bacdorslider posted:

I don't know if I can add to this discussion but I will try.  I fully understand the need to know where your son is at in his development.  For those of you that have one son maybe two?  I have four.... and all for are different.  They all have their strengths and weaknesses All matured and developed at different times. My sons are between 6'2 and 6'5 and every time they grew a little we had to re-learn the mechanics for the new frame.  

I have hard throwers, soft throwers,  fastball/slider at 3/4 and fastball/12-6 over the top.  In fact the biggest one is 2016 at 6'4 200 and throws the slowest.  I guess my point is you can drive yourself crazy with velo numbers but it really is going to be what it is going to be.  You can add some as you get older and get man muscle but don't expect any huge gains.  Instead learn how to pitch....learn how to to get the batters out. 

It seems with all this talk about 9,10,11, 12 velo.... what type of mound are they throwing off of.... 50 feet?

One more thing, in years past I was sooooo worried about 2013 and 2014 that I kinda let 2016 and 2018 just do their thing .... I went with the older two.. dragging them around the southeast watching every scout, radar gun etc... trying to increase velo... taking pitching lessons.... from USA to Area Code to PG

While my wife took the younger two to their local games and maybe an out of town tourney. I just thought logically that when the younger two were older I would work with them.  

I would call my wife and rant and go on and on.... 2013 did this 2014 didn't do that....  and then when she told me about the younger boys it was like , they did fine...we don't play til later tomorrow, so we are going to sleep in and go swimming... SWIMMING , are you crazy on game day !

My point is stop stressing about all this velo stuff at the younger ages.. enjoy the ride... what will be will be, it goes by fast.... and remember the thing tht is more important than throwing 90+  GRADES !

Oh and im 6'4 250  and my velo is 55  , tore three cuffs 6 years ago.... talk about pain

This so true, he was a crazy person with the first two!!!!  

I meant to update this a couple months ago but haven't had time with ball season going on lol. Anyway this was previous post. 


2013 12 years old 5'2" 85 lbs 55mph
2014 13 years old 5'8" 110 lbs 62 mph
2015 14 years old 5'10" 135 lbs 73 mph 

2016 15 years old 6'0" 145 lbs 77 mph

this year

2017 16 years old 6'1" 150 lbs 83mph

So the growth seems to have stopped which leaves the gains to mechanical work. This winter he will actually do velocity work since I believe the growth plate has closed. If he can get one more 5 to 6 mph jump this off season. I think he will be pretty happy but those bigger jumps may have come to an end. We will see.

 

 

Scotty83 posted:

 

So the growth seems to have stopped which leaves the gains to mechanical work. 

Plenty of growth can happen in terms of muscle though.  6'1" 150 leaves plenty of room to fill out.   If he can increase muscle through weight lifting, especially in the lower half, combined with improved mechanics as you mentioned, that will certainly help

Ah, I had forgotten about this thread.

That's good progress, Scotty! Adding weight & strength will help for sure.

For my son, here's what I had posted previously, updated with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph

Hoping for 87 or 88 this summer. Just started lifting, so maybe that will help.

2019Dad posted:

Ah, I had forgotten about this thread.

That's good progress, Scotty! Adding weight & strength will help for sure.

For my son, here's what I had posted previously, updated with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph

Hoping for 87 or 88 this summer. Just started lifting, so maybe that will help.

Wow, that is a darn near linear progression...the scientist in me is drooling at the pretty data points!

2019Dad posted:

Ah, I had forgotten about this thread.

That's good progress, Scotty! Adding weight & strength will help for sure.

For my son, here's what I had posted previously, updated with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph

Hoping for 87 or 88 this summer. Just started lifting, so maybe that will help.

That is almost spot on to my son's progression.  

SultanofSwat posted:

'Strength' doesn't make you throw faster.

More mass + technique = velocity

You can hit 90 at 145 pounds.

 

While I believe 145# person can throw 90 I question about strength not making you throw faster. 

Force equals mass times acceleration, and you can accelerate faster with stronger muscles right? No seriously, I'm asking.

You can only develop what is in the arm..... you can work hard and get to 86-88  , maybe in college 91-92  anything after that at is the way the body and arm works....  that's why some can and some can't .   some can jump out of the gym some can't .  some run a 6.2  60 and some cannot

2019Dad posted:
SultanofSwat posted:

'Strength' doesn't make you throw faster.

More mass + technique = velocity

You can hit 90 at 145 pounds.

 

Ah, fair enough. Lifting might help a boy increase mass, though (with proper nutrition and rest).

