Some of the coaches today would sell out their own mother if in their mind it helped them win a baseball game! The problem is that by not putting a stop to the practice of "running players off" & mistreating players the athletic department is showing support for this behavior. It sounds like some of the coaches need a class in ethics & how you treat people.
For players that are going to be freshmen this year you may want to look into a prep school for one year. Those kids that have already started college are really in a bind and have few options.
With posts like these above, and the power of the forums on this website, we can start to define the need for very careful planning - unfortunately there are always going to be obstacles we didnot anticpate. And entirely unfair.
Ultimately I would look to the people who create the rules (NCAA) - as well as the administration at the schools themselves. It speaks volumes as to the need for better governance; inequities like this only hurt the kids, who are what out schools are supposed to serve. Not the other way around.
No doubt this post should be a must read for all considering any future in colege ball. I doubt if anything will change, but at least everyone has had another opportunity to learn through the unforunate example of some. My best wishes for all involved - and hopefully there is a coach out there who can help in some small way.
Ultimately I would look to the people who create the rules (NCAA) - as well as the administration at the schools themselves. It speaks volumes as to the need for better governance; inequities like this only hurt the kids, who are what out schools are supposed to serve. Not the other way around.
No doubt this post should be a must read for all considering any future in colege ball. I doubt if anything will change, but at least everyone has had another opportunity to learn through the unforunate example of some. My best wishes for all involved - and hopefully there is a coach out there who can help in some small way.
cbg,
it may be that some would. I would expect that the DI college coaches are like every aspect of our society. Many are really good at what they do, some love what they do, some are very poor at what they do, some hate what they do, some are honest to a fault, some are the opposite.
The issue for parents and especially players is how do we know and find out which is which.
I again will reiterate that, for me, this is a risk reward analysis. If your son wants to play on ESPN in Omaha and some coach recruits him with that as a goal, he needs to be able to perform and perform at the highest level on a constant basis. Then he needs to get better because they recruit new guys every year to be and get better.
If a player performs and produces at the highest levels and gets better each year, he mitigates the risk that exists when the coach has a focus on winning, not his players. He cannot remove the risk because if he is not drafted and signed as a junior, no matter how well he performs, we are seeing some coaches yank the scholarship when they are seniors, knowing they have no options.
To the extent players are recruited to top 40-50 programs and they don't do the work or don't produce and get better, the chances these new rules could impact them become real.
These are the players at risk for coaches who might play by the "rules" without regard for ethics or players.
wraggarm, here is your link:
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/co...i/nli/nli+provisions
it may be that some would. I would expect that the DI college coaches are like every aspect of our society. Many are really good at what they do, some love what they do, some are very poor at what they do, some hate what they do, some are honest to a fault, some are the opposite.
The issue for parents and especially players is how do we know and find out which is which.
I again will reiterate that, for me, this is a risk reward analysis. If your son wants to play on ESPN in Omaha and some coach recruits him with that as a goal, he needs to be able to perform and perform at the highest level on a constant basis. Then he needs to get better because they recruit new guys every year to be and get better.
If a player performs and produces at the highest levels and gets better each year, he mitigates the risk that exists when the coach has a focus on winning, not his players. He cannot remove the risk because if he is not drafted and signed as a junior, no matter how well he performs, we are seeing some coaches yank the scholarship when they are seniors, knowing they have no options.
To the extent players are recruited to top 40-50 programs and they don't do the work or don't produce and get better, the chances these new rules could impact them become real.
These are the players at risk for coaches who might play by the "rules" without regard for ethics or players.
wraggarm, here is your link:
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/co...i/nli/nli+provisions
Very informative, thank you
Everyone says College baseball is a business and you have to know that before making your college choice. I would say my son has seen all the different aspects of recruiting as he saw 3 schools in 3 years and signed with a fourth before going pro in this years draft.
Coming out of High school was son told by College in Conference USA many things that were just down right untruths to be nice(getting new field when they don't have one,would not recruit another 1st baseman until junior year,you would get x amount of scholarship money for academics only to have $3500 a year pulled after our son was on campus and this was the same with all incoming freshman who qualified). We learned the hard way honesty matters when your sons future is at stake and baseball IS an Important part of all these guys lives.This Coach didn't care about any player only about his career and it seems that no players presently at this school have been very happy.
2nd school my son attended when he decided to transfer had the most honorable coach we have dealt with and just a Supreme individual. This coach told our son he was very much needed but could not guarantee he could fit him on his 35 man roster because he already had 35 and he would not cut a player even though he knew he had a bunch that could not play at this school. He had one player transfer in summer and quickly called us. Although this school didn't work out not because of the coach but our son's attendance in the classroom I still knew we were dealing with someone of the highest integrity and great care for ALL of his players.
Our son transferred to a JUCO for 3rd year and found this coach to also be a great person as well as a coach and completely turned everything around as far as grades and baseball. This coach is also very upfront with players and treats his players with respect.
Being recruited heavily from many D1 schools across the South as a JUCO player we realized the advantages of JUCO baseball as in many cases you get a chance to be seen by colleges and pros alike. Our son signed with his hometown dream school for reasons other than the amount of scholarship as he had much higher offers from other schools. The Coaches at this SEC school were extremely professional and let our son know he was wanted and needed but the dream of Professional baseball after 3 schools in 3 years was to hard to pass up.
I am sorry that I have rambled on but with our experience the Coach you want to play for should have the best interest in all of his players or the experience often is a disaster. Doing it all over again I would not let our son sign with someone we were not totally confident in and had not heard good things about. The decision you make out of High School is so important you can not afford to make mistakes so be careful. If the Coach doesn't want you for any reason swallow your disappointment and Move On as hanging around will not be to your advantage.
Integrity is a great personal trait some coaches need to learn and it seems this coach hasn't learned this lesson yet as he is negatively effecting players lives who have made previous commitments .
As far as players going pro and using schools I personally believe there are 2 decisions each player makes College and Pro and they are not connected. Coaches leave programs for their Dream school and players need to do what they feel is right for them .
Coming out of High school was son told by College in Conference USA many things that were just down right untruths to be nice(getting new field when they don't have one,would not recruit another 1st baseman until junior year,you would get x amount of scholarship money for academics only to have $3500 a year pulled after our son was on campus and this was the same with all incoming freshman who qualified). We learned the hard way honesty matters when your sons future is at stake and baseball IS an Important part of all these guys lives.This Coach didn't care about any player only about his career and it seems that no players presently at this school have been very happy.
