I can understand where a coach may have his own philosophies, and recruiting styles, but who is Chambers to say your not going to play on my team to kids that he does not even know anything about?
It's going to become a carousel with him parading all of his boys from CCSN in to the program.
What the press is saying:
"I'm not close enough to the inner working of UNLV to know whether its the new president, the new athletic director, a combination of the two or something else. But somebody over there is reaching the right conclusions and making some good moves, the latest of which is the hiring of College of Southern Nevada baseball coach Tim Chambers as the new UNLV baseball coach.
The Ron Kantowski column in today's Review-Journal delves into it. I recommend it for your morning reading this fine Saturday. As Ron says:
"Speak confidently, carry a big shovel, recruit local kids, raise money, hit the cutoff man, win baseball games, build a program. This could really be the start of something."
UNLV should have one of the better baseball teams in the country, year-in and year-out. I think this could be the start of something big."
"Tim Chambers might not bat his pitchers in the No. 8 slot, but he is the right man for this job. He was the right man last year and the year before that and the year before that, even if then-athletic director Mike Hamrick kept giving Buddy Gouldsmith one-year contract extensions for being a nice guy whose teams showed improvement in the classroom but not a whole lot of it between the lines.
"Timing is everything, and this is the right time for Tim Chambers and the right time for UNLV," athletic director Jim Livengood said in one of those statements that sounds cliche but, in this case, suggests Livengood has been doing his homework.
Chambers might be able to manage John McGraw under a table, but without resources, the road to Omaha and the College World Series, where UNLV has never been, is pie in the sky with an infield fly. But if it comes to it, this is a man who made chicken salad out of a chicken-wire backstop at CSN, a man who carved a mountain of victories and a billiard-table smooth infield out of a molehill of donated dirt. Tim Chambers can raise his own money, if that's what it takes."
A quick read suggests the goals are pretty clear cut: win, raise money and bring visibility to UNLV.
If I were a player or parent, those are the thoughts and comments that would get my attention. I don't read anything about graduation rates (other than the fired coach had them), building a program, investing in my players, success in the classroom and preparing them for life.
Winning, winning now, money and Omaha. That is the message I am reading. My bet is he has players/recruits standing in line. Few, if any, will care about those left in the rubble of the transition.
"I'm not close enough to the inner working of UNLV to know whether its the new president, the new athletic director, a combination of the two or something else. But somebody over there is reaching the right conclusions and making some good moves, the latest of which is the hiring of College of Southern Nevada baseball coach Tim Chambers as the new UNLV baseball coach.
The Ron Kantowski column in today's Review-Journal delves into it. I recommend it for your morning reading this fine Saturday. As Ron says:
"Speak confidently, carry a big shovel, recruit local kids, raise money, hit the cutoff man, win baseball games, build a program. This could really be the start of something."
UNLV should have one of the better baseball teams in the country, year-in and year-out. I think this could be the start of something big."
"Tim Chambers might not bat his pitchers in the No. 8 slot, but he is the right man for this job. He was the right man last year and the year before that and the year before that, even if then-athletic director Mike Hamrick kept giving Buddy Gouldsmith one-year contract extensions for being a nice guy whose teams showed improvement in the classroom but not a whole lot of it between the lines.
"Timing is everything, and this is the right time for Tim Chambers and the right time for UNLV," athletic director Jim Livengood said in one of those statements that sounds cliche but, in this case, suggests Livengood has been doing his homework.
Chambers might be able to manage John McGraw under a table, but without resources, the road to Omaha and the College World Series, where UNLV has never been, is pie in the sky with an infield fly. But if it comes to it, this is a man who made chicken salad out of a chicken-wire backstop at CSN, a man who carved a mountain of victories and a billiard-table smooth infield out of a molehill of donated dirt. Tim Chambers can raise his own money, if that's what it takes."
A quick read suggests the goals are pretty clear cut: win, raise money and bring visibility to UNLV.
If I were a player or parent, those are the thoughts and comments that would get my attention. I don't read anything about graduation rates (other than the fired coach had them), building a program, investing in my players, success in the classroom and preparing them for life.
Winning, winning now, money and Omaha. That is the message I am reading. My bet is he has players/recruits standing in line. Few, if any, will care about those left in the rubble of the transition.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad Ref:Ron Kantowski :
...pie in the sky with an infield fly...
Oh, my.
Good thing they don't have a Pulitzer Prize for "Best Job of Hacking up the English Language"
quote:Rob Kremer's son and mine were both at a Pepperdine camp a few years back and Rodriguez told everyone that he honored scholarships for 4 years if the player put in the effort on the field and in the classroom. He figured that if the player wasn't good enough despite putting in the effort then it was poor recruiting on his part and that he had an ethical obligation to the player. They did have a "housecleaning" a couple years ago so I don't know if he's stuck to that approach, but I can tell you that Rob and I were both quite impressed by what he told us at the time.