Here's what strength increase - in the right places and when done without compromising mobility - does do for velocity. Increased muscle strength, especially in the shoulders and among the 10 muscles that support the ucl throughout the forearm, will allow a pitcher's body to handle more stress and therefore allows for increased velocity. Your body simply won't allow the arm to move faster than it can physically sustain. Your system governs and regulate such movement patterns. More strength = greater ability to handle the greater stresses of increased internal rotation that are necessary for increased velocity.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

14U 5'4, maybe 115   74mph

16U 5'8, 135   80

17U  5'11 160  89

HS Senior  5'11, 160  90

This summer as a 20 year old,  6'0, 183  93

Buckeye - Would you say that the jump to 93 was based mostly on his growth, or more on his technique that he learned from college coaching & workout program?

It's got to be mostly from his workout program at college because anyone who sees him throw will tell you his technique is awful, but at this point, there's not much reason to mess with it.  Had a former coach from his travel days (former MLB pitcher) tell him he has an easy 2-3 more mph just by getting his legs involved.  I am not kidding when I say his stride is less than 3 feet, even from the windup.  It basically looks like he is standing in the yard playing pitch and catch with someone.  I think it really deceives batters because it doesn't look like he's even trying lol

roothog66 posted:
TPM posted:

Interesting. Developing strength in the arm doesnt make one throw faster or harder.

While it doesn' make  one throw faster, it does allow the ucl to take higher stress loads. In other words, necessary but not sufficient.

I would agree to that, strengthening and stabilizing the shoulder takes stress off the ucl. 

But from my understanding most young pitchers, do not work enough on lower body, and stride, proper mechanics. Thats why we are seeing so many injuries before they even reach college.

JMO

 

 

TPM posted:
roothog66 posted:
TPM posted:

Interesting. Developing strength in the arm doesnt make one throw faster or harder.

While it doesn' make  one throw faster, it does allow the ucl to take higher stress loads. In other words, necessary but not sufficient.

I would agree to that, strengthening and stabilizing the shoulder takes stress off the ucl. 

But from my understanding most young pitchers, do not work enough on lower body, and stride, proper mechanics. Thats why we are seeing so many injuries before they even reach college.

JMO

 

 

Most of the hard throwers you see at the high school level these days actually do work pretty hard on lower body strengthening. However, while there are some universally agreed on markers, I won't hold my breath waiting for a consensus, sustained idea on what constitutes proper mechanics - been chasing that concept for about 35 years and every time I think I've got it, it moves on me.

bacdorslider posted:

You can only develop what is in the arm..... you can work hard and get to 86-88  , maybe in college 91-92  anything after that at is the way the body and arm works....  that's why some can and some can't .   some can jump out of the gym some can't .  some run a 6.2  60 and some cannot

Yes but for any individual kid, no one can be certain what is ultimately in the arm when they are young. Buckeye's kid is a great example.

CaCO3Girl posted:
SultanofSwat posted:

'Strength' doesn't make you throw faster.

More mass + technique = velocity

You can hit 90 at 145 pounds.

 

While I believe 145# person can throw 90 I question about strength not making you throw faster. 

Force equals mass times acceleration, and you can accelerate faster with stronger muscles right? No seriously, I'm asking.

Given that the mass is constant in baseball and further given that the mass in question (5.25 oz average) is not particularly large, that does leave us with acceleration.  The best point to measure acceleration would be at the point of the ball itself.  

Jumping around, one might ask why do pitchers work on their lower half?  Why do they work on their core?  Why do they work on their stride and hip turn?  In talking to dads with young kids, I like to use the analogy of "snapping" the beach towel that we did as kids (always fun when we drew blood).  There was always that big kid that couldn't quite get his towel folded just right or couldn't sequence his whip action while little Johnny perfected both and was most dangerous.  The acceleration at the point of the ball upon release depends on maybe 100 actions up until that point - some major, many minor.  At 10 years of age, there will be kids who do struggle with the mass of the baseball, therefore oftentimes the bigger kids are "better" pitchers as they have more arm strength.  Once arm strength become "sufficient" (wide range maybe 12-15 yo) then mechanics largely take over and will dictate which pitchers will throw with the most velocity.  There will always be some kids who keep up just throwing with their arms, but they simply have great arms.

Bringing this back to "strength", a level of strength well above "sufficient" will serve a pitcher well as will developing all the muscles used in the pitching motion to this level.  The comment about bodybuilders is the extreme where strength training (or more appropriately bodybuilding) actually decreases one's ability to accelerate using certain muscles as muscle mass and muscle tightness work against the pitcher.  I guess my question would be how does a pitcher determine their level of optimum strength of the various parts of the body.  Lastly, does some additional strength (above "optimum" level for velocity) aid in preventing injury.

