What velocity gain can I expect each year of high school? I know it depends but I do work out (don't have a long-toss program yet but can throw about 225' or so now).
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BB13:
There is no formula for this. Some kids come into HS throwing 80 and leave throwing 84. Others may come in at 70 and leave at 90. So much depends on your genetics and your growth timing.(as well as your age)
I can give you typical velocities.
Freshmen low 65 Freshmen high 80 Typical 72
Sr. low 78 Sr. High 95+ Typical 84
A lot also depends on where you live. In New England you don't have the weather that allows for year round baseball so I would suspect that the numbers might be lower. What is going to make a difference for you are:
1. Throw every day possible.
2. Get good pitching instruction.
3. Work out in the gym with a good program.
4. Throw long toss.
Good luck!
There is no formula for this. Some kids come into HS throwing 80 and leave throwing 84. Others may come in at 70 and leave at 90. So much depends on your genetics and your growth timing.(as well as your age)
I can give you typical velocities.
Freshmen low 65 Freshmen high 80 Typical 72
Sr. low 78 Sr. High 95+ Typical 84
A lot also depends on where you live. In New England you don't have the weather that allows for year round baseball so I would suspect that the numbers might be lower. What is going to make a difference for you are:
1. Throw every day possible.
2. Get good pitching instruction.
3. Work out in the gym with a good program.
4. Throw long toss.
Good luck!
Thank you, BOF. What about a weighted ball program. Does that help?
They do, but IMO you should start out with a good strength and conditioning program, get good instruction, get serious about long toss and then if you are doing all of the above you can do a weighted ball program. These should be done off season in the fall or winter with knowledgeable coaching, as a build up to your season.
Go through and search in the pitching forum you will find all kinds of stuff. As rule I would post these kinds of questions there.
Go through and search in the pitching forum you will find all kinds of stuff. As rule I would post these kinds of questions there.
Thank you.
It all depends on how much you want it, how hard you work at it and listen to those that know what they are talking about and ignoring the ones that don't!
It seems that every person will have their own ceiling in terms of velocity potential. You need to look at this in two ways.
1. Always keep pushing to that ceiling, because you don't know what it is. Get as strong as you can, flexible as you can, improve your mechanics as much as possible, condition your arm properly, all the things that it takes to maximize what you have.
2. There is more to pitching than velocity. Get as good as you can at all of the non-velocity things. In this way, if/when you hit that velocity ceiling, you also are at your overall pitching ceiling. Master your pitches, constantly work on your command, improve yourself mentally, seek help from those more knowledgeable.
The nice thing is that it is unlikely that a person will do all the work for one of those things and not the other, as long as he knows that both must be done. Work ethic is work ethic.
1. Always keep pushing to that ceiling, because you don't know what it is. Get as strong as you can, flexible as you can, improve your mechanics as much as possible, condition your arm properly, all the things that it takes to maximize what you have.
2. There is more to pitching than velocity. Get as good as you can at all of the non-velocity things. In this way, if/when you hit that velocity ceiling, you also are at your overall pitching ceiling. Master your pitches, constantly work on your command, improve yourself mentally, seek help from those more knowledgeable.
The nice thing is that it is unlikely that a person will do all the work for one of those things and not the other, as long as he knows that both must be done. Work ethic is work ethic.
While there is no definite answer as it varies from player to player, it all depends on the amount of work you put into your baseball training program. If you are constantly at the gym, playing long toss, and taking bullpen sessions you will see your velocity continue to improve. The more you put into your training program, the more you will get out of it. Just make sure you stay safe and don't overwork yourself. Cheers!
quote:Freshmen low 65 Freshmen high 80 Typical 72
Sr. low 78 Sr. High 95+ Typical 84
This is pretty true across the board in all states. Reading all of the PG player profiles and you see a pretty general trend with two different types-
1. Those elite freshman/ Sophmores who come into HS throwing mid to upper 80's and graduate throwing around 85-95+. This groups increase is less than a 10 mph from freshamn to senior year- usually about a 6-8 mph gain.
2. Freshman coming in throwing 70-74, steadily progress and graduate throwing mid to upper 80's, sometimes low 90's with a few in the mid to upper 90's. This group usually increases at least 10 mph through HS and generally most usually around 12-14 mph for an overall gain.
I would say for most who work hard, they will fall in that second category gaining about 10-15 mph on average from where they were at entering HS.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
BB13:
I can give you typical velocities.
Freshmen low 65 Freshmen high 80 Typical 72
Sr. low 78 Sr. High 95+ Typical 84
You went on to say it depends on where you live. But even in Southern Cal, 95+ is extremely rare. Typical senior fastball nationwide is about 78. Even the top schools 85+ is elite. Bum, Jr. as a freshman was about 68-70 and was hitting 89 as a senior, but there was only one other kid in town that threw harder than him.
So many variables. Some kids come in throwing very hard for their age and leave throwing average for their age. Some kids come in way more physically mature for their age than others. Some kids work very hard and are consistent with that work and some do not work hard. All I can go on is what I have seen in the players I have coached because I know how hard they have worked and what they have done. I have seen fresh sophs that we played against that you could see a lot of promise in. But then I dont know how hard they actually worked in the off season either.
Ex #1- Freshman 5-11 170 80-82
Extremely hard worker. Got on a long toss program, core program, baseball specific weight program, left throwing 89-92. Never pitched in college. Catches, plays 1B, Dh, Left HS 6-0 210. Will be a nice draft pick in just a few days. Tremendous arm.
