Update on son's progress and willing to take any advice

Was reading an old post of yours and you mentioned your boy (last summer) hit 75mph as a 6'2" seventh grader. Now you are saying that he is throwing 83-84 as a 6'3" eigth grader? Personally I have no advice to give you. I should be asking for advice from you. What program are you on that increases velocity 9 mph in 6 months? Not that I think it is impossible for a 13-14 year old, just extremely rare!

If he really is throwing mid 80's now I would start shopping for the best coach in the country, get him to try out for the national USA Baseball team and get him into the best of the best showcases possible. In my area I live in which has some of the best competetive talent in the country for its age, most seventh- eighth graders on travel teams throw mid 70's with a few (less than 5) throwing close to 80. We had one kid last year who made it to the final cut of the USA Baseball team. He threw high seventies at that time maybe even topping 80 on occasion. Mid 80's for an eighth grader is exceptional talent and probably only a handful of kids in the entire country throw that fast at that age.

Bacdor how old is your son?

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Was reading an old post of yours and you mentioned your boy (last summer) hit 75mph as a 6'2" seventh grader. Now you are saying that he is throwing 83-84 as a 6'3" eigth grader? Personally I have no advice to give you. I should be asking for advice from you. What program are you on that increases velocity 9 mph in 6 months? Not that I think it is impossible for a 13-14 year old, just extremely rare!

If he really is throwing mid 80's now I would start shopping for the best coach in the country, get him to try out for the national USA Baseball team and get him into the best of the best showcases possible. In my area I live in which has some of the best competetive talent in the country for its age, most seventh- eighth graders on travel teams throw mid 70's with a few (less than 5) throwing close to 80. We had one kid last year who made it to the final cut of the USA Baseball team. He threw high seventies at that time maybe even topping 80 on occasion. Mid 80's for an eighth grader is exceptional talent and probably only a handful of kids in the entire country throw that fast at that age.

Idaho is a hotbed for baseball?

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Idaho is a hotbed for baseball?

You would be surprised! We have a great well established travel team league to play in which includes all of eastern and southern Idaho, Utah, Northern Nevada, and Wyoming. Pooling an area of about 2 million people with close to 400 travel teames in our league (RMSB.com)

My mistake was to brag about his speed. I should not have done that.


"Advice on how much we should throw, should not throw, how many innings should we pitch total in a season, number of pitcher per game, recovery aids, performance supplements,work-outs specifically for pitchers? should we ice after every game practice etc..."

I think with that velo in 8th grade and where your son is compared to others has a lot to do with how much he throws. If my son was at those velo's at his age I would treat him with kit gloves. Now you may be thinking that you should do the same thing regardless of his velocity, and to some extent this is true, however if your son is in the top 0.1% in the country then I would make sure that I was working out with a very good pitching instructor, and do much less actual pitching in games. Why? He does not need to develop it - he has it already! I would only take him to the most high profile events like the USA baseball series for the National teams. Some one asked how old he was and you have not posted this and this makes a difference. I assume he would try out for the 14U National team. I would only put him on a very visible National level team. Again with this velo and size he will be a shoe in on many many national teams.

ASMI has all of the guidelines you need as far as the number of pitches and innings, rest etc. Spend some time there and do your own homework so you understand it yourself instead of getting it from some unknown poster on this web site. (myself included)

For me I would get him to a Jaeger camp for long toss and arm care. If not purchase bands and thrive on throwing CD. As far as warm up, he must not pick up a baseball until he has a little sweat started, stretch, bands and then proper throwing warm up. After he pitches make sure he gets in a light 2-3 mi jog. Icing is a personal decision, some like it some don’t. ASMI recommends light icing for a short period of time, but they are doing a full study on it right now. As far as eating just make sure he has a well balanced diet, he is a little young for doing much lifting and proteins etc. If he does anything I would focus on sprints, and full body, body weight only workouts. Remember he is an 8th grader. Most of all make it fun, not work.

