Velocity vs. accuracy for young pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by bball123:
I believe both, TPM and Skylark (and others), are looking from different viewpoints. If a pitcher started at a young age 8,9 in LL or Pony and just play in Spring and observe all the pitch counts and limits, and compare to a pitcher that start pitching at 11,12 and play all year round, local league and travel balls, I believe the later one who started late may not fair any better or worse when both pitchers reach the age of say 17. Both might have thrown the same number of pitches thru their lifetime up of to 17 years' old. The former one over a longer period, the later one over a shorter period.

I can't speak for anyone else but only my opinion.
I live in FL, where often children play all year long. Others live in states where they get only a certain time of year to play. At 8 it wasn't LL, it was khoury league, and you pitched. My husband took him out of coach pitch because he wanted him to learn how to pitch at a young age.

I am saying I feel it wasn't necessary, and sorry that he didn't wait until later. I feel son threw unnecessarily at a young age.

Not sure why that is so hard a concept to ingest.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Skylark- I had a nice, long response written out but I decided to delete it. I learned in the past that wasting my time with people who don't want to listen and learn is useless. And you very much proved to fall under the category of one of those people when you posted under Gingerbread Man, before you were suspended from the boards.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1

Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.

Yikes I forgot about the catching!

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Skylark- I had a nice, long response written out but I decided to delete it. I learned in the past that wasting my time with people who don't want to listen and learn is useless. And you very much proved to fall under the category of one of those people when you posted under Gingerbread Man, before you were suspended from the boards.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...941/m/2787006216/p/1

Good luck to your son. I hope that he has a long, injury-free career in the game of baseball.

JH,
With due respect I congradulate you on your long career and overcoming surgery to throw again. My whole beef on this issue however is that overuse Is overuse and left unchecked may lead to Injury. You cant defIne overuse merely on the age they start..

I wholeheartedly agree. But to deny the fact that pitching at a young age has a negative effect on the arm's future health is being ignorant, in my opinion. Of course there are exceptions and of course there are ways to go about things to minimize the risk, but pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.

No matter the particular age, body, fitness level, strength, flexibility, genetics, training, etc. of a specific individual, pitching a baseball is a unnatural, violent act. As the NY Times article I posted above explains, MRI's of "healthy" (i.e. asymptomatic) arms and shoulders show accumulative abnormalities regardless of whether the arm/shoulder hurts at that moment. As Josh wisely says: "pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless." Whether this violent act leads, five feet or five hundred miles down the road, to a debilitating injury is not always predictable or inevitable. But, as Johnny Mathis once sang, "Chances are..."

The best simple advice any young pitcher can follow is...

-work hard and maintain fitness
-get proper instruction
-listen to your growing body--discomfort/pain is a signal to be heeded
-eat when hungry
-rest when tired
-don't overdo it

And here are my own personal opinions, based on nothing more than a very limited set of experiences:

-there's no need to throw a curve ball before you're 15 years old and there's every reason to develop a change-up as early as possible
-take some time off from baseball every year
-play other sports--at least recreationally--on a regular basis
-have fun

More interesting reading:

Prevention of arm injury in youth baseball pitchers.

Kerut EK, Kerut DG, Fleisig GS, Andrews JR.

J La State Med Soc. 2008 Mar-Apr;160(2):95-8.

Abstract
The advent of youth year-round baseball has come with an increased incidence of pitching related injury and surgery, most notably involving the shoulder and elbow (ulnar collateral ligament). These injuries become evident in high school and college, but begin at the youth level. Several studies have identified baseball pitching risk factors during youth that increase likelihood for injury and surgery in subsequent years. Based on these studies, the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee has published guidelines for pitching that include limits on pitch count and pitches per week and season as well as recommendations for number of rest days between pitching. Also, recommendations include the restriction of breaking balls prior to puberty, the importance of instruction for proper pitching mechanics as early as possible in development, and at least three months of rest after a season…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18681352

quote:

I can't speak for anyone else but only my opinion.
I live in FL, where often children play all year long. Others live in states where they get only a certain time of year to play. At 8 it wasn't LL, it was khoury league, and you pitched. My husband took him out of coach pitch because he wanted him to learn how to pitch at a young age.

