Wearing wrist bands with signals on them.

coach2709 posted: I'll be honest and say that I haven't kept up with this topic as I only get to peruse occasionally now a days but what I've read the question is from stats is where is data / empirical evidence showing that coaches calling the game is more successful.  Well when I read that what pops in my mind is where is the data / empirical evidence showing catcher / pitcher calling their own game and their success rate?  That data is about as abundant as the data showing coaches calling games success rate.  This is literally something nobody at the HS level is going to track.  Plus there are SOOOO many factors to consider that it makes it impossible to track.  I would guess it would take several years to compile this data.  It's just not worth it.  Come up with a system you like and are comfortable with that you can teach and run with it.

This spring I'm back in the saddle after being out for 9 years and I have a completely new staff with a bunch of guys that due to me coaching softball I haven't got a chance to watch play much.  There's a lot of unknowns going on here.  My pitching coach and I have talked extensively about philosophy and how we want to approach hitters.  While he and I are on the same page there is still going to be a learning curve.  My catcher is a senior and has started for 3 years.  My PC is going to call the game early in the season and turn that duty over to him as the season progresses.  With all the newness going on I'm not going to trust games to him until he shows he understands what we want.  So first 2 or 3 games PC calls the game.  Next few games we will let him call certain innings / batters but the entire time we are going to talk to him.  If he doesn't get what we want then PC will call the games.

You’re correct that there are lots of factors involved, but nothing’s impossible if someone really wanted to track it. There just has to be a willingness to do it. IEBSBL and ironhorse are likely typical of coaches who do, where they only look at a small number of factors and use the results to help them make their decisions. Ironhorse looks at FB vs OS by count. IEBSBL incorporates cursory pitch locations, whether the pitch was swung at, the runner and out situation, and the result of the PA. And that’s only 2 guys out of tens of thousands, so it’s not that there isn’t an abundance of data out there. The problem is, the data isn’t kept in a form that can be easily interrogated, such as an electronic database.

As to whether or not it would be “worth” it to have the data and a way to interrogate it, that’s the topic for another debate. My firm belief is there wouldn’t be much of a difference no matter who called the pitches, but the only way to know for sure is track what happens when the catcher calls pitches and compare it to when the bench calls pitches. If you really do as you plan, that should be a pretty simple thing to do. Just compare opponent performance however you want to measure it, and look at it for the 3 different scenarios, i.e. bench calling, catcher calling, a combination of the two.

You said; With all the newness going on I'm not going to trust games to him until he shows he understands what we want. What is it you want? It seems to me that that’s the real question. How will you determine If he doesn't get what we want?

BTW, I wish you nothing but the best of luck in the upcoming season! Will you be using MaxPreps or something like it?

 My firm belief is there wouldn’t be much of a difference no matter who called the pitches,

Based on that reasoning, maybe I should consider having a player call the shots in the third base coaching box.

freddy77 posted:

 My firm belief is there wouldn’t be much of a difference no matter who called the pitches,

Based on that reasoning, maybe I should consider having a player call the shots in the third base coaching box.

Good point.  IMHO all this discussion about HS catchers calling pitches is utter nonsense. 

Stats.....

The 2's are actually Breaking Balls.  I forgot that I had an assistant coach who took it upon himself to do the charts and felt more comfortable with what he was doing and used two as a breaking ball.

I am open to suggestions to put them on computer if you have any.  I am listening.

freddy77 posted: Based on that reasoning, maybe I should consider having a player call the shots in the third base coaching box.

 What does “calling the shots” have to do with calling pitches?

 Assume for a moment that every pitch you call from the bench is the best possible choice, i.e. is the best opportunity to get the batter to do precisely what you want. What would you estimate the chances were that the pitchers would execute correctly, i.e. put the pitch exactly where he wanted it thrown with the perfect mechanics to make the pitch the most effective for that pitcher? Then estimate the chances the hitter would respond exactly as expected.

 My point is, calling pitches is a far cry from an exact science. All anyone can do is call a pitch they “feel” is the best for the situation at hand, hope the pitcher can execute it correctly, hope the hitter reacts to it as planned, and hope the result is what was expected.

 If you want to believe calling the pitches from the bench will give the pitcher a better chance of proper execution, by all means keep calling pitches from the bench. But if that isn’t true, what difference does it make?

