unlv says we don't want u, even with NLI

More observations...

This is a very valuable discussion. Brings up so many important points regarding choices and realities and research and the nature of the "business" and of people...and there are no easy answers.

It should, and has to be noted by those coming up, making decisions on schools...that while such changes are out there and they are fraught with danger...the UNLV situation is simpy the "perfect storm" of coaching changes. While civility has been feinged between the JC and UNLV, local and outside contingents...anyone with boots on the ground would have told you that it was anything but, and has been for years and years.

Sadly the unsuspecting kids and families in grat part regardless of talent (I assure you that there was talent there) got caught in the middle of that political stuggle...particularly those from the previous regime, and particularly those outside Las Vegas...and the pendulum that swung heavily to "our kids, our coaches, our fans" cut deeply.

44
.

I remember many moons ago my first team meeting in college. The HC walked in the room and said. "I want everyone of you to have a great college experience here. I want everyone of you to have a great college football experience here. But the fact is some of you will not. Some of you will not be happy here. Some of you will be discouraged by your role on this team. Some of you will not make this team. Some of you will not take care of business in the class room. And some of you will be good enough to help us but we wont see it."

I think that coach was right on the money then and I think that same speech is true today. I understand that sometimes its really about being in the right place at the right time. Sometimes its just about the coach seeing something in the player or not seeing something in the player. So I certainly understand the reality of college athletics. I understand the need for some to move on for their benefit and the programs benefit. I am not disputing any of that with my posts on this subject.

Honor your word. Honor the word of those before you. All anyone can expect is a fair shake. An opportunity at a fair shake. These kids are being punished for something they did not create and had nothing to do with. Thats all I am saying. It is simply bs and I hate it for these players.

Now what do they do about it? They find somewhere to go to play and go to school. I am sure there will be plenty of good baseball folks to step up and help them. They will bounce back. The best kids in American imo are baseball players. I know I am biased. But after spending so much time around these kids and seeing the type of kids out there that play this game and love this game they are the cream of the crop. Good luck

This coach acts like his ex Juco is some kind of endless well of talent. While there was a good mix of talent, he seems to forget he had what may have been the prodigy of the decade and his brother who won eleven games as a pitcher and these guys will not be joining him. Without those two would this Juco have gotten as far as they did?

Totally agree with that coach. You see players in all sports who may be unhappy for one reason or another. Some have legit complaints but you deal with what you are given.
The real problem is the sit rule to me and not so much the coach and administartion. The sit rule magnifies the situation and it is a real toss up wether it is more cruel to tell the player before he cpmes or after he sits the freshman year. Personally I would rather hear it before I stepped on campus. Even if I took a year off, worked and then did the recruiting thing all over.

The most important thing about this tread is to understand what can happen. We knew going in and would not have changed a thing.

In the name of fairness, my son told me that a player he knows who transferred from CSN got a lot of help from the coach finding a new place to play.

quote:

It looks like UNLV already gets a lot of HS'ers from So Cal:

Buddy Borden RHP 6-2 200 R-R Arbor View Las Vegas NV
Dillon Bryant 2B 5-10 190 R-R Orange Lutheran Orange CA
Perry Cooper LHP 6-3 220 L-L The Woodlands Woodlands TX
Keegan Dale MIF 6-2 167 L-R Martin Luther King Riverside CA
Zack Hartman IF/RHP 5-11 165 R-R Arbor View Las Vegas NV
Joey Lauria RHP 6-4 230 R-R Legacy North Las vegas NV
Kyle McNutt RHP 6-2 180 R-R East Valley Redlands CA
Brandon Rainford RHP 6-1 180 R-R Stevens Rapid City SD
Taylor Smart SS 5-9 170 R-R Tahoma Maple Valley WA

Very impressive recruiting class. Looks like the school worked for this class of recruits. I can not even imagine this school showing up in those areas to recruit with their colors on.

The new Rec coord is from NV reno and has lots of experience. I wonder if he even knows what went down.