I am saying I feel it wasn't necessary, and sorry that he didn't wait until later. I feel son threw unnecessarily at a young age.

Not sure why that is so hard a concept to ingest.

I live in California and there is a great temptation to play all year round with travel teams. So far son and I are able to resist that and just play in the LL. A lot of the travel teams will advertize that son should join, learn about holding base runners as a pitcher, bigger field, etc.. When son went on to the 60/90 big field last season, he balked twice in a row with runners on 2nd and 3rd, trying to hold the runners. It turned out that there were the only 2 runs he gave up in that game. Reason - this was the first time he was doing it. Consequences - immaterial, so what he lost that game. By end of the season, he had learned to step his hind leg of the rubber first before doing anything. What I am trying to tell parents is that don't jump the gun too much, kids will learn and continue to learn. So what if a kid learn how to hold a runner at 10. Would it make a difference compared to my son learning it at 13? Most likely not. Same with CB, sliders, cutters, etc.. However it is hard to resist the temptation as most parents would like their kids to get better fast and grow up fast and take it too seriously. Son play basketball, volleyball, football, track and field, s****r, swimming and just about any sports he could lay his hands/feet on in middle school. So this prevent us from focusing too narrowly on just baseball at such an early age.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by J H:
pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless.


No matter the particular age, body, fitness level, strength, flexibility, genetics, training, etc. of a specific individual, pitching a baseball is a unnatural, violent act. As the NY Times article I posted above explains, MRI's of "healthy" (i.e. asymptomatic) arms and shoulders show accumulative abnormalities regardless of whether the arm/shoulder hurts at that moment. As Josh wisely says: "pitching is going to cause injury to the arm regardless." Whether this violent act leads, five feet or five hundred miles down the road, to a debilitating injury is not always predictable or inevitable. But, as Johnny Mathis once sang, "Chances are..."

The best simple advice any young pitcher can follow is...

-work hard and maintain fitness
-get proper instruction
-listen to your growing body--discomfort/pain is a signal to be heeded
-eat when hungry
-rest when tired
-don't overdo it

And here are my own personal opinions, based on nothing more than a very limited set of experiences:

-there's no need to throw a curve ball before you're 15 years old and there's every reason to develop a change-up as early as possible
-take some time off from baseball every year
-play other sports--at least recreationally--on a regular basis
-have fun

Good read.

I and others have been offering basically the same parental advice for years as bball123 has suggested above. For some reason there is always an argument, not even discussion, just arguements from the same.

I am not involved in the game as a professional and neither are most here, but if I was seeking some good advice for my young pitcher, it would be from someone who has coached higher successful profile players or those that are in college or involved in the professional game at some capacity. That could be but not limited to MLB scouts, agents, or someone like Jerry Ford who has probably seen almost every top young pro pitcher who pitched at some point.

Those that have experienced major surgeries TJ or shoulder add good advice as to what they did (or son did), and how they would change things, with keeping in mind that all bodies develop differently and that most pitchers do not reach their peak performance and physical maturity until they are in their 20's. Some of these folks have also had face to face advice and conversations with some of the best doctors in the field of sports medicine. When a high profile doctor tells you as a player that IHO that you began the game too early, what more proof do you need to understand that maybe it wasn't all that important at 8,9 and just maybe even if everything your folks thought they were doing was right now with that scar on your elbow or shoulder and months of rehab and lost time you may have started a bit too early.

I don't give a cr ap about the scientific proof.