2nd school my son attended when he decided to transfer had the most honorable coach we have dealt with and just a Supreme individual. This coach told our son he was very much needed but could not guarantee he could fit him on his 35 man roster because he already had 35 and he would not cut a player even though he knew he had a bunch that could not play at this school. He had one player transfer in summer and quickly called us. Although this school didn't work out not because of the coach but our son's attendance in the classroom I still knew we were dealing with someone of the highest integrity and great care for ALL of his players.
Our son transferred to a JUCO for 3rd year and found this coach to also be a great person as well as a coach and completely turned everything around as far as grades and baseball. This coach is also very upfront with players and treats his players with respect.
Being recruited heavily from many D1 schools across the South as a JUCO player we realized the advantages of JUCO baseball as in many cases you get a chance to be seen by colleges and pros alike. Our son signed with his hometown dream school for reasons other than the amount of scholarship as he had much higher offers from other schools. The Coaches at this SEC school were extremely professional and let our son know he was wanted and needed but the dream of Professional baseball after 3 schools in 3 years was to hard to pass up.
I am sorry that I have rambled on but with our experience the Coach you want to play for should have the best interest in all of his players or the experience often is a disaster. Doing it all over again I would not let our son sign with someone we were not totally confident in and had not heard good things about. The decision you make out of High School is so important you can not afford to make mistakes so be careful. If the Coach doesn't want you for any reason swallow your disappointment and Move On as hanging around will not be to your advantage.
Integrity is a great personal trait some coaches need to learn and it seems this coach hasn't learned this lesson yet as he is negatively effecting players lives who have made previous commitments .
As far as players going pro and using schools I personally believe there are 2 decisions each player makes College and Pro and they are not connected. Coaches leave programs for their Dream school and players need to do what they feel is right for them .
About the two decisions a player has to make, they are not seperate but very much related. IMO.
How often does a player tell Coach, I want to come play at your school more than anything (I really mean more than anything except to play pro ball). Spring comes and a few scouts show up and the parents are asking about advisors, pros and cons of college vs pro. How many college players tell coaches they will leave if drafted regardless and then stay, how many say they will come and don't. Can't imagine a coach trying to balance it all out, the good ones do, the others get stuck. Most coaches allow that choice of the college player to stay or leave.
I understand lots of this, have had a son go through the same motions out of HS. If he gave the coaches a number to not go and it was met, they had no problem, if he gave them a number and then took way less, they would have been pretty upset. I don't blame a player for going pro if he gets what he wants and there are lots of players who turn down lots of money to play college ball because THAT is what they really want to do. The problem is, many of our kids don't really know what they want and the bad NCAA allows them that choice to do as they wish.
We seem to hold those coaches to a higher standard, but we ourselves feel that our players deserve every opportunity and every choice available without realizing how their decision might affect others. I am not taking sides, each has it's own perogatives and priorities.
As much as we work hard helping sons to find the right fit, there are many coaches who work harder at the same. I can't imagine how hard it must be, to find the right player, get him to sign, then having to convince him not to go pro and to come to his program. Imagine having 4-5 players you have to concentrate on that goal for a year, ecruit, run a team and also have to put up with lots of other stuff, most don't get paid well enough to do that, others do. Yes coaches leave, that is not going to stop, and players also don't come to campus when expected for whatever reason, that's not going to stop either.
What we all have to do (and I have been there done that) is realize that this is the first step in the baseball business world. The higher you move up the ladder, the higher business only screams out at you. We don't realize this because these players are our children, if you take a step back and look at it without being a parent, it will help you to understand it much better.
As far as the NCAA "protecting" players, there seems to be a negative that they need to do a better job. They tried that, cutting rosters and taking away the play right away transfer rule, even forced coaches to a scholarship minimum, yet people still say they don't do a good job at "protecting" players. They allow your sons the choice to choose between college or pro, just as they allow the coaches to make choices. The NCAA is what it is, accept that they have a job to "protect" their schools as well players and that's half the battle.
How often does a player tell Coach, I want to come play at your school more than anything (I really mean more than anything except to play pro ball). Spring comes and a few scouts show up and the parents are asking about advisors, pros and cons of college vs pro. How many college players tell coaches they will leave if drafted regardless and then stay, how many say they will come and don't. Can't imagine a coach trying to balance it all out, the good ones do, the others get stuck. Most coaches allow that choice of the college player to stay or leave.
I understand lots of this, have had a son go through the same motions out of HS. If he gave the coaches a number to not go and it was met, they had no problem, if he gave them a number and then took way less, they would have been pretty upset. I don't blame a player for going pro if he gets what he wants and there are lots of players who turn down lots of money to play college ball because THAT is what they really want to do. The problem is, many of our kids don't really know what they want and the bad NCAA allows them that choice to do as they wish.
We seem to hold those coaches to a higher standard, but we ourselves feel that our players deserve every opportunity and every choice available without realizing how their decision might affect others. I am not taking sides, each has it's own perogatives and priorities.
As much as we work hard helping sons to find the right fit, there are many coaches who work harder at the same. I can't imagine how hard it must be, to find the right player, get him to sign, then having to convince him not to go pro and to come to his program. Imagine having 4-5 players you have to concentrate on that goal for a year, ecruit, run a team and also have to put up with lots of other stuff, most don't get paid well enough to do that, others do. Yes coaches leave, that is not going to stop, and players also don't come to campus when expected for whatever reason, that's not going to stop either.
What we all have to do (and I have been there done that) is realize that this is the first step in the baseball business world. The higher you move up the ladder, the higher business only screams out at you. We don't realize this because these players are our children, if you take a step back and look at it without being a parent, it will help you to understand it much better.
As far as the NCAA "protecting" players, there seems to be a negative that they need to do a better job. They tried that, cutting rosters and taking away the play right away transfer rule, even forced coaches to a scholarship minimum, yet people still say they don't do a good job at "protecting" players. They allow your sons the choice to choose between college or pro, just as they allow the coaches to make choices. The NCAA is what it is, accept that they have a job to "protect" their schools as well players and that's half the battle.
With all due respect TPM, the player I was talking about can't go to a JC - he's already used up his eligibility there. You seem to be bent on discussing the pro side of things, I and I think many others here are discussing the overwhelming majority of students who go pro in something other than sports (I love that John Wooden clip). I agree wholeheartedly with you on the NCAA not protecting the student.
