unlv says we don't want u, even with NLI

Wow.

College baseball is a business.The sooner you realize that the better you will understand how it operates.

Being that it is a business I suggest to all parents to treat it as such and protect your sons.

This situation is awful, but it is reality with some teams and coaches.

Probably have to go to a JC.

If they release the players from the NLI they can go elsewhere.But it is late.But a full release , you can get another offer and play elsewhere.

If they take the scholarship for a year and not play do they lose eligibility if they transfer to another program next year?

I believe so, but am not for sure.Experts with the rules can answer that.The thing is those scollys if players use them count against the roster.So if he told 5 guys that and they come to school and keep those scollys they will be counters on his roster for that year.So if they are not on team they will be on the roster if they have signed NLI.

i may be wrong, but it is my understanding that the coach can release them from the nli. with no penalty.

i'd say it's worth a call to the coach. and ask him.

If they show up at a 4 year school and attend full time, on scholarship or not, their 5 year clock starts to run. If they don't play and transfer, they still need to sit out a year before playing at the new school, that will be 2 years off the 5 year clock.

The coach and player, by mutual agreement, can agree to dissolve the NLI, freeing up the player to talk to other schools.

Most here will tell you it's time to punt. Showing up at a school where they don't want you is not in anyones best interest. It's late in the game to try to attain D1 scholarship monies, but not impossible. Falling back to a JUCO team will mean probable scholarship and the opportunity to be recruited again by a wide variety of schools, many more than have the ability right now.

I think this coach is being honorable.

A school hires a new coach almost always because they want him to take the program in a different direction, and they always want results soon. This coach probably knows that it's a fool's paradise to think he's got a 2-3 year pass where he can blame the prior coach's recruiting mistakes if he doesn't succeed. So he HAS to go get athletes who match his philosophy, and who are loyal to him because he sat in their living room saying "I want you". And he has to get those kids in his system quickly.

In spite of that pressure, he's offering to honor the school's commitment for a full year, and tie up his scholarship money on students that he's not even going to use in his program.

Yes, it slows this kid down, and yes that is tragic. But these programs are too big, with too many other interests at stake. I agree with fanofgame, it's only realistic to recognize those possiblilities when you get involved with these big-time programs.

My guess is that he would be more than happy to dissolve the NLI if asked, and if he can.

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
I think this coach is being honorable.

A school hires a new coach almost always because they want him to take the program in a different direction, and they always want results soon. This coach probably knows that it's a fool's paradise to think he's got a 2-3 year pass where he can blame the prior coach's recruiting mistakes if he doesn't succeed. So he HAS to go get athletes who match his philosophy, and who are loyal to him because he sat in their living room saying "I want you". And he has to get those kids in his system quickly.

In spite of that pressure, he's offering to honor the school's commitment for a full year, and tie up his scholarship money on students that he's not even going to use in his program.

Yes, it slows this kid down, and yes that is tragic. But these programs are too big, with too many other interests at stake. I agree with fanofgame, it's only realistic to recognize those possiblilities when you get involved with these big-time programs.

My guess is that he would be more than happy to dissolve the NLI if asked, and if he can.

I agree with wraggArm on this one.

I see the new Coach was a JUCO coach (Bryce Harper's school). Perhaps he can help some of these kids find a new home. Maybe even at his old JUCO.

This is a setback but can be turned into a positive. They need to get busy and come up with a new plan. No time to wallow in sorrow.

I'm sorry but it isn't the least bit honorable. It is in fact despicable. He took a coaching job and the NLI's came along with it. He's screwing kids in order to make it "easier" for himself. That is neither a good nor an honorable coach. He isn't offering to honor the commitment for a year, he's legally bound to honor it and he's trying to get out of it any way he can.

The only right thing to do is to fully honor the NLI's and work to make those players a useful part of the program.

The players are on scholarship because they are good players. They may not fit his mold but a good coach could certainly use them in his program.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
I'm sorry but it isn't the least bit honorable. It is in fact despicable. He took a coaching job and the NLI's came along with it. He's screwing kids in order to make it "easier" for himself. That is neither a good nor an honorable coach. He isn't offering to honor the commitment for a year, he's legally bound to honor it and he's trying to get out of it any way he can.