I know firsthand, That Coach Rod Honors his scollys.
And as long as that player puts in the effort on and off the field.
he will continue to honor it.
My son has been injured the last 2 season's, with no possibility
of playing on the field.
Yet he worked himself onto the roster, and travelling team.
By what he's able to do in the dugout.
So my answer to those scholly players at UNLV.
Earn your scholly.
Change the coaches mind.
Make it impossible for them to release you.
Except the challenge.
And before your first practice talk to the coach, and tell him just that.
I'm a winner.
JMHO
EH
A player could probably count himself as lucky if he made it through, got a degree and contributed to a successful program without getting jerked around somewhere along the line.
Sounds like a total screw job for the JC transfer... previously mentioned in the thread. Its a little late for the JC guy to now apply to the next school of his choice w/o help from a baseball coach, and I hope he didn't adjust his class schedule to fullfill UNLV requirements that don't work at someother school. Perhpas there is some other info that sheds a more favorable light on this situaiton for the new UNLV coach?
The theory of "keeping good players local" to boost the UNLV program sounds good.....until one finds out the good local players have more then one school choice and some don't want to go to college in Southern Nevada.
Maybe it will work out, the new coach seems to be getting alot of attention!
The theory of "keeping good players local" to boost the UNLV program sounds good.....until one finds out the good local players have more then one school choice and some don't want to go to college in Southern Nevada.
Maybe it will work out, the new coach seems to be getting alot of attention!
I think in this case local means players from out of state who attended CSN.
Given that CSN was undefeated this past season with all that talent they had it is obvious that Chambers will immediately take UNLV to the CWS with the few remaining CSN players who weren't drafted.
CSN went undefeated and won the JUCO WS of course?
EH,
It doesn't sound like earning their scholly is an option.
Given that CSN was undefeated this past season with all that talent they had it is obvious that Chambers will immediately take UNLV to the CWS with the few remaining CSN players who weren't drafted.
CSN went undefeated and won the JUCO WS of course?
EH,
It doesn't sound like earning their scholly is an option.
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
A player could probably count himself as lucky if he made it through, got a degree and contributed to a successful program without getting jerked around somewhere along the line.
Yeah? name one?!?!?!
I think this just goes to show that anybody expecting innocence or high moral ground in college baseball is being a bit naive. Bad poop happens to good people. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. (Is there a limit to cliche's I can toss out in one message? I'd like a ruling on that one please.)
Very interesting facts below HOME TOWN IN BOLD as listed on the so nev roster when harper did not catch. Also, of 28 players listed on their so nev roster 14 were from out of Las Vegas 13 being out of state. Hmmm a very nice touch of local talent at a JC, NOT.
Southern Nevada 5 (39-10,26-7 SWAC)
Player ab r
Dysinger, Scott 2b 4 1
Weidenaar, Gabe cf/lf 2 2
Harper, Bryce rf 2 1
Cook, Trent dh UTAH 2 0
Campbell, Marvin lf 3 0
Demello, Josh cf 0 0
Thomas, Ryan 1b 2 0
Scott, Ryan c 3 ARIZONA 0
Delp, Tomo 3b 3 1
Higa, Daniel ss HAWAII 3 0
Robinson, Joe p 0 0
Totals 24 5
Southern Nevada 5 (39-10,26-7 SWAC)
Player ab r
Dysinger, Scott 2b 4 1
Weidenaar, Gabe cf/lf 2 2
Harper, Bryce rf 2 1
Cook, Trent dh UTAH 2 0
Campbell, Marvin lf 3 0
Demello, Josh cf 0 0
Thomas, Ryan 1b 2 0
Scott, Ryan c 3 ARIZONA 0
Delp, Tomo 3b 3 1
Higa, Daniel ss HAWAII 3 0
Robinson, Joe p 0 0
Totals 24 5
Just an observation and not made with any assessment of good vs bad, just different:
This situation would/could not ever occur at the DIII level. No baseball scholarships, no NLI, no Omaha/ESPN and the $$$ it brings.
I have a clear recall of a post justbaseball made a few years back where he expressed trepidation that DI college baseball was becoming more and more like the business of college football and basketball, just on a smaller scale.
Perhaps with what is happening with UNLV, we are now seeing that college baseball is not different anymore and what remains to be seen is whether UNLV is different or the first of many more to come.
This situation would/could not ever occur at the DIII level. No baseball scholarships, no NLI, no Omaha/ESPN and the $$$ it brings.
I have a clear recall of a post justbaseball made a few years back where he expressed trepidation that DI college baseball was becoming more and more like the business of college football and basketball, just on a smaller scale.
Perhaps with what is happening with UNLV, we are now seeing that college baseball is not different anymore and what remains to be seen is whether UNLV is different or the first of many more to come.