The player I know is no slouch. He was his JC team's MVP and Coach's award winner. I would guess a pre-season All American for California JC. (If I knew where to look that up I would).
My problem with this coach and this situation is that he and his administration has done wrong by this young man. The admin new they were goign to cut Coach Goldsmith a long time ago, and I would guess that they have been licking thier chops to hire this coach for months if not years. Why did they wait until now (so late in the game) to let these kids know that they would not have a home?? School has been out for weeks- weeks that could have been spent finding a new place to play.
I understand that kids get cut all the time, but being a new coach, have a talk, face to face, (not over the phone) and give him and all other returning players the opportunity to say - yes I want to try out or no I don't. Then if you're that good of a coach, call your many friends in the coaching world and find an option for the ones who don't. They may or may not take the opportunity, but at least you have given it a shot at this point. It's the students that have invested their time, their loyalty and their money in the school.
Just because these things happen in schools, and that it is a business doesn't make it right.
I always tell my kids to learn from situations where someone in charge makes a bad decision or handles things inappropriately. It teaches grace and humility, and what not to do as much as what to do.
My player will be fine because he is tough(and no - he's not mine, but I know him and his parents) but shake my head over the situation. I just hope he finds somewhere to play, and he has his best year ever.
The player I know is no slouch. He was his JC team's MVP and Coach's award winner. I would guess a pre-season All American for California JC. (If I knew where to look that up I would).
My problem with this coach and this situation is that he and his administration has done wrong by this young man. The admin new they were goign to cut Coach Goldsmith a long time ago, and I would guess that they have been licking thier chops to hire this coach for months if not years. Why did they wait until now (so late in the game) to let these kids know that they would not have a home?? School has been out for weeks- weeks that could have been spent finding a new place to play.
I understand that kids get cut all the time, but being a new coach, have a talk, face to face, (not over the phone) and give him and all other returning players the opportunity to say - yes I want to try out or no I don't. Then if you're that good of a coach, call your many friends in the coaching world and find an option for the ones who don't. They may or may not take the opportunity, but at least you have given it a shot at this point. It's the students that have invested their time, their loyalty and their money in the school.
Just because these things happen in schools, and that it is a business doesn't make it right.
I always tell my kids to learn from situations where someone in charge makes a bad decision or handles things inappropriately. It teaches grace and humility, and what not to do as much as what to do.
My player will be fine because he is tough(and no - he's not mine, but I know him and his parents) but shake my head over the situation. I just hope he finds somewhere to play, and he has his best year ever.
quote:Originally posted by mikamom:
Just because these things happen in schools, and that it is a business doesn't make it right.
TPM: We would have to agree to diasagree on this being to seperate decisions as first hand I can tell you they are. Deciding on a college, coaches try to sign you for the least amount they can and players have to decide upon the schools well before knowing whether they are even going to be drafted.Deciding on College at least by what I have read you say is by "fit" not money. Most say choose the school depending on where you feel most comfortable that goes for the pro decision too. Pro teams loaded at your position with High signing bonuses are not necessarily best choice for the player. Every player has an individual choice to be made at the time it is presented. The amount of money you sign for or scholarship money you take should not be the basis for your decision. It may work for one but not for another. It is tough business and only the player can make decision.No way can a player honestly tell a college coach what they are doing unless they are for sure so you can only make one decision at a time. The college decision comes before the draft most of the time so until you know your situation its tough to decide your future.Everything worked out the way your son had it planned and that is GREAT and I hope he reaches his every dream but everyone doesnt have the same experience.
quote:My problem with this coach and this situation is that he and his administration has done wrong by this young man. The admin new they were goign to cut Coach Goldsmith a long time ago, and I would guess that they have been licking thier chops to hire this coach for months if not years. Why did they wait until now (so late in the game) to let these kids know that they would not have a home?? School has been out for weeks- weeks that could have been spent finding a new place to play.
I would be surprised if there is any significant disagreement with these views and feelings. As I posted earlier, my view is the responsibility for these student/athletes recruited to UNLV is with the AD and the President/Administration.
Will anything that gets posted on this site change the way Tim Chambers is reported to be handling these issues? I have my doubts they will, but hope and optimism springs eternal.
The main reason to have this discussion with great input from people like you is to give the impacted players some ideas for options and for those who read this site and have HS players to have better insight into the recruiting process. This thread can also provide some ideas about what to do and how to help players make good choices, as well as to know what players need to do on the field, in the classroom and in the weight room once they have made them.
As CD,I think, posted earlier, if others read this thread and it helps them make better and informed choices, with better results, the thread has achieved a very good purpose.
I don't think Coach Chambers cares what we think of him, however, and nothing I or anyone writes about his business practices is going to change the way he is doing things, WITH the FULL SUPPORT OF THE AD and PRESIDENT of UNLV.
Right on infielddad.
quote:I don't think Coach Chambers cares what we think of him, however, and nothing I or anyone writes about his business practices is going to change the way he is doing things, WITH the FULL SUPPORT OF THE AD and PRESIDENT of UNLV.
You make a good point. I'll tell a story remotely, remotely related but to further illustrate this point about responsibility....
In the 50's, the NFL was still in its early stages and stadiums and fields were not like they are today. They could play an exhibition at some remote field off the beaten path for example. Such was the case with the Cleveland Browns coached by the legendary Paul Brown. The bus driver got the team lost on their way to the field and knowing Brown's temper, tried to profusely apologize for getting them there past the scheduled arrival time. Without missing a beat and calm tone of voice, Brown told the driver "I am not upset with you, I am upset with the person who hired you!"
How does that relate?
Seriously, people can direct their feelings toward this coach and with justification, but at the end of the day it is precisely as infielddad has stated. The people who are responsible here are the ones who hired the coach and are giving him carte blanche authority to act this way. They are the NCAA or at the bare minimum, members thereof.
TPM a player opting for the draft has nothing to do with this situation at all. Your son's situation has nothing to do with this situation at all. First of all a PG 10 with a mid 90's fastball is not going to have his scholley pulled. And he didnt. I fail to see any correllation between players opting for the draft out of hs and college coaches telling kids two months before school starts "If you come you will not be on the team."
