William and Mary's letter to the NCAA is at http://www.wm.edu/NCAA. A wonderfully well-written letter by the College President that intellectually tweaks the NCAA...but then again, maybe they won't understand that either.
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Nice post, thanks.
I don't know, I just think there is way too much to worry about in this world than all of this trivial meaningless nonsense.
My family also originated from a "tribe", but were not native americans.
Don't these people GET it?
I don't know, I just think there is way too much to worry about in this world than all of this trivial meaningless nonsense.
My family also originated from a "tribe", but were not native americans.
Don't these people GET it?
TPM, NO they don't get it. They're too busy living the life of oxymorons.
Remember, Political Correctness....ISN'T!
Remember, Political Correctness....ISN'T!
06catcherdad:
Love your tagline!
Love your tagline!
WOW!! Had to break out Roget's to figure that one out
In case anyone else is wondering what I was saying with "Political Correctness...isn't"; I'm basically saying that PC is the ultimate oxymoron, in my opinion.
It's only three words, so I figured it would be a little more obvious. I certainly believe it is true.
It's only three words, so I figured it would be a little more obvious. I certainly believe it is true.
I forgot to add that President Nichols letter is excellent. But, what else would you expect from a University President?
By the way, I'm wrong about Political Correctness being the ultimate oxymoron. I've always thought that the term "Religious War" was in incredibly oxymoronic term. Those who start war in the name of God are the ultimate morons. Sorry if that offends any of our muslim readers, but that is how I see it. Killing other people in God's name is actually way beyond moronic. PC still ranks right up there, though.
By the way, I'm wrong about Political Correctness being the ultimate oxymoron. I've always thought that the term "Religious War" was in incredibly oxymoronic term. Those who start war in the name of God are the ultimate morons. Sorry if that offends any of our muslim readers, but that is how I see it. Killing other people in God's name is actually way beyond moronic. PC still ranks right up there, though.
hokieone.....thanks for posting the Nichol letter. Enjoyed reading it....the NCAA may get it, but they'll continue on as usual.....with that kind of an athlete graduation rate.....the NCAA should be applauding W&M.....
very well thought out and written
it should be delivered to the NCAA in an audio format or they'll need someone literate to read and explain it to them
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it should be delivered to the NCAA in an audio format or they'll need someone literate to read and explain it to them
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Impressive, thoughtful letter. One can only hope the new president of local Indiana University of Pennsylvania (IUP), Dr. Tony Atwater, can cut and paste and send. Long live the Indiana (we'll have to change the name of our town, too!) INDIANS!
ARROWS through the heart of political correctness and the DEMISE of common sense!
PAmom
Indiana (named FOR native Americans), PA
ARROWS through the heart of political correctness and the DEMISE of common sense!
PAmom
Indiana (named FOR native Americans), PA
Very impressive letter.
For those who have never visited the campus of William and Mary, it should be on your "to do" list if ever in Virginia. It is a fine, fine university and a beautiful campus.
For those who have never visited the campus of William and Mary, it should be on your "to do" list if ever in Virginia. It is a fine, fine university and a beautiful campus.
PAmom.
The word "Tribe" has many connotations and depicts (for example) Jews and Celts in many ancient history tomes. It singles out a group that has an ethnic identity.
It sure beats "Indians" a term which has been used to degrade the Native American culture since the time the Caucasions showed up at Plymouth.
The word "Tribe" has many connotations and depicts (for example) Jews and Celts in many ancient history tomes. It singles out a group that has an ethnic identity.
It sure beats "Indians" a term which has been used to degrade the Native American culture since the time the Caucasions showed up at Plymouth.
A tribe is also a large family
PAMOM
Do we have to change the name of the State of Indiana now????
This is quite confusing-- the Seminoles in Florida are cool but other tribes are not--and Indians can own casinos while Italians cannot !!! what is that all about!!! We have a casino in CT owned by a tribe with under 400 family memebers--I know Italian families with more members than that !!
Do we have to change the name of the State of Indiana now????
This is quite confusing-- the Seminoles in Florida are cool but other tribes are not--and Indians can own casinos while Italians cannot !!! what is that all about!!! We have a casino in CT owned by a tribe with under 400 family memebers--I know Italian families with more members than that !!
nole, now my native american friends are "NAIVE" americans - as you label their term "Indian" as derrogatory??quote:by sox: It sure beats "Indians" a term which has been used to degrade the Native American culture
TR - ALL italian families have over 400 members, but they are always at dinner so could never count casino proceeds
.
I don't know about you, but "naive Americans" sounds pretty derogatory to me... 