Stats4Gnats posted:

coach2709 posted: I'll be honest and say that I haven't kept up with this topic as I only get to peruse occasionally now a days but what I've read the question is from stats is where is data / empirical evidence showing that coaches calling the game is more successful.  Well when I read that what pops in my mind is where is the data / empirical evidence showing catcher / pitcher calling their own game and their success rate?  That data is about as abundant as the data showing coaches calling games success rate.  This is literally something nobody at the HS level is going to track.  Plus there are SOOOO many factors to consider that it makes it impossible to track.  I would guess it would take several years to compile this data.  It's just not worth it.  Come up with a system you like and are comfortable with that you can teach and run with it.

This spring I'm back in the saddle after being out for 9 years and I have a completely new staff with a bunch of guys that due to me coaching softball I haven't got a chance to watch play much.  There's a lot of unknowns going on here.  My pitching coach and I have talked extensively about philosophy and how we want to approach hitters.  While he and I are on the same page there is still going to be a learning curve.  My catcher is a senior and has started for 3 years.  My PC is going to call the game early in the season and turn that duty over to him as the season progresses.  With all the newness going on I'm not going to trust games to him until he shows he understands what we want.  So first 2 or 3 games PC calls the game.  Next few games we will let him call certain innings / batters but the entire time we are going to talk to him.  If he doesn't get what we want then PC will call the games.

You’re correct that there are lots of factors involved, but nothing’s impossible if someone really wanted to track it. There just has to be a willingness to do it. IEBSBL and ironhorse are likely typical of coaches who do, where they only look at a small number of factors and use the results to help them make their decisions. Ironhorse looks at FB vs OS by count. IEBSBL incorporates cursory pitch locations, whether the pitch was swung at, the runner and out situation, and the result of the PA. And that’s only 2 guys out of tens of thousands, so it’s not that there isn’t an abundance of data out there. The problem is, the data isn’t kept in a form that can be easily interrogated, such as an electronic database.

As to whether or not it would be “worth” it to have the data and a way to interrogate it, that’s the topic for another debate. My firm belief is there wouldn’t be much of a difference no matter who called the pitches, but the only way to know for sure is track what happens when the catcher calls pitches and compare it to when the bench calls pitches. If you really do as you plan, that should be a pretty simple thing to do. Just compare opponent performance however you want to measure it, and look at it for the 3 different scenarios, i.e. bench calling, catcher calling, a combination of the two.

You said; With all the newness going on I'm not going to trust games to him until he shows he understands what we want. What is it you want? It seems to me that that’s the real question. How will you determine If he doesn't get what we want?

BTW, I wish you nothing but the best of luck in the upcoming season! Will you be using MaxPreps or something like it?

Thank you and hopefully they are able to overcome any of my shortcomings and be successful.  Had our first workout today and got me excited although I'm on crutches right now after knee surgery.  Wasn't able to do much myself but I think overall we got better.

I will say that my almost decade off has changed my thinking about numbers and how to create a lineup.  I'm going to base my decisions on OBP, OPS and number of pitches seen.  I'm a huge Chicago Cubs fan and watching their philosophy and how Maddon makes the lineup just blows my mind.  I love it and have been trying to read up on it as much as I can.

Anyway, back to your question of what I want - I want to turn my guys loose and be able to play the game.  I don't want to think for them so it's up to me and my staff to get this accomplished.  But if along the way we feel it's not happening then we will and have to think for them for us to be successful. 

How will we know?  Well it's kinda like that old phrase "I can't explain what art is but I know it when I see it" (disclaimer - they didn't use art but a word that rhymes with torn).  Early when we are calling pitches we are going to explain why we called what we called.  This is where we hope the learning takes place during games and bullpen sessions.  As we let him call innings the dialogue will continue.  Why did he call this pitch in this situation? If he can explain why then he is getting it and if he can't then he's not getting it.

IEBSBL posted: Stats.....

The 2's are actually Breaking Balls.  I forgot that I had an assistant coach who took it upon himself to do the charts and felt more comfortable with what he was doing and used two as a breaking ball.

I am open to suggestions to put them on computer if you have any.  I am listening.

Let’s see if I can come up with something that lets you take what’s on that chart and put it into an electronic database. Since I’ve done this a few times before, I’m gonna need to ask some questions. I am not criticizing what you’ve done, but I do need to make sure I’m on the same page as you.