College coaches over recruit to plan for the draft. They sign and get verbals from more players than they have room for in order to absorb the loss's from the draft. They run into problems when current players projected to get drafted do not get drafted or projected to go higher in the draft fall to much later in the draft. The players that should always be safe in these situations are the ones that have not yet been given the opportunity to prove their worth to the program. The players that have turned down other opportunities in order to sign with that school they are getting ready to attend. In other words the guys that are 2 months away from coming to school that signed an NLI and were recruited to attend that school.
Why they should be punished because some kid decided to go in the draft is beyond my understanding. You are trying to use your sons situation to make points in this discussion and it simply is apples to grape fruits. The top tier stud recruit PG 10 big time arm is not going to be told dont come.
What good is an NLI , what good is a man's word , what good is any of this if there is no character behind it?
How about this. You put yourself in those parents shoes and be honest with yourself. Your son has worked his butt off his entire life to reach his dream of playing college baseball. He gets to the point where he is recruited by college programs. He turns down other offers and accepts an offer from UNLV. He signs and NLI. He goes through the application process and is accepted to school. You apply for all of your financial aid. He buys all the UNLV gear and everyone in town is excited for him and his accomplishment. He is two months away from realizing his dream. He and your entire family are excited about his new journey and looking forward to him starting it. And then he gets a phone call two months before school starts. "Sorry but you can come to school but you wont be on the team."
Now you put yourself in that situation and you tell me thats right? If you can fine. But there is no way anyone is going to convince me that is the right way to do things and there is anything right about it. Telling current players they have no role and they would be better off making a change is one thing. Reducing scholley amounts after they have been in a program is another thing. Taking over a program and telling a couple of catchers they need to find other options and you will help them is just another thing. But doing kids like this that have never stepped foot on campus at a time like this is total BS.
The college coach does not have a 5 year clock. I wonder if this coach would have done this to his own kid? I wonder how he would feel about these practices if someone did his kid this way? I wonder how those that don't see this as total BS would feel if there kid was in this situation instead of a total stranger?
How anyone could view this any way other than pathetic is beyond me. The administration is selling out to this coach and allowing him to do whatever he wants to do to win. And the coach is selling out to win. How any coach thinks he will have the loyalty of his team through thick and thin and at the same time show no loyalty to his players including those that have signed would be laughable if it were not so pathetic.
The best programs build a program. They dont recruit a team each season and throws kids aside like rag dolls. This is simply a lack of character issue. He lacks character and its obvious to me.
I am not trying to get anyone to agree with me because I could careless if anyone agrees with my points I am making on this topic. I know when I am right and I know when something stinks. I call BS on this coach and his administration that is allowing him to do this. Just because its a business means you dont have to conduct yourself with integrity and character? Because the stakes are high you can skip on character and integrity? I have always believed those are the times when you show your integrity and your character to the utmost. Good luck to these young men.
College coaches over recruit to plan for the draft. They sign and get verbals from more players than they have room for in order to absorb the loss's from the draft. They run into problems when current players projected to get drafted do not get drafted or projected to go higher in the draft fall to much later in the draft. The players that should always be safe in these situations are the ones that have not yet been given the opportunity to prove their worth to the program. The players that have turned down other opportunities in order to sign with that school they are getting ready to attend. In other words the guys that are 2 months away from coming to school that signed an NLI and were recruited to attend that school.
Why they should be punished because some kid decided to go in the draft is beyond my understanding. You are trying to use your sons situation to make points in this discussion and it simply is apples to grape fruits. The top tier stud recruit PG 10 big time arm is not going to be told dont come.
What good is an NLI , what good is a man's word , what good is any of this if there is no character behind it?
How about this. You put yourself in those parents shoes and be honest with yourself. Your son has worked his butt off his entire life to reach his dream of playing college baseball. He gets to the point where he is recruited by college programs. He turns down other offers and accepts an offer from UNLV. He signs and NLI. He goes through the application process and is accepted to school. You apply for all of your financial aid. He buys all the UNLV gear and everyone in town is excited for him and his accomplishment. He is two months away from realizing his dream. He and your entire family are excited about his new journey and looking forward to him starting it. And then he gets a phone call two months before school starts. "Sorry but you can come to school but you wont be on the team."
Now you put yourself in that situation and you tell me thats right? If you can fine. But there is no way anyone is going to convince me that is the right way to do things and there is anything right about it. Telling current players they have no role and they would be better off making a change is one thing. Reducing scholley amounts after they have been in a program is another thing. Taking over a program and telling a couple of catchers they need to find other options and you will help them is just another thing. But doing kids like this that have never stepped foot on campus at a time like this is total BS.
The college coach does not have a 5 year clock. I wonder if this coach would have done this to his own kid? I wonder how he would feel about these practices if someone did his kid this way? I wonder how those that don't see this as total BS would feel if there kid was in this situation instead of a total stranger?
How anyone could view this any way other than pathetic is beyond me. The administration is selling out to this coach and allowing him to do whatever he wants to do to win. And the coach is selling out to win. How any coach thinks he will have the loyalty of his team through thick and thin and at the same time show no loyalty to his players including those that have signed would be laughable if it were not so pathetic.
The best programs build a program. They dont recruit a team each season and throws kids aside like rag dolls. This is simply a lack of character issue. He lacks character and its obvious to me.
I am not trying to get anyone to agree with me because I could careless if anyone agrees with my points I am making on this topic. I know when I am right and I know when something stinks. I call BS on this coach and his administration that is allowing him to do this. Just because its a business means you dont have to conduct yourself with integrity and character? Because the stakes are high you can skip on character and integrity? I have always believed those are the times when you show your integrity and your character to the utmost. Good luck to these young men.
I can understand why coaches would be incensed with a player who tells them it will take a lot to sign them away from their NLI and then sign for nearly nothing. Sometimes it is probably a kid changing his mind at the last minute, and sometimes it is a kid who used the school as a bargaining chip and when it didn't work signed anyways.
Using the NLI purely as a bargaining chip and lying to the coach about it is wrong.
More often, I think with the top players both the coach and the player realize they are going to sign professionally unless things don't work out and the program gets a status boost while the player gets the bargaining chip.
One parent told me he wanted his kid to play in college and when I passed that on people in the know had a good laugh. The kid signed very soon after the draft.
Another parent whose son had a good scholarship told me his kid was going to sign pro almost no matter what. He did. Personally I prefer the latter approach.
Using the NLI purely as a bargaining chip and lying to the coach about it is wrong.
