Velocity Increase

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

2019Dad posted:

bacdorslider posted:

are these cruising numbers?

Nope. Top velo on that particular day (just like a PG or PBR headline number). Like RealGreen's, my son's numbers are also in games, including scrimmages. Son's HS varsity has a Stalker Pro and charts every pitch in a game or scrimmage (though they do not use radar for JV or frosh).

FWIW, and I don't know if this is generally true but it has held for my son so far -- a new top velo, which is an outlier at the time, becomes more "normal" as he continues to develop. For example, this past February he pitched in a varsity scrimmage and threw one pitch at 86, but otherwise his high that day was 84. Now some time has passed, and 86 is normal -- on Saturday he threw 13 fastballs and I think 86 was the velo on 5 of them. So now 90 is an outlier for him (the next highest pitch on Saturday was 88). So it seems like there's a jump, and then sort of a catch-up period.

I don't know if I'm explaining it well, or if you have seen that with any of your sons' development.

Explaining it very well, '19Dad.  RHP son has added 2 mph each year the past couple years.  I see it in the summer time as that is when he focuses on pitching workouts most.  One year's "touch" velo becomes next year's sitting velo.  Hoping he's got at least a couple more of those years in him.

I would concur as to my '18's progression. He seems to sit where his previous seasons peak was. He's added 15lbs since July and T93 last summer! Here's to continuing the trend!

If a pitcher throws one legitimate pitch 90 some MPH, it means he is capable of throwing that velocity again. That is a good thing, but It doesn't mean he will average that velocity in the future, but it is possible.  Truth is you can pretty much bet you weren't lucky enough to see a pitcher on the very best day of his life, or worst day for that matter.  So you could assume that pitcher is capable of doing better.  And with any young pitcher you can assume he will get better as well as add some velocity in the future.  Gains in velocity can be very different from one pitcher to the next. We have seen very large gains in one year or even less.  We have also seen very small or even no gains in one year or more.  Also each pitcher is different when it comes to the timing of these increases in velocity.  For some it could be a steady climb over four or five years.  Some make major improvements at different ages.  Some don't develop their top velocity until college years.  Others have reached their limit by age 16 or 17. 

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter what happened with one pitcher, there is no average that means anything. Because it has no bearing on what might happen to a different pitcher. It is kind of like the average age of everyone, has no bearing on how old you are.

The thing to watch out for is that one pitch that is 3-5 mph or better than the second best reading.  This is usually a case where the radar has picked up the ball off the bat.  It happens quite a bit and can get parents excited and even angry when they see their son wasn't recorded at 96 mph or whatever velocity.  They seem to think that really happened because they saw the radar reading.  They don't consider that his highest pitch other than that one 96 was 85 mph.  I'm sure most people on here understand that, but you would be surprised by how many don't.

Here's an example. The pitcher here threw one inning. As you can see, his third pitch was a gb out that probably left the bat at 90mph. He ends up getting credit for a 90 on PG and is being touted locally as having touched 90. BTW, no way can PG catch all of these. I only caught it because I was watching the game and know the kid.

roothog66 posted:

Here's an example. The pitcher here threw one inning. As you can see, his third pitch was a gb out that probably left the bat at 90mph. He ends up getting credit for a 90 on PG and is being touted locally as having touched 90. BTW, no way can PG catch all of these. I only caught it because I was watching the game and know the kid.

It's a good point. As a rule of thumb, if there isn't another pitch within 2 mph (maybe 3 at the very outside) of the high pitch, it's probably a batted ball. Unless, of course, that pitch wasn't swung at! ;-)

RichDunno posted:

This is why I created the King of the Hill Ground Force Trainer.......I had a 14 pitcher throwing 80mph which is pretty good. I also had a 18yr old 6'5" 180....dunk a basketball and throw 88 from outfield and couldn't get off 81mph off mound. When the 14 year old was pitching he would drive my portable pitching mound backwards 1" to 1 1/2" when he pitched. Which told me he was creating ground force into the front bracing leg which causes the hips to rotate. The 18 year old......no drive and never created a drag....just rotated off the rubber. 

