factor in him playing ss in determining how much pitching per week is enough/ too much?
Where can I find House's pitch count recommendations? Are they on line somewhere? Does someone here have them? Are they in a book he published?
igball
What disturbs me at the HS level is the pitcher who goes 7 innings today and tomorrow is at SS---that is not resting the arm
What disturbs me at the HS level is the pitcher who goes 7 innings today and tomorrow is at SS---that is not resting the arm
I don't have House's recommendations handy and I'm not sure they are on his National Pitching Association website, but what I remember from his clinics, the numbers are like this:
HS Pitcher 1500 pitches annually, 75 game.
Numbers are based on 75% pitches being FB, the balance off speed and curve balls. Any per inning pitch count exceeding 30, those pitches count double toward achieving arm fatique.
HS Pitcher 1500 pitches annually, 75 game.
Numbers are based on 75% pitches being FB, the balance off speed and curve balls. Any per inning pitch count exceeding 30, those pitches count double toward achieving arm fatique.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
What disturbs me at the HS level is the pitcher who goes 7 innings today and tomorrow is at SS---that is not resting the arm
I completely agree.
A high-workload P's alternate position should be 1B, 2B, or OF. It definitely should not be C and it really shouldn't be SS or 3B.
Dtiger- I think the point everyone is trying to make is that they understand what you are saying, but at the same time the coaches could be doing a better job regulating your throwing. Still, I know what you are saying. As a player you try to remain optomistic about every possible occurence that happens. An arm injury is the scariest thing that could happen to a pitcher (maybe 2nd to a line drive in the eye). When something like that happens, you look for someone to blame and immediately blame yourself for being "so stupid". I know, I've done it. No one is solely to blame for any of the injuries someone receives, but there is always plenty of blame to go around.
Just to give a personal example: The first game of the year this past spring just so happened to be my first varsity start ever. I was a sophomore and just 15 at the time, and we were away against a team who finished 21-4 the year before and advanced to the state tournament. The newspaper was there, the news cameras were there, to me I felt like Roger Clemens pitching a world series game. It was maybe 45 degrees with a brisk wind blowing to right field consistently. Through 6 innings, I had probably thrown about 90 pitches. I was never in bad trouble, but never coasting either. I literally begged my coach on my knees to keep me in and finish the game. Finally, he gave in- so I thought. His final words in that situation were: "Your father is standing right over there. Go ask him if you can pitch the 7th. If he says yes, you're finishing." I looked over at my father and paused for a minute, then turned to coach and said, "Forget it Coach, it'll never work. Bring in (our closer)."
Sometimes the right people to look to for advice in these situations are the people that know you best. I knew my dad would never, in a million years, let me finish it in those conditions. Coach didn't want me to go out either, and although I was frustrated with the decision, I knew what the intent was. We won the game by one and I got my first varsity win ever.
Dtiger- I hope all goes well with you and your arm in the future. Just remember not to blame yourself for everything, and look for smart advice from who you trust the most, whoever that might be.
Just to give a personal example: The first game of the year this past spring just so happened to be my first varsity start ever. I was a sophomore and just 15 at the time, and we were away against a team who finished 21-4 the year before and advanced to the state tournament. The newspaper was there, the news cameras were there, to me I felt like Roger Clemens pitching a world series game. It was maybe 45 degrees with a brisk wind blowing to right field consistently. Through 6 innings, I had probably thrown about 90 pitches. I was never in bad trouble, but never coasting either. I literally begged my coach on my knees to keep me in and finish the game. Finally, he gave in- so I thought. His final words in that situation were: "Your father is standing right over there. Go ask him if you can pitch the 7th. If he says yes, you're finishing." I looked over at my father and paused for a minute, then turned to coach and said, "Forget it Coach, it'll never work. Bring in (our closer)."
Sometimes the right people to look to for advice in these situations are the people that know you best. I knew my dad would never, in a million years, let me finish it in those conditions. Coach didn't want me to go out either, and although I was frustrated with the decision, I knew what the intent was. We won the game by one and I got my first varsity win ever.
Dtiger- I hope all goes well with you and your arm in the future. Just remember not to blame yourself for everything, and look for smart advice from who you trust the most, whoever that might be.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Where can I find House's pitch count recommendations? Are they on line somewhere? Does someone here have them? Are they in a book he published?
There is at least one article on the NPA website describing pitch counts but you have to be an NPA member to access the article. House's book, "The Art and Science of Pitching" also lists pitch count recommendations. Also, House's recommendations align with the ASMI's recommendations and I'd guess you can find those on the ASMI website.