I would not accept explanations on what works and what doesn't from those that proclaim themselves to be self appointed professionals. In other words their scope of experience doesn't go past being a parent of a player that has not reached any level after HS, not yet secured a college commitment or scholarship and actually pitched 3-4 years minimum past HS to actually understand that no matter what, injuries will at some point strike. FWIW, all baseball players have some type of injury along the way, it's inevitable. It just is a bit more devastating for pitchers to have to take 10-12 months off for surgery for elbow or shoulder because there is always someone to take your place, no matter how good you were before. The only time you get multiple chances to prove your worth is if you have a team that has invested millions.

Pitchers that are injured are released from college programs as well as the professional ranks, every year. In this day and age, with the competition being as it is, not too many get second chances.

We brought our pitcher up on common sense. You don't have to be a rocket scientist or read major scientific publications to figure it all out. No year round bb, FB and change up development and use before cb or sliders, good mechanics, limited time on mound as a youth (bring it on when it really counts in HS) and a good amount of time away from it as well by participating in other sports (as metnied above), etc.

Son played less BB (and all positions when not pitching) than many that post here, be aware he did sustain injury, it is inevitable. Nothing major, set him back a bit. Ironically he throws HARD yet he has had less issues than RHP collegues/friends of his that throw with less intensity. Pitchers that throw hard are more suseptible to injury because they are used more often as young adults.
Even mlb teams are now taking their high velo guys and placing them in the pen when they move them up to the big leagues first year or maybe two.

Remarkable, son is still in the game.

Parents of young pitchers, please, please, do your homework, let your parental instinct (protecting your child as you would for anything else) guide you to make the right decisions.

TPM,
Sometimes parents who are aggressively developing their still-young players ("I'm real careful. I never let him pitch both ends of the doubleheader when the temperature gets above 105") remind me of the joke about the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building. As he passed the 30th floor, he yelled out, "I'm all right so far!"

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
TPM,
Sometimes parents who are aggressively developing their still-young players ("I'm real careful. I never let him pitch both ends of the doubleheader when the temperature gets above 105") remind me of the joke about the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building. As he passed the 30th floor, he yelled out, "I'm all right so far!"

I hear ya. I hear all the time how careful parents are, but every once in a while those stories surface. For example, "my son plays two leagues at 12 but he only pitches on one, the other he catches".

Pretty funny, Swampboy.

I was out on my customary 6-mile bike ride yesterday and rode past the ballfield. There was a group of what appeared to be 8-year olds warming up. I rode by a dad who was talking on his cell phone.

His exact words as I rode by: "You know he's the best player on this team, right?"

And so the insantity continues.

Classic, "my son at 8 had the best ERA (or BA) in his league".

I mean honestly, is that important and who cares!

All I am saying is that injury is caused by overuse. Almost every poster here has had a pitcher that at one point or another was overused, otherwise they would all be pain and injury free.

Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on. Becauae all pitchers have to start pitching at some point, it all cones down to how much they are overused, how well conditioned they are, genetic structure and mechanics, and smarts.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:

Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.

Thanks for letting us know.



I am extremely busy nowadays, especially with the added responsibility of strengthening my arm after I had surgery from Dr. Andrews, who told me that starting to pitch at the age of 9 most likely had a direct correlation with the tear of my UCL. But, if anyone does have some spare time, I invite you to pose this question on the ASMI message boards:

"Does the age at which one starts to pitch potentially have a bearing on if they will be injured later on?"

I have a hunch, Skylark, that you may not like the responses you see.

But then again, you probably wouldn't listen to them either. They haven't coached your son and his friends like you have...and that experience is infinitely more accurate.


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:

Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.

Thanks for letting us know.



I am extremely busy nowadays, especially with the added responsibility of strengthening my arm after I had surgery from Dr. Andrews, who told me that starting to pitch at the age of 9 most likely had a direct correlation with the tear of my UCL. But, if anyone does have some spare time, I invite you to pose this question on the ASMI message boards:

"Does the age at which one starts to pitch potentially have a bearing on if they will be injured later on?"

I have a hunch, Skylark, that you may not like the responses you see.