Well call me oldfashioned, but there's a thing called "Kharma".
If there's know option, then Plan B.
And hope your path's meet some day down the road, and that you have success.
EH
If there's know option, then Plan B.
And hope your path's meet some day down the road, and that you have success.
EH
gonyard,
Are you trying to tell me that CSN didn't go undefeated and win the JUCO CWS???!!!
Gosh, that means UNLV may have to wait until 2012 to reach the CWS.
Are you trying to tell me that CSN didn't go undefeated and win the JUCO CWS???!!!
Gosh, that means UNLV may have to wait until 2012 to reach the CWS.
I get the reality here of “business” but I would think the honorable and right thing to do would be to present the players with “you can compete with players I now and am bringing in and the best player plays and gets the spot.” The problem is these are his JC guys, with promises probably already made on monies, and if he breaks those promises then he would have upset all of Las Vegas. The old slogan “don’t @#$% where you eat” comes to mind.
In other words its perfectly fine to make promises to some and break those to others without even seeing who really is the best players. For the incoming freshman it is not the right thing to do. I get it a little more with the future seniors who he has seen up close and maybe has his own jc guys that are better, that’s part of the deal, I get it. But for incoming freshman without evaluating them or giving them at least a shot, not good. In fact his “chosen jc transfer by all rights may be gone after their junior year to the draft if they are so good anyway. So those incoming freshman may be ready (redshirt anyone) to take those open spots, if not he cuts them but they got a chance and the school lived up to its end of the deal. It appears that 2 are outfielders so now win win. They honor their commitments and players if good enough are ready to play come their soph and junior years. And maybe they win right away. Only problem is he needs scholly money NOW in order to get his jc guys since they probably have deals elsewhere.
All future freshman beware, theres a new sheriff in town.
In other words its perfectly fine to make promises to some and break those to others without even seeing who really is the best players. For the incoming freshman it is not the right thing to do. I get it a little more with the future seniors who he has seen up close and maybe has his own jc guys that are better, that’s part of the deal, I get it. But for incoming freshman without evaluating them or giving them at least a shot, not good. In fact his “chosen jc transfer by all rights may be gone after their junior year to the draft if they are so good anyway. So those incoming freshman may be ready (redshirt anyone) to take those open spots, if not he cuts them but they got a chance and the school lived up to its end of the deal. It appears that 2 are outfielders so now win win. They honor their commitments and players if good enough are ready to play come their soph and junior years. And maybe they win right away. Only problem is he needs scholly money NOW in order to get his jc guys since they probably have deals elsewhere.
All future freshman beware, theres a new sheriff in town.
gonyard,
Redshirt still takes up a roster spot. BTW, he'll have ownership with future freshman and transfers so that isn't as much of an issue. Time will tell if he turns over his scholarships on a regular basis.
Redshirt still takes up a roster spot. BTW, he'll have ownership with future freshman and transfers so that isn't as much of an issue. Time will tell if he turns over his scholarships on a regular basis.
quote:Perhaps with what is happening with UNLV, we are now seeing that college baseball is not different anymore and what remains to be seen is whether UNLV is different or the first of many more to come.
Infield dad, you may have hit the nail on the head . Great thinking there. Your words are very valuable.
Moral of the story , have plan B and C if the player wants to continue to play baseball. My son is getting ready for D1 baseball and I have grown and changed my view a little to now say this question is really key, it is:
? Son, would you go to this school and graduate if you no longer played baseball there? and Would you go to this school if you were not a baseball player period?
In our case we have answered those questions first.
quote:Infield dad, you may have hit the nail on the head . Great thinking there
gonyard, thank you.
Even a stopped clock has a chance of being right twice per day!
Is this not reflective of the new rules after 2 years of existence ? This is one of the things we thought would happen more often with fewer roster spots and limited scholarship given 25% min and 27 counters.
Coaches are out to survive and if a few players are hurt along the was that is life. Saw this several times when coaches were changed.
My son's college had a similar thing happen. The coach told all the seniors they would act as mentors as he built HIS roster. The truth is he didn't care about that year as far as being competetive. Last year he had his guys plus the guys he recruited and they only won one more game. The best hitter from the year before sat most of the year. His best players were guys that were recruited by the previous coach.
A friend was at a D1 in Arkansas when a new coach came in and let his 3 roommates go in their JR year. The coach approached him and told him to start looking for 3 new roommates. The irony was this previously successful coach was fired after 3 years.
If you treat players with respect you will get a lot more out of them.
I'm not sure how you would have a plan B after signing an NLI under the current rules.
Coaches are out to survive and if a few players are hurt along the was that is life. Saw this several times when coaches were changed.
My son's college had a similar thing happen. The coach told all the seniors they would act as mentors as he built HIS roster. The truth is he didn't care about that year as far as being competetive. Last year he had his guys plus the guys he recruited and they only won one more game. The best hitter from the year before sat most of the year. His best players were guys that were recruited by the previous coach.
