When recruiting, would jr college coaches rather a guy throw harder (83-85) but not have command and even some control issues or a guy be softer (80-82) but have good command?
in other words, is it better for the kid to sacrifice some control to go out and sling the ball for numbers?
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Teaching Elder posted:When recruiting, would jr college coaches rather a guy throw harder (83-85) but not have command and even some control issues or a guy be softer (80-82) but have good command?
in other words, is it better for the kid to sacrifice some control to go out and sling the ball for numbers?
Some JCs might TAKE a kid that threw 82 w/ good command - but they wouldn't recruit him.
So, you're saying, "Hit the mascot with your best stuff"?
Teaching Elder posted:So, you're saying, "Hit the mascot with your best stuff"?
That is clearly NOT what I said
Teaching Elder posted:When recruiting, would jr college coaches rather a guy throw harder (83-85) but not have command and even some control issues or a guy be softer (80-82) but have good command?
in other words, is it better for the kid to sacrifice some control to go out and sling the ball for numbers?
I don't understand the question. Don't most guys who can sit 80-82 with good command have a slightly higher powerful fastball that would be 83-85?
My sons coach told him at PG events to attempt at least one high velo pitch when it is a good time to have a wild pitch. That way they get that 84 on their record but can sit 80-82.
"When recruiting, Velocity or command"
Why is this a question?
The Q in the OP had to do with who would a JuCo coach rather recruit. The Q didn't ask if a kid could be effective in JuCo throwing 82 w/ command. The Q was would that kid be recruited - which implies "would he be offered a scholarship?" You can be just as effective throwing 82 w/ command as you can be throwing 92 w/ command. Its just a whole lot harder to do. The margin for error is very small and very few can do it. Therefore, a college team will almost never invest scholarship money in a guy like that as the odds are too long. 99 times out of 100 they will recruit velocity and try to teach command. There is not a lot of interest in guys that throw below bat speed. That's why I said in my first post that a kid like that might be offered a roster spot but no money. But I expect you already know that and are just throwing a hook in the water to see who will bite. Interesting that you chose JuCo for your hypothetical Q.
"Interesting that you chose JuCo for your hypothetical Q. "
Why is that?
Teaching Elder posted:"Interesting that you chose JuCo for your hypothetical Q. "
Why is that?
Why did you choose it ?
I asked you first.
I'm glued to my monitor. Maybe the rest of us could start guessing why and you can tell us if we are correct or not.
Interesting choice because......it's not the typical D1/Power 5 question that everyone else asks
Why Juco was chosen.....there happens to be one down the street close by
Teaching Elder posted:I asked you first.
I cant read your mind so you are putting me in the position of having to assume. So I assume you chose JuCo because you think that is where a kid throwing 82 w/ command is most likely to be recruited (or have a chance). If my assumption is correct, I would counter by saying it would have to be a very uncompetitive JuCo for that to be true. The more likely place for a kid at 82 w/ command to have a chance to succeed is D3 - not JuCo. IMO.
I was at a D3 game a few years ago and saw Hardin Simmons University run a lefty out there who was 5'-8" tall and weighed maybe a buck fifty. Fastball topped out at 78 and change up was 68 mph. Kid was fearless and did okay in relief that day. Pitching coach told me after the game that when he was perfect he was very effective, but when he wasn't he got hammered.
AD, that begins to shed a little light on the answer to the question. I’m still a little confused though. Why would coaches prefer a guy who slings 83-85 but doesn’t know where it’s going to a guy who maybe sits 81-82, knowing that likely they will take some velo off of that first guy to get the command and he will sit closer to the second guys velocity in actual games?
I realize that this hypothetical has to insert some assumptions that may or may not be true.
Simple question...simple answer. Velo is what gets you looks...even with JUCO coaches. I think the only exception might be the kid who is low 80's with a higher ceiling....like the kid who is 6'5, 175lbs, without a hint of facial hair.