The only right thing to do is to fully honor the NLI's and work to make those players a useful part of the program.

The players are on scholarship because they are good players. They may not fit his mold but a good coach could certainly use them in his program.

Maybe honorable is not the right word. He could just wait until fall scrimmages are over to tell these kids. Who knows, one of them might change his mind. That would be despicable imho. Or... he can tell them now and mitigate the damage... maybe it is not honorable but it is the right thing to do if he knows these guys won't play anyways.

Did this new coach send this to all of the prior coach's recruits or just selected ones?

IF it was sent to all the prior coach's recurits...will that not hurt his ability to win...seems to me that you go with the players that are coming and start your recruiting process to build your team?

quote:

Originally posted by dad43:
IF it was sent to all the prior coach's recurits...will that not hurt his ability to win...seems to me that you go with the players that are coming and start your recruiting process to build your team?

Question: isnt this just the coach playing the tough negotiator? I cannot imagine a kid who is using up his money not getting the opportunity to earn playing time.. this will free up some money from those who choose not to press. Doubt he really wants all the recruits not showing.

It's obviously too late for those kids but the lesson here is to DO YOUR HOMEWORK. It is usually very clear if a coach is on thin ice. Cal State Northridge was a perfect example of this. CS Monterey Bay, also. Anyone thinking about USC better be careful. There are many others I am sure.

I don't know that this coach is honorable or despicable.
He has been hired to do a job and is replacing a staff that didn't meet the expectations set for them by the AD and Administration of UNLV.
What would seem likely is this issue came up in the hiring process and what the coach is doing is fully supported by his AD and administration of UNLV.
Since the information is second hand at best and maybe 3rd or 4th, we don't know, but it seems likely to me, the coach is offering to release recruited players from the NLI. He is advising them as to the option should they choose to come to UNLV. He is delivering a very tough message but it does sound like he is being direct and honest.
For those who are part of the team, he is saying their scholarships won't be renewed for 2010/2011.
That happens all the time. Nothing new or unusual about this.
So, to me the sole issue, if the actions are to be "judged," are the actions of the new coach with those who signed the NLI with the prior staff. While it is true they have a binding agreement, agreements and contracts can be altered if both sides agree. The coach is saying he will honor the NLI for one year. He is also saying there is nothing for that player after one year and they won't be playing at UNLV this year(if that is what he said.)
The player can choose to attend and the contract for the scholarship will be honored. The player can choose to accept the release.
In my view, the AD and Administration set the expectations for this coach and the baseball program.
The coach knows what he has to achieve and the time frames in which to do this.
Not sure he is acting honorably or despicably. He is doing what is permissible in looking to achieve what the AD has set for his goals so he does not end up like the previous coach.
Certainly, these can be emotional issues and it is darn easy, understandable and completely reasonable to react with emotion. The closer one is to the player, the more emotion.
Every once in awhile we get a swift kick to our backside that once again makes us realize DI college baseball can be a tough, tough business.
As CD noted, the coach could have allowed the players to show up in the Fall and worked them to the point of physical and mental exhaustion to get them to quit and if they didn't, he would tell them no baseball in the Spring. To me, that would be despicable.
What I am reading is the Coach is talking to a 17-18 year old about his realities and their realities and, for probably the first time, the player/family is hearing business at its toughest.
Baseball is life and it includes DI college baseball.
I think there are DI coaches who would and do the exact same thing. There are some who would not do this and would view it as their job to "coach" each and every player to get better.
Some might find it surprising, but there are some DI coaches who get "burned" by recruits.
Isn't a player who signs the NLI with every intent of going to MLB if drafted and offered the $$$ doing exactly what this coach is doing, just in reverse as a player, as an illustration?

quote:

Isn't a player who signs the NLI with every intent of going to MLB if drafted and offered the $$$ doing exactly what this coach is doing, just in reverse as a player, as an illustration?

Yup, and it happens every year and we don't blink an eye.

No one blinks an eye every year when football and basketball "commits" change their "commitment" at the 11th hour. Its happening in baseball too now, just in case you wondered.