I really feel for the boys as no matter what is said they still have to do deal with the situation. Young people are pretty resilient, but I just worry that for some they may never ever get over this one.

What I might say is to pick it up, never ever forget it, prove em wrong, carry a little chip on your shoulder, use it for daily motivation to become even greater than you would have, and one day the moment will arrive where you get the chance to gain satisfaction, and believe me it will happen, you will enjoy it to the max, and the expression on their face will be priceless. And you will be great, and you will embrace change, and change is good, and accepted it as the best thing that could have happened, as the guy upstairs works in mysteriuos ways. FATE!

And if that moment does not happen, and their team keeps finishing 2nd or lower in league and never makes it to even a regional series, well call the guy and do not be politicaly correct, just tell him what you really think, and then give the old click.

Thats what I might do. But my parents, or friends, or Tea Party kind of people, well they just might make a cause over this and maybe just maybe something really big happens.

Many seem to be missing the real issue here and if you are directly involved, and concerned should probably contact the NCAA. The NLI only promises a monetary award for one year. The new coach is not taking away anyone's scholarship, but he's obviously encouraging players to move on. Why? Because he wants to free up the committed money for his players from his previous college (a JUCO). Is this an issue? Not really, but what raises red flags at least in my opinion and could be an issue are a couple of things. First, if these players the new coach wants to bring in are better than current recruits and roster players, why had they not committed elsewhere? Obviously the new coach feels these players are better than the talent he has not been exposed to and you can bet the players he wants to replace were offered scholarships at multiple schools. So, again why are all of these players free to commit at this late stage? This brings up the second issue. It appears obvious the players the new coach wants to bring in now were promised scholarship money when it was not available and the new coach was yet to be in a position to even make such promises. Or worse yet, an other source approached these players. It's not unusual for a player to fall under the radar until the end of June before he commits. But several players? From my view this scenario doesn't pass the smell test.

HitandRun you make a good point. But to a kid who chose a college not to just be a student but to also be a college baseball player, by the coach telling them you will not be on the team he is taking away their opportunity. Who gives a rats a@@ about keeping the one year of 25% scholley if your not going to be allowed to be on the team?

There is no doubt that the players on his JUCO team were set to follow him. If not they would have already been set to attend other schools. This coach knows full well that these players are not going to come if they are not going to be allowed to play. No player who has worked to play at the next level and loves the game is going to go just because he has signed an NLI but is not going to be allowed to play. And the coach knows this.

The New coach offered no assistance to the player from our program. That player talked to a few others and said the same. The old coaches have actually sent emails and made phone calls on the released players behalf. It was basically...see you later.

The player can stay for the year and keep the scholarship for one year but if they do stay they use that year of eligibility and when they transfer after the first year that would have to sit out another year or go to a JC.

You can take that to the bank, Coach May that the players on Coach Chambers previous team at CSN were set to follow him. That's where I think someone needs to alert the NCAA. I doubt this was an ordinary coaching hire where a committee was established, paper screening took place, initial interviews were conducted followed by secondary and maybe even a third interview. (One can confirm this by making a public records request). I will bet there were several influential community members (e.g. "boosters" - got that NCAA?) who had a great deal to do with the hiring. It was a done deal long before it was a done deal and that possible interference with these athletes, although maybe indirectly could be serious for UNLV. If I was investigating this, the first thing I would do is interview each of the CSN players Chambers is bringing to UNLV and ask some probing questions. It wouldn't take long to expose the smoking gun if there is indeed one.

quote:

If I was investigating this, the first thing I would do is interview each of the CSN players Chambers is bringing to UNLV and ask some probing questions.

Regardless of the situation, now you are suggesting that the NCAA question players who had nothing to do with the coach's and administration's decisions?

These players DID NOTHING WRONG.

Why don't you call the NCAA and ask them. As far as I know there are no rules regarding coaches bringing former players with them from any place (as long as they have a release if in college) or contacting recruits going from one program to the next. I am not saying I agree with that, but I don't think there are any rules to prevent it from happening.

And how do you know these players had no where else to go?