No offense GBMan but if we were at a National tournament we would always be happy to see a team from this area in our pool. Not putting the kids down at all, since there are some very good players and teams from this area. I would not use the term "hotbed" however.

Thank you for your reply BOF. That's the stuff I was wanting to know. He plays on a top 25 type travel team in the summer we are in the southeast. This year his team will be 15u....he is 14 and turns 15 in July. So he is an older 8th grader.

BOF gives good advice here.

I think he is eligible for the USA National 14U team so I would get to this series for sure. I would also play him up like you are. If he is not eligble for the 14U team I would for sure go the the USA Baseball 16U championships. Fl or Arizona. He could do this twice which would give him an advantage the second year.

He is not eligible for the 14's. USA Baseball eligibility works on a calendar year. My thought is that his team will go twice to the 16 USA Nationals as they an upper level club. Again, keep things in perspective and let things happen. There is no rush here.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
No offense GBMan but if we were at a National tournament we would always be happy to see a team from this area in our pool. Not putting the kids down at all, since there are some very good players and teams from this area. I would not use the term "hotbed" however.

We have a great "hotbed" of talent here in the Utah/Idaho region. I would put our top travel teams up against any in the country and would bet they would fare just fine. We live in a cold weather state but take baseball very seriously up here. The travel league we play in is one of the best in the country in my opinion for developing kids into having post HS opportunities.

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:
He is not eligible for the 14's. USA Baseball eligibility works on a calendar year. My thought is that his team will go twice to the 16 USA Nationals as they an upper level club. Again, keep things in perspective and let things happen. There is no rush here.

Perfect decision. There were a number of teams doing this last year. He will get the experience the first time and get maybe get on USA Baseball's radar. He will get comfortable with the competition. I have never seen such a collection of talented 16YO players in my life. Really great tournament.

So his summer team will have to go to this tourney next year? What if elect not to go....how can my son go, find a team that is going?

If you trust this team and they are developing, then don't get too caught up. That's a good tournament. That said, it's just as important to be a great teammate and be loyal to your team. Plenty of time and ways to get exposure!

Another thing you may want to consider is to have him work on his core and flexibility. Young, tall, thin players can become susceptible to repetitive motion injuries and this would be a good preventative measure. Also, do make sure he is not the only top pitcher on his summer team. You want to have the pitching workload spread around and avoid him being overused just to win a tournament.

thanks for the advice birsman14, there are three other pitchers on hissummer team that are soph. that thro as hard as he does....I would expect about 55-60 innings for the summer.

I bought the Jeager bands and DVD

Wow, I have only seen one other 14 yo throw 84 (East Cobb).

I wouldn't worry too much. They will find you.

Don't break his arm. He has plenty of time.

They are out there. Some keep progressing and some peak early. We had a man-child who went 89, 90, 91 in three consecutive pitches the summer he just turned 14. Not much different now. Three years ago we faced East Cobb in the 14 finals. Our guy touched 86-87. They started a lefty who went 85 and closed with a kid who touched 89. Few and far between but they are out there.

Bottom line- You can't predict how they will end up. You just have to give them a good, safe plan. FYI- All three kids from three years ago have turned out to be pretty special.

Although I would admit it is rare, I have seen a kid or two touch this velocity at 14. Don't forget he is an "old" 14. Many kids with his birthdate would be freshmen in HS, and 84 is a velocity I have seen out of HS freshmen. Also he is 6'3". Most probably projectable with much more speed as he fills out. I look forward to following your son's progress!

Will he be eligible to play his senior year in HS? Most states have a Sept 1st cut-off for 19 year olds.
If not, you might plan ahead for that both academically and if he plans to continue playing post HS.

It sounds like he will turn 18 the summer after his junior year and be 18 his whole senior year. Quite eligible.

He will be eligible his sr. year. He is an older 8th grader but not that old. Thanks for the thought though.