CaCO3Girl posted:
2019Dad posted:

Ah, I had forgotten about this thread.

That's good progress, Scotty! Adding weight & strength will help for sure.

For my son, here's what I had posted previously, updated with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph

Hoping for 87 or 88 this summer. Just started lifting, so maybe that will help.

Wow, that is a darn near linear progression...the scientist in me is drooling at the pretty data points!

Update with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph
  • Nov 2017 (age 16 yrs, 10 mo.): 90 mph

Only one pitch at 90, otherwise high was 88, but still a big day for the kid. Lifting appears to be helping.  

TPM posted:

The pitchers who throw with their arms will get injured.

Determing optimum level of strength is probably usually determined by professionals.  

JMO

 

My son worked with a pitching coach who preached "pitch from your legs." The guy was drafted out of high school and nothing hit home harder than the day he said "I never believed it when people said to pitch from your legs. That's why I'm here teaching you to pitch instead of playing pro ball somewhere."

This is why I created the King of the Hill Ground Force Trainer.......I had a 14 pitcher throwing 80mph which is pretty good. I also had a 18yr old 6'5" 180....dunk a basketball and throw 88 from outfield and couldn't get off 81mph off mound. When the 14 year old was pitching he would drive my portable pitching mound backwards 1" to 1 1/2" when he pitched. Which told me he was creating ground force into the front bracing leg which causes the hips to rotate. The 18 year old......no drive and never created a drag....just rotated off the rubber. 

The next 2 lessons our focus was driving the pitching mound back.......result after 2 weeks: 20 pitches he topped out at 87 mph with 3 pitches the rest at 83-86. Later in the summer He eventually topped out at 91mph and sat 86-87mph.

More and more studies are finding out that the harder throwers excel in Vertical and horizontal jumps which tell us they have elite power and explosion........now to put this into play on a pitching mound you have to get them to create a solid LOWER HALF to CREATE POWER and upon landing be able to brace up to TRANSFER that into rotational  energy to rotate the hips causing more separation!

Again.....this is why I created the King of the Hill! It will help coaches train kids to "USE THE LEGS!

Crushing the MLB teams and Major Colleges!

2019Dad posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:
2019Dad posted:

Ah, I had forgotten about this thread.

That's good progress, Scotty! Adding weight & strength will help for sure.

For my son, here's what I had posted previously, updated with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph

Hoping for 87 or 88 this summer. Just started lifting, so maybe that will help.

Wow, that is a darn near linear progression...the scientist in me is drooling at the pretty data points!

Update with a recent outing this past weekend:

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph
  • Nov 2017 (age 16 yrs, 10 mo.): 90 mph

Only one pitch at 90, otherwise high was 88, but still a big day for the kid. Lifting appears to be helping.  

Congrats on the continued growth!  Looking forward to how this impacts his "recruiting" value.  Thanks for documenting the journey..  

Do you have an idea on his weight and height at these milestones?  That would be kind of cool to see.  

 

2019 RHP 

  • May 2016 (Age 14 yrs, 11 mths) (Size 5'11", 150 lbs) 78 mph
  • May 2017 (Age 15 yrs, 11 mths) (Size 6'2", 155lbs) 81 mph 
  • Oct 2017 (Age 16 yrs, 4 mths) (Size 6'2", 165 lbs) 84 mph

Keep working on getting stronger, bigger, faster.  His current goal is to have a role on VS in spring with  25 plus innings in league play.  Looking to be 175 lbs in spring.  Sitting 84 85 touching 87.  

real green posted:
 

Congrats on the continued growth!  Looking forward to how this impacts his "recruiting" value.  Thanks for documenting the journey..  

Do you have an idea on his weight and height at these milestones?  That would be kind of cool to see.  

 

I will guesstimate it for you. Not too sure about the first couple -- my memory could be off a bit! -- but I know he was 140 lbs when he started high school (Sept 2015)

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph; 5'3" 105 lbs
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph; 5'6" 115 lbs
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph 5'10" 135 lbs
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph; 6'0" 155 lbs
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph; 6'1" 167 lbs
  • Nov 2017 (age 16 yrs, 10 mo.): 90 mph; 6'1" 173 lbs 

Wants to be 180 by spring season. He'll turn 17 in about 10 weeks.

[Edited because my wife corrected me on the first couple ones!]

bacdorslider posted:

are these cruising numbers?

My son has not had that many opportunities to be gunned.  His readings were all random live games that there happened to be a radar gun.  The velocity from Oct.  was from a live game.  He was sitting 82-83 and occasionally touching 84.  

bacdorslider posted:

are these cruising numbers?