The next 2 lessons our focus was driving the pitching mound back.......result after 2 weeks: 20 pitches he topped out at 87 mph with 3 pitches the rest at 83-86. Later in the summer He eventually topped out at 91mph and sat 86-87mph.

More and more studies are finding out that the harder throwers excel in Vertical and horizontal jumps which tell us they have elite power and explosion........now to put this into play on a pitching mound you have to get them to create a solid LOWER HALF to CREATE POWER and upon landing be able to brace up to TRANSFER that into rotational  energy to rotate the hips causing more separation!

Again.....this is why I created the King of the Hill! It will help coaches train kids to "USE THE LEGS!

Crushing the MLB teams and Major Colleges!

This is a really interesting idea and a great description of learning through intent. Simply by changing the intent (push the portable mound backwards) the body arranges itself to accomplish the task. It's a no-teach which is always a good thing. Gonna have my son try this after Thanksgiving break, thank you!

KilroyJ posted:

RichDunno posted:

This is why I created the King of the Hill Ground Force Trainer.......I had a 14 pitcher throwing 80mph which is pretty good. I also had a 18yr old 6'5" 180....dunk a basketball and throw 88 from outfield and couldn't get off 81mph off mound. When the 14 year old was pitching he would drive my portable pitching mound backwards 1" to 1 1/2" when he pitched. Which told me he was creating ground force into the front bracing leg which causes the hips to rotate. The 18 year old......no drive and never created a drag....just rotated off the rubber. 

The next 2 lessons our focus was driving the pitching mound back.......result after 2 weeks: 20 pitches he topped out at 87 mph with 3 pitches the rest at 83-86. Later in the summer He eventually topped out at 91mph and sat 86-87mph.

More and more studies are finding out that the harder throwers excel in Vertical and horizontal jumps which tell us they have elite power and explosion........now to put this into play on a pitching mound you have to get them to create a solid LOWER HALF to CREATE POWER and upon landing be able to brace up to TRANSFER that into rotational  energy to rotate the hips causing more separation!

Again.....this is why I created the King of the Hill! It will help coaches train kids to "USE THE LEGS!

Crushing the MLB teams and Major Colleges!

This is a really interesting idea and a great description of learning through intent. Simply by changing the intent (push the portable mound backwards) the body arranges itself to accomplish the task. It's a no-teach which is always a good thing. Gonna have my son try this after Thanksgiving break, thank you!

I would encourage you to  go to the King of the Hill website and read the description of what this training device is supposed to accomplish.  It is right on target.  I am a pitching coach and this is exactly what we teach.  I don't have experience with this specific training device - we use something simpler - but it is promoting the right concept.  A word of cautionary advice - there can be a tendency for kids to misunderstand how to create the position of the post leg to result in the desired drive off the pitching rubber toward the target. Many want to collapse the back knee of the post leg thinking they have to do that in order to drive forward - and it kills momentum if this is done.  The knee of the post leg has to cave in toward the target (without buckling), which promotes leading down the mound with the hip.  All of which is about having the legs be the foundation of the pitching delivery. Anything that helps teach this movement is worth the investment.  Especially considering that this movement is at the beginning of the kinetic chain - so if it isn't done correctly anything that comes afterwards is going to be affected negatively.

2019Dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

Here's an example. The pitcher here threw one inning. As you can see, his third pitch was a gb out that probably left the bat at 90mph. He ends up getting credit for a 90 on PG and is being touted locally as having touched 90. BTW, no way can PG catch all of these. I only caught it because I was watching the game and know the kid.