Ok, not saying that I agree with this Coach at all but I think it's worth pointing out that the Coach knows who these kids are.....if UNLV recruited them then he no doubt saw them play at the same tournaments/showcases as UNLV's staff did so i'm sure he knows who he is running off.....again I don't agree with him just responding to the several posts about him doing this to kids he doesn't know.

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:
Ok, not saying that I agree with this Coach at all but I think it's worth pointing out that the Coach knows who these kids are.....if UNLV recruited them then he no doubt saw them play at the same tournaments/showcases as UNLV's staff did so i'm sure he knows who he is running off.....again I don't agree with him just responding to the several posts about him doing this to kids he doesn't know.

Recruiting for a JUCO in Southern Nevada is different than recruiting for a 4 year school. My guess is he will be loading up this year with JUCO players from his old school and other JUCO's that they played.

I am the parent of one of the So Cal "recruits", I just want to thank you all for your support regarding this issue. As you can imagine this has been devastating to my son as well as to our family. Just to set the record straight...Mr. Chambers NEVER saw ANY of the recruits play, he did not care what they could do, he did not care about their character and most importantly he did not care about their NLI. He was cold hearted when he called and told my son, "do NOT show up, you are NOT welcomed here and you will NEVER play baseball on this field", these were the words he used to an 18 year old boy who wanted the opportunity to prove himself to this man, he NEVER said he would NOT attend UNLV after the coaching change! My son has a GPA of 4.0 and has played for the best teams in So. Cal! He turned down other offers to play at UNLV and has been a "Rebel" for a year, he has worn their clothes, watched their team and was excited to play for Buddy Gouldsmith and David Martinez. This kid along with the others were off the "market" for one full year and dedicated their lives to UNLV. In a ONE minute conversation this was all taken away!

Yes, life goes on and my son along with the other 8 boys will go forward, will they learn from this ABSOLUTELY! I think my biggest problem with all of this is that this man NEVER saw or met these boys, he missed out on a great bunch of young men. I met most of these boys and know what awesome players and men they are! Mr. Livengood lied when we contacted him after they let Coach Gouldsmith go, he informed us that "all the recruits would be well taken care of and would have the opportunity to meet the new coach", well if this is his idea of "well taken care of and his idea of meeting the new coach with a one minute conversation", I would hate to see what would of happened if they were not "well taken care of"!

Coach Buddy Gouldsmith and Coach David Martinez are awesome people and men of honor, I wish them nothing but the best in their future endeavors.

As far as my son goes, well, it looks like JC unless someone can come up with an offer. We have put this in God's hands and are grateful for all the love and support we have received.

Thank you.

Cab23,

Trully sorry for your son.I can only imagine, all the work we do as families to get our boys noticed.Very sad situation and disgusting.Makes my stomach sick.

I wish they could go elsewhere and not have to sit.I hope all of you contact the NCAA and let them know what transpired.It needs to be noted.

fanofgame,

Thank you so much, yes, tons of work and tons of cash and tons of dedication! It also makes my stomach sick and my heart ache, but I know something spectacular will happen to him in his future! He is a great kid with great work ethics!

Thanks again for your support.

cab23: My apologies....if he never saw them play then wow, that makes it even worse.

i guess on the positive side, him acting like that makes it pretty obvious to your son that he would have wanted no part in playing for this "man"

if he treats kids he doesn't know like this, imagine what will happen when a kid is 0-4 with 3 k in the season opener!

cab23...

Sent you a PM...

44
.

Well there it is. Straight from those directly touched by this. cab23 good luck with this I know it has to be a very tough situation to have to deal with. I am sure there will be some very happy college coaches out there when they learn that some fine young men as well as fine baseball players are available. Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by cab23:
He was cold hearted when he called and told my son, "do NOT show up, you are NOT welcomed here and you will NEVER play baseball on this field",

That's just absolutely ridiculous behavior. In my prior posts, I was making a point that people need to deal with DI schools with their eyes open. But d@mn...nobody deserves to be treated like this.

This coach's recruiting philosophy is going to get him burned sooner or later. And you'll get to sit back and watch.