Nope. Top velo on that particular day (just like a PG or PBR headline number). Like RealGreen's, my son's numbers are also in games, including scrimmages. Son's HS varsity has a Stalker Pro and charts every pitch in a game or scrimmage (though they do not use radar for JV or frosh).

FWIW, and I don't know if this is generally true but it has held for my son so far -- a new top velo, which is an outlier at the time, becomes more "normal" as he continues to develop. For example, this past February he pitched in a varsity scrimmage and threw one pitch at 86, but otherwise his high that day was 84. Now some time has passed, and 86 is normal -- on Saturday he threw 13 fastballs and I think 86 was the velo on 5 of them. So now 90 is an outlier for him (the next highest pitch on Saturday was 88). So it seems like there's a jump, and then sort of a catch-up period.

I don't know if I'm explaining it well, or if you have seen that with any of your sons' development.


I will guesstimate it for you. Not too sure about the first couple -- my memory could be off a bit! -- but I know he was 140 lbs when he started high school (Sept 2015)

  • Mar. 2013 (age 12 yrs, 2 mo.): 62 mph; 5'3" 105 lbs
  • April 2014 (age 13 yrs, 3 mo.): 70 mph; 5'6" 115 lbs
  • June 2015 (age 14 yrs, 5 mo): 75.1 mph 5'10" 135 lbs
  • May 2016 (age 15 yrs, 4 mo.): 80.0 mph; 6'0" 155 lbs
  • June 2017 (age 16 yrs, 5 mo.): 86 mph; 6'1" 167 lbs
  • Nov 2017 (age 16 yrs, 10 mo.): 90 mph; 6'1" 173 lbs 

Wants to be 180 by spring season. He'll turn 17 in about 10 weeks.

[Edited because my wife corrected me on the first couple ones!]

These numbers (and size/weight) are almost identical to what my son was, though your son got taller a little quicker than my son, he was maybe 5'9 when he committed the summer after his junior year, graduated just under 6' and may be 6'1 now.   He hit 90 in the season opener his senior year of HS....was 88 pretty regular during that season and threw 90 to get his 11th strikeout on his 90th pitch in the last inning of the District semi-final game in his last HS outing.   He's added about 12-15 pounds since he's been to college and was up to 92 last summer.  Crazy thing is that he NEVER touched a weight until he got to college.   Nothing but a lot of long toss, plenty of hitting in the cage and pitching 2-3 times a week, even during the off-season.....oh and the fact that he finally grew lol

Looking back at one of my earlier posts....i had to chuckle, i can be silly sometimes. I know i updated my son on here similarly in respect to a chronology/velo starting at 15 i think,  but figured this thread may survive the test of time. He is a Jr in college this year and hoping to be a better "pitcher"....back end guy, starter if needed. Who knows where he will get slotted (i think bullpen).

In the last Purple & Orange world series to close the fall i got this feedback on his outing:

Sitting at 94-95 with good command

12-to-6 curveballs at 79-80

He has added an 89-90 cutter

He's told me his CU is 86-88

To quote 2020- you're always climbing the mountain...here's to climbing.

Shoveit4Ks posted:

Looking back at one of my earlier posts....i had to chuckle, i can be silly sometimes. I know i updated my son on here similarly in respect to a chronology/velo starting at 15 i think,  but figured this thread may survive the test of time. He is a Jr in college this year and hoping to be a better "pitcher"....back end guy, starter if needed. Who knows where he will get slotted (i think bullpen).

In the last Purple & Orange world series to close the fall i got this feedback on his outing:

Sitting at 94-95 with good command

12-to-6 curveballs at 79-80

He has added an 89-90 cutter

He's told me his CU is 86-88

To quote Root- you're always climbing the mountain...here's to climbing.

C'mon, ShoveIt! You can't tease us like that. Sitting 95, you have to spill the beans on what he's touching . . . 98? 99? 

Congrats, that is amazing stuff.

Shoveit4Ks posted:

Looking back at one of my earlier posts....i had to chuckle, i can be silly sometimes. I know i updated my son on here similarly in respect to a chronology/velo starting at 15 i think,  but figured this thread may survive the test of time. He is a Jr in college this year and hoping to be a better "pitcher"....back end guy, starter if needed. Who knows where he will get slotted (i think bullpen).

In the last Purple & Orange world series to close the fall i got this feedback on his outing:

Sitting at 94-95 with good command

12-to-6 curveballs at 79-80

He has added an 89-90 cutter

He's told me his CU is 86-88

To quote Root- you're always climbing the mountain...here's to climbing.

Awesome!