A friend was at a D1 in Arkansas when a new coach came in and let his 3 roommates go in their JR year. The coach approached him and told him to start looking for 3 new roommates. The irony was this previously successful coach was fired after 3 years.
If you treat players with respect you will get a lot more out of them.
I'm not sure how you would have a plan B after signing an NLI under the current rules.
Hopefully, this thread and the thoughts expressed won't cause players and parents alike to become the eternal skeptics and for all of us to throw up/throw up our hands I mean in disgust.
Before this season started, I read an interview with Mik Aoki from BC.
To my reading, Mik is suggesting what is reported as happening at UNLV is not new, is limited and not consistent with most coaches commitments with their players.
The interesting, and upsetting, aspect to the answer I will post from Mik is the fact that those few coaches who were raiding Summer leagues and were/are responsible for the change in transfer rules are now the same ones taking advantage of the new rules.
From Mik Aoki:
"10. With the removal of the one-time transfer exception that allowed student-athletes to change schools once without having to sit out a red-shirt year, do you feel that there is more pressure on a coach to recruit with responsibility or for the student-athlete to be aware of what programs are the best fit for them?
I’ve always felt that responsibility and I think the large majority of college coaches feel it as well. There will always be coaches who do not feel that responsibility and they’ve already found ways around the new scholarship rules and have actually taken advantage of the removal of the one-time exception. Basically they don’t renew aid to seniors because they know that seniors have very few options and in the case of a 5th year kid, he has absolutely no options. Terrible manipulation of the rule as far as I’m concerned, but there will always be those guys that find their way around anything the NCAA comes up with.
I hope that the prospective SA’s also feel that responsibility and do a good job researching the schools and the programs, because they are the ones who ultimately get hurt if they feel they have to transfer. I do think that removing the one-time transfer rule was a good thing; however I do think that there needs to be some common sense with it – for example if a kid is one of the 8 non-scholarship spots in a program, they should be allowed to transfer once without having to sit.
Unfortunately the rule had to be put in because of the transgressions of a few. The recruiting summer leagues, going through advisors, having players recruit other players, etc. was completely out of control."
Before this season started, I read an interview with Mik Aoki from BC.
To my reading, Mik is suggesting what is reported as happening at UNLV is not new, is limited and not consistent with most coaches commitments with their players.
The interesting, and upsetting, aspect to the answer I will post from Mik is the fact that those few coaches who were raiding Summer leagues and were/are responsible for the change in transfer rules are now the same ones taking advantage of the new rules.
From Mik Aoki:
"10. With the removal of the one-time transfer exception that allowed student-athletes to change schools once without having to sit out a red-shirt year, do you feel that there is more pressure on a coach to recruit with responsibility or for the student-athlete to be aware of what programs are the best fit for them?
I’ve always felt that responsibility and I think the large majority of college coaches feel it as well. There will always be coaches who do not feel that responsibility and they’ve already found ways around the new scholarship rules and have actually taken advantage of the removal of the one-time exception. Basically they don’t renew aid to seniors because they know that seniors have very few options and in the case of a 5th year kid, he has absolutely no options. Terrible manipulation of the rule as far as I’m concerned, but there will always be those guys that find their way around anything the NCAA comes up with.
I hope that the prospective SA’s also feel that responsibility and do a good job researching the schools and the programs, because they are the ones who ultimately get hurt if they feel they have to transfer. I do think that removing the one-time transfer rule was a good thing; however I do think that there needs to be some common sense with it – for example if a kid is one of the 8 non-scholarship spots in a program, they should be allowed to transfer once without having to sit.
Unfortunately the rule had to be put in because of the transgressions of a few. The recruiting summer leagues, going through advisors, having players recruit other players, etc. was completely out of control."
Plan B would most likely not include D1 if you want to play right away.
I made sure to keep my son visible and have chats with local JC's and even D3 and NAIA guys just in case.
And after hearing this I'm glad we did it.
I made sure to keep my son visible and have chats with local JC's and even D3 and NAIA guys just in case.
And after hearing this I'm glad we did it.
quote:? Son, would you go to this school and graduate if you no longer played baseball there? and Would you go to this school if you were not a baseball player period?
In our case we have answered those questions first.
gonyard - I totally respect your opinion but I don't believe that is how people make their decisions. I think that is a false choice and people say it because it makes them feel good.
We have dozens and dozens of transfer stories every year here and not one of the posters ever says "My son is just going to give baseball up because he loves the school so much" When the baseball goes bad for the baseball player, it doesn't matter who the school is imho. I base these observations on the thousands of opinions that are expressed here each year. Baseball is very important to people and I cannot figure out why people can't acknowledge that. I don't understand why a baseball player wouldn't make that an important part of the consideration. I don't understand why people bother with this site if baseball is not more important than that.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
A player could probably count himself as lucky if he made it through, got a degree and contributed to a successful program without getting jerked around somewhere along the line.