I threw 243 pitches in a game one time. My coach left me in all 7 innings of a 15-2 loss. He said he wanted me to finish it off because it wasnt my fault that we were losing so bad (13 unearned runs-17 errors). It was a horrible game all around.
243! Were your parents at this game?
I cant remember for sure, but I think they got there at the very end. I didn't really feel any pain but i was more tired while pitching that I'd ever been before. It was espically bad during the 75 pitch innings. I usually am a junkballer/softtosser but that game after about 10 errors I realized that in order to get outs i needed K's. Back then I usually cruised in the mid to upper 60's, but in that game I bet i hit mid 70's a few times. I ended with the following line. Imade a typo on my last post--the score was 13-5--thats why we didn't end due to the slaughter rule.
IP-7
H-6
ER-2
R-13
K-9
BB-2
Total Pitches-243
IP-7
H-6
ER-2
R-13
K-9
BB-2
Total Pitches-243
I’m hoping that with LLI finally taking the plunge and forcing pitch counts on everyone in their program, more and more people will become educated about them.
Accompanying that education, I’m also hoping that the metric of Pitcher Abuse Points(PAP), will be one that begins to become much more prominent.
For those of you not familiar with it, its nothing more than a way to try to show the use/overuse of a P. It was originally developed to try to make a guess about how likely college pitchers would be to break down under the load of pro pitching. It was nothing more than the total number of pitches over 100 a pitcher threw.
A later change made it that number cubed, to make an attempt to show that the more pitches thrown after reaching the optimal time, 100 pitches, the more damaging it was. Hence, the newest of the terms, PAP Cubed.
Since I’ve always tracked pitches, it was a piece of cake for me to get PAP values. The following is the result of all of the 112 HS games I scored. The only real difference is, the games prior to 2003 are all either Fr or JV games. After that date, they’re all V games. One thing I did on my own was to take into account these weren’t full grown adults, and rather than using 100 pitches, I used 85. http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/pap.pdf
As you will be able to see, since the number progression is geometric rather than linear, its very possible that a P who throws a lot more than 85 pitches only a few times, will end up with more points than one who throws 85 many times.
Unfortunately, as Dtiger correctly points out, it may well be that not just the number of pitches, but also the frequency without proper rest is very likely a factor in the likelihood of injury, but as far as I know, no one has tried to factor that in. I know it could be done, but I wouldn’t know how to do it.
Accompanying that education, I’m also hoping that the metric of Pitcher Abuse Points(PAP), will be one that begins to become much more prominent.
For those of you not familiar with it, its nothing more than a way to try to show the use/overuse of a P. It was originally developed to try to make a guess about how likely college pitchers would be to break down under the load of pro pitching. It was nothing more than the total number of pitches over 100 a pitcher threw.
A later change made it that number cubed, to make an attempt to show that the more pitches thrown after reaching the optimal time, 100 pitches, the more damaging it was. Hence, the newest of the terms, PAP Cubed.
Since I’ve always tracked pitches, it was a piece of cake for me to get PAP values. The following is the result of all of the 112 HS games I scored. The only real difference is, the games prior to 2003 are all either Fr or JV games. After that date, they’re all V games. One thing I did on my own was to take into account these weren’t full grown adults, and rather than using 100 pitches, I used 85. http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/pap.pdf
As you will be able to see, since the number progression is geometric rather than linear, its very possible that a P who throws a lot more than 85 pitches only a few times, will end up with more points than one who throws 85 many times.
Unfortunately, as Dtiger correctly points out, it may well be that not just the number of pitches, but also the frequency without proper rest is very likely a factor in the likelihood of injury, but as far as I know, no one has tried to factor that in. I know it could be done, but I wouldn’t know how to do it.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
igball
What disturbs me at the HS level is the pitcher who goes 7 innings today and tomorrow is at SS---that is not resting the arm
Last June, my son (then 15) complained of arm pain for the first and only time in his life. He had pitched about 55-60 pitches in game one of a two-game day. After a couple of hours rest he started game two at SS. I hate to say it, but historically on most of the teams he's played for, when he's not pitching he's usually at SS. Anyway, after warming up in the third he told me his arm was sore and he didn't know if he could get the ball to first base. The coach pulled him. He didn't throw at all for several days, and has been fine ever since, including a couple of complete games in late July. My son is convinced that his trouble was not overuse, but was caused by icing down his arm after throwing a few days earlier. (Icing down has always been a battle - he's believes it stiffens up his arm and actually makes it much harder to warm up the next time he throws). At 16, should he ask his coaches to not play him at SS for a couple days after he pitches? He really has always had a "rubber" arm. He's always played on multiple teams, often with overlapping schedules. How do you know when it's too much, even when your son is saying, and playing like, he's fine? This thread has me concerned.
quote:Originally posted by 2008 Beebe:
At 16, should he ask his coaches to not play him at SS for a couple days after he pitches?