More often, I think with the top players both the coach and the player realize they are going to sign professionally unless things don't work out and the program gets a status boost while the player gets the bargaining chip.
One parent told me he wanted his kid to play in college and when I passed that on people in the know had a good laugh. The kid signed very soon after the draft.
Another parent whose son had a good scholarship told me his kid was going to sign pro almost no matter what. He did. Personally I prefer the latter approach.
For some reason I had overlooked this thread until now.
It reminds me of a thread a few years back with UGA
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...481/m/4861095292/p/1
In that case it was over recruiting - and the running off of players prior to the season - but the concept remains the same.
1) Player signs a contractual agreement with the school.
2) School (coach) decides that they no longer want the player - before they even arrive on campus - and tell them to go away.
3) Since it is after April 1 when most colleges require you to make your college decision, player has very limited options remaining other than to go to a JC.
Imagine if it was flipped around the other way.
1) Player accepts D1 scholarship offer from UNLV - but then gets a better offer from UCLA. More money, better school.
2) Player tells UNLV to pound sand and takes the offer from UCLA.
3) UNLV finds that all of the good players are taken and they end up unable to find a player of similar skill to fill the roster spot.
Sounds sort of like this thread
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...=163108234#163108234
Most posters would tell a player that once you have signed an NLI, you should keep your word. I believe that it should go both ways - both the school and the player should make the best of the situation. I personally find this coaches action 1) Morally indefensible, 2) Completely legal under the NCAA rules and 3) a real black mark on UNLV the institution.
08
It reminds me of a thread a few years back with UGA
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...481/m/4861095292/p/1
In that case it was over recruiting - and the running off of players prior to the season - but the concept remains the same.
1) Player signs a contractual agreement with the school.
2) School (coach) decides that they no longer want the player - before they even arrive on campus - and tell them to go away.
3) Since it is after April 1 when most colleges require you to make your college decision, player has very limited options remaining other than to go to a JC.
Imagine if it was flipped around the other way.
1) Player accepts D1 scholarship offer from UNLV - but then gets a better offer from UCLA. More money, better school.
2) Player tells UNLV to pound sand and takes the offer from UCLA.
3) UNLV finds that all of the good players are taken and they end up unable to find a player of similar skill to fill the roster spot.
Sounds sort of like this thread
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...=163108234#163108234
Most posters would tell a player that once you have signed an NLI, you should keep your word. I believe that it should go both ways - both the school and the player should make the best of the situation. I personally find this coaches action 1) Morally indefensible, 2) Completely legal under the NCAA rules and 3) a real black mark on UNLV the institution.
08
After reading the FAQ's and language of the NDI's, it seems pretty clear to me that UNLV and the coach are acting ethically with respect to the NDI termination. NDI's only guarantee 1 year's scholarship in any case. (I didn't even know that before). The NDI is only an agreement between the university and the student, and does not commit the coach to even having to ask the kid what his name is.
So on the question of the coach's morality, I'm just as ready to smite him down as being a terrible person as anyone, if we could get real first-hand answers to the two following questions:
1) Does anyone know first-hand whether this coach really is not trying to get these kids placed somewhere?
2) Is it really not a clear case of whether or not this kid belongs in the program ? i.e., sometimes a kid needs to be told he doesn't belong at the next level, ASAP, wherever that's the case. This coach is bringing in a bunch of people to supposedly take this whole program to the next level. Supposedly. Maybe he just knows that the current scholly kids aren't going to be able to compete, and they just need to be told that?
So on the question of the coach's morality, I'm just as ready to smite him down as being a terrible person as anyone, if we could get real first-hand answers to the two following questions:
1) Does anyone know first-hand whether this coach really is not trying to get these kids placed somewhere?
2) Is it really not a clear case of whether or not this kid belongs in the program ? i.e., sometimes a kid needs to be told he doesn't belong at the next level, ASAP, wherever that's the case. This coach is bringing in a bunch of people to supposedly take this whole program to the next level. Supposedly. Maybe he just knows that the current scholly kids aren't going to be able to compete, and they just need to be told that?
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
cbg,
it may be that some would. I would expect that the DI college coaches are like every aspect of our society. Many are really good at what they do, some love what they do, some are very poor at what they do, some hate what they do, some are honest to a fault, some are the opposite.
The issue for parents and especially players is how do we know and find out which is which.
I again will reiterate that, for me, this is a risk reward analysis. If your son wants to play on ESPN in Omaha and some coach recruits him with that as a goal, he needs to be able to perform and perform at the highest level on a constant basis. Then he needs to get better because they recruit new guys every year to be and get better.
If a player performs and produces at the highest levels and gets better each year, he mitigates the risk that exists when the coach has a focus on winning, not his players. He cannot remove the risk because if he is not drafted and signed as a junior, no matter how well he performs, we are seeing some coaches yank the scholarship when they are seniors, knowing they have no options.
To the extent players are recruited to top 40-50 programs and they don't do the work or don't produce and get better, the chances these new rules could impact them become real.
These are the players at risk for coaches who might play by the "rules" without regard for ethics or players.
wraggarm, here is your link:
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/co...i/nli/nli+provisions
I said that SOME coaches would sell out their own mother to win a baseball game not all coaches. Yes, it is a problem with today's society and not just athletics. People feel that it is ok to say whatever one needs to say if it helps them get ahead in life. One way to solve these problems is if a few fathers would take these coaches behind the ole woodshed for a little TLC this BS would stop!
quote:One way to solve these problems is if a few fathers would take these coaches behind the ole woodshed for a little TLC this BS would stop!
Don't think so.
The way is for players not to line up and knock down the door to get into schools/play for coaches like this.
The way is for Athletic Directors and University Presidents to not hire coaches who do this and do not support this conduct.
The way is for potential recruits and their parents to be as educated and knowledgeable as possible, to not see the world of college baseball and recruiting through rose colored glasses and to be able to say no.
My expectation is UNLV will have players lined up to play when Fall practice starts. Heck, in his news conference, there were uncommitted players from his JC in the audience as he talked about the need to upgrade players and he intended to recruit uncommitted players from his JC.
I hope I am proven wrong, but I think I will be right. When you take the areas of Southern CA including Orange County, the Inland Empire and San Diego County and combine that with Southern Nevada and all of Arizona, there are vastly more DI players than DI positions, vastly more.