I agree with infielddad on nearly every point. This is almost certainly (I'd say 99.999999%) with the concurrence of the AD. It is not uncommon when there's a coaching change and everyone here who aspires to get their son to college or pro baseball MUST realize that the rules you've been living under change (a lot) when you enter the "business" of higher level baseball.

It ain't pretty, but it is the reality of college and pro baseball.

I think the coach is doing about the 'least-distasteful' thing he can under the circumstances.

I wonder what the local sports paper thinks about this?

The students who signed with the school can be released and go to a jc.
However, the students who transfered there as a junior last year from a jc that have already used up that jc eligibility can not. I know of one young man in that situation. Even if he is released does he still have to sit out a year, if he finds another D1 to go to? can he go to a D2 or 3 or NAIA without penalty?
His is the situation I find despicable. On the letter of intent one of the points made is that the student is signing with the school, not the coach. For a player who has already made that transition, has been there a year and only has one year left of his eligibility, I would think a coach would keep and give him a shot to fit into the new program. At least let him decide if he is up to the challenge, rather than make that decision for him, a 21 year old.
And yes, I know baseball is a business, even at the college level, but I think this coach, in this situation, is showing his true colors and could care less for the human side.
We revel in the human side of baseball with all the heartfelt stories of young men, families and victory and failure. This coach seems to have forgotten that honorable side of it in this situation. And yes, the closer you are to a player the more emotional it is. But I think I would have this opinion whether I knew the student or not.
I would beware of this coach in the future.

To me, it's unbelievable. You'd think the guy might at least want to see if you can play first.

I think if it were me and my son, I'd go there in person and look the guy in the eye and ask him what the heck we were supposed to do now. I would want to know how he knows so much about my son that he's already sure he doesn't want him. And I'd wonder who exactly was going to take my son's money so quickly, that he could afford to lose him right away even.

Lots of people who find it easy to make phone calls or send e-mails or such find out it's not so easy when the person is sitting right across from them.

I tend to think this is more to the despicable than the honorable. Someone is putting themselves first at the expense of a bunch of innocent young guys who now have very limited if any options. And if the AD is backing this play, it merits all of us doing what we can to steer kids away from a program where a culture like that is in place.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
To me, it's unbelievable. You'd think the guy might at least want to see if you can play first.

I think if it were me and my son, I'd go there in person and look the guy in the eye and ask him what the heck we were supposed to do now. I would want to know how he knows so much about my son that he's already sure he doesn't want him. And I'd wonder who exactly was going to take my son's money so quickly, that he could afford to lose him right away even.

Lots of people who find it easy to make phone calls or send e-mails or such find out it's not so easy when the person is sitting right across from them.

I tend to think this is more to the despicable than the honorable. Someone is putting themselves first at the expense of a bunch of innocent young guys who now have very limited if any options. And if the AD is backing this play, it merits all of us doing what we can to steer kids away from a program where a culture like that is in place.

Those are good points you raise and I hadn't considered some of them.

I wasn't looking at it like the coach was condemning the abilities of the signed kids, but rather that he wanted to bring in his own guys and start clean. If these are his feelings, it is better to tell them now than wait till the fall imho.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
I'm sorry but it isn't the least bit honorable. It is in fact despicable. He took a coaching job and the NLI's came along with it. He's screwing kids in order to make it "easier" for himself. That is neither a good nor an honorable coach. He isn't offering to honor the commitment for a year, he's legally bound to honor it and he's trying to get out of it any way he can.

Do you think this new-hire JUCO coach is acting independently, without the complete blessing of the folks who hired him?

I don't.

In fact, I bet he laid this plan out during his interviews, and it was exactly what they were looking for.

My point is, I seriously doubt that UNLV's expectation is "you come in here and honor the existing commitments and make the best of it". If that makes him despicable, then OK, he's despicable. But the guy who sat there saying "I'm gonna turn this program around by just coaching these kids better" didn't get the job.

How would this being consistent with the desires of the AD, etc. make it any less despicable? It just spreads the stench. Sometimes there's right and there's wrong. This is wrong. Please don't try to use the "this is a business" explanation. Good businesses have integrity, poor businesses make a splash and eventually are undermined by their lack of integrity.