Ex #2- Freshman 5-11 180 81-83 Came in the year after above player did. Would not work in the off season unless he was pushed. Was not consistent on a long toss program. Was in our weight training program but did not work hard. Left throwing 85-87 signed with a D2 program but didn't stick past the fall of Fresh year.
Ex #3- Freshman 6-2 165 85-88 Tremendous athlete with a loose electric arm. Bumped 90 several times as a fresh. Great kid but simply didnt like to work out. Worked out and did what he asked him to do but never would push himself. He was so talented he simply never felt the need to do more. Left 89-92 6-3 185. Drafted and was off the charts in his performance in milb. Quit the game because he said it just wasnt any fun.
Ex #4- Freshman LH 6-3 170 75-78. Tremendous athlete. Work ethic unmatched. You had to run him off the field. He pushed us to do more. Left 89-92. Drafted and pitching in the Major's. He was 6-4 195 as a sr. Throws mid 90's and bumped 98 last week in a ML game.
Ex #5- Freshman 5-7 140 70-72. Wanted it bad. No talent coming in. Worked his butt off. Long tossed, worked so hard in the weight room. As a Sr was 83-85. Played JUCO ball and his soph year was 87-89 and signed as a free agent with Chicago. Dropped down and was very successful in the minor leagues.
Ex #20 to #75 - Came in and didn't do anymore than they had to do. Never long tossed unless the team was long tossing. Found other things to do in the summer and fall. Came to work outs because they felt they should not because they couldnt wait to get there. Wanted the accolades that come from being a stud but didnt want to do what it took to be that guy. They took their natural progression and rode that. If it was good enough to earn some innings great. If it was not found a reason to explain why it was not.
I could give many more examples. But the bottom line is if a player has a passion to build a strong arm and develop his velocity to its max during the hs years he can do just that. His max will be determined by some factors outside his control. But the things he can control he can or he can decide its not worth the price.
No one can tell you what you can do. Only the person that has done all he can do to be all he can be can tell you that. And that person is looking you in the mirror. How bad do you want it? How hard are you willing to work for it? Only you know that. Will it make you a ML pitcher? Will it get you a College offer? I cant tell you that no one can. But I can tell you one thing. If you dont work and your not willing to work you will never be what you could have been. And when its all said and done as long as you know you were all you could be thats something you can hang your hat on. At least in my book.
Ex #1- Freshman 5-11 170 80-82
Extremely hard worker. Got on a long toss program, core program, baseball specific weight program, left throwing 89-92. Never pitched in college. Catches, plays 1B, Dh, Left HS 6-0 210. Will be a nice draft pick in just a few days. Tremendous arm.
Ex #2- Freshman 5-11 180 81-83 Came in the year after above player did. Would not work in the off season unless he was pushed. Was not consistent on a long toss program. Was in our weight training program but did not work hard. Left throwing 85-87 signed with a D2 program but didn't stick past the fall of Fresh year.
Ex #3- Freshman 6-2 165 85-88 Tremendous athlete with a loose electric arm. Bumped 90 several times as a fresh. Great kid but simply didnt like to work out. Worked out and did what he asked him to do but never would push himself. He was so talented he simply never felt the need to do more. Left 89-92 6-3 185. Drafted and was off the charts in his performance in milb. Quit the game because he said it just wasnt any fun.
Ex #4- Freshman LH 6-3 170 75-78. Tremendous athlete. Work ethic unmatched. You had to run him off the field. He pushed us to do more. Left 89-92. Drafted and pitching in the Major's. He was 6-4 195 as a sr. Throws mid 90's and bumped 98 last week in a ML game.
Ex #5- Freshman 5-7 140 70-72. Wanted it bad. No talent coming in. Worked his butt off. Long tossed, worked so hard in the weight room. As a Sr was 83-85. Played JUCO ball and his soph year was 87-89 and signed as a free agent with Chicago. Dropped down and was very successful in the minor leagues.
Ex #20 to #75 - Came in and didn't do anymore than they had to do. Never long tossed unless the team was long tossing. Found other things to do in the summer and fall. Came to work outs because they felt they should not because they couldnt wait to get there. Wanted the accolades that come from being a stud but didnt want to do what it took to be that guy. They took their natural progression and rode that. If it was good enough to earn some innings great. If it was not found a reason to explain why it was not.
I could give many more examples. But the bottom line is if a player has a passion to build a strong arm and develop his velocity to its max during the hs years he can do just that. His max will be determined by some factors outside his control. But the things he can control he can or he can decide its not worth the price.
No one can tell you what you can do. Only the person that has done all he can do to be all he can be can tell you that. And that person is looking you in the mirror. How bad do you want it? How hard are you willing to work for it? Only you know that. Will it make you a ML pitcher? Will it get you a College offer? I cant tell you that no one can. But I can tell you one thing. If you dont work and your not willing to work you will never be what you could have been. And when its all said and done as long as you know you were all you could be thats something you can hang your hat on. At least in my book.
I looked on the Jaeger website but didn't find the answer. Also checked here.
For those that LT can you tell me how your program worked? school ball ended 2 weeks ago and my son has just started summer ball. Oh, he is a Freshman.
Say he starts one game a week. When does he LT? Any bullpen or mound work? just trying to see what others have done. thanks.
For those that LT can you tell me how your program worked? school ball ended 2 weeks ago and my son has just started summer ball. Oh, he is a Freshman.