But then again, you probably wouldn't listen to them either. They haven't coached your son and his friends like you have...and that experience is infinitely more accurate.


You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Your injuries were because you overused your arm, pkain and simple. Your doctor even said it was from years of overuse. You can interpret it anyway you like, maybe even blame it on starting too youn but the teuth rwmaibs it was from overuse.

Perhaps you need to ask the real question-

Can a pitcher start pitching in little league and follow all the guidelibes of low pitch counts, proper teaching, at least 4-6 months off and still be around later on to pitch in high school and beyond?

Your dr. Andrews sure puts his sanction on it otherwise he wouldnt of made the recomendations in the first pkace.

I find it interesting that we both know that overuse is what leads to injury yet you want to keep arguing this point about the age when they start as if it plays the large role in injury prevention. Let me ask you this- Do you think my son damaged his arm by pitching for. 4 Montha the first year he pitched and then had the next 8 months off?

Skylark,

I just looked up JH's stats. In high school, he threw 52.2 innings as a junior and 36 as a senior. It appears he threw on short rest one time as a junior.

In college, he threw 20.1 innings as a freshman, 38.1 as a soph, and 50.0 as a junior.

He blew out his UCL early in the summer after his junior year.

In light of these moderate workloads, please explain how you know "overuse" (using your definition which does not recognize early starts to pitching careers as a component of overuse) caused his injury. Please tell us your basis for contradicting the judgment of the world's most pre-eminent baseball orthopedist, who has actually examined JH in person and operated on him. What overuse are you referring to and how can you associate it with his injury?

Josh,
Are you sure you're really a pitcher? Compared to a lot of guys I've seen, this looks like it might be an UNDER-USE injury. I think your UCL went bad because it rusted, got brittle, and then busted when you finally did wander out to the mound one day.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
Skylark,

I just looked up JH's stats. In high school, he threw 52.2 innings as a junior and 36 as a senior. It appears he threw on short rest one time as a junior.

In college, he threw 20.1 innings as a freshman, 38.1 as a soph, and 50.0 as a junior.

He blew out his UCL early in the summer after his junior year.

In light of these moderate workloads, please explain how you know "overuse" (using your definition which does not recognize early starts to pitching careers as a component of overuse) caused his injury. Please tell us your basis for contradicting the judgment of the world's most pre-eminent baseball orthopedist, who has actually examined JH in person and operated on him. What overuse are you referring to and how can you associate it with his injury?

Josh,
Are you sure you're really a pitcher? Compared to a lot of guys I've seen, this looks like it might be an UNDER-USE injury. I think your UCL went bad because it rusted, got brittle, and then busted when you finally did wander out to the mound one day.

Swampboy, I certainly cant soeak fir Josh. All I am going off of is what he stated about what his doctor told him- that it was many years of overuse. I dont know what leagues Josh all played in besides his hs and college leagues. I am sure he played more baseball than just the short high school and college seasobs. Ask Josh if you really want to know. I am just stating what he has already said- that his doctor said the injury occurred from many years of overuse. Usually ,overuse" means specifically "pitching too much".

Guess we read it differently. I thought JH reported Andrews saying there was most likely a connection between his injury and starting to pitch at age 9.

quote:

Originally posted by Skylark:
Take it how you want but the age at which one starts has no bearing on if they will be injured kater on.

It is impossible for a youth pitcher to both receive proper pitching instruction AND have clean mechanics. Impossible.

You can teach a young pitcher how to pitch, but the fact is no matter how you teach him his young body can't comprehend the fluidness, the kinetic chain, that is required for velocity. They simply don't have that mature physical control over their body yet.

So they cheat.

The young pitcher learns to torque his shoulder in such a way to glean that extra bit of velocity. Learns that slurves and knuckleballs and college sliders get people out. But at what price?

True pitching is a difficult art. Same arm speed, same slot, same follow through. You can't teach that to a young pitcher, no matter how hard you try.

This is why young pitchers accumulate damage. They cheat. Usually to please dads like you.