With young kids I remember hearing "just because you can throw hard doesn't mean you should." That throwing with max effort while your body is developing is bad for your arm.

How do you feel about this?

Son is a 2014 6'3" 160 pounder. Throws hard but has not been gunned before. In fact, I'd rather he (nor I) not know how fast he throws for now because arm health and mechanics are what are most important. As a rule, he generally throws between 75-85% effort max when pitching during travel games. Occasionally, be may throw at 90% in critical situations when he has 2 strikes on the hitter. My questions are how hard (effort percentage) should kids pitch and at 75%-85% effort, does this minimize the development of arm strength and fast ball velocity?

Thanks for your insight.

I find the discussion of kids throwing at % of max interesting. How do you know where they are if you do ot know what max is? Are you measring effort, velocity?

The thing about a pitcher staying at under max effort leasds to a second question: If you are always under max effort, how do you know what max is?

2012 trains at below max then pushes his last couple just to see what is there. To quote a favorite book - House of God - "You can't find a temperature if you don't take it."

I think pretty much every developing pitcher throws at their max effort throw, velocity wise at some point in a game/season. If the arm is feeling good and you are warmed up, there is nothing wrong with throwing to max effort- you do have to push yourself if you ever want to throw heat later on- it just isn't magically there one day because you waited years to throw it. You wait that long you may never have it.

If a young pitcher , such as a 2014, is throwing loose, throwing strikes and getting batters out then there should be no concern at all. I continue to say we are making this game too difficult--the more scientific we get the more we get away from the basics of the game

I have always preached taking care of arm health due to my own mistakes as a kid. After outings, I ask my son what effort percentage he threw at so it is his estimate. Are there correlations between max effort and velocity? I would think so. At some point, I think 2014 needs to dial up percentage effort and am curious to see what impact it has on mechanics, arm strength and velocity. That said, I will not encourage it until he has increased arm strength through more throwing and long toss and is ready to dial it up, given our snowy winter. You are correct, 2014 nor I know what max effort is. Can you ask 2012 what his effort is before maxing out on his last couple of pitches and how it affects mechanics, velociy, arm strength, etc.

Thanks.

quote:

Are there correlations between max effort and velocity? I would think so. At some point, I think 2014 needs to dial up percentage effort and am curious to see what impact it has on mechanics, arm strength and velocity.

There is such a thing as overthrowing. It can affect mechanics and therefore velocity and arm safety. You want max effort within the confines of proper mechanics.

bacdorslider,
My son is a month younger than yours. We are about the same place in this baseball lifecyle. Our team has about 6 pitchers that throw in the 80's, so your son is right where he needs to be. The important thing is getting him visibility in showcases like the Perfect Game WWBA tournaments and the fall Underclassman showcase. I would expect your summer team will be coming to these.

We have been to both the USA tryouts and Perfect Game tournaments the last 2 years and I would certainly pick PG over USA. PG offers a lot more visibility and opportunities to be seen. I am not saying don't go to the USA tryouts if an opportunity provides itself, but would not sweat it if you can't. He would be in the 16U trials and competing against guys that are up to a year and a half older than him (Jan 1994). It can be hit or miss on making the team. If he does not make the team, the visibility stops. At least with PG events, you have running updates in their database and can add to it as he goes to future events.

Those are really just two different types of events, with different types of expected results.

Back to your original question, how much should they throw. That has always been the debate. Leo Mazzone and I have talked about this several times. A lot depends on whether in-season or off-season. In season, they need to throw regularly, even if it is only 60% effort between starts.

I believe in the off-season, they should throw more to work on mechanics and not as much about velocity. Coming into pre-season, work on long tossing and developing the strength back. As they are really starting to build for the season to start, having a good bullpen routine is important. Leo always made it a point of saying "Long tossing is throwing a distance further than what your normal throw distance is. If you are a pitcher, it is some distance further than 60'6"." His main point is don't long toss at a different arm angle and approach than you will in your normal playing position. Long tossing high arching throws is not as beneficial as throwing something shorter, on a line.