Say he starts one game a week. When does he LT? Any bullpen or mound work? just trying to see what others have done. thanks.
I would purchase the "thrive on throwing CD" and some J bands.
You can go to youtube and get a lot of it also.
The amount of work he does will be dependent on his condition, and how much time he has. I would start every other day and build up to every day. Really work hard and long on off days, and days he does bullpens go lighter. On pitching days it should be his normal warm up routine. After pitching it is really dependent on how he feels. Mine would throw lightly days after pitching and then get back at it two days after. A lot of this is dependent on how your son feels so he just needs to do what is best for himself.
You can go to youtube and get a lot of it also.
The amount of work he does will be dependent on his condition, and how much time he has. I would start every other day and build up to every day. Really work hard and long on off days, and days he does bullpens go lighter. On pitching days it should be his normal warm up routine. After pitching it is really dependent on how he feels. Mine would throw lightly days after pitching and then get back at it two days after. A lot of this is dependent on how your son feels so he just needs to do what is best for himself.
quote:You went on to say it depends on where you live. But even in Southern Cal, 95+ is extremely rare. Typical senior fastball nationwide is about 78. Even the top schools 85+ is elite. Bum, Jr. as a freshman was about 68-70 and was hitting 89 as a senior, but there was only one other kid in town that threw harder than him.
I am a firm believer that what state you live in (climate) doesn't have much effect on what velocity you throw with. I agree with Bum that the typical varsity fastball is around 78 mph pretty much everywhere. I believe that most HS pitchers just don't put in the time necessary and make the changes or do the right things to build velocity.
The hardest throwing senior in our conference (4A) was around 86mph this season. He has been clocked in the low 90's last year, but we didn't see it this year (his Dad actually had a stalker at the games). Most of the decent senior pitchers we saw were in the 78-82 mph range. Few were over that velocity and few were under that velocity. The team who won the 4A state title had a pitcher who can throw in the low 90's. Them guys are pretty rare though no matter where you live. Breaking through the mid 80's into the upper 80's and even low 90's is pretty hard no matter where one lives. Generally we see more flamethrowers coming out of Texas and California because more people live there and doesn't really have to do much with a warmer climate.
Gingerbread, you are exactly right. Warm weather has nothing to do with it. The stats show that pitchers from Washington state (where my son attended h.s.) are drafted per capita at the same rate as kids from California. I don't think it is a warm weather-cold weather issue. In fact, the elite players in the north used the offseason to their advantage, working out, doing plyometrics, weight lifting, indoor bullpens to work on mechanics, etc. Some places like Florida have more elite players because they have a lot of hispanic kids who gravitate to baseball.
Gingerbread Man,
I happen to think you’re pretty much right on target too, but I can tell you haven’t had to deal a whole lot with SoCal, Tx, or Fl people.
I’m here in central NorCal where we have roughly 150-200 schools playing baseball in 7 different divisions. Our school is in the large school division, and this season played 31 games agains18 different teams, 4 of which were DII schools, 1 a DIII school, 1 a DIV school, and 1 from another state that I think was a big school.
In all those games, and some were against eventual league or section winners, there’s no way we saw more than 5 kids who could touch 90. 1 is a legit 90 cruiser, but the other heat bringers were much like the kid on our team who did it. As a Jr he occasionally touched 90 or 91, but this season with anywhere from 2 to 12 guns on him, every time he pitched, he didn’t throw any harder, and in fact was much more erratic and didn’t pitch nearly as well as he did last year.
Most of the other top arms had lots of eyeballs on them, but the division they played in had a lot to do with how dominating they were.
10 of 47 hits were xbh hits. 64 K’s out of 250 batters. Meanwhile, another kid, virtually the same size, 6’5”/190 and throwing virtually the same velocity, but on a DVI championship team faced 84 batters, only 2 of the 18 hits he gave up were XBHs, and he struck out 48 of the 84 batters he faced. Meanwhile, the kid who was by far the hardest thrower in the area, face 210 batters, gave up 39 hits, 5 doubles, and struck out 70 batters.
Its interesting to look at those numbers in terms of relations.
Batters per K.
Our pitcher – 1 per 3.9 batters
The DVI pitcher – 1 per 1.75 batters
The stud – 1 per 3 batters.
So what happens is, a very skewed sense of what’s going on can take place. In fact, what usually happens is, the best hitters don’t fare as well against “pitchers”. FI, we have a kid on our team who hits 84-85 on a good pitch, but he’s a pitcher. He’s struck out the same number of batters as the other kid on our team, but he’s done it against 8 fewer batters, and against far superior competition.
In short, you’re 100% correct. The reason more flame throwers come from places like Ca, Tx, or Fl, is simply because they have more players. And also, how “dominant” any particular pitcher looks, has much more to do with who he’s throwing against than how hard he throws.
I happen to think you’re pretty much right on target too, but I can tell you haven’t had to deal a whole lot with SoCal, Tx, or Fl people.
I’m here in central NorCal where we have roughly 150-200 schools playing baseball in 7 different divisions. Our school is in the large school division, and this season played 31 games agains18 different teams, 4 of which were DII schools, 1 a DIII school, 1 a DIV school, and 1 from another state that I think was a big school.
In all those games, and some were against eventual league or section winners, there’s no way we saw more than 5 kids who could touch 90. 1 is a legit 90 cruiser, but the other heat bringers were much like the kid on our team who did it. As a Jr he occasionally touched 90 or 91, but this season with anywhere from 2 to 12 guns on him, every time he pitched, he didn’t throw any harder, and in fact was much more erratic and didn’t pitch nearly as well as he did last year.