I can understand what Pat Murphy did at Arizona State. I don't like it one bit, but every player who went there knew exactly what they were getting into beforehand or should have known. I don't consider that despicable. Now if when he first took over the program he dumped players who had NLI's then yes that was despicable.

A coach who takes over a program that has commitments to players is morally and ethically bound to honor those agreements to the fullest. That means giving every player on scholarship the roster spot they've earned and working from there to upgrade the program.

As far as the MLB contracts go every player and coach goes into that process with the full knowledge that NLI's do not apply to professional contracts and that the player isn't agreeing to taking a scholarship if he gets a better offer from an MLB team.

It really is time for the National Collegiate Association against Athletes to do something meaningful and penalize some coaches and athletic departments as opposed to students, for their lack of ethics and complete disregard for the student athletes.

quote:

A coach who takes over a program that has commitments to players is morally and ethically bound to honor those agreements to the fullest. That means giving every player on scholarship the roster spot they've earned and working from there to upgrade the program.

CADad,
I think you have summarized the issue in a particularly poignant and accurate way.
In my view, what this coach is doing is permissible and in accordance with NCAA rules and NLI rules.
That was the point of my prior post.
Whether it is moral and ethical is a separate question and "judgment"from whether it follows the rules.

If I were your son, or anyone in this situation I would go right up to Chambers and say. " I am not going to play for your team?, ok well dam right you are going to honor my monies for the year " I would tell him to stick it.. I can tell you Chambers is one of the most arrogant, cocky, people I have ever met.. He is an outright jerk.

And what is he going to do? He is going to parade all of his boys from CCSN into UNLV, and play the pipeline game with his buddies at CCSN by having them now have a boost in recruiting by playing the "We have great connections at UNLV" game.. Take the year, get your son's education paid for, and then sign on at a new school and stick it up Chambers *** everytime he plays him..

What a low life..

CADad - I can see your arguments. What none of us know is why the other coach was fired? If they fired him because they did not like his recruiting philosophies, then of course they are going to want the new guy to bring his own guys in.

It may be distasteful, but I don't see the villains here. No one is guaranteed anything (other than money) by signing an NLI. They are honoring the money part of it and that isd all they are obligated to do.

I think parents go too far in assuming what an NLI means. Most have no idea that three other kids also signed an NLI, who were just as decorated and acclaimed in high school and who all play their son's position. It's a cruel world out there and this is what you get. One year of money is the only guarantee.

infielddad,
True, however I don't believe it is within the intent of the NLI rules in the least. It won't happen but the NCAA really does need to step in and challenge this process.

CD,
It is all they are legally obligated to do in the strictest interpretation of the contract. However, I do believe that a good enough lawyer could show that there are damages accruing to the player as a result of this practice. There is more to the agreement between the player and the school than the contract.

Do you see who the victims are? Do you really think there are victims without villains? This isn't a natural disaster.

quote:

Do you see who the victims are? Do you really think there are victims without villains?

Who is the victim? The kid who is told now or the kid who is told after fall tryouts?

I would advise against lamenting the victimhood game. It is a temporary setback. Time is better spent forming a new plan and executing it.

.
Observations...(as we know the program and the players well...

1. Empathy...Extreme for the families and players whose journey's/dreams were changed/dashed/midtream arguably in some of these cases without personal cause, or even a look/chance. I know it's a business but I care. Yes, it is an extreme competitve environment, if so then let me have a fair and straight up chance to compete...I get it and I lose, I can move on. All I want is a chance. Beyond that, Having watched that situation for the last 5 years, and without going into detail, there may be some scorched earth likley happening that is a tad beyond what a family player might normally see with a coaching change.

2. Practicalities...DII, DII, NAIA JC are all option. For the younger CA players...CA JC's are non scholarship, so spots are most often by competition and open, DI layers are oten welcome and appreciated, True Di's should have no trouble at least making most JC teams. I would also go back to the schools that had taken an interest out of HS and revisit those options, see if there are still opening. Many of those players are from NV so they can look to NV Jc's as the new caoch will no doubt fill the roster with his JC kids and they will be looking for replacements.

3. Lessons...Many, many here. Not the least of which is NEVER assume anything. Have plan B in the back pocket always, if not in place at least in the head. In our experience about the only thing you can trust is your work ethic, your attitude, your effort...all the rest is always a moving target...hold up your end, and be ready when situations change...and expect them to. They will.