Yeah? name one?!?!?!
I think this just goes to show that anybody expecting innocence or high moral ground in college baseball is being a bit naive. Bad poop happens to good people. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger. (Is there a limit to cliche's I can toss out in one message? I'd like a ruling on that one please.)
Is there good poop? You forgot "Life's not fair". This scenario happens at top programs and not so top programs. Florida told a couple of recruits the same thing with their most recent coaching change, as did UCF and Kentucky. Those are just the ones I know of. I don't know much, just ask my wife.
I guess I don't have a problem understanding that new coaches want THEIR players for many reasons. For me, the issue in this situation is how it was handled according to the original post. I think if a kid is already signed, you honor their scholarship and tell them how they may or may not fit in on your team. You don't DUMP them from the team. They were there first and are a part of the team.... whether that be sitting on bench or whatnot. You let the kid pick... but again, he is already a PART of the team. Being a part of a team doesn't always mean playing, but it does mean a role of some sort. None of these kids were guaranteed any playing time during their recruitment I assume?
I would have more respect for the coach that is honest, but honors the commitment that was already given and works with that hand! A player can then work with the hand that is dealt him, but he's still on that team if he decides to be.
I would have more respect for the coach that is honest, but honors the commitment that was already given and works with that hand! A player can then work with the hand that is dealt him, but he's still on that team if he decides to be.
quote:Originally posted by lafmom:
I guess I don't have a problem understanding that new coaches want THEIR players for many reasons. For me, the issue in this situation is how it was handled according to the original post. I think if a kid is already signed, you honor their scholarship and tell them how they may or may not fit in on your team. You don't DUMP them from the team. They were there first and are a part of the team.... whether that be sitting on bench or whatnot. You let the kid pick... but again, he is already a PART of the team. Being a part of a team doesn't always mean playing, but it does mean a role of some sort. None of these kids were guaranteed any playing time during their recruitment I assume?
I would have more respect for the coach that is honest, but honors the commitment that was already given and works with that hand! A player can then work with the hand that is dealt him, but he's still on that team if he decides to be.
Great post.
I guess I have had my feelings changed somewhat with the persuasive arguments that have been made here against the new coach's policy.
If a new coach told me I was not in his plans however, no matter how big a villain he was or how big a victim I was, I would make new plans.
Coach,
I understand you want to put your stamp on your program. I understand you want to bring your players in to your program. I understand that you want to get this thing going in the direction that you believe it should go. But don't you have a heart? Do you have a son? Do you have any children?
Don't you think you could have showed some class and evaluated all of your players in the fall? You know, evaluated the talent on the roster and the ones coming in this year? Then you could have a better understanding of what you needed to do and the players could have some time to make whatever decision they needed to make?
Do you realize that every college program that recruits against you is going to use this situation you created as a recruiting tool against you in the future?
Every kid that plays ball with or against , that knows these players , every coach that coached or coached against these players , every parent , friend , etc etc is now left with a bad taste in their mouth for UNLV because of you. You may think you have started in the right direction with this move. IMO you could not have done more damage.
You can bet I would use this against you and your program. And you can bet I would never allow one of my players to even consider your program without making sure they knew exactly what just happened. Good luck because I have a feeling your going to need it.
There is a school here in NC that pulled this with an incoming player a couple of years ago. New pitching coach was hired and went to see the kid they had already signed and said "He cant pitch here." They called the kid in and told him he should give back his scholly and go JUCO. The kid was an All American at another NC college program and shoved it on them twice so far. The worse thing for this school is when the word got out many kids on the showcase circuit were mad. Very mad. They just couldnt understand why kids would not consider them. DUH!
What goes around comes around. I have always treated everyone's kid like they were my own. I have always treated others kids the way I would hope they would treat mine. When you do something like this you can justify it all you want. But if it smells like s@it , looks like s@it , feels like s@it - Its S@IT!
JMO
I understand you want to put your stamp on your program. I understand you want to bring your players in to your program. I understand that you want to get this thing going in the direction that you believe it should go. But don't you have a heart? Do you have a son? Do you have any children?
Don't you think you could have showed some class and evaluated all of your players in the fall? You know, evaluated the talent on the roster and the ones coming in this year? Then you could have a better understanding of what you needed to do and the players could have some time to make whatever decision they needed to make?
Do you realize that every college program that recruits against you is going to use this situation you created as a recruiting tool against you in the future?
Every kid that plays ball with or against , that knows these players , every coach that coached or coached against these players , every parent , friend , etc etc is now left with a bad taste in their mouth for UNLV because of you. You may think you have started in the right direction with this move. IMO you could not have done more damage.