Most of the other top arms had lots of eyeballs on them, but the division they played in had a lot to do with how dominating they were.
10 of 47 hits were xbh hits. 64 K’s out of 250 batters. Meanwhile, another kid, virtually the same size, 6’5”/190 and throwing virtually the same velocity, but on a DVI championship team faced 84 batters, only 2 of the 18 hits he gave up were XBHs, and he struck out 48 of the 84 batters he faced. Meanwhile, the kid who was by far the hardest thrower in the area, face 210 batters, gave up 39 hits, 5 doubles, and struck out 70 batters.
Its interesting to look at those numbers in terms of relations.
Batters per K.
Our pitcher – 1 per 3.9 batters
The DVI pitcher – 1 per 1.75 batters
The stud – 1 per 3 batters.
So what happens is, a very skewed sense of what’s going on can take place. In fact, what usually happens is, the best hitters don’t fare as well against “pitchers”. FI, we have a kid on our team who hits 84-85 on a good pitch, but he’s a pitcher. He’s struck out the same number of batters as the other kid on our team, but he’s done it against 8 fewer batters, and against far superior competition.
In short, you’re 100% correct. The reason more flame throwers come from places like Ca, Tx, or Fl, is simply because they have more players. And also, how “dominant” any particular pitcher looks, has much more to do with who he’s throwing against than how hard he throws.
Stats.
Those numbers, while interesting to you and me, don't mean squat to a college coach. Unfortunately, like it or not, all D1 coaches care about is velocity. It seems like the magic number for them is 88 for a RH pitcher. Once you get over this, then they will look at the other “stuff”. Don’t get me wrong there is nothing wrong with being a fine HS pitcher, sitting at 84, being successful, being the number 1, and having a great HS career. The facts are this - those kids are NOT going to pitch in college. The logic is pretty simple, “I can teach a kid to pitch, but I cannot teach him to throw 90”.
So for all of you out there who think K’s, K’s/BB, BA/pitch, PC/IP, ERA, WHIP, bla bla bla ad nauseum, they don’t men a thing until you hit 88!
The earlier kids (and their dads who are helping them) get this in their heads the better off they are. Work on your fastball, all of the time, every day, relentlessly. Never ever give up on it - EVER!. I laugh when I read about pitching in the preHS forum and how great little Johnny’s curveball is at 14, 15, 16, whatever…. It means nothing without a MINIMUM 88MPH fastball.
PS: you will need the other stuff eventually, but get to 88 as your first priority.
Those numbers, while interesting to you and me, don't mean squat to a college coach. Unfortunately, like it or not, all D1 coaches care about is velocity. It seems like the magic number for them is 88 for a RH pitcher. Once you get over this, then they will look at the other “stuff”. Don’t get me wrong there is nothing wrong with being a fine HS pitcher, sitting at 84, being successful, being the number 1, and having a great HS career. The facts are this - those kids are NOT going to pitch in college. The logic is pretty simple, “I can teach a kid to pitch, but I cannot teach him to throw 90”.
So for all of you out there who think K’s, K’s/BB, BA/pitch, PC/IP, ERA, WHIP, bla bla bla ad nauseum, they don’t men a thing until you hit 88!
The earlier kids (and their dads who are helping them) get this in their heads the better off they are. Work on your fastball, all of the time, every day, relentlessly. Never ever give up on it - EVER!. I laugh when I read about pitching in the preHS forum and how great little Johnny’s curveball is at 14, 15, 16, whatever…. It means nothing without a MINIMUM 88MPH fastball.
PS: you will need the other stuff eventually, but get to 88 as your first priority.
BOF, I would say 86 minimum for a RHP and 84 minimum for a LHP (D1) but any kid over 80 can pitch small college baseball at some level.
But I don't want to detract from your point, because it is a good one. Any player or parent that thinks junk balls or "control" will get them an offer just forget about it.
But I don't want to detract from your point, because it is a good one. Any player or parent that thinks junk balls or "control" will get them an offer just forget about it.
Agreed BUM. I also agree with the warm vs cold climate kids, it just means that the cold climate kids have to be more tenacious in their training. (like your son) He REALLY had to want it to be out there in the snow throwing baseballs. It is also a Ca thing as far as Velo, most Ca schools will not look at 86ers.
Velocity is King, especially as it pertains to RHP's...it's difficult to dispute that. However, there are a few 83-87 (touch upper 80's) Righties pitching at the D-1 level and succeeding. The school my son will be attending next Fall has one of them. He's the number three pitcher on the staff, and doesn't light up the radar guns, but I believe his career record on the bump is now 16-3 (for a D-1 team w/39 wins this season). Clemson (41 wins) has a pitcher from So Cal that received substantial time on the hill this season for the Tigers. He happens to be another mid 80's RHP, but gets the job done. What do both of these kids have in common? Great change ups, and excellent command of three pitches. Well they be drafted with mid-80's fast balls? Probably not. Can they get the job done at the highest level in college ball? You bet; they're proving it.
Make it a priority to work on your Arm Strength, but do not neglect everything else. My son had a HS teammate this season that easily sat 89-91 in the winter/fall. His problem was that he couldn't throw strikes, so unfortunately he didn't pitch a single inning during the regular spring season. His electric arm has been wasted thus far, and I sincerely hope that he finds a good PC that can get him on track at the JC he'll attend next fall.