That is an area where HS players like Evan Longoria don't even get a college sniff, and he is not an exception.
With their ability to recruit from that area and with more lenient admissions standards, I am skeptical top quality players in significant numbers are going to say NO to this UNLV coach because he opened spots on the roster for them by this course of conduct.
Hope I am proven wrong, though.
infielddad - you have made wonderful contributions to this thread.
I guess there are many ways of analyzing this. Some could say there ought to be more regulation to prevent this from happening. Some could say there ought to be less regulation i.e., go back to the old transfer rules.
I suspect however, that if a coach wants to run kids out, he'll find a way to run them out. It seems as though you are advocating personal responsibility however. In other words, for people to conclude "You know what, if he could do that to someone elses kid, he could do that to me!"
I guess there are many ways of analyzing this. Some could say there ought to be more regulation to prevent this from happening. Some could say there ought to be less regulation i.e., go back to the old transfer rules.
I suspect however, that if a coach wants to run kids out, he'll find a way to run them out. It seems as though you are advocating personal responsibility however. In other words, for people to conclude "You know what, if he could do that to someone elses kid, he could do that to me!"
It looks like UNLV already gets a lot of HS'ers from So Cal:
Buddy Borden RHP 6-2 200 R-R Arbor View Las Vegas NV
Dillon Bryant 2B 5-10 190 R-R Orange Lutheran Orange CA
Perry Cooper LHP 6-3 220 L-L The Woodlands Woodlands TX
Keegan Dale MIF 6-2 167 L-R Martin Luther King Riverside CA
Zack Hartman IF/RHP 5-11 165 R-R Arbor View Las Vegas NV
Joey Lauria RHP 6-4 230 R-R Legacy North Las vegas NV
Kyle McNutt RHP 6-2 180 R-R East Valley Redlands CA
Brandon Rainford RHP 6-1 180 R-R Stevens Rapid City SD
Taylor Smart SS 5-9 170 R-R Tahoma Maple Valley WA
Buddy Borden RHP 6-2 200 R-R Arbor View Las Vegas NV
Dillon Bryant 2B 5-10 190 R-R Orange Lutheran Orange CA
Perry Cooper LHP 6-3 220 L-L The Woodlands Woodlands TX
Keegan Dale MIF 6-2 167 L-R Martin Luther King Riverside CA
Zack Hartman IF/RHP 5-11 165 R-R Arbor View Las Vegas NV
Joey Lauria RHP 6-4 230 R-R Legacy North Las vegas NV
Kyle McNutt RHP 6-2 180 R-R East Valley Redlands CA
Brandon Rainford RHP 6-1 180 R-R Stevens Rapid City SD
Taylor Smart SS 5-9 170 R-R Tahoma Maple Valley WA
quote:
Coming out of High school was son told by College in Conference USA many things that were just down right untruths to be nice(getting new field when they don't have one,would not recruit another 1st baseman until junior year,you would get x amount of scholarship money for academics only to have $3500 a year pulled after our son was on campus and this was the same with all incoming freshman who qualified). We learned the hard way honesty matters when your sons future is at stake and baseball IS an Important part of all these guys lives.This Coach didn't care about any player only about his career and it seems that no players presently at this school have been very happy.
Yep! It's a shame too. The school has bunches to offer student athletes. Too bad baseball hasn't been able to get a GOOD program established.
infieldad,
I don't think you'll be proven wrong.
I don't think you'll be proven wrong.
What I find interesting is how people are talking about this subject.
4-5 years ago when I and others brought this up we were chastized for being negative.
Interesting how opinions have changed.
4-5 years ago when I and others brought this up we were chastized for being negative.
Interesting how opinions have changed.
BHD it just shows you were ahead of your time.
I've noticed in many threads (especially this thread) parents of "4-2-4" players almost always come back to "trusting the coach" as the primary reason for choosing a particlular JC and the next 4 year program. Sure, programs can win with untrust worthy coaches.....but does such a situation fit your son? Only time will tell how succesful UNLV will be under its new model.
I would say the parents of 4-2-4 Juco players have experienced the mistakes made by both the players and coaches. For us we knew nothing about JUCO's before attending one. Alot of players that feel JUCO is below them probably err when signing with a D1 just because they feel it is their best option but one they hadn't researched. We have seen both sides of the coin and my number one concern as a High School parent now would be INTEGRITY of Head Coach.I would want to play for a coach that I knew cared about me as a player but more importantly as a person and some don't care whatsoever about the person.
CM I just saw it happen several times long before my son was recruited.
One guy told me his coach got upset with him while he was getting drubbed on the mound. Called time and screamed so everyone could hear that he would not have his scholly renewed.
It is important to be aware that this stuff goes on but I am not sure how you can make a 100% safe commitment. We were certainly aware when we made our choice. UNLV was my son's first choice. I learned a lot from the coordinator and was not upset when they chose a JC transfer over my son. They went on to have a disaster year and he was fired. I thought he was pretty up front and he sent some nice emails durung my son's freshman year.
Being aware can help you realize that you can move on and hopefully minimize the disruption.
One guy told me his coach got upset with him while he was getting drubbed on the mound. Called time and screamed so everyone could hear that he would not have his scholly renewed.
It is important to be aware that this stuff goes on but I am not sure how you can make a 100% safe commitment. We were certainly aware when we made our choice. UNLV was my son's first choice. I learned a lot from the coordinator and was not upset when they chose a JC transfer over my son. They went on to have a disaster year and he was fired. I thought he was pretty up front and he sent some nice emails durung my son's freshman year.
Being aware can help you realize that you can move on and hopefully minimize the disruption.
You see I don't have a problem at all once a player is in a program coaches being honest with players. In fact I believe its the way it ought to be. Instead of saying "We need you to come back next year because your going to have a big role." And the whole time doing this to several knowing your going to let them just fight it out in the fall and release the ones you dont like. Or telling them that they should seek out other opportunities. Just be honest with kids can you do that? If you dont think they can help you and you would like for them to move on then just say so. I understand this is very well.
What I have a serious problem with is telling kids that have signed an NLI that are two months from coming to school they can come but they wont be on the team. I got a serious problem with that.