I don't know why you are confused. As Sultan of Swat alluded in his post - velocity gets recruited & command doesn't. Its that simple. Radar guns don't measure command do they ? Problem is that they also don't measure whether or not you can pitch. No recorded measurables are an accurate indication of how well a player plays the game. It all about probability. It is more likely that the guy with the higher velo will be successful, so that's who gets recruited. It is a very imperfect science but that's the way it is.
It appears, then, from your comments and others, that at showcases , camps and tryouts, it is a better idea for players to throw hard than to throw well. Am, I understanding you correctly?
Teaching Elder posted:It appears, then, from your comments and others, that at showcases , camps and tryouts, it is a better idea for players to throw hard than to throw well. Am, I understanding you correctly?
Yes
At some point you have to learn to throw well too. But to get noticed and to get a chance (and that part comes first) you need to throw hard.
Throwing with velocity may get you that job interview. It may even get you the job but if you can't command your pitches. You may be looking for a new job.
CaCO3Girl posted:Teaching Elder posted:When recruiting, would jr college coaches rather a guy throw harder (83-85) but not have command and even some control issues or a guy be softer (80-82) but have good command?
in other words, is it better for the kid to sacrifice some control to go out and sling the ball for numbers?
I don't understand the question. Don't most guys who can sit 80-82 with good command have a slightly higher powerful fastball that would be 83-85?
My sons coach told him at PG events to attempt at least one high velo pitch when it is a good time to have a wild pitch. That way they get that 84 on their record but can sit 80-82.
I would agree with that. Air it out for 3-4 pitches so you get the number on record and then throw a velo you can control.
At large showcases coaches are looking at lots of kids in a very short period of time. In August I was at a showcase where over 100 pitchers threw in front of almost 100 coaches. 2 pitchers were throwing at the same time and it was hard enough to keep straight who was who since the order didn't match the information sheet. In a small window like that velocity is about the only thing that will get somebody's attention. Maybe an outstanding breaking ball if your vantage point is good enough to see it well. Most HS pitchers have flaws in their delivery that take away from their velo and their command. College coaches can see the right guy at 85 and think they can improve his mechanics and get him up to 88 with improved command.
Sidebar: Even as a position player you want to sling a few to show your velo (capability) across the field, then play your position aggressively as you would in a game.
Wasn't the question about pitchers? Why would you bring up position players?
Appreciate your feedback AD. I see that your profile says that you do some volunteer Asst. coaching. Would like to pick your brain a bit more if okay.
Hypothetical scenario:
Coach brings in a guy who is not great with command, but can hit the strike zone 3 out of 5 pitches. He's seen the guy throw 84-85. What does the coach do with this guy once he has him on campus? (Pitcher has a scholarship and is guaranteed a year. Not a bunch 'em and chunk 'em coach.) Does he look to reduce the guy down to a cruising speed that allows better command? Does he try to teach the guy to command 84-85? Something else?
is 83-85 really velocity?
Teaching Elder posted:Appreciate your feedback AD. I see that your profile says that you do some volunteer Asst. coaching. Would like to pick your brain a bit more if okay.
Hypothetical scenario:
Coach brings in a guy who is not great with command, but can hit the strike zone 3 out of 5 pitches. He's seen the guy throw 84-85. What does the coach do with this guy once he has him on campus? (Pitcher has a scholarship and is guaranteed a year. Not a bunch 'em and chunk 'em coach.) Does he look to reduce the guy down to a cruising speed that allows better command? Does he try to teach the guy to command 84-85? Something else?
I get the impression that you have a specific situation that you are dancing around so lets go to PM and get to the bottom of it.
Chicago643 posted:Wasn't the question about pitchers? Why would you bring up position players?
I stated sidebar. My comment is secondary to the OP, but related in the sense that players have to let it fly to show what they're capable of. This stuff always comes up when kids are going to showcases and camps.
Back to the OP
Teaching Elder posted:Appreciate your feedback AD. I see that your profile says that you do some volunteer Asst. coaching. Would like to pick your brain a bit more if okay.