Make it a priority to work on your Arm Strength, but do not neglect everything else. My son had a HS teammate this season that easily sat 89-91 in the winter/fall. His problem was that he couldn't throw strikes, so unfortunately he didn't pitch a single inning during the regular spring season. His electric arm has been wasted thus far, and I sincerely hope that he finds a good PC that can get him on track at the JC he'll attend next fall.
Bum I am glad you posted those last comments. When your being evaluated at a showcase or a game the first thing your going to have to do is show a certain level of velo. Period. NO if ANDS or BUTS. It starts at the top and works down. If you show up throwing 81 from the RS and you have a book of stats showing your era is awesome and you have won more games than anyone at your HS , sorry its not going to matter to those coaches. The harder you throw the more projectable you are the less your command matters to those same coaches. The closer you are to that threshold of velo they are looking for the more important your command is.
Some simply do not want to hear that but its simply the way it is. Once those guys are on a college campus and in the program it will come down to who can command and who can get guys out.
Some simply do not want to hear that but its simply the way it is. Once those guys are on a college campus and in the program it will come down to who can command and who can get guys out.
quote:Originally posted by bsbl247:
Make it a priority to work on your Arm Strength, but do not neglect everything else. My son had a HS teammate this season that easily sat 89-91 in the winter/fall. His problem was that he couldn't throw strikes, so unfortunately he didn't pitch a single inning during the regular spring season.
Of course, you're right but the premise is an old one. That the guys with the highest velocities have control issues. Actually, my bet is just the opposite is true because it takes perfected mechanics to reach higher velocities.
My son struggled with control last year but it had nothing to do with how hard he threw. Coach at his old college had him migrate from a curve to a slider and that just didn't work for him (why I'll never know because he always had a great curveball). He went back to his curve 1/2 way through summer ball and it took awhile to get his feel back. He says now he's back where he should be.. even better now because he's got a dandy change. My point is, there are a lot of reasons why control can be an issue and velocity has nothing to do with it. Like I've said before:
Velocity is not the show. It is the ticket to the show.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
I laugh when I read about pitching in the preHS forum and how great little Johnny’s curveball is at 14, 15, 16, whatever…. It means nothing without a MINIMUM 88MPH fastball.
PS: you will need the other stuff eventually, but get to 88 as your first priority.
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
Bum I am glad you posted those last comments. When your being evaluated at a showcase or a game the first thing your going to have to do is show a certain level of velo. Period. NO if ANDS or BUTS. It starts at the top and works down. If you show up throwing 81 from the RS and you have a book of stats showing your era is awesome and you have won more games than anyone at your HS , sorry its not going to matter to those coaches. The harder you throw the more projectable you are the less your command matters to those same coaches. The closer you are to that threshold of velo they are looking for the more important your command is.
Some simply do not want to hear that but its simply the way it is. Once those guys are on a college campus and in the program it will come down to who can command and who can get guys out.
Story time!
First showcase mine ever went to...two skilled local pitchers with off the charts stats and good velocity took their turns...and for the first time ever, could not find the plate, at all. I was astounded how ragged they were. Walked numerous batters. Came to find out later that they had both been coached to throw fastballs as hard as they could with little regard for the plate, just as fast as possible...in order to register a high velocity reading. Obvioulsy don't advocate that, but it was an eye opener. By the way, one went to Cal, One to Texas.
44.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:quote:Originally posted by bsbl247:
Make it a priority to work on your Arm Strength, but do not neglect everything else. My son had a HS teammate this season that easily sat 89-91 in the winter/fall. His problem was that he couldn't throw strikes, so unfortunately he didn't pitch a single inning during the regular spring season.
Of course, you're right but the premise is an old one. That the guys with the highest velocities have control issues. Actually, my bet is just the opposite is true because it takes perfected mechanics to reach higher velocities.
My son struggled with control last year but it had nothing to do with how hard he threw. Coach at his old college had him migrate from a curve to a slider and that just didn't work for him (why I'll never know because he always had a great curveball). He went back to his curve 1/2 way through summer ball and it took awhile to get his feel back. He says now he's back where he should be.. even better now because he's got a dandy change. My point is, there are a lot of reasons why control can be an issue and velocity has nothing to do with it. Like I've said before:
Velocity is not the show. It is the ticket to the show.
You're absolutely right Bum. I just didn't want the OP to think that you need to have a 90+ fastball to succeed at a high level in D-1/D-2 baseball. The young man from my son's HS team that I referenced is a big strong kid 6'4", guessing 255? He has a tough time repeating his delivery...but if he conditions properly, and figures out his mechanical issues, great things are in store for him.
.
I hear ya' 44. I'm in that same (gravy)boat near every night!
Dang...there's my round steak! Been lookin' for that since Sunday!
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- " ...could not find the plate, at all."
I hear ya' 44. I'm in that same (gravy)boat near every night!
Dang...there's my round steak! Been lookin' for that since Sunday!
.
quote:Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
." ...could not find the plate, at all."
I hear ya' 44. I'm in that same (gravy)boat near every night!
Dang...there's my round steak! Been lookin' for that since Sunday!
.
Woody,
This pic looks like it's from the kitchen of one of those Trailers that you posted in another thread???
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
Bum I am glad you posted those last comments. When your being evaluated at a showcase or a game the first thing your going to have to do is show a certain level of velo. Period. NO if ANDS or BUTS. It starts at the top and works down. If you show up throwing 81 from the RS and you have a book of stats showing your era is awesome and you have won more games than anyone at your HS , sorry its not going to matter to those coaches. The harder you throw the more projectable you are the less your command matters to those same coaches. The closer you are to that threshold of velo they are looking for the more important your command is.