BEE
You do like the Indians do--hire others to work for them
This entire "mascot thing" is so stupid--why is one tribe better than others--obviously the Seminoles have agreat "business deal" in Florida so they are KEWL
Why do people have to find some ethnic BS in everything and those that do usually have skeltons in their closet
I know I look at it all in positive vein-- they are being honored by being named as a mascot
You do like the Indians do--hire others to work for them
This entire "mascot thing" is so stupid--why is one tribe better than others--obviously the Seminoles have agreat "business deal" in Florida so they are KEWL
Why do people have to find some ethnic BS in everything and those that do usually have skeltons in their closet
I know I look at it all in positive vein-- they are being honored by being named as a mascot
The letter was brilliant. But as a service to the people who run the NCAA, I'd like to offer a translation:
Why do Italians always seem to own cement factories?
Why does every Oriental restaurant advertise no MSG? I can't care if they don't have cable.
Why are the Irish always depicted as drunk? I don't need to drink to be wild.
Why do college seem to think it's OK to name their teams after animals? I mean, Radar was right: Animals are people, too.
Lighten up, Francis!
There are plenty of real issues in college athletics. Do something constructive for a change.
Why do Italians always seem to own cement factories?
Why does every Oriental restaurant advertise no MSG? I can't care if they don't have cable.
Why are the Irish always depicted as drunk? I don't need to drink to be wild.
Why do college seem to think it's OK to name their teams after animals? I mean, Radar was right: Animals are people, too.
Lighten up, Francis!
There are plenty of real issues in college athletics. Do something constructive for a change.
After 200 years of teaching children that Columbus discovered America, I applaud the NCAA for their efforts to properly educate college students on one of the great tragedies in American history. Prior to the 15th century it is estimated that 20 million native peoples lived in North America. They had an advanced society with a diverse agricultural, religious and social structures. By the time the Pilgrims arrived less than 1 million survived. After that time, a series of genocidal acts forced them from their lands, systematically eliminated their culture and for generations forced them to the periphary of American society. The fact that they have in recent years used the American system to enforce their treaties which gave them soveriegnty over their native lands (on which they built casinos) and their new found economic power to lobby for the respect that was stolen from them is a small price to pay for their greviances. What can be more important than to teach our future leaders the truth about our historical treatment of other peoples. If history is not learned, we are doomed to repeat it. They are after all Student-athletes.
First, OldVaman, Italians don't all seem to own cement factories. We all own GARBAGE COMPANIES, that is; we did before we sold them to BFI or Waste Management.
Second, one of my good friends is a CREE Indian who lives on a reservation in Montana. He, and the other members of the tribe that I've come to know, all get a good chuckle out of how society wrings its hands over how to refer to the Indians. They call themselves Indians, and think that "Native Americans" are the Indians that live in cities. They are proud to call themselves Indians, but are more proud to be CREE. Great guys that I've had a lot of fun with!
Second, one of my good friends is a CREE Indian who lives on a reservation in Montana. He, and the other members of the tribe that I've come to know, all get a good chuckle out of how society wrings its hands over how to refer to the Indians. They call themselves Indians, and think that "Native Americans" are the Indians that live in cities. They are proud to call themselves Indians, but are more proud to be CREE. Great guys that I've had a lot of fun with!
06catcherdad
See, it goes to show you. I was ready to bet that TR would be the first to respond on this one.
Oops, I said bet. That's another problem for another day.
See, it goes to show you. I was ready to bet that TR would be the first to respond on this one.
Oops, I said bet. That's another problem for another day.
quote:Prior to the 15th century it is estimated that 20 million native peoples lived in North America. They had an advanced society with a diverse agricultural, religious and social structures. By the time the Pilgrims arrived less than 1 million survived.
Del...Where did you dig up this nonsense?
You are making a "point" that prior to the 15th century, there were 20 million native peoples and since the Pilgrims landed in 1600+ at Plymouth, in the 150 years or so, their population declined from 20 million plus to 1 million or so.
To what do you attribute that decline? And don't tell me the cavalry, cowboys, trappers or white settlers.
As far as "advanced society..." LOLOLOLOLOLOL.
They were Indians that hunted buffalo with bows and arrows, for gosh sakes.
Next thing I know, you'll be telling me that Alito is a liberal!!!!!!!
Deldad,
I understand what you have posted, however do understand the original intent was to force schools that depicted the "Indians" or "Native Americans" in a negative way to comply with PC changes.
Instead of asking those schools to change mascots that may have been offensive, the NCAA would not do so, therefore, using the great infinite wisdom we have come to know, targeted everyone.
Making W & M comply because they call themselves the "tribe" means little to me as I do not associate the word to "Indians" or "Native Americans".