If I were a college coach I would recruit the type of kids both on and off the field that I believed were winners. I would work my butt off to help them be the best they could be. I would never ask anyone to leave that showed the same loyalty and work ethic to the program that I did. If I ended up with 31 guys some years so be it. I would make sure that if I said something I could back it up. I would be up front and honest with players about their roles on the team. If they decided they couldnt handle that role I would assist them in finding another place they could play. I would want Jr's and Sr's in my program. I would want those that were not draft guys to anchor my program for four years and show the other guys what it was all about. I would never dash the dreams of a kid that has never stepped foot on my campus that had signed an NLI. He would be given his opportunity that was promised to him when the signed that NLI. An opportunity.
Here is something that I think people should look at very closely when looking for a school. How many upperclassman do they have? How many four or five year Sr's do they have? How many guys have moved out of the program in the last four years? Do they enter the fall with more than the roster limit. If so how many over the roster limit? How many of those entering the fall over the limit were actually recruited to come in the fall?
Now look at the season stats. How many guys get innings on the hill? Are there 6 or 7 guys getting the vast majority of the innings? How many posistion players play? How many at bats do the bench guys get? Do the non starters get starts in mid week games? This information is easy to get from team websites.
Some coaches use mid week games to get guys opportunities and garner experience. Some coaches play the same guys in every game and rarely give others opportunities. Some coaches ride the same arms all year long rarely if ever giving other guys more than a token inning here and there.
Take a look at what happens to the players in these programs that do not have a significant role as freshman the next season. In some programs if you dont play a significant role as a freshman you never will. In others its a natural progression where guys work their way up the ladder. In other programs players who do not have a significant role as freshman are replaced by the next guy coming in the next year. And its a cycle that just keeps repeating itself.
When I say do your homework what I am talking about is do your homework on the philosophy of the program. If your son is a kid that will need to work his way up the ladder stay away from quick fix programs. If your son is looking for a place he can spend four years and develop into a SR player make sure they actually carry some SR players.
Make sure the coaches actions back up what he is saying to you. If he telling you one thing but doing something else walk away - no run away. Like I always say "Dont listen to what he is telling you watch what he is doing."
If a player goes into a situation he is well aware of but is willing to roll the dice in the hopes he can do it - No problem.
If a player is sold a sack of s@it and told it's a sack of gold - yeah I got a problem with these type of guys.
What I have a serious problem with is telling kids that have signed an NLI that are two months from coming to school they can come but they wont be on the team. I got a serious problem with that.
If I were a college coach I would recruit the type of kids both on and off the field that I believed were winners. I would work my butt off to help them be the best they could be. I would never ask anyone to leave that showed the same loyalty and work ethic to the program that I did. If I ended up with 31 guys some years so be it. I would make sure that if I said something I could back it up. I would be up front and honest with players about their roles on the team. If they decided they couldnt handle that role I would assist them in finding another place they could play. I would want Jr's and Sr's in my program. I would want those that were not draft guys to anchor my program for four years and show the other guys what it was all about. I would never dash the dreams of a kid that has never stepped foot on my campus that had signed an NLI. He would be given his opportunity that was promised to him when the signed that NLI. An opportunity.
Here is something that I think people should look at very closely when looking for a school. How many upperclassman do they have? How many four or five year Sr's do they have? How many guys have moved out of the program in the last four years? Do they enter the fall with more than the roster limit. If so how many over the roster limit? How many of those entering the fall over the limit were actually recruited to come in the fall?
Now look at the season stats. How many guys get innings on the hill? Are there 6 or 7 guys getting the vast majority of the innings? How many posistion players play? How many at bats do the bench guys get? Do the non starters get starts in mid week games? This information is easy to get from team websites.
Some coaches use mid week games to get guys opportunities and garner experience. Some coaches play the same guys in every game and rarely give others opportunities. Some coaches ride the same arms all year long rarely if ever giving other guys more than a token inning here and there.
Take a look at what happens to the players in these programs that do not have a significant role as freshman the next season. In some programs if you dont play a significant role as a freshman you never will. In others its a natural progression where guys work their way up the ladder. In other programs players who do not have a significant role as freshman are replaced by the next guy coming in the next year. And its a cycle that just keeps repeating itself.
When I say do your homework what I am talking about is do your homework on the philosophy of the program. If your son is a kid that will need to work his way up the ladder stay away from quick fix programs. If your son is looking for a place he can spend four years and develop into a SR player make sure they actually carry some SR players.
Make sure the coaches actions back up what he is saying to you. If he telling you one thing but doing something else walk away - no run away. Like I always say "Dont listen to what he is telling you watch what he is doing."
If a player goes into a situation he is well aware of but is willing to roll the dice in the hopes he can do it - No problem.
If a player is sold a sack of s@it and told it's a sack of gold - yeah I got a problem with these type of guys.
As a coach I would want my players to see me as a mentor that will be there for them to call years after they have left my program. To be a mentor and teach not only baseball lessons but life lessons you have care about the well being of your players. The UNLV coach obviously doesn't care about his players well being or freshman NLI recruits so its best to go another route as sad as this may seem. Its hard to be excited about a school and program to only have it jerked away right before entering college but it is better to have this happen now than after you make friends and realize your not in this coaches plans.
I put a call in to get a recruits story. This player did find out saturday morning and went to play a game that day. He told his team mates and coaches the story as told in this blog. He most likely will be going to a JC. The coach from his team and the opposing team were quite angry. As I was just told both coaches are going to try and find this kid a place to fit in for school/play. Also both coaches expressed that they would not recommend players to this coach in the future. I do find encouragement in the fact that about 90% of the people on this blog are upset for the kids. For the other 10% they have different motives for COLLEGE baseball, which don't involve education first. I would say we all can learn a lesson from this, even if we all feel different about the situation. Also as just heard on the TV watching the college world series, lets all pray for Chad Jones LSU. He had a bad car accident this morning, something we all worry about as parents.
Coach May, dayam, I'm going to copy and print your last post if that's okay. As we begin the process with our 2011, your post is a powerful reminder to look in the closets and fold down the bedsheets before checking in.
Krak - You'd be wise to do just that with his previous post too. I have been on here because I know one of the existing players - but he has opened many eyes to the new recruit's side of this too. What heartache this coach has caused.
And prayers go out to the Chad Jones family from LSU.