Some simply do not want to hear that but its simply the way it is. Once those guys are on a college campus and in the program it will come down to who can command and who can get guys out.
While I was never going to get drafted or anything of that sort, I routinely pitched 80-81 in front of scouts and had a fair amount of D1 interest, including offers. Never threw a gunned pitch above 84. These schools weren't what I was looking for academically and I was definitely leery of the big, impersonal D1 program (having heard the horror stories). I'm a right-handed pitcher.
I don't mean to diminish the value of velocity and I certainly would love to have more of it (and wish I had worked both harder and smarter when I was younger) but you may work hard and just not get it. I don't think you have to make either thing a priority, they should be compatible and neither should take from the other. I've also found, personally, I could hardly ever make the pitch faster even when I tried to throw faster than my typical game speed.
And I agree that having more velocity has nothing to do with less command. The only reason it seems that way is because we remember every kid that naturally throws 90 but doesn't know where it's going. "Oh, what a wasted talent," etc. Kids that throw 80 and don't know where it's going learn how to hit.
If you were getting offers with a 81 mph fastball from the r/s by D1 schools then it is simply a big difference in the D1 schools I am familiar with than the ones you are. I know several D2 programs that would never think twice about a 81 mph RHP.
Please don't take this post as being negative, critical or me trying to say your not being truthful. I will take your word for it. But I have been coaching showcase baseball for several years as well as hs. I have been at the camps, showcase events, spent several hours, days , weeks with numerous college coaches from D1 -D3. I have never seen a college coach at the D1 level or D2 level offer a 81 mph rhp or even show interest. LH? Yes a few mid majors if the kid had a quirk in the delivery ie - drop down guy with great command etc.
I think in order to throw hard you have to have the intent to throw hard. You have to train to throw harder. In order to reach your potential at a given time. There is a short window of opportunity were talking about here. You must be an exceptional pitcher with a ton of positive intangibles. Again please dont take this post the wrong way I am certainly not calling anyone out here.
Please don't take this post as being negative, critical or me trying to say your not being truthful. I will take your word for it. But I have been coaching showcase baseball for several years as well as hs. I have been at the camps, showcase events, spent several hours, days , weeks with numerous college coaches from D1 -D3. I have never seen a college coach at the D1 level or D2 level offer a 81 mph rhp or even show interest. LH? Yes a few mid majors if the kid had a quirk in the delivery ie - drop down guy with great command etc.
I think in order to throw hard you have to have the intent to throw hard. You have to train to throw harder. In order to reach your potential at a given time. There is a short window of opportunity were talking about here. You must be an exceptional pitcher with a ton of positive intangibles. Again please dont take this post the wrong way I am certainly not calling anyone out here.
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You're quite observant bsbl247. And you'll notice there is some trash interspersed with my dirty dishes. And you'll remember there are forty-five steps down to the dumpster. And those same forty-five back up to my La-Z-Boy®. I'm not too motivated to take out the trash...and that's why I hire someone to do it for me.
The delivery kid from Pete's Pizza & Pinball Palace©, after delivering my nightly pie and then receiving a pair of quarters as a tip, takes my trash and pitches it into the dumpster for me.
He never gripes. I've convinced him I'm as good as a personal trainer. And he gets paid for the training! You should see his quads...they're huge! They'd easily split the seams on Gov. Christie's slacks. Same for Rosie O'Donell's pantaloons. Nah...that's a fib. Aside from Rosie there's no one who can strain those bloomers. Anyway...they're big.
I'd better be careful though. If he keeps it up he'll soon find out there's more money to be made plodding away as a plowhorse than pitching pies as a pizza swamper. I better cut those pies back to four times per week.
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- "This pic looks like it's from the kitchen of one of those Trailers that you posted in another thread???"
You're quite observant bsbl247. And you'll notice there is some trash interspersed with my dirty dishes. And you'll remember there are forty-five steps down to the dumpster. And those same forty-five back up to my La-Z-Boy®. I'm not too motivated to take out the trash...and that's why I hire someone to do it for me.
The delivery kid from Pete's Pizza & Pinball Palace©, after delivering my nightly pie and then receiving a pair of quarters as a tip, takes my trash and pitches it into the dumpster for me.
He never gripes. I've convinced him I'm as good as a personal trainer. And he gets paid for the training! You should see his quads...they're huge! They'd easily split the seams on Gov. Christie's slacks. Same for Rosie O'Donell's pantaloons. Nah...that's a fib. Aside from Rosie there's no one who can strain those bloomers. Anyway...they're big.
I'd better be careful though. If he keeps it up he'll soon find out there's more money to be made plodding away as a plowhorse than pitching pies as a pizza swamper. I better cut those pies back to four times per week.
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Jpontiac: You are a great great kid and I love your posts here, but my son just finished the recruiting process so this is first hand experience, EVERY SINGLE kid (RHP at least) that my son was around this year that got recruited by D1’s out here in the West was at least touching 88. It happened to my son, it was unreal, here is a 185lb long limbed 6’4” kid that has a perfect pitchers body, with tons of “projectability” and yes he was getting lots of “inquires” & “interest” when he was 84-86, but not a lot of solid offers. He goes to an event and throws 87-89 and literally the phone starts ringing WHILE he is throwing. It was surreal. CaDad knows a kid (who is a friend of my son) who has great pitchability and has touched 89 and has NO offers. Trust me this kid can pitch!