I have many friends here, who refer themselves to their tribe, for clarification, not because it is politically incorrect. Where I live being an Indian doesn't always mean native american.
Deldad,
Hope your son is doing well!
I understand what you have posted, however do understand the original intent was to force schools that depicted the "Indians" or "Native Americans" in a negative way to comply with PC changes.
Instead of asking those schools to change mascots that may have been offensive, the NCAA would not do so, therefore, using the great infinite wisdom we have come to know, targeted everyone.
Making W & M comply because they call themselves the "tribe" means little to me as I do not associate the word to "Indians" or "Native Americans".
I have many friends here, who refer themselves to their tribe, for clarification, not because it is politically incorrect. Where I live being an Indian doesn't always mean native american.
Deldad,
Hope your son is doing well!
Geez ....
It's getting so we can't just enjoy hearing about someone yanking the NCAA's chain.
Do we have to over-analyze, over-criticize and run every durn post thru the spell checker too????
W&M did durn good !!!!!!!! Hey !!!!!!
It's getting so we can't just enjoy hearing about someone yanking the NCAA's chain.
Do we have to over-analyze, over-criticize and run every durn post thru the spell checker too????
W&M did durn good !!!!!!!! Hey !!!!!!
It's just displaced energy. With no baseball, we're all bored! I just LOVE the folks at W&M - go Tribe!
P.S. I took Deldad's post as hyperbole. No?
P.S. I took Deldad's post as hyperbole. No?
I dont understand the selectivity.
No Indian Mascots - but you can have a team called "The Fighting Squirrels".
If you were a peace loving squirrel - just digging up acorns and climbing trees - not bothering anyone - how would you feel?
Have you ever seen a squirrel fight?
I think not.
Only one time did I see a squirrel get a little angry and lash out. I was in Southern California - and this big Moose - for no apparent reason - tried to trample the unsuspecting squirrel.
The squirrel was - understandably upset.
He screamed an obscenity at the moose - threw an acorn - and then ran away.
I dont think that one isolated incident like this should define squirreldom - and I think the NCAA "braintrust" should immediately put down their mocha lattes and correct what is yet another horrific and ongoing injustice.
It's not fair!!!
No Indian Mascots - but you can have a team called "The Fighting Squirrels".
If you were a peace loving squirrel - just digging up acorns and climbing trees - not bothering anyone - how would you feel?
Have you ever seen a squirrel fight?
I think not.
Only one time did I see a squirrel get a little angry and lash out. I was in Southern California - and this big Moose - for no apparent reason - tried to trample the unsuspecting squirrel.
The squirrel was - understandably upset.
He screamed an obscenity at the moose - threw an acorn - and then ran away.
I dont think that one isolated incident like this should define squirreldom - and I think the NCAA "braintrust" should immediately put down their mocha lattes and correct what is yet another horrific and ongoing injustice.
It's not fair!!!
Uh oh, I see a deja vu coming! 
You had to bring up the fighting squirrels?
You had to bring up the fighting squirrels?
Deldad, if the 20 million INDIANS were down to 1 million by the time the pilgrims arrived, as you say, what the heck did the white man have to do with their decline? If you'd have asserted that they delcined 15 or 20 years after the while man arrived, you might have a shred of credibility in decrying the white man, but to say they declined by the time the white man landed; I have to wonder why you're feeling the guilt.
I said it before and I'll say it again. Political Correctness...isn't!
I said it before and I'll say it again. Political Correctness...isn't!
The North American continent was frequently visited by Europeans between the time of Columbus and the Pilgrims. Smallpox and other diseases carried to america by the Europeans was the major cause of the decline. And that's right I forgot that if it wasn't developed in Europe it can't be a society regardless of the fact that they had cities, language, arts, music, religion, sports and diverse economic systems. Just mere savages hunting buffalo in loin clothes. The stereotypes just go on and on.
Hyperbole maybe. Are we responsible for the sins of those before us? Does that force us who have no fault in the past to suffer the PC of today? "TRIBE" is fine with me as are those groups such as the Seminoles who wish to associate with a particular school.
As far as the facts in my first post I would love to provide a bibliography for your winter reading just PM me at any time.
Hyperbole maybe. Are we responsible for the sins of those before us? Does that force us who have no fault in the past to suffer the PC of today? "TRIBE" is fine with me as are those groups such as the Seminoles who wish to associate with a particular school.
As far as the facts in my first post I would love to provide a bibliography for your winter reading just PM me at any time.
Political correctness run amuck.
del...I would...but I don't want any comic books.
quote:We have a casino in CT owned by a tribe with under 400 family memebers--I know Italian families with more members than that !!