Hypothetical scenario:
Coach brings in a guy who is not great with command, but can hit the strike zone 3 out of 5 pitches. He's seen the guy throw 84-85. What does the coach do with this guy once he has him on campus? (Pitcher has a scholarship and is guaranteed a year. Not a bunch 'em and chunk 'em coach.) Does he look to reduce the guy down to a cruising speed that allows better command? Does he try to teach the guy to command 84-85? Something else?
I would say that it depends. Velo is King, but my son's HS PC was a former PC at an NAIA school. He did exactly what you describe here. He wanted control over top velocity. Therefore, there are probably some JC coaches that would do the same. Keep in mind that there are 3 levels of JC ball, so the abilities/talent levels vary immensely.
as someone’s else stated, 83-85 isn’t hard. I don’t understand the fixation on those numbers as being “velocity”. In college, 90+ is hard. 83-85 is likely a lefty specialist or they have insane secondary pitches.
82-85 doesn’t really impress much regardless of control. Velocity gets you recruited, control keeps you in the rotation. Better develop both at some point
D1catcher posted:as someone’s else stated, 83-85 isn’t hard. I don’t understand the fixation on those numbers as being “velocity”. In college, 90+ is hard. 83-85 is likely a lefty specialist or they have insane secondary pitches.
82-85 doesn’t really impress much regardless of control. Velocity gets you recruited, control keeps you in the rotation. Better develop both at some point
100% correct
Let's ease up on the D1 power five arrogance here guys. Not every player is that caliber and that's okay. 83-85 is good velocity for some levels of play. Less than that is good for some levels of play. Young men often times want to continue to compete, even though it's not D1 and even if they don't plan to play after college. Let's be careful about looking down our noses.
By-the-way, Barry Zitto's average fastball velocity was 83.7 MPH. The guy has a Cy Young award.
D1catcher posted:as someone’s else stated, 83-85 isn’t hard. I don’t understand the fixation on those numbers as being “velocity”. In college, 90+ is hard. 83-85 is likely a lefty specialist or they have insane secondary pitches.
82-85 doesn’t really impress much regardless of control. Velocity gets you recruited, control keeps you in the rotation. Better develop both at some point
First I want to say I don't have a dog in this race. As time has moved on it becomes more clear that my son will play football in college. But on behalf of those kids who are at 83-85 first let me congratulate you. You ARE throwing hard. Not everybody is gifted with a 90+ arm. Secondly lets all pull back a little and remember there is a lot more baseball than just D1. And I am sure D1catcher's comments are meant to indicate what feelings would be at the D1 level. There are many D2, D3 and NAIA schools that would be happy to take a good pitcher throwing 83-85.
Teaching Elder posted:Let's ease up on the D1 power five arrogance here guys. Not every player is that caliber and that's okay. 83-85 is good velocity for some levels of play. Less than that is good for some levels of play. Young men often times want to continue to compete, even though it's not D1 and even if they don't plan to play after college. Let's be careful about looking down our noses.
By-the-way, Barry Zitto's average fastball velocity was 83.7 MPH. The guy has a Cy Young award.
D1 catchers comments apply to a lot more than D1 programs. His comments apply to college programs at every level. 83 mph is more or less avg HS velo for a varsity pitcher. A HS lefty at 83 will get recruited. A HS RHP at 83 is a dime a dozen as far as velo goes. You can find at least 2 of those at almost every 5A and 6A HS in Texas. At the really good HS programs there might be 5 or 6.
And a lot of them are 85 - 90 mph
ok so what??? We have a tiny school of just over 600 kids and we have three documented over 87mph and another one or two pushing mid 80's. And guess what? All three of those 87+ kids will go D1. So whats your point? The 83-85 kids will have a place for them AT A LEVEL LOWER THAN D1 if they choose to pursue it. Kids throwing 83 may be a dime a dozen the way you define that term. But after the smoke clears and the big mph kids go D1 and many others in that 83-85 range just decide to move on with their lives and not play college baseball all the sudden there is demand at the small college level for those guys. All you have to do is take your pocket radar to a local D3 game. Find out for yourself. Even the best of the best D3's have guys cruising just over 80. And I have verified it with my own eyes at Wisconsin Whitewater games. I just don't know how this myth keeps getting perpetuated that you cant pitch in college if you are not pushing 90. Truth is I have gunned kids cruising in the 70's on bad D3 teams. And yes believe it or not there might just be a kid who barely scrapes up against 80 who just loves playing and is ok playing for that bad D3 team. Maybe its just plain fun. Lets be careful not to be so elitist that we look down our noses at that kid.