Yes.
quote:Originally posted by 2008 Beebe:
He really has always had a "rubber" arm.
There's no such thing.
Bb, icing a few days before would not have caused the problem.
Pitching in the first game followed by two hours off would cause the arm to be tight, however.
Sounds like it is time to back off some if he wants to continue to be a pitcher.
Pitching in the first game followed by two hours off would cause the arm to be tight, however.
Sounds like it is time to back off some if he wants to continue to be a pitcher.
I agree with thepainguy, there is no such thing as a "rubber arm". I don't know how many times I have heard parents say that about their sons and then 1-2 years later the boys are either having TJ surgery or are out for the season or not playing baseball at all. It just takes common sense with pitch counts, proper rest, icing etc. to keep your son fit.
Two things fro me
01--I am not a believer in icing--I think it "shocks" the system
02-- I cannot find the term "rubber arm" in my dictionary
01--I am not a believer in icing--I think it "shocks" the system
02-- I cannot find the term "rubber arm" in my dictionary
Icing the arm after throwing will not speed up nor hurt recovery. Icing the arm is done simply to prohibit further swelling to the muscles, tendons and ligaments that are severely used during throwing. Throwing a baseball is not a natural motion for a human being and it obviously takes its toll on a person's arm. To say "I iced and it didn't work" is a fals statement because you can't just ice your arm, you still need to go through the proper cardio and strengthening measures, not to mention let it heal over time, before your arm will feel better. But saying the arm hurts because you iced it is wrong, also. I don't believe icing can do any harm, other than your arm feeling a little stiff after icing (because, as TRHit says, it stops blood flow, or "numbs the system"), but as a serious ballplayer you need to have some kind of routine in between games in order to keep your arm in shape.
Thanks for the advice.
Maybe it's time he picks one position, pitcher or SS.
When I used the term "rubber", I only meant that he is not one of the players we've all seen coming up with chronic complaints of arm soreness and fatigue. Left to his own devices the kid would throw all day, every day. He is never tired; and with the exception of a single day last summer, he has never had a sore arm. I ask him. Some of his coaches ask him. Nonetheless, I think I get the point here and I'll talk to him. I have a very good, candid relationship with my son, as most of the posters here have with their sons, but he's at an age where what I tell him is often met with..., skepticism (a nice word for a slight eye roll).
Texan, I agree with you about the probable cause of the soreness. But because he ices infrequently, he's blaming that instead of the pitching/cool down/SS move.
Maybe it's time he picks one position, pitcher or SS.
When I used the term "rubber", I only meant that he is not one of the players we've all seen coming up with chronic complaints of arm soreness and fatigue. Left to his own devices the kid would throw all day, every day. He is never tired; and with the exception of a single day last summer, he has never had a sore arm. I ask him. Some of his coaches ask him. Nonetheless, I think I get the point here and I'll talk to him. I have a very good, candid relationship with my son, as most of the posters here have with their sons, but he's at an age where what I tell him is often met with..., skepticism (a nice word for a slight eye roll).
Texan, I agree with you about the probable cause of the soreness. But because he ices infrequently, he's blaming that instead of the pitching/cool down/SS move.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
01--I am not a believer in icing--I think it "shocks" the system
Does that mean if you’re the HC of a team you don’t allow your P’s to ice, or that you just don’t insist that they do and leave it up to them?
I’ve been down this road way too many times to argue it, so all I’ll say is, it sure looks like there’s more baseball people and medical people saying to do it than saying not to. ;-)
Scorekeeper- When I played for TRHit's team for part of the fall season, icing was never stressed. There was a fairly full staff of coaches who were familiar with pitching, etc. and one of the major things stressed was running and core work. At the stage that we are at, we have our own beliefs of icing and conditioning work and have a good enough sense of what is needed to be done, I believe. For younger ages more guidance is obviously needed, but at the stage that I am at and the players around me are at (I am an '08), it is pretty much up to us as to what we feel is the right method of recuperation.
JH,
1st of all, I’m assuming we’re all talking about HS teams, not teams with HS age players on them. That can be two totally different things.
I’m not willing to go into a debate as to the benefits or detriments of icing, because that’s not the real issue to me. The issue is, when push comes to shove, should a coach make sure his players have the things available they or their parents feel are necessary for their health and welfare, or should s/he impose his/her own beliefs on the players?
In my particular case, I took the time and spent the money to contact some pretty high authorities from the medical staff of the Giants, A’s, and Dodgers, to the 3 most highly regarded sports medicine Drs in the state of Ca, to get a reading on this thing.