My son's pitcing instructor has been working with him since he was 9. He is a 37 year old LH'er who can still hit 90-92 on the gun, (came up in the Yankees Org with Jeter). He says guys want to throw hard, but they don't want to "Throw hard". Meaning they don't want to work at throwing hard, they just want it to happen naturally. He recommends the same that Leo did, and that is use the last 10-12 pitches of each pen (after they have gotten really warm and lathered up) to dial the effort up 90-95%. Don't focus as much on the accuracy as how to get yourself to dial it up. The only time your effort reaches 90-95% can't be in a game when you are facing a tough team.

I know there are a lot of different philosophies on this subject, and there will be some to strongly disagree on this approach, but everyone has to figure out what they believe and what they feel is the best approach for their kid. Sometimes that is dependent on the kid, and sometimes that changes as you learn different techniques and approaches.

Either way, I hope he has a great season. Let us know if he will be down this way playing this summer.

I do not believe you can throw hard without the intent to throw hard. There is no reason your mechanics have to suffer for you to throw as hard as you can throw. Learn to throw as hard as you can with mechanics that allow you to do it.

Pitchers should want to throw the ball through the catchers mitt. Hitters should want to mash the ball flat.

If you never throw as hard as you can. You will never throw has hard as you could have.

Coach May,
That is exactly the point. You have to work on that and pitch your bullpen sessions with a purpose. I see too many guys get in the pen and not have a purpose other than just throwing. I also see guys get in the pen and start throwing 95% from the first pitch. You need to start out about 70% and work up from there as you get loose and heated up. The 90+% effort does not need to start until the sweat breaks out.

Yes. The fact is what are you doing in the pen? You are working on your ability to actually pitch. Your doing the things in the pen you want to take to the mound with you. Would you take the hill in a game and throw 75% till you got heated up? No you get your pregame routine in. You stretch , jog , long toss , toss , then go to the pen to prepare to pitch.

When a pitcher goes to the pen he should prepare before he goes to the pen. He should be ready to pitch in the pen. How going through the motions in the pen prepares you to do something totally different on the mound I have no idea.

Its the same for catchers. Catch a pen with the same purpose and focus you would catch in a game. Otherwise its totally useless and does not equate into proper training and preparation.

Lot's of posts with no reference to pitch counts. If you want to avoid a Tommy John cut look up the guy who invented it. Dr James Andrews.

Remember Amatuer players are commodities. Bust an arm or a leg...next player you're up.

Professional players are investments. What is good enough for the Yankees or Red Sox should be good enough for your son. Not more and probably less.

I don't know where you guys are getting these percentages, but you can't be using a gun to measure them.

Most youth pitchers (that I have gunned over the years) throw within 5 mph of their max in a game. At 75 (80 max), that's 93% of max. Bullpens would not be much slower if any.

quote:

he is 14 and turns 15 in July. So he is an older 8th grader.

Wow..That is an older 8th grader. When my son was 15, he was in the 10th grade and part of the 11th grade. I sometimes wonder what an extra year or two of filling out would have done to his power numbers playing as a senior at 18 going on 19 as opposed to 16 going on 17.

Zomby,
My son is an 8th grader and is 14. He will be 15 in August.

This is more common now as Pre-K came more of an option 14/15 years ago.


Sultan,
These are "Effort" references, not speed.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

he is 14 and turns 15 in July. So he is an older 8th grader.

Wow..That is an older 8th grader. When my son was 15, he was in the 10th grade and part of the 11th grade. I sometimes wonder what an extra year or two of filling out would have done to his power numbers playing as a senior at 18 going on 19 as opposed to 16 going on 17.

Pretty true, my son is a 12 year old 7th grader, he won't turn 14 until after his 8th grade year is done.

He is playing with the older kids too. I worried he wouldn't keep up but he seems to be doing fine.