44
.

The kid who had a commitment from the school that isn't going to be honored is the victim, and no simply providing the money and not the roster spot is not honoring the commitment.

I'm not lamenting the victimhood game, I'm simply pointing out that there are villains in this.

The closest I come to this is knowing a family whose kid was smart enough to leave CSN a season ago. Obviously the kids who are actually in this situation have to look at what is important to them and how to make the best of a bad situation.

CADad,
When I was in college a very long time ago, the basketball team had a player on scholarship and the head coach clearly decided by that kid's sophomore year he was not wanted.
I watched day in and day out how that very, very successful head coach went about the process of getting the player to quit.That left an image.
There are college coaches who do it now in every sport including baseball. My sense is that the new UNLV coach could have taken that route with all the new recruits. He apparently has not chosen to do that. Do I admire and commend him for that? Nope.
Don't admire his ethics and morals either.
Would I want my son to be recruited and play for him? No.
But, being realistic, there are going to be players and their parents standing in line to be recruited and accept a scholarship at UNLV, just as there were at ASU and other schools.
Would I want my son to run a program in that fashion if he every gets a chance? No.
Would I want my son to learn from that type of situation? Yes..but from a distance and from a Head Coach who takes a different approach.
Frankly, I think the player who gets drafted and signs and turns his back on the NLI is doing the same thing to the coach who recruited him...doing what is best for me. Permissible but what about the ethics...he made a commitment until a better one came along.
Even if it isn't the same, how about the player who signs the NLI, takes his scholarship and puts in about 25% of the effort in the classroom or most of his time doing video games and is ineligible in the Spring. Frequent occurrence when you are dealing with 18-19 year old student athletes.

infielddad,
Agree about the kid who dogs it in the classroom, although sometimes that is simply lack of maturity and something that they eventually overcome.

As far as the MLB part goes I think that it is well understood by both coaches and players that the NLI is not a commitment relative to a professional contract. The coaches understand they are taking their chances in that arena. I don't believe there's an ethical issue there unless a player makes a commitment to play at the school and not sign in order to get a scholarship. I doubt that happens often if at all.

Like I said previously, once it was well established I didn't see anything ethically wrong with what Pat Murphy did relative to not renewing scholarships at Arizona State. I didn't like it one bit, but everyone involved knew how he operated going into the process and the risks they were taking.

Rob Kremer's son and mine were both at a Pepperdine camp a few years back and Rodriguez told everyone that he honored scholarships for 4 years if the player put in the effort on the field and in the classroom. He figured that if the player wasn't good enough despite putting in the effort then it was poor recruiting on his part and that he had an ethical obligation to the player. They did have a "housecleaning" a couple years ago so I don't know if he's stuck to that approach, but I can tell you that Rob and I were both quite impressed by what he told us at the time.

Did a bit of research on the hiring.
New coach is being paid about $25,000 more per year than the former coach. Salary is over $100,000.
Photos show him with the AD sitting right next to him.
Finally, he is committing to Omaha and this is his view on recruiting:

"Recruiting is always toward the forefront of every new coach’s mind. This is no different with Chambers, as he wants to keep the top local talent in Las Vegas.

“You have to get players,” Chambers said. “Hopefully this doesn’t sound arrogant, but the best players in town have been wearing (CSN) yellow as freshmen and sophomores. We need to get the best players in town here and then we’ll fill in with out-of-state guys. But you have to start at home with the top players, and that’s going to get the fans excited and it’s going to get people in the seats. I believe that with the locals and some out-of-state guys, we can do this thing.”

The expectations are high, considering the strong young pitching UNLV has and Chambers’ credentials. Chambers is ready to take them head-on.

“You don’t take any job with the expectation that you can’t win,” Chambers said. ”Yeah, I think we can win, and I think we’re going to win a lot faster than people think we are.”

Best players are at his JC program and we are going to "win a lot faster than people think we are."
All of this makes it seem pretty clear he has players identified to bring to the program and he is making spots for them and is being paid handsomely to do so, by an AD who supports what he is doing.