RichDunno posted:

This is why I created the King of the Hill Ground Force Trainer.......I had a 14 pitcher throwing 80mph which is pretty good. I also had a 18yr old 6'5" 180....dunk a basketball and throw 88 from outfield and couldn't get off 81mph off mound. When the 14 year old was pitching he would drive my portable pitching mound backwards 1" to 1 1/2" when he pitched. Which told me he was creating ground force into the front bracing leg which causes the hips to rotate. The 18 year old......no drive and never created a drag....just rotated off the rubber. 

The next 2 lessons our focus was driving the pitching mound back.......result after 2 weeks: 20 pitches he topped out at 87 mph with 3 pitches the rest at 83-86. Later in the summer He eventually topped out at 91mph and sat 86-87mph.

More and more studies are finding out that the harder throwers excel in Vertical and horizontal jumps which tell us they have elite power and explosion........now to put this into play on a pitching mound you have to get them to create a solid LOWER HALF to CREATE POWER and upon landing be able to brace up to TRANSFER that into rotational  energy to rotate the hips causing more separation!

Again.....this is why I created the King of the Hill! It will help coaches train kids to "USE THE LEGS!

Crushing the MLB teams and Major Colleges!

Yep, leg drive and separation are very important for velocity, AND to prevent sudden sharp stress on UCL caused by "tall and fall" delivery. 

July 2013 (age 14 yrs, 4 mo.): 71 mph; 5'3'' 118 lbs
May 2015 (age 16 yrs, 2 mo.): 80 mph; 5'11'' 164 lbs
June 2016 (age 17 yrs, 2 mo.): 86 mph; 6'1'' 178 lbs
July 2017 (age 18 yrs, 4 mo.): 92 mph; 6'3'' 190 lbs

October 2017-UCL sprain

The summer 2017 gains were from getting stronger AND getting lower half working. He has very powerful legs. Unfortunately this fall a pitching coach made him go back to a “balance point” delivery, i.e. no leg drive, and made him reduce his hip / shoulder separation. The result was a drop in velo followed by a UCL sprain and he will miss the next 3-5 months. He will never listen to a pitching coach again that doesn't understand leg drive and separation.

PS: I love this thread. I thought I was the only dad in the world that kept these kind of stats on his son.

2019Dad posted:
Shoveit4Ks posted:

Looking back at one of my earlier posts....i had to chuckle, i can be silly sometimes. I know i updated my son on here similarly in respect to a chronology/velo starting at 15 i think,  but figured this thread may survive the test of time. He is a Jr in college this year and hoping to be a better "pitcher"....back end guy, starter if needed. Who knows where he will get slotted (i think bullpen).

In the last Purple & Orange world series to close the fall i got this feedback on his outing:

Sitting at 94-95 with good command

12-to-6 curveballs at 79-80

He has added an 89-90 cutter

He's told me his CU is 86-88

To quote Root- you're always climbing the mountain...here's to climbing.

C'mon, ShoveIt! You can't tease us like that. Sitting 95, you have to spill the beans on what he's touching . . . 98? 99? 

Congrats, that is amazing stuff.

We saw 6's and 7's in july for Team USA. I love hearing him talk these days about pitching, he has grown up so much and is becoming a pitcher. 

"We saw 6's and 7's in july for Team USA. I love hearing him talk these days about pitching, he has grown up so much and is becoming a pitcher. "

We saw a few 6's and 7's this summer from both 2017 and 2024.  Not sure about that first number, but both had these in the second column.

Good luck in 2018 - it's right around the corner.  Let us know when he punches out three digits.

2019Dad posted:
bacdorslider posted:

are these cruising numbers?

Nope. Top velo on that particular day (just like a PG or PBR headline number). Like RealGreen's, my son's numbers are also in games, including scrimmages. Son's HS varsity has a Stalker Pro and charts every pitch in a game or scrimmage (though they do not use radar for JV or frosh).

FWIW, and I don't know if this is generally true but it has held for my son so far -- a new top velo, which is an outlier at the time, becomes more "normal" as he continues to develop. For example, this past February he pitched in a varsity scrimmage and threw one pitch at 86, but otherwise his high that day was 84. Now some time has passed, and 86 is normal -- on Saturday he threw 13 fastballs and I think 86 was the velo on 5 of them. So now 90 is an outlier for him (the next highest pitch on Saturday was 88). So it seems like there's a jump, and then sort of a catch-up period.

I don't know if I'm explaining it well, or if you have seen that with any of your sons' development.

Explaining it very well, '19Dad.  RHP son has added 2 mph each year the past couple years.  I see it in the summer time as that is when he focuses on pitching workouts most.  One year's "touch" velo becomes next year's sitting velo.  Hoping he's got at least a couple more of those years in him.

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