So coach May and BUM are spot on in this regard. Focus on VELOCITY, even if you have to exclude some of the other pitches, you can learn to pitch if you can throw hard, but you will NEVER get the opportunity to pitch (at least in college at the D1 level) if you don’t throw hard.
This is really focused on the young kids coming into HS, and the dads of some of the younger kids reading this thread. FOR GET ABOUT CURVEBALLS!!!!! LEARN TO THROW AND COMMAND A FAST BALL. Period end of story!
Cheers I’m off my soap box now.
So coach May and BUM are spot on in this regard. Focus on VELOCITY, even if you have to exclude some of the other pitches, you can learn to pitch if you can throw hard, but you will NEVER get the opportunity to pitch (at least in college at the D1 level) if you don’t throw hard.
This is really focused on the young kids coming into HS, and the dads of some of the younger kids reading this thread. FOR GET ABOUT CURVEBALLS!!!!! LEARN TO THROW AND COMMAND A FAST BALL. Period end of story!
Cheers I’m off my soap box now.
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
If you were getting offers with a 81 mph fastball from the r/s by D1 schools then it is simply a big difference in the D1 schools I am familiar with than the ones you are. I know several D2 programs that would never think twice about a 81 mph RHP.
Please don't take this post as being negative, critical or me trying to say your not being truthful. I will take your word for it. But I have been coaching showcase baseball for several years as well as hs. I have been at the camps, showcase events, spent several hours, days , weeks with numerous college coaches from D1 -D3. I have never seen a college coach at the D1 level or D2 level offer a 81 mph rhp or even show interest. LH? Yes a few mid majors if the kid had a quirk in the delivery ie - drop down guy with great command etc.
I think in order to throw hard you have to have the intent to throw hard. You have to train to throw harder. In order to reach your potential at a given time. There is a short window of opportunity were talking about here. You must be an exceptional pitcher with a ton of positive intangibles. Again please dont take this post the wrong way I am certainly not calling anyone out here.
Each coach talked about the movement on my fastball, I throw a sinker. I throw just above sidearm (and used to have a bit of a herky jerky motion), which may count as a quirk as previously mentioned. Perhaps there was some belief that I could throw harder if I threw straighter or more overhand or something of that sort. Maybe I was wanted to raise team GPA? Who knows. I was told stories about their teams getting beaten by guys that threw at speeds like me that moved the ball around in a similar way.
Of course, I was a bit skeptical as well because I didn't believe I'd ever get a shot at a D1 school. That, along with a greater commitment to my academics, really made those things more like white noise to me. I felt like a last minute "we still have a spot left and we like you more than an empty roster spot" than anything else, based on the things you mentioned.
I should also say that I did not see what every coach/showcase has gunned me at. The days I've been at 84 (there have been enough that it's plausible that it's happened at times in which I didn't have access to radar gun readings) it has always been on Stalkers. If you believe that Jugs can be a little faster, I suppose any of these coaches could have thought I was an 86 mph sinkerballer (or at least thought I could be).
Don't mean to detract from the main point of all these posts, just wanted to show how being excellent at one of the peripherals can occasionally stand out even if velocity is lacking.
Edit: Wanted to also agree with BOF that it's all about quality of pitches, not quantity. Your fastball, needless to say, is supposed to be fast. Have to work to gain velocity. There are other peripheral parts, like movement and things like that that you can come across naturally or see as useful down the line. Keep working on fastballs until you get to a level where your good fastball in a good place won't be enough to some hitters. Personally, I'd say that is when you add a changeup, but that's a completely different discussion.
quote:Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
The delivery kid from Pete's Pizza & Pinball Palace©, after delivering my nightly pie and then receiving a pair of quarters as a tip, takes my trash and pitches it into the dumpster for me.
You're insane, dude. And I love it!!!!!
quote:I think in order to throw hard you have to have the intent to throw hard. You have to train to throw harder. In order to reach your potential at a given time. There is a short window of opportunity were talking about here. You must be an exceptional pitcher with a ton of positive intangibles. Again please dont take this post the wrong way I am certainly not calling anyone out here.
I totally agree here. I have told quite a few kids over the years that if they want to learn how to throw hard, they have to practice throwing harder. At my son's HS practices I have challenged my son to go out, warm up and put in an honest effort on throwing the ball- don't be like some of the other clowns on the team trying to throw some weird screwball or just lobbing it back and forth.
Warm up properly, stretch out good, start slow and build up some heat in the muscles and then put in an honest effort to work on throwing harder and having good rythm and mechanics. I see several guys on the team who want to be the "star" but don't want to put in the required effort nor have the real desire and work ethic required to be the "star". Sure, they are blessed with some genetics and the good Lord has blessed them with an ability- a talent, but they just don't want it bad enough to then put forth the required effort and have the mindset to achieve a goal through pushing themselves everytime they go out on the field.
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Here's a little known fact. Well it's actually a totally unknown fact. It's really one of my fibs prancing around with its credibility cap on backwards. I tried out for the part of Scanlon, the bearded guy.
I was too young and couldn't grow a beard even if the life of a famous portly and Portland born, now deceased, chef's life depended on it! First name James by the way. Now I'm the portly gent...and still beardless.