2020dad posted:D1catcher posted:as someone’s else stated, 83-85 isn’t hard. I don’t understand the fixation on those numbers as being “velocity”. In college, 90+ is hard. 83-85 is likely a lefty specialist or they have insane secondary pitches.
82-85 doesn’t really impress much regardless of control. Velocity gets you recruited, control keeps you in the rotation. Better develop both at some point
First I want to say I don't have a dog in this race. As time has moved on it becomes more clear that my son will play football in college. But on behalf of those kids who are at 83-85 first let me congratulate you. You ARE throwing hard. Not everybody is gifted with a 90+ arm. Secondly lets all pull back a little and remember there is a lot more baseball than just D1. And I am sure D1catcher's comments are meant to indicate what feelings would be at the D1 level. There are many D2, D3 and NAIA schools that would be happy to take a good pitcher throwing 83-85.
Your last statement is correct. There are some D2 and NAIA schools "that would be happy to take" a pitcher throwing 83-85 IF he had good command AND good secondary stuff. But they are not likely to offer them any baseball scholarship money. The OP was about getting recruited - implying scholarship.
2020dad posted:ok so what??? We have a tiny school of just over 600 kids and we have three documented over 87mph and another one or two pushing mid 80's. And guess what? All three of those 87+ kids will go D1. So whats your point? The 83-85 kids will have a place for them AT A LEVEL LOWER THAN D1 if they choose to pursue it. Kids throwing 83 may be a dime a dozen the way you define that term. But after the smoke clears and the big mph kids go D1 and many others in that 83-85 range just decide to move on with their lives and not play college baseball all the sudden there is demand at the small college level for those guys. All you have to do is take your pocket radar to a local D3 game. Find out for yourself. Even the best of the best D3's have guys cruising just over 80. And I have verified it with my own eyes at Wisconsin Whitewater games. I just don't know how this myth keeps getting perpetuated that you cant pitch in college if you are not pushing 90. Truth is I have gunned kids cruising in the 70's on bad D3 teams. And yes believe it or not there might just be a kid who barely scrapes up against 80 who just loves playing and is ok playing for that bad D3 team. Maybe its just plain fun. Lets be careful not to be so elitist that we look down our noses at that kid.
Nobody is being elitist and nobody has said that you have to throw 90 to pitch in college. Earlier in this thread I said that you can be just as effective throwing 82 with command as you can be throwing 92 with command. Its just much harder to do and not many can do it. So read the whole thread before you start lobbing grenades.
Gov posted:Chicago643 posted:Wasn't the question about pitchers? Why would you bring up position players?
I stated sidebar. My comment is secondary to the OP, but related in the sense that players have to let it fly to show what they're capable of. This stuff always comes up when kids are going to showcases and camps.
Back to the OP
Which is often why a "showcase player" isn't necessarily a gamer. Coaches can sometimes be fooled, too. I remember my son went to a college camp and the coach made it a point to tell the players and parents that they were releasing a couple of current players that showed well in showcases and were recruited on that basis, but it didn't translate to being a daily D1 player. Are you really "capable" of whatever it is you show once with maximum effort? Technically, yes, but I don't think that paints the complete story of a player. I know a player who is 92 across the diamond (absolute hose of an arm) who, because he knows he can "sling it," often takes an extra step or time to throw the ball, which has forced max effort throws that cannot be handled by the first baseman when they are off-line or in the dirt. In this case, all that velocity became a crutch and now that players are faster he has to figure out he needs to make other adjustments in order to be a reliable defender.
And nobody ever said there is anything wrong with playing on a bad D3 team just for fun either.