They all told me the same thing. Icing, if not overdone, will not cause a pitcher any arm problems, but not icing might slow the healing process of repairing the micro-damage every pitcher endures whenever he throws. To me, that made it an easy choice, and one that caused me to petition the school district to insure all players would have access to ice for every practice and for games, which wasn't happening.
I have no problem at all with players who don’t want to ice. Its not my arm, its theirs. In fact, when the rubber really meets the road and the competition gets really stiff, if you don’t want to ice and you’re in direct competition with me, I hope you don’t ice!
I’d never hope anyone gets hurt, but if it will give me an edge, I’ll take it.
1st of all, I’m assuming we’re all talking about HS teams, not teams with HS age players on them. That can be two totally different things.
I’m not willing to go into a debate as to the benefits or detriments of icing, because that’s not the real issue to me. The issue is, when push comes to shove, should a coach make sure his players have the things available they or their parents feel are necessary for their health and welfare, or should s/he impose his/her own beliefs on the players?
In my particular case, I took the time and spent the money to contact some pretty high authorities from the medical staff of the Giants, A’s, and Dodgers, to the 3 most highly regarded sports medicine Drs in the state of Ca, to get a reading on this thing.
They all told me the same thing. Icing, if not overdone, will not cause a pitcher any arm problems, but not icing might slow the healing process of repairing the micro-damage every pitcher endures whenever he throws. To me, that made it an easy choice, and one that caused me to petition the school district to insure all players would have access to ice for every practice and for games, which wasn't happening.
I have no problem at all with players who don’t want to ice. Its not my arm, its theirs. In fact, when the rubber really meets the road and the competition gets really stiff, if you don’t want to ice and you’re in direct competition with me, I hope you don’t ice!
I’d never hope anyone gets hurt, but if it will give me an edge, I’ll take it.
Scorekeeper- I agree completely. As I said, I don't believe that icing would hurt anyone in any way if done properly. I ice my arm myself after I pitch. The initial question in the thread was about icing and then throwing directly afterward (the shortstop discussion), and I said you cannot do that. Icing the arm is meant to reduce swelling, not speed up recovery. It slows down blood flow and makes the arm feel stiff afterward. Therefore, you cannot throw.
I also agree that players should have access to things like ice. At my school, we have a trainer at every one of our home games with an ample amount of things like tape, etc. Far off over the right field fence in foul territory is our football field, and next to the parking lot is the fieldhouse connected to the football bleachers. In there we have a fully stocked ice room with a machine that reproduces ice constantly, so we have full access at any time.
I think the original questioning was if ice was necessary. In that case, I say no. There are many other ways to recuperate the body as a pitcher, cardio, core, running, thera-bands, things like that. Ice could or couldn't be recommended. If ice is used, keep in mind that it won't hurt you, but you cannot solely rely on ice to recuperate your arm to 100% for your next throw session or game. You need to put in the time and energy to go through proper measures to prepare your entire body.
When Tom Glavine first came over to the Mets, there was an article in the NY Times (I believe, or maybe the NY Post, one of the major publications) about his workout regimen in between starts. Although I am a Yankee fan, I love watching Glavine pitch, especially because I am a lefty pitcher myself. I recommend searching to find that routine, I have tried to create somewhat of a similar regimen around that and I will search for you also. Finding out Roger Clemens' wouldn't hurt either, but good look finding it
I also agree that players should have access to things like ice. At my school, we have a trainer at every one of our home games with an ample amount of things like tape, etc. Far off over the right field fence in foul territory is our football field, and next to the parking lot is the fieldhouse connected to the football bleachers. In there we have a fully stocked ice room with a machine that reproduces ice constantly, so we have full access at any time.
I think the original questioning was if ice was necessary. In that case, I say no. There are many other ways to recuperate the body as a pitcher, cardio, core, running, thera-bands, things like that. Ice could or couldn't be recommended. If ice is used, keep in mind that it won't hurt you, but you cannot solely rely on ice to recuperate your arm to 100% for your next throw session or game. You need to put in the time and energy to go through proper measures to prepare your entire body.
When Tom Glavine first came over to the Mets, there was an article in the NY Times (I believe, or maybe the NY Post, one of the major publications) about his workout regimen in between starts. Although I am a Yankee fan, I love watching Glavine pitch, especially because I am a lefty pitcher myself. I recommend searching to find that routine, I have tried to create somewhat of a similar regimen around that and I will search for you also. Finding out Roger Clemens' wouldn't hurt either, but good look finding it
JH,
Its nice to see someone who doesn’t act as though their 1st born is being ripped from their grasp when they get questioned.