I'd like to respond to TPM's previous post...

Am I suggesting the "NCAA questions players who had nothing to do with the coach's and administration's decisions?"

If the NCAA deems this issue worthy of investigation they will do what they have to do and interveiwing players may be one option. It happens all the time when investigations are undertaken. As far as an "administrtive" decision - Personally I don't think this is the case. Rather it's a coach out of control with poor oversight by the athletic director.

You are correct, TPM the players did nothing wrong, but that's not the point and no one is blaming the players.

You are right and I have stated this previously, there are no rules regarding coaches bringing former players with them. However, there are rules as to who and what can be promised to potential recruits and that's what needs to be determined. If these players were promised scholarships and/or admission by the new coach before he was officially hired then it would be no difference than a booster making such promises which is a violation. The new coach had a very good team. He was hired just a few weeks ago and then immediately announced he was bringing several of his players with him. A coincidence? I don't think so.

You are correct, I do not know if these players had other schools to attend. If they did, then it raises a real red flag as to why they didn't commit. And if they didn't have any other place to go, how could the new coach be dumping recruits who turned down multiple schools for a group of JUCO players who were overlooked?

quote:

hitandrun posted: Rather it's a coach out of control with poor oversight by the athletic director.

I guess there a bunch of poorly supervised, out-of-control newly hired coaches. This scenario is repeated often every year.

Who said it was a coincedence for his old players to follow him to the new school? I don't understand what is so dirty about taking his own juco players to a 4-year school. The new guy is responsible for the team's record next year, not the fired coach. This isn't fun and games. These coaches are trying to hang on to six-figure salaries. Expecting them to do more than obey the rules is just not realistic.

If you are looking for saints and heros, I probably would look elsewhere than the college baseball office, although you will find many, many fine gentlemen more than worthy of mentoring young adults. That usually goes hand-in-hand with a successful program, but good programs have talented players, first.

HitandRun,
This is a bad situation, but on the surface, there is nothing contrary to NCAA rules.

UNLV had plenty of scholarships to give to JC players, because it has until July 1 to inform returning players if their scholarships are being renewed. The NLIs represent the only committed money before then.

The JC players typically won't have committed to any 4 year school until the Baseball season is over. Furthermore, some JC players won't commit until after the draft, because the target 4 year schools may not know if their best players will be drafted in an early round.

A coach at JC "A" canot easily be compared to a booster of 4 year school "B", even if he subsequently takes a position at "B". He necessarily has frequent conversations with, and gives advice to, his JC players. Such advice could (and should) include his opinion of the likelihood of a coaching change at potential landing spots for his players.

Sure, there could have been a violation of rules. But the situation, as described here, can have easily occurred without any violation.

Dad04, you have to be kidding! You wrote:

"Expecting them to do more than obey the rules is just not realistic".

You bet it's expected that coaches obey the rules, especially new coaches. And it's not necessarily rules that they should obey, but protocol and ethics. Show me a school in the country where a newly hired JUCO coach brought 8-10 players with him at his new school.

And 3FingeredGlove - call the NCAA and they will tell you what the definition of a booster. I think you might be surprised.

If the former CSN coach (or any one else associated or not associated with UNLV) in so much as alluded to any of the players at CSN that he(CSN coach) might be the new coach at UNLV and to hold off on making any type of commitment, you can bet the NCAA would be on UNLV like a swarm of bees.

quote:

Originally posted by HitandRun:
Show me a school in the country where a newly hired JUCO coach brought 8-10 players with him at his new school.

There are two D1 programs in Nevada. Where else would you like the Nevada Juco players to go? Should they not be allowed to matriculate where they can and want to, because their coach moved on? That isn't their fault or problem.

If rules are obeyed why the outrage? D1 athletic programs run right on the edge of the rules and have since rules were made.

Help me understand, please. That is unethical because of......

Should a newly hired corporate manager not be allowed to bring in new employees, as needed, he or she is familiar with?