HAHA!! Yeah, MINE!
The fact is---NONE of these schools have named their teams with derogatory intent. Like I said---the demise of common sense. Boggles the mind.
PAmom...whether or not the original intent is well meaning or self serving is not the issue.
"Chief Illiniwek" is the official mascot for the University of Illinois. His silly dances and antics generally could be compared to "little black Sambo" or "the Irish drunk". This is why the term "Indian" or "Brave"...or any historically innaccurate reference aggravates Native American's.
The term "Illini" is another example. It is a word made up by white men to describe five (5) different tribes that resided in and around Illinois. Thanks to the the white mans "progress", none of these tribes exist today.
Schools that have a long history and dialouge with a particular tribe (Seminoles and Sioux) and are supported by the tribe are in an entirely different position than the University of Illinois which has allowed the "Chief" and their nickname to essentially mock Native American's in general.
"Chief Illiniwek" is the official mascot for the University of Illinois. His silly dances and antics generally could be compared to "little black Sambo" or "the Irish drunk". This is why the term "Indian" or "Brave"...or any historically innaccurate reference aggravates Native American's.
The term "Illini" is another example. It is a word made up by white men to describe five (5) different tribes that resided in and around Illinois. Thanks to the the white mans "progress", none of these tribes exist today.
Schools that have a long history and dialouge with a particular tribe (Seminoles and Sioux) and are supported by the tribe are in an entirely different position than the University of Illinois which has allowed the "Chief" and their nickname to essentially mock Native American's in general.
soxnole---
So where does it end? And where does that leave the town in which I live, "INDIANA," as well as the state? Were the founders "mocking" when they named? Puleeeeeeeeze!!
So where does it end? And where does that leave the town in which I live, "INDIANA," as well as the state? Were the founders "mocking" when they named? Puleeeeeeeeze!!
You need to brush up on your history.
Respect is not a word used by the majority of "pioneers" and especially our government during the time when "Indiana" got its name. Mocking would be a relief to any Native American compared to what was done by the Conquistadores like DeSoto. These people used dogs and fast horses to hunt down "Indians" in order to find Gold, salt and other riches.
History uses the word....decimation.
The French and especially the English showed no mercy to these native people.
The US government followed suit during the "Indian Wars"
Respect is not a word used by the majority of "pioneers" and especially our government during the time when "Indiana" got its name. Mocking would be a relief to any Native American compared to what was done by the Conquistadores like DeSoto. These people used dogs and fast horses to hunt down "Indians" in order to find Gold, salt and other riches.
History uses the word....decimation.
The French and especially the English showed no mercy to these native people.
The US government followed suit during the "Indian Wars"
I think we need to re-fight the Civil War too ...
While we are at it, might has well take on the joint Anglo-French-American invasion of Russia.
.......................
While we are at it, might has well take on the joint Anglo-French-American invasion of Russia.
.......................
Thanks, H3...I'm done! He can have the last politically correct word.
I'm from Illinois and I like Chief Illiniwek.
Go to Wisconsin Dells and see the shows the Indians put on for $20.00/pop. If that stuff doesn't denigrate the Indians, then NOTHING DOES!!!!!!!
Leave the Chief alone and do something about the TRUE MOCKERY of Indians going on North of the border.
Go to Wisconsin Dells and see the shows the Indians put on for $20.00/pop. If that stuff doesn't denigrate the Indians, then NOTHING DOES!!!!!!!
Leave the Chief alone and do something about the TRUE MOCKERY of Indians going on North of the border.
The whole debate is absurd, of course. Not because Indians or their culture are absurd or should be belittled, but because the debate has nothing to do with the Indians or their legacy. The debate, however cloaked, is about who is going to dictate how we think in this country. A small minority wants to tell the majority what to think and how to think. When the debate over Indian imagery is over, the arguments won't stop; they'll just continue with a new issue.
The issue is political correctness. Period. We must never give up or back down. Too much is at stake.
The issue is political correctness. Period. We must never give up or back down. Too much is at stake.
I beg to differ.......PC is NOT the problem. The NCAA's playing big brother and....people
believing that a majority opinion, however flawed, is the right way...are the problems.
The U.S. Government and the majority of European "pioneers" thought it was OK to erase Native American's from their land, culture and participation in said government.
This kind of thinking is what has led to mocking Native American's and it does not make it right!
believing that a majority opinion, however flawed, is the right way...are the problems.
The U.S. Government and the majority of European "pioneers" thought it was OK to erase Native American's from their land, culture and participation in said government.
This kind of thinking is what has led to mocking Native American's and it does not make it right!