One of the problems with folks from many and varied backgrounds communication through a bulletin board is, in trying to be brief and to the point, they often don’t go into nearly enough detail. Then comes a discussion, that hopefully gets everything explained, but sometimes not, and that’s when threads get way off track.
I admit that when I see someone, anyone say they don’t believe in icing, especially with little or no explanation, it riles me. That’s basically what I was responding to.
I hate to differ with you, but Savannah’s original post said nothing about icing. In fact, the 1st time icing was mentioned, it was Dtiger explaining the things he did to try to make sure his arm was kept healthy.
The next time I can see icing discussed was when 2008Bebe discussed it as being something his son postulated was the reason he was experiencing arm problems., and how I was always a battle for him to get his son to ice,
Then Texan and mmac made brief comments about icing, and finally Trhit said he wasn’t a believer. By the time I saw that and got my response in, you had already responded, but I hadn’t seen it.
So it wasn’t that I was attacking anyone’s beliefs, all I was trying to do was state my opinion too, and that was, that I don’t believe a coach should force his beliefs on any player when it comes to health issues. Like I try to tell people, the things posted on these boards aren’t always taken I context, by readers, so its quite possible someone who’s a LLI Minors coach might see this posted on a HS board and start telling all his charges that icing sucks, don’t do it.
Well, no one’s said that at all, but it certainly might be taken that way. No harm, no foul!
The reason the subject is touchy to me is, when my son 1st went to HS, there was no ice at all for anything at practices. The players could go to the training room, but it was very possible the trainers were gone an the door locked since they often didn’t get done with practice until well after dark.
I didn’t care, I just packed an arm ice-sling in a cooler for him, and would bring it to practice. That got both he and I in trouble, and too tell the truth, I didn’t appreciate being told I lost control of my child’s health the moment he went onto the ball field. SO I rebelled, and it didn’t take very long to get that whole thing straightened out.
Is ice necessary? Absolutely not! But, something is, and ice used in conjunction with other things is at least a accepted precaution by the majority of the medical profession. To me, coaches, parents, and players without MDs ought not to express their opinions without a lot of caveats.
So all in all, here’s what I think. Parents need to take their child to a good sports medicine doc at least once a year when they start playing any sport on more than just a casual basis. Then, they should force that doc to either prescribe things such as nutrition, treatment for injuries, warm-up activities, etc., or send the patient to someone they can recommend.
After that, whatever happens, happens. If the parents are willing to do that, or they can’t find someone capable of doing those things, no one can help that kid! There are just flat out too many experts out there, and there’s no way they can all be right.
Its nice to see someone who doesn’t act as though their 1st born is being ripped from their grasp when they get questioned.
One of the problems with folks from many and varied backgrounds communication through a bulletin board is, in trying to be brief and to the point, they often don’t go into nearly enough detail. Then comes a discussion, that hopefully gets everything explained, but sometimes not, and that’s when threads get way off track.
I admit that when I see someone, anyone say they don’t believe in icing, especially with little or no explanation, it riles me. That’s basically what I was responding to.
I hate to differ with you, but Savannah’s original post said nothing about icing. In fact, the 1st time icing was mentioned, it was Dtiger explaining the things he did to try to make sure his arm was kept healthy.
The next time I can see icing discussed was when 2008Bebe discussed it as being something his son postulated was the reason he was experiencing arm problems., and how I was always a battle for him to get his son to ice,
Then Texan and mmac made brief comments about icing, and finally Trhit said he wasn’t a believer. By the time I saw that and got my response in, you had already responded, but I hadn’t seen it.
So it wasn’t that I was attacking anyone’s beliefs, all I was trying to do was state my opinion too, and that was, that I don’t believe a coach should force his beliefs on any player when it comes to health issues. Like I try to tell people, the things posted on these boards aren’t always taken I context, by readers, so its quite possible someone who’s a LLI Minors coach might see this posted on a HS board and start telling all his charges that icing sucks, don’t do it.
Well, no one’s said that at all, but it certainly might be taken that way. No harm, no foul!
The reason the subject is touchy to me is, when my son 1st went to HS, there was no ice at all for anything at practices. The players could go to the training room, but it was very possible the trainers were gone an the door locked since they often didn’t get done with practice until well after dark.
I didn’t care, I just packed an arm ice-sling in a cooler for him, and would bring it to practice. That got both he and I in trouble, and too tell the truth, I didn’t appreciate being told I lost control of my child’s health the moment he went onto the ball field. SO I rebelled, and it didn’t take very long to get that whole thing straightened out.
Is ice necessary? Absolutely not! But, something is, and ice used in conjunction with other things is at least a accepted precaution by the majority of the medical profession. To me, coaches, parents, and players without MDs ought not to express their opinions without a lot of caveats.