You can bet I would use this against you and your program. And you can bet I would never allow one of my players to even consider your program without making sure they knew exactly what just happened. Good luck because I have a feeling your going to need it.
There is a school here in NC that pulled this with an incoming player a couple of years ago. New pitching coach was hired and went to see the kid they had already signed and said "He cant pitch here." They called the kid in and told him he should give back his scholly and go JUCO. The kid was an All American at another NC college program and shoved it on them twice so far. The worse thing for this school is when the word got out many kids on the showcase circuit were mad. Very mad. They just couldnt understand why kids would not consider them. DUH!
What goes around comes around. I have always treated everyone's kid like they were my own. I have always treated others kids the way I would hope they would treat mine. When you do something like this you can justify it all you want. But if it smells like s@it , looks like s@it , feels like s@it - Its S@IT!
JMO
coach May (loved the post), I just got in from a connie mack game and was talking to a dad whose son just verbaled to San Diego State.
Guess what their coaches said to the recruit,
yep just as you predicted, they specifically said they would never do that to a kid and called out UNLV's situation. Unreal. Those schools are in the same conference so it did not take long for the word to get out.
Guess what their coaches said to the recruit,
yep just as you predicted, they specifically said they would never do that to a kid and called out UNLV's situation. Unreal. Those schools are in the same conference so it did not take long for the word to get out.
Coach May - unbelievably powerful post.
You, lafmom, CaDad, MidloDad, observer44, and infielddad among others have changed my feelings on the subject.
I feel now like I have been insensitive and I apologize for that.
The more I think about all this, this is about big egos. That is probably the thing I hate most about baseball. These kids deserve better.
You, lafmom, CaDad, MidloDad, observer44, and infielddad among others have changed my feelings on the subject.
I feel now like I have been insensitive and I apologize for that.
The more I think about all this, this is about big egos. That is probably the thing I hate most about baseball. These kids deserve better.
ClevelandDad,
I see your perspective on this and feel that in my case I sometimes get to insensitized due to the current times and society we live in.
I see your perspective on this and feel that in my case I sometimes get to insensitized due to the current times and society we live in.
quote:The more I think about all this, this is about big egos. That is probably the thing I hate most about baseball. These kids deserve better.
Just heard of another big time D1 cutting players.New coach etc.I don't like it .It stinks for the players.The NCAA must do something so that these players can go elsewhere without sitting.
People that are going through the process just need to be aware that it is happening.The NCAA has given all the power to the coaches.
They should be protecting the players, that's who this is about.
It also stinks when they cut a seniors scholly money.They have no leverage.Unless they get drafted after their junior year they can be screwed as well.
I am sensitive to the players.My heart breaks for them.But it happens and people need to be aware.it is not always happy endings when dealing with some of these programs.
quote:Originally posted by gonyard:
ClevelandDad,
I see your perspective on this and feel that in my case I sometimes get to insensitized due to the current times and society we live in.
We all do sometimes. I appreciate your take here gonyard and wish nothing but the best for your son in the future
Another thing about this site that keeps me coming back is the outstanding writers and thinkers we have. I thought I was the smartest guy on the planet until they all set me straight
I see it a blessing that the coach lets the players know where they stand before they waste a year. Changing the coaches mindset is not as easy as you think.
Some coaches blow smoke up players butts saying that they are going to be contributors only to not to be a contributor even after having a great fall.
As for cutting scholarships, some programs cut players after the first year, they also cut/reduce scholarships for very high celling players after their sophomore year since they know they are going to go high in the draft after the next year and can't go anywhere for their junior year without sitting.
Fanofgame is right NCAA has give all the power to the coaches and none to protect the players.
Some coaches blow smoke up players butts saying that they are going to be contributors only to not to be a contributor even after having a great fall.
As for cutting scholarships, some programs cut players after the first year, they also cut/reduce scholarships for very high celling players after their sophomore year since they know they are going to go high in the draft after the next year and can't go anywhere for their junior year without sitting.
Fanofgame is right NCAA has give all the power to the coaches and none to protect the players.
I agree that d1 baseball is a business, but even business has some moral ground. My son was recruited and offered by both UNLV and CSUN. Although many people felt like we made a mistake going to a smaller program in a lower level d1 conference, we didn't feel good about the coaching situations. I looked at the programs percentages of retaining/graduating players. Sure you have to want to play in big programs with high success rates, but some of those programs and coaches sac many players on the way. In my opinion you have to figure out if you want to go to college and play baseball, or play baseball and go to college. I know many kids playing in big time programs who are happy, but even so are unhappy with there playing time or how treatment changes year to year. I do feel that you are seeing smaller programs improving due to the fact parents and players get more info today due to web. I feel so bad for these kids and there families. Not sure what I would be doing if in there shoes, many plans already laid out needing change? Not nice spot to be in, business or not. Also know kids that were committed this year and will inquire to find the real story on there treatment. I do agree that people talk and if its as bad as sounds it wont be good for recruiting in my humble opinion. Good luck to all the players who have to make hasty plans. I run in the same area as CaDad and agree that it stinks to me.