Correct me if I am wrong, but JUCO's don't fall under the jurisdiction of the NCAA rules, so in reality the coach could have told anyone what he wanted to without penalty if not yet hired?

I still don't know why one should question a player about a coaches motives, is that fair?

If teh coach had a very good team, why wouldn't he want to bring in his players?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the verbage of the coach was appropriate, or the situaton they placed the current or commited (NLI) players in certainly wouldn't want my son to play with someone like that.

I got to go with 3FG who knows the rules better than anyone, there is a difference between walking the fine line and breaking rules.

TPM,
It's true that Jucos arent't bound by NCAA rules, but anyone who eventually falls under the jurisdiction of the NCAA may have done something in the past that is against NCAAA rules.

For example, a player who accepted payment for playing baseball as a high school player is not eligible for NCAA competition, even though the infraction occurred while the NCAA had no jurisdiction over him.

So the fact that the coach wasn't employed by UNLV doesn't exempt him from the rules. However, based on what has been presented here, I don't see any reason to believe that he did break a rule.

I do think the University has broken it's word.

Thanks 3FG. Is there a specific rule though that prohibits coaches not employed by an NCAA institution to NOT talk to players about this?

If you wish to send a complaint you should start with the following:
President Neal J. Smatresk, Ph.D. president@unlv.edu 702-895-3201
Athletic Director Jim Livengood jim.livengood@unlv.edu

The athletic director will probably try to cover for his new baseball coach but the president will not want someone blowing up his email address and telephone.

One of the players let go by UNLV was picked up by Fullerton. The player from our program will now by going to San Diego State on a scholarship.

SGV, you are a class act.

That is great news for these young men. sgvbaseball good job!

playfair and coach_May, thank you for the compliment. I am happy for the Dillon. He is a great kid who derserved this. We had one other school in South on him and the SD State deal went on this morning and he got it done. Not a bad deal for the kids. One now gets to play for the Titans and Dillon gets to live and play in San Diego. I have a couple more seniors that we are trying get somewhere. The funny deal is they were not good enough for UNLV but yet just fine for Fullerton and SD State.

sgvbaseball,
Check out this comment from O44 (who knows a lot about UNLV baseball).

It may be incorrect to assume that the new coach thought the released players "were not good enough."
O44's post

Congratulations to the two incoming freshman. I would say SD State and CSUF are pretty good places to land. If the new coach did think these players were indeed good enough to play at UNLV I cannot believe he would let politics get in the way. It has been confirmed that he told these young men that he's bringing in his entire infield plus several others and they are (in his distorted view) better than the incoming and some current roster talent. For you statistic buffs, the new middle infield the coach is bringing in made 37 errors in 67 games for a .920 fielding percentage this past season. They better have some big bats because that's a mighty big infield hole to compensate for. The one player the new coach told couldn't play at UNLV that got picked up by CSUF is a shortstop! This new coach is delusional if he thinks his JUCO players are better than the talent he has chucked aside.

Well all he has to do is chuck those kids aside after next season if they don't get it done and replace them with a new crop of players. Its not like its going to bother him or anything.

I am so happy for these players. And going to good programs and in good areas.They are better off than before.

This has been a really unfortunate situation, but I think it unfair to comment on the JUCO players and their production who got caught in the middle and will be playing for the new coach.

If you want statistics, Clemson as a team made 100 errors this past season with a FLD% of .963, the ss alone made 32 of them, with a % of .894.

You all know they went to Omaha, right?

I understand the frustration of those who feel an outrage, but let me ask you this, if one of your son's were one of those JUCO players, would you advise them not to go because someone was going to lose their position?

Making those type of comments, IMO is way out of line.

Good luck to the players who found a new home, I hope that this will instill in them how hard you have to fight in this game just to earn the opportunity to show off your skills, let alone keep your position.

I still stand by what I said and my philosophy, that things happen for a reason, one door closes and another one opens. If you look back with bitterness all it does is give you a bad taste in your mouth, accomplishes nothing else. Move forward.

Congrats to those guys who have found a new baseball home. I hope they have much success and happiness on the field and off!!