And prayers go out to the Chad Jones family from LSU.
quote:If I were a college coach I would recruit the type of kids both on and off the field that I believed were winners. I would work my butt off to help them be the best they could be. I would never ask anyone to leave that showed the same loyalty and work ethic to the program that I did. If I ended up with 31 guys some years so be it. I would make sure that if I said something I could back it up. I would be up front and honest with players about their roles on the team. If they decided they couldnt handle that role I would assist them in finding another place they could play. I would want Jr's and Sr's in my program. I would want those that were not draft guys to anchor my program for four years and show the other guys what it was all about. I would never dash the dreams of a kid that has never stepped foot on my campus that had signed an NLI. He would be given his opportunity that was promised to him when the signed that NLI. An opportunity.
So Coach May, when are you becoming a college coach.I know a lot of players that would love to play for you.
fog, I share your sentiments! What parent wouldn't love to have their kid play for a coach like Kenny May? And not just from his take on this topic, but from the years of philosophy and advice he has shared with us all. Really good stuff.
Coach May - since my son is already cared for, could you switch to women's volleyball and coach my daughter in college?????
Coach May,
Every player and their family have recruiting nightmare stories. It doesn't matter who you are or your ability, what matters as you have stated in your post to approach the process with caution and your eyes open, which I stated. What I did find that there were coaches who were in trouble with their jobs, had a tendency to over recruit and make promises they had no intention of keeping and they were good coaches overall. I beleive that if you were a college coach you would do as you say above but not everyone is Coach May.
How would I feel if it were my player, I would be angry but also glad that I found out early on, and understand that the situation is not a good one so maybe someone did my son a favor. I would feel that way regardless of my players ability, but that is the way I look at the situation. I also didn't say that what has taken place is right, I have just presented another side to which we tend to overlook. I do truely feel badly for these players. But I am a true beleiver that all things happen for a reason, that's just how I lok at things these days.
I agree with infielddad, the coach is doing what he is allowed to do, the outrage should be against the athletic administration. Remember, the NLI states that your obligation is to the school, not the coach. The coach that signed them is gone, therefore the school has a responsibility to uphold the agreement, so why not just trash the administration? What about the conference, some conferences have guidelines, correct.
Every player and their family have recruiting nightmare stories. It doesn't matter who you are or your ability, what matters as you have stated in your post to approach the process with caution and your eyes open, which I stated. What I did find that there were coaches who were in trouble with their jobs, had a tendency to over recruit and make promises they had no intention of keeping and they were good coaches overall. I beleive that if you were a college coach you would do as you say above but not everyone is Coach May.
How would I feel if it were my player, I would be angry but also glad that I found out early on, and understand that the situation is not a good one so maybe someone did my son a favor. I would feel that way regardless of my players ability, but that is the way I look at the situation. I also didn't say that what has taken place is right, I have just presented another side to which we tend to overlook. I do truely feel badly for these players. But I am a true beleiver that all things happen for a reason, that's just how I lok at things these days.
I agree with infielddad, the coach is doing what he is allowed to do, the outrage should be against the athletic administration. Remember, the NLI states that your obligation is to the school, not the coach. The coach that signed them is gone, therefore the school has a responsibility to uphold the agreement, so why not just trash the administration? What about the conference, some conferences have guidelines, correct.
I have Dillon Bryant in my program who is actually an OF. He told it was a quick 3 minute conversation. Coach told him you will never play here and numbers are not what I am looking for. My question was how could he know if had never seen him play? The kid was devastated. He was a great student who turned down other offers for UNLV. From what I understand most if not all incoming guys were told you are not welcome. All but 4 sophomores were told not to return. The starting SS and 2B who were JC transfers and going to be seniors were told not to come back.
The comments he did make came off a bit arrogant. I understand he did well at the JC level but you have a different set of issues at a JC. All the best players are wearing the blue and gold of CSN? Now with winning with mostly Vegas guys....It is not Texas, Florida or California with the population of players. What is his strategy to keep the top Vegas guys from going to Fullerton, San Diego, ASU or any other top school? Now if you are Non-Vegas guy you it really gives you something to think about. He hired the pitching coach from Reno. I am not familiar with him. Anyone know of him?
Some wrote in a earlier post they should show the coach he needs them and they are winners. They would have loved to but they were never given the chance.
The comments he did make came off a bit arrogant. I understand he did well at the JC level but you have a different set of issues at a JC. All the best players are wearing the blue and gold of CSN? Now with winning with mostly Vegas guys....It is not Texas, Florida or California with the population of players. What is his strategy to keep the top Vegas guys from going to Fullerton, San Diego, ASU or any other top school? Now if you are Non-Vegas guy you it really gives you something to think about. He hired the pitching coach from Reno. I am not familiar with him. Anyone know of him?
Some wrote in a earlier post they should show the coach he needs them and they are winners. They would have loved to but they were never given the chance.
WOW. Not cool. Not right. This guy sounds like someone you don't want to play for anyway.Cutting returning players who were starters.The NCAA just has to do something about this.Players have to sit out for these types of coaches.Not good at all.
My question is what can we do, what can any of us do in terms of change. Can we petition to NCAA to at least give these players some sort of protection? What about, if not that, asking that a rule be put into place allowing transferring for these types of cases without sitting a year? These soulless coaches will always exist and they will ruin careers, and it's definitely heartbreaking, even to an outsider who has nothing personally to do with anyone involved here. At least it would seem better if something was done to make better the situation. Just an idea that we can push forward and try.
EDIT: Hmm, interesting - reading about an Ohio State recruit who asked NCAA to be released when recent coaching change was made - and his request was granted. Can all these players do the same? Obviously it's still a tough situation but it's better than being contractually bound (then again, some guys still might have to take 4-2-4, which really doesn't work for the seniors...).
EDIT: Hmm, interesting - reading about an Ohio State recruit who asked NCAA to be released when recent coaching change was made - and his request was granted. Can all these players do the same? Obviously it's still a tough situation but it's better than being contractually bound (then again, some guys still might have to take 4-2-4, which really doesn't work for the seniors...).
I do not see why there should be any outrage at all. The coach is being upfront with the recruits.
The OP also does not mention if the coach has offered to release the kids from the NLI or if he is going to assist them in reloacting if they wish.
I also cannot believe that a college coach will willingly hurt his teams chances by having 5 kids on scholly not in uniform. Sounds kind of stupid to me.
The OP also does not mention if the coach has offered to release the kids from the NLI or if he is going to assist them in reloacting if they wish.
I also cannot believe that a college coach will willingly hurt his teams chances by having 5 kids on scholly not in uniform. Sounds kind of stupid to me.