So all in all, here’s what I think. Parents need to take their child to a good sports medicine doc at least once a year when they start playing any sport on more than just a casual basis. Then, they should force that doc to either prescribe things such as nutrition, treatment for injuries, warm-up activities, etc., or send the patient to someone they can recommend.
After that, whatever happens, happens. If the parents are willing to do that, or they can’t find someone capable of doing those things, no one can help that kid! There are just flat out too many experts out there, and there’s no way they can all be right.
Scorekeeper- I've had plenty of spouts on this site and have taken things very much the wrong way. It's hard sometimes to understand that people are opinionated, and reading something over the Internet 3,000 miles away from the person doesn't explain to you what they are saying or how they are saying it. I am on this site simply to learn and to help myself. I know I'm just some 16 year old kid so I try to make the best of what I know and use what everyone else says to my benefit, so I appreciate your response as it helped me learn something.
The original discussion in this forum, as noted by the title, was understanding pitch counts and how to control the overuse of young arms. With pitch counts, I believe, there are a few very important variables. First, the most obvious, is the amount of pitches one throws. This obviously varies by age and person, but throwing 130+ pitches in a game as a teenager is unacceptable. When I watch TV and see Kenny Rogers and David Wells and Brad Radke consistently rack up pitch counts well over 100 pitches, I understand that they are grown men and pitch for a living. They know, probably better than anyone, what they need to do to keep their arm healthy (albeit in Wells' case, that could mean s-u-c-k-i-n-g down a cold one at the pub, but nonetheless it seems to work).
The second most important is mechanics. Is the pitcher throwing "max effort"? Is he putting a lot of strain on his shoulder or elbow, or both? If so, he most likely will not be able to last as long in a game as other people. K-Rod of the Angels probably couldn't start a game and last more than a few innings because he is max effort, he puts a lot of stress on his shoulder and elbow. Same with Joel Zumaya and Billy Wagner. In high school baseball terms (since this is high school baseball web), a guy like Michael Main will most likely have his mechanics changed in the future because he has a cannon for an arm but puts too much stress and effort into his throws. Guys like Matt Harvey and Josh Smoker, on the other hand, will most likely not have to change as much because their motions are pretty fluid and they throw easily.
The third facet of understanding pitch count, in my opinion, is the between game routine I eluded to in my previous posts. Can a high school pitcher throw 100 pitches and rebound for his next start at basically 100%? Yes, absolutely. Maybe he is not capable of doing so every time he comes out, but surely he is capable. The issue becomes, however, the between game preparation. Did you get your proper running in? Did you do your core/abdominal exercises? Did you do proper shoulder-strengthening work? Did you ice properly in proper time limitations? All of these things become majorly important in the recuperation of an arm.
Scorekeeper- I agree 10000000%. As I said before, icing cannot hurt you one way or another, as long as you do it right. But icing cannot be the sole post-game method of recuperation that a pitcher uses.
I also respect your decisions with your son very much. My dad always stresses that he tries to stay out of my game as much as possible and let the coaches handle it. I let him deal with the financial side of it all, and he puts the rest on me. The preparation, the in-game adjustments, dealing with the college letters and e-mails, etc. He pulls the strings behind the scenes, but is never really visible in making decisions for me when others (important others) are watching. The only time he will step in full blast is when it comes to my health. He played Division 1 and Semi-Pro ball, and he's sure been around enough baseball, so I believe he knows what's right for me health-wise. If he believes a coach is doing something that could hurt my physical well-being, he steps in. So, in your case, I can relate very well and respect you for that.
I'm going to have to disagree with this one, however. If a LL coach is smart enough to come on to this message board to read through posts and gain some knowledge about the game, he should certainly spend the time reading through each post before jumping to conclusions as to how to govern the game with his team. No one here ever said icing is a bad thing, so if the coach tries to interpret it that way, I believe it's his fault for being naive to the information presented to him, not anyone's fault for wrongly pointing him in a specific direction. This website gives people a free place to post their opinions and learn about things they love, and it's up to them to interpret it how they want to interpret it. In my opinion here, however, by no means did anyone ever mention that icing is bad.
The original discussion in this forum, as noted by the title, was understanding pitch counts and how to control the overuse of young arms. With pitch counts, I believe, there are a few very important variables. First, the most obvious, is the amount of pitches one throws. This obviously varies by age and person, but throwing 130+ pitches in a game as a teenager is unacceptable. When I watch TV and see Kenny Rogers and David Wells and Brad Radke consistently rack up pitch counts well over 100 pitches, I understand that they are grown men and pitch for a living. They know, probably better than anyone, what they need to do to keep their arm healthy (albeit in Wells' case, that could mean s-u-c-k-i-n-g down a cold one at the pub, but nonetheless it seems to work).