But by jibbers how I made an impression on the casting director. He asked me how many hours they were allowing me to be away from the ward. My confused look was all the answer he needed. Unfortunately my Hall Monitor and Chalkboard Eraser Clapping and Cleaning duties did not allow me to participate further. What a shame. Opportunity lost. I think I could have easily lived up to a nickname of "Nuts".
The upside of course was that since I wasn't hirsuitable enough to be in the cast the blackboards at Oregon State University's Fairbanks Hall were nearly pristine and nary a student dared to even come close to a trot in Fairbank's treacherous hallways. Upon graduating I received the prestigious President's Praise Award: Top Hall Cop along with the case of dust masks they promised years earlier.
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- "You're insane, dude. And I love it!!!!!"
Here's a little known fact. Well it's actually a totally unknown fact. It's really one of my fibs prancing around with its credibility cap on backwards. I tried out for the part of Scanlon, the bearded guy.
I was too young and couldn't grow a beard even if the life of a famous portly and Portland born, now deceased, chef's life depended on it! First name James by the way. Now I'm the portly gent...and still beardless.
But by jibbers how I made an impression on the casting director. He asked me how many hours they were allowing me to be away from the ward. My confused look was all the answer he needed. Unfortunately my Hall Monitor and Chalkboard Eraser Clapping and Cleaning duties did not allow me to participate further. What a shame. Opportunity lost. I think I could have easily lived up to a nickname of "Nuts".
The upside of course was that since I wasn't hirsuitable enough to be in the cast the blackboards at Oregon State University's Fairbanks Hall were nearly pristine and nary a student dared to even come close to a trot in Fairbank's treacherous hallways. Upon graduating I received the prestigious President's Praise Award: Top Hall Cop along with the case of dust masks they promised years earlier.
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Two 84/85 RHP just signed D2. As far as I know, neither had any D1 followers or interest.
Yesterday the Cardinals called up a 22 year old RHP AA pitcher who has touched 100. While he didn't fair too well, and needs lots of work, they didn't call up the 25,26 year old RHP in AAA who currently throws more accurately (with more use of the off speed stuff and bb ball and been there longer) with a better record but doesn't have the speed.
Regardless of the reason (some say it was to show off their version of Chapman possibly for trade later), already placed on the 40 man roster when he got traded this off season to them, he got called up.
I think that this is a perfect example of how they feel about velo for pitchers in pro ball. Yes there are many OLDER more experienced guys who throw slower and win because of experience, but speed gets their attention.
Anyone who thinks that not developing the FB should not be the #1 priority, even at a young age, just doesn't get it.
Regardless of the reason (some say it was to show off their version of Chapman possibly for trade later), already placed on the 40 man roster when he got traded this off season to them, he got called up.
I think that this is a perfect example of how they feel about velo for pitchers in pro ball. Yes there are many OLDER more experienced guys who throw slower and win because of experience, but speed gets their attention.
Anyone who thinks that not developing the FB should not be the #1 priority, even at a young age, just doesn't get it.
What about the lefty? If a lefty is throwing an 85 mph to 86 mph fast ball and has a nasty change up and curve ball what have the results been for these pitchers in college ball recruiting?
quote:Originally posted by rosin bag:
What about the lefty? If a lefty is throwing an 85 mph to 86 mph fast ball and has a nasty change up and curve ball what have the results been for these pitchers in college ball recruiting?
Gold.
This is a very interesting thread! I'm going to take it in a bit of a different direction...add a cautionary tale to it.
I certainly agree with the premise that Velocity is the ticket to the show. Even better if you can match the velocity to a kid with size. Just look at the size of the pitchers drafted this week. Ya for every 9 pitchers drafted 6' 2" or taller there is a 5' 10" kid but 90% are big projectable kids. Having both is the golden ticket I guess!!
Just be careful when building velocity and using that velocity!! If you throw too hard all the time your arm can fail you and breakdown!! Son is currently learning that the hard way after his TJ surgery. Even if you have natural velocity you have to put in the work to build up your strength and body to handle it! Son was a 15yr old 6" 2" tall 190lb LHP as a freshman last year and throwing low to mid 80's. However he didn't put in the work to build up his strength and didn't realize he had a weak shoulder that led to his mechanics breaking down just enough while throwing hard and whammo...elbow couldn't handle it and UCL was torn over the summer...TJ surgery in December. Still working on strengthening that shoulder before starting throwing program.
So not only workout to improve velocity but workout to protect your body and prepare it for the velocity!! Be sure to add the throwers 10 program to your workouts..you'll be glad you did!
I certainly agree with the premise that Velocity is the ticket to the show. Even better if you can match the velocity to a kid with size. Just look at the size of the pitchers drafted this week. Ya for every 9 pitchers drafted 6' 2" or taller there is a 5' 10" kid but 90% are big projectable kids. Having both is the golden ticket I guess!!
Just be careful when building velocity and using that velocity!! If you throw too hard all the time your arm can fail you and breakdown!! Son is currently learning that the hard way after his TJ surgery. Even if you have natural velocity you have to put in the work to build up your strength and body to handle it! Son was a 15yr old 6" 2" tall 190lb LHP as a freshman last year and throwing low to mid 80's. However he didn't put in the work to build up his strength and didn't realize he had a weak shoulder that led to his mechanics breaking down just enough while throwing hard and whammo...elbow couldn't handle it and UCL was torn over the summer...TJ surgery in December. Still working on strengthening that shoulder before starting throwing program.
So not only workout to improve velocity but workout to protect your body and prepare it for the velocity!! Be sure to add the throwers 10 program to your workouts..you'll be glad you did!