Coach May got it right.
It's stinky, and stink like that lingers.
A long time.
It's stinky, and stink like that lingers.
A long time.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
As far as the MLB part goes I think that it is well understood by both coaches and players that the NLI is not a commitment relative to a professional contract. The coaches understand they are taking their chances in that arena.
There are many players who sign an NLI with no intention of setting foot on campus, they need that NLI to use as a bargaining chip. I was told once nothing aggravates a coach more then the prospect who gets drafted and signs for next to nothing after they told the coach in discussion prior that it would take a lot for them to give up college. They are given a decent scholarhip, then turn around and tell teams they will sign for less. Then we congratulate that player for following his dream, yet trash the new coach who needs to go in a different direction. I have never heard any coach trash a player because he didn't live up to his commitment, have you? What about the player that waits all summer and a day before class tells coach they aren't coming?
I am not saying that I agree or disagree with either, but more or less it is a program's perogative as well as a players to change their minds.
For those programs that do this type of thing and known for it, if it is a winning program, no one boycotts them because they didn't honor players NLI.
JMO.
TPM, interesting view.
It seems to me though that the school/coach has at any point in time many players (options) for that position to call on to replace the player lost (but I do get that the player may not be as talented as the one they lost). However, a player's options have all dried up and there are no longer a list of schools he can play for.
It seems to me though that the school/coach has at any point in time many players (options) for that position to call on to replace the player lost (but I do get that the player may not be as talented as the one they lost). However, a player's options have all dried up and there are no longer a list of schools he can play for.
I have been reading this thread and, well, I just can't hold it in anymore.
Here is the rest of my take on this.....
Seriously, this is a sad state of affairs, and one of the main reasons I have been more than happy to seek sub-DII opportunities for my own kids. Boys just wanna play ball (apologies to Ms. Lauper).
Here is the rest of my take on this.....
Seriously, this is a sad state of affairs, and one of the main reasons I have been more than happy to seek sub-DII opportunities for my own kids. Boys just wanna play ball (apologies to Ms. Lauper).
Maybe this is in one of the posts but I didn't read it.
What is the coach who recruited these kids doing to help them? I sure hope is helping them find spots elsewhere.
Very interesting discussion...
What is the coach who recruited these kids doing to help them? I sure hope is helping them find spots elsewhere.
Very interesting discussion...
TPM - That is an excellent reminder. I don't have a lot of respect for the players that aren't totally honest and up front neither.
Most wouldn't remember my son's story back out of HS. He signed with a JUCO and the coach (who we were crazy about) left the END of July. We actually found out through a news release online before he called my son. Many players, I'm sure, including my son felt let down, scared, etc. that the coach was gone. So.... what does my son do? He left and signed with another school. My son was needed in that program and very much wanted by the new coach. I still feel guilty today and regret the choice. It was ultimately a bad one for my son. There are lots of emotions involved in college athletics and it's so easy for players and coaches to make poor ones.... what should be strived for by all is at least to make sure the mistakes are done through an honest and fair hand.... as fair as we can be... That goes for players and coaches.
Most wouldn't remember my son's story back out of HS. He signed with a JUCO and the coach (who we were crazy about) left the END of July. We actually found out through a news release online before he called my son. Many players, I'm sure, including my son felt let down, scared, etc. that the coach was gone. So.... what does my son do? He left and signed with another school. My son was needed in that program and very much wanted by the new coach. I still feel guilty today and regret the choice. It was ultimately a bad one for my son. There are lots of emotions involved in college athletics and it's so easy for players and coaches to make poor ones.... what should be strived for by all is at least to make sure the mistakes are done through an honest and fair hand.... as fair as we can be... That goes for players and coaches.
quote:Originally posted by gonyard:
coach May (loved the post), I just got in from a connie mack game and was talking to a dad whose son just verbaled to San Diego State.
Guess what their coaches said to the recruit,
yep just as you predicted, they specifically said they would never do that to a kid and called out UNLV's situation. Unreal. Those schools are in the same conference so it did not take long for the word to get out.
Funny, in a sad sort of way, how this works.
Recently SDSU was one of the programs mentioned on this site for questionable over recruiting with NLI classes in the range of 16-20. This year they have 7 seniors listed on the roster, lost 2 to the draft, and had a November signing class of 16. Hmmmm??
The quote I provided from Coach Aoki truly focuses the issue.
A few college coaches abused the one time transfer rule.
The new sit out rule was passed to prevent that abuse. Now many of those same coaches abuse the sit out rule by pulling schollies knowing the player cannot transfer and is stuck.