The second most important is mechanics. Is the pitcher throwing "max effort"? Is he putting a lot of strain on his shoulder or elbow, or both? If so, he most likely will not be able to last as long in a game as other people. K-Rod of the Angels probably couldn't start a game and last more than a few innings because he is max effort, he puts a lot of stress on his shoulder and elbow. Same with Joel Zumaya and Billy Wagner. In high school baseball terms (since this is high school baseball web), a guy like Michael Main will most likely have his mechanics changed in the future because he has a cannon for an arm but puts too much stress and effort into his throws. Guys like Matt Harvey and Josh Smoker, on the other hand, will most likely not have to change as much because their motions are pretty fluid and they throw easily.
The third facet of understanding pitch count, in my opinion, is the between game routine I eluded to in my previous posts. Can a high school pitcher throw 100 pitches and rebound for his next start at basically 100%? Yes, absolutely. Maybe he is not capable of doing so every time he comes out, but surely he is capable. The issue becomes, however, the between game preparation. Did you get your proper running in? Did you do your core/abdominal exercises? Did you do proper shoulder-strengthening work? Did you ice properly in proper time limitations? All of these things become majorly important in the recuperation of an arm.
quote:Is ice necessary? Absolutely not! But, something is, and ice used in conjunction with other things is at least a accepted precaution by the majority of the medical profession.
Scorekeeper- I agree 10000000%. As I said before, icing cannot hurt you one way or another, as long as you do it right. But icing cannot be the sole post-game method of recuperation that a pitcher uses.
I also respect your decisions with your son very much. My dad always stresses that he tries to stay out of my game as much as possible and let the coaches handle it. I let him deal with the financial side of it all, and he puts the rest on me. The preparation, the in-game adjustments, dealing with the college letters and e-mails, etc. He pulls the strings behind the scenes, but is never really visible in making decisions for me when others (important others) are watching. The only time he will step in full blast is when it comes to my health. He played Division 1 and Semi-Pro ball, and he's sure been around enough baseball, so I believe he knows what's right for me health-wise. If he believes a coach is doing something that could hurt my physical well-being, he steps in. So, in your case, I can relate very well and respect you for that.
quote:Like I try to tell people, the things posted on these boards aren’t always taken I context, by readers, so its quite possible someone who’s a LLI Minors coach might see this posted on a HS board and start telling all his charges that icing sucks, don’t do it.
I'm going to have to disagree with this one, however. If a LL coach is smart enough to come on to this message board to read through posts and gain some knowledge about the game, he should certainly spend the time reading through each post before jumping to conclusions as to how to govern the game with his team. No one here ever said icing is a bad thing, so if the coach tries to interpret it that way, I believe it's his fault for being naive to the information presented to him, not anyone's fault for wrongly pointing him in a specific direction. This website gives people a free place to post their opinions and learn about things they love, and it's up to them to interpret it how they want to interpret it. In my opinion here, however, by no means did anyone ever mention that icing is bad.
I agree with JH completely. What a well spoken man I must say..
Tom House's NPA Pitch Count Recommendations:
15-18 yr old pitchers
* 105 pitches per game MAX
* 130 per week, or in successive 7 days
* 1250 per season
any pitch count over 30 in an inning counts double.
playing another position the day after a high pitch count game should be monitored.
15-18 yr old pitchers
* 105 pitches per game MAX
* 130 per week, or in successive 7 days
* 1250 per season
any pitch count over 30 in an inning counts double.
playing another position the day after a high pitch count game should be monitored.
quote:Originally posted by KayMart4:
I agree with JH completely. What a well spoken man I must say..
Very well spoken for a YOUNG man! Good job JH!
To ice or not to ice, that is the question.
I asked this of son's college pitching coach, he said he just lets the players do what tehy feel comfortable with(ice or no ice, run, etc.), he had no opinion one way or the other.
I would assume that means AFTER they pitch!
quote:Originally posted by igball:
Tom House's NPA Pitch Count Recommendations:
15-18 yr old pitchers
* 105 pitches per game MAX
* 130 per week, or in successive 7 days
* 1250 per season
any pitch count over 30 in an inning counts double.
playing another position the day after a high pitch count game should be monitored.
Like anyone else’s recommendations, his are good, if for no other reason than if followed, they’ll certainly help, not stop, but help cut down the abuse/overuse problems.
I personally like the additional admonition of pitches in excess of 30 per inning counting double. Its much like the admonition in the PAP cubed metric of recognizing that a more pitches over the number determined to be the max, 100 for pros, I use 85 for HS players, the more points are assessed.