It's a good point. As a rule of thumb, if there isn't another pitch within 2 mph (maybe 3 at the very outside) of the high pitch, it's probably a batted ball. Unless, of course, that pitch wasn't swung at! ;-)

ive noticed in game logs now that they are showing the range,  avg and top speed now  so might be easier to discern.    I would think over time  as he goes to more events you could see how he threw at other events and figure out there is a fluke.        

what have you seen in terms of how kids throw at PG events  vs.  in bullpens at home,   varies?   adrenaline adds a couple mph?   nervous subtracts?      I would tend to think they would try and put a few high throws on the board and then settle in to pitching  throwing strikes, getting outs.    

gunner34 posted:

2019Dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

Here's an example. The pitcher here threw one inning. As you can see, his third pitch was a gb out that probably left the bat at 90mph. He ends up getting credit for a 90 on PG and is being touted locally as having touched 90. BTW, no way can PG catch all of these. I only caught it because I was watching the game and know the kid.

It's a good point. As a rule of thumb, if there isn't another pitch within 2 mph (maybe 3 at the very outside) of the high pitch, it's probably a batted ball. Unless, of course, that pitch wasn't swung at! ;-)

ive noticed in game logs now that they are showing the range,  avg and top speed now  so might be easier to discern.    I would think over time  as he goes to more events you could see how he threw at other events and figure out there is a fluke.        

what have you seen in terms of how kids throw at PG events  vs.  in bullpens at home,   varies?   adrenaline adds a couple mph?   nervous subtracts?      I would tend to think they would try and put a few high throws on the board and then settle in to pitching  throwing strikes, getting outs.    

This particular kid had never gone above 85 before this, including a few PG tourneys over the summer where he topped out at 84 and 82. I actually found five or six like this from Jupiter where guys showed 1) a top speed at least 3mph above any other pitch thrown and 2) the high number occurred on a pitch that was hit. 

I also saw one occasion during Jupiter where a kid that tops out at 89 had one ball at 95 on a hard single. DK took that pitch off several hours later. So, they do catch some of these. I also was personally at another game where a kid I know threw one pitch at 90 even though he had never thrown a pitch exceeding 87 in that performance or any other. That pitch was not hit and I was standing with a scout who also got 90, matching the DK reading, so I can see that occasionally a legit velo increase can occur out of nowhere. 

roothog66 posted:

gunner34 posted:

2019Dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

Here's an example. The pitcher here threw one inning. As you can see, his third pitch was a gb out that probably left the bat at 90mph. He ends up getting credit for a 90 on PG and is being touted locally as having touched 90. BTW, no way can PG catch all of these. I only caught it because I was watching the game and know the kid.

It's a good point. As a rule of thumb, if there isn't another pitch within 2 mph (maybe 3 at the very outside) of the high pitch, it's probably a batted ball. Unless, of course, that pitch wasn't swung at! ;-)

ive noticed in game logs now that they are showing the range,  avg and top speed now  so might be easier to discern.    I would think over time  as he goes to more events you could see how he threw at other events and figure out there is a fluke.        

what have you seen in terms of how kids throw at PG events  vs.  in bullpens at home,   varies?   adrenaline adds a couple mph?   nervous subtracts?      I would tend to think they would try and put a few high throws on the board and then settle in to pitching  throwing strikes, getting outs.    

This particular kid had never gone above 85 before this, including a few PG tourneys over the summer where he topped out at 84 and 82. I actually found five or six like this from Jupiter where guys showed 1) a top speed at least 3mph above any other pitch thrown and 2) the high number occurred on a pitch that was hit. 

I also saw one occasion during Jupiter where a kid that tops out at 89 had one ball at 95 on a hard single. DK took that pitch off several hours later. So, they do catch some of these. I also was personally at another game where a kid I know threw one pitch at 90 even though he had never thrown a pitch exceeding 87 in that performance or any other. That pitch was not hit and I was standing with a scout who also got 90, matching the DK reading, so I can see that occasionally a legit velo increase can occur out of nowhere. 

I would think a simple query of pitch by pitch velocities by PG would find outliers, and it would be a simple scrub of the data.