Right now we appear to have a visible situation at UNLV.
This coach is being paid over $100,000 per year to win, to put butts in the seats, to bring in revenue, and to create a buzz in LV.
While I disagree with what I am reading he is doing, the issue, for me, is a moral and ethical one. What he is doing in permissible.
To be honest, where I am more than willing to attribute fault or whatever we might want to call it, is with the AD and President/Administration of UNLV.
If AD/President/Administration supported and had integrity for the concept and reality of their student/athletes, this should not be happening, in the way it is happening.
Money and the business aspect of DI baseball as contrasted with the interests of the student athlete is a tenuous balance in just about every DI baseball program. Our economy and the cutbacks in State funding and private support is the reason.
The end result would seem to have schools fall into the following categories:
1.) At some schools, business and money and winning at all costs is the priority.
2.) At some schools, the student/athlete is the priority, resources are scarce, winning is a challenge and great coaching exists.
3.) At some schools, the student athlete is the priority, resources are scarce, winning is a challenge, and poor coaching exists.
For those who choose schools in the #1 category, it really should be a buyer beware reality. Picking a school based on their financial commitment/support for baseball combined with their emphasis on winning may correlate with an associated lesser emphasis on the commitment to the student/athlete. This is not true universally I am sure. But players and parents encounter significant risk when the business side wins over the student side and even more risk when the school changes that balance in mid-stream like is being reported and discussed here.
quote:Originally posted by Homerun04:
I see it a blessing that the coach lets the players know where they stand before they waste a year. Changing the coaches mindset is not as easy as you think.
Some coaches blow smoke up players butts saying that they are going to be contributors only to not to be a contributor even after having a great fall.
As for cutting scholarships, some programs cut players after the first year, they also cut/reduce scholarships for very high celling players after their sophomore year since they know they are going to go high in the draft after the next year and can't go anywhere for their junior year without sitting.
Fanofgame is right NCAA has give all the power to the coaches and none to protect the players.
Sure I agree with letting a player know where they stand. I never want to feed a kid with false positives. However how the hell do you let a kid know where he stands, if you do not know anything about the kid? Are you giving a kid an honest chance to make the squad? Why not let the kid show you what he has in the fall, and then let them know where they stand? Makes more sense to me, and makes you look like less of an ***. But then again Chambers is an ***...
quote:Originally posted by gonyard:
TPM, interesting view.
It seems to me though that the school/coach has at any point in time many players (options) for that position to call on to replace the player lost (but I do get that the player may not be as talented as the one they lost). However, a player's options have all dried up and there are no longer a list of schools he can play for.
I am not necessarily talking about a player that is expected to be a top pick in the draft. Really good recruiters know the odds of those player not coming will be very high. The core of a college team is not made up entirely of superstars, but rather solid players that they can develop into better players that will benefit their program.
What I don't get is how can a coach honor the scholarship of players that won't play and be able to afford more players, and where is he going to find those players on such short notice as well? And do we know exactly what was said in the conversation between coach and player? Do we know if those players were really good fits for the program or what their academic standings were, sometimes it's just not all about baseball ability, though we assume. Would more players show up than 35? Think about if your son was on that team and no longer bound to the rules of the NLI, would you appreciate him being cut after giving them a year or two because of too many on the roster? Where would he go?
This is not in defense of the coach, I personally don't agree with what has occured (without really knowing the full story), sometimes we just get bits and pieces. I have a distain for coaches who over recruit and don't plan well, but I also don't really like it when a player uses the system to get what he wants (though as stated that is his perogative), couldn't care less about his NLI and another player who really has every intention of attending and not given a chance because someone else manipulated the system. It works both ways and we have to recognize that. It's natural assumption to assume teh coach is a jerk, but do we really understand what really takes place in a program and the pressure these guys get from up above to have a winning program (I am not talking about going to Omaha but having a record over 500).
Dad04 brings up a good example from a few years back when Kevin O'Sullivan took over at UF. 45 rostered players when the following year the rosters were changing to less, 5-6 catchers on roster? Players who hadn't played in years but there because of former coaches relationships? The program was a mess, and he got trashed here and in the local papers for cutting players. Yet he spoke to each and every player and was up front and found every player a place to play. We don't hear about that stuff do we, we only know he was a bad guy for having to let players go.
What has been stated for many years here still stands the same, college baseball is a big business and getting bigger, you have to go into this with eyes wide open, even when you have sure thing, know your options if something should happen.
Personally I would rather my player know the situation BEFORE he begins with a new coach who didn't recruit him, if they stayed a year and let go, they would have to sit out one year at another D1 program. Anyone of these players can attend a JUCO for a year, prove they belong and attend a D1 or any other program next fall. The sun doesn't rise and set in attending a D1 program. There are a lot of good options out there for many players to follow.