What it boils down to is simply a growing recognition that trying to pitch when in a strained or tired condition, is much more dangerous to the P than going along at some acceptable pace. I’ve always used the rule of thumb that an average of 15 pitches an inning is acceptable. That would be the 105 in a 7 inning HS game House and others recognize.
In my records for HS games, I’ve recorded 25,963 pitches in 1,536 innings, which comes out to 16.72 pitches per inning. That would be an average of 117 pitches per 7 innings, so 15 per inning would be at least better than average.
Suspect that somewhere down the line, there will be considerations for not only the total number thrown in a game, but also modifying that by the number per a given inning, and by the amount of time in between appearances. But at this point in time, at most levels below the pros, there isn’t nearly enough recorded data to make anything more than an educated guess.
Hopefully, number of pitches will soon be one of the “normal” stats tracked, just the way innings are now.
Personally as a catcher, I always ice right after a game and try to run also, or the day after for sure. IMO running helps with the soarness.
quote:Originally posted by KayMart4:
Personally as a catcher, I always ice right after a game and try to run also, or the day after for sure. IMO running helps with the soarness.
KayMart4,
Do you do the running while doing hand stands? ;-)
Its very likely what you’re experiencing is Mother Nature using your elevated heartbeat to bring more oxygen to your cells via the bloodstream. So although the running might very well make you feel better, you can probably get the same effect with any cardio activity that increases blood flow.
With all the beautiful women in Marietta, I think I could find some much more pleasurable activities to increase my heart rate.
quote:Originally posted by Scorekeeper:quote:Originally posted by KayMart4:
Personally as a catcher, I always ice right after a game and try to run also, or the day after for sure. IMO running helps with the soarness.
KayMart4,
Do you do the running while doing hand stands? ;-)
Its very likely what you’re experiencing is Mother Nature using your elevated heartbeat to bring more oxygen to your cells via the bloodstream. So although the running might very well make you feel better, you can probably get the same effect with any cardio activity that increases blood flow.
With all the beautiful women in Marietta, I think I could find some much more pleasurable activities to increase my heart rate.
scorekeeper,
Not understanding why you are being so smart alecky with some pretty smart HS players.
TPM- well, at least one smart one. KayMart signed with Va Tech...I don't know about the other one you're referring to
TPM,
What do you feel I said that was “smart alecky”?
The comment about the hand stands was made in jest, which the “;-)” is supposed to show.
The comment about the increased blood flow resulting from the increased cardio-vascular activity was paraphrased from what I’ve been told by sports medicine specialists, and a few team doctors. The reason I made it was although KayMart may be a bright boy, he didn’t indicate he had any understanding why it made his arm feel better. I was only attempting to elucidate.
The comment about Marietta Ga was also made in jest, and as a compliment to that very beautiful area of the country which the little was meant to show.
If there’s something else I said to one of the youngsters that offended one of them, please let me know. If I can’t explain why I said it, I’ll gladly apologize because I have nothing but respect for any young person who tries to honestly communicate.
If it was you that was offended, I apologize.
What do you feel I said that was “smart alecky”?
The comment about the hand stands was made in jest, which the “;-)” is supposed to show.
The comment about the increased blood flow resulting from the increased cardio-vascular activity was paraphrased from what I’ve been told by sports medicine specialists, and a few team doctors. The reason I made it was although KayMart may be a bright boy, he didn’t indicate he had any understanding why it made his arm feel better. I was only attempting to elucidate.
The comment about Marietta Ga was also made in jest, and as a compliment to that very beautiful area of the country which the little
If there’s something else I said to one of the youngsters that offended one of them, please let me know. If I can’t explain why I said it, I’ll gladly apologize because I have nothing but respect for any young person who tries to honestly communicate.
If it was you that was offended, I apologize.
Quote by scorekeeper:
"With all the beautiful women in Marietta, I think I could find some much more pleasurable activities to increase my heart rate".
"With all the beautiful women in Marietta, I think I could find some much more pleasurable activities to increase my heart rate".
scorekeeper...i like to run becuase it is a way i can get the lactic acid moving..better? ha and yes there are plenty of beautiful women down here in Marietta. Some of them not worth what you would have to put up with if you understand what I'm saying.
quote:Originally posted by KayMart4:
scorekeeper...i like to run becuase it is a way i can get the lactic acid moving..better? ha and yes there are plenty of beautiful women down here in Marietta. Some of them not worth what you would have to put up with if you understand what I'm saying.
I hope you don’t think I was calling you a dunce, because I wasn’t.
That’s exactly why its good to have the heart beat up a bit. The bloodstream is nature’s way to clean up the mess we makes of ourselves.
Yes, I do understand! LOL!