That is the unfortunate part of the NCAA rules.IF a coach cuts you, you should be able to transfer without sitting out a year.The protection isn't there for the player. The coaches have the power, and many coaches cut scholarships.Happens every year, and to good players.

There needs to be in place a rule that if a new coach comes in and cuts you, you can transfer without penalty.

You can talk about integrity, you can talk about what is right, these coaches are suppose to win,(SUPPOSE).You must understand this.D1 baseball is not for the faint of heart that much I can say for sure.

Players can do all they can do, work hard, play hard and still get cut.It is sad, but its a reality.

I don't think a drafted player signing with the MLB is anything close to this situation. Every college coach who recruits a high round draftable player knows it. He is well aware the kid will be drafted and he may never see him on campus but he decides to offer him a scholarship anyway.

The kids losing their opportunities at UNLV had no idea this coach was going to choose not to let them play.

quote:

Rob Kremer's son and mine were both at a Pepperdine camp a few years back and Rodriguez told everyone that he honored scholarships for 4 years if the player put in the effort on the field and in the classroom. He figured that if the player wasn't good enough despite putting in the effort then it was poor recruiting on his part and that he had an ethical obligation to the player. They did have a "housecleaning" a couple years ago so I don't know if he's stuck to that approach, but I can tell you that Rob and I were both quite impressed by what he told us at the time.

I agree. Those comments are impressive. I wonder how many players...and parents heard and appreciated the words after "honored the scholarship for 4 years."
Clearly, they did clean house after the 2009 season.
The program is not where it was just 2-3 years ago.
My bet is he is under considerable pressure to get things turned around.
After their 2009 housecleaning, I wonder if he would make the same comments.
My hope is he would.
The UNLV situation seems to suggest that if the team isn't winning, the AD, the Administration and financial backers at some schools might not give a darn about morals and ethics and what impresses parents or makes them feel good.
Fans in the seats, $$$ into the program, and winning is what DI college athletics is about.

thanks so much,

after reading these posts It occurred to me that everyone would like to know what the AD did right after the release of Buddy G.(not intentional just did not enter my mind)

Per the parent after Buddy G. was released the AD called this specific recruit asap and said "do not worry your scholly and spot are fine. We love you as a student athlete. Stick with us as this will be good." he was doing damage control and delaying the inevitable.

Just found out about a Senior JC guy at UNLV as well, will provide info soon.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
“You have to get players,” Chambers said. “Hopefully this doesn’t sound arrogant, but the best players in town have been wearing (CSN) yellow as freshmen and sophomores. We need to get the best players in town here and then we’ll fill in with out-of-state guys.

Huh oh. The morality question aside, this is kind of an indication that this dude's vision is too limited to his own fish bowl. That's going to cost him.

Back to morality and victimhood...When you participate in high-visibility D-1 athletics, you're dancing with the big-boys because you want the visibility and the potential payoff. That's a risk-reward equation that you are signing up for. The evidence is the fact that contracts are even necessary.

So I retract my original claim that coach is acting "honorable". There's not a questions of honor or dishoner here; only whether people are complying to the terms of their agreements. And that needs to be the expectation of both parties.

Think of the one year tuition as nothing more than a termination liability. Then pull up them big-boy pants and move on. That's the nature of the game you were playing in.

quote:

The program is not where it was just 2-3 years ago.
My bet is he is under considerable pressure to get things turned around.
After their 2009 housecleaning, I wonder if he would make the same comments.
My hope is he would.

I am not singling out any school, but I bet it will change as pressure to win continues in any program.Lots of promises are broken.If your job depends on it.Programs that use to promise to never take away schollys have done so.

quote:

“You have to get players,” Chambers said. “Hopefully this doesn’t sound arrogant, but the best players in town have been wearing (CSN) yellow as freshmen and sophomores.

That sounds very arrogant and that indeed sounds to me how he got the job. That JUCO where he coached, along with Bryce Harper had umpteen guys drafted. He tells them that he'll recruit the same type of guys (if not the same guys) to UNLV. Pretty easy sales job and they bought it.

I agree that he may have a myopic view of things and may be looking at troubles of his own down the road. I would suggest some damage has already occurred to his program by this very discussion on the hsbbweb.