Each chart represents 1 game, so I’ll start there. To me, the 1^st important thing is a date. And just because I’ve had trouble with playing more than 1 game in a day, I’d put in a game number as well. That way it’s possible to break games out.

Assuming you might want this information for both your pitchers as well as the opponent’s, I’d have a team name and an opponent’s name as well. Something a lot of folks don’t think about, but I’ve had a lot of use for is the type of game being played. The 3 types I deal with a lot are non-conference games, conference games, and post season games. I don’t do it, but it would be easy enough to have a scrimmage type as well. That’s the easy stuff.

From your picture I see you’re using this chart to relate what the pitchers are doing to the hitters. That’s OK but it does mean we have to make sure we allow for that. From that perspective, the next thing I see we need to keep track of is the BPos, and with that the name of the hitter. I see you list the data on the sheet by the PA of the BPos. IOW, for the #1 spot there are 4 PAs. To me it’s a sound piece of data to track because you’d be able to break out the data by 1^st PAs, 2^nd PAs, etc. Trouble is, since all pitchers and all hitters are on the same sheet, you’d have to make sure whoever put in the data made sure they got it right. Personally, I wouldn’t suggest going beyond the BPos and name.

Now we come to situation. This really complicates things but if it gets broken down it shouldn’t cause too much trouble. What it looks like to me is the number of outs and the position of any runners is what’s really being looked at, as well as when an inning starts. The last one’s simple enough. It’s a T/F field and when a PA is the 1^st of an inning it can be marked “T”, otherwise it will always be “F”.

Then you have the number of outs. Of course the 1^st batter of an inning will be 0, then the number of outs changes as necessary. Same with the runners. There are 8 possible runner situations. That’s all easy enough as long as the number of outs and the position of the runners doesn’t change during a PA. The easiest way to handle this issue is to not associate the outs or the runners to a PA, but rather to a pitch. That way if either or both change they can be easily taken care of.

The next thing is the count. Of course there are 12 possible counts, but the only ones needing to be tracked are the ones that actually happen. FI, if the 1^st pitch is put into play, the only entry needed would be the one for 0-0.

The final thing I see being tracked is the result of the PA. This one could cause a lot of problems unless everyone enters the result the same way. FI, if Billy enters 6-3 for a ground out to short and Tommy enters “GO”, it would make for a “messy” final report.

Be all that as it may, I’ve worked up a data input form to tinker around with. Please see the attachment.

The data below is data I entered from the 1^st PA from the picture you posted. Of course that form is cursory and very simple. I’ll tinker some more with it tomorrow to see how fast I can make the data entry, including some automatic verification of inputs to keep as much bad data from out of the database as possible. Right now it takes about 5 seconds per record entered.

Ok, how do you make 1 of those things you attached?

IEBSBL posted:

Ok, how do you make 1 of those things you attached?

What I do is take a screen shot, paste it in a word doc, use the picture tools to crop it, copy it into a clean doc, then print it to a PDF. It sounds complicated but it only takes about 15 seconds.

I hope you're able to post something better than that pic of the chart. I'm almost to the point where I'm about ready to put the entire page into the database and it would be easier with a better pic.

Stats:

This is the best I can do at the current time.  Apparently we no longer have access to scanning from our classrooms with the new updated computers.  If it is not good enough, let me know and I will figure it out.  This is the same sheet I posted before.

Stats4Gnats posted:

IEBSBL posted:

Ok, how do you make 1 of those things you attached?

What I do is take a screen shot, paste it in a word doc, use the picture tools to crop it, copy it into a clean doc, then print it to a PDF. It sounds complicated but it only takes about 15 seconds.

No, I know that.  I mean that program or whatever you are actually putting this information into.

That pic is a lot better, but it does bring up some other “issues”. I don’t want to sound like I’m chiding you because I love the effort to gather data, so don’t feel attacked. You’ve done what almost always happens. You started simple but gradually things got complicated.

 Now you’re charting much more than you might realize, and the problem is, you haven’t put a “key” of all those things on the chart. I’ll work with what I see, but chances are I’m gonna be taking a lot of blind alleys. And just so you know, the more things you try to track, the longer the inputting process is. Personally I think that time is well worth it, but if you won’t be using that information ou might want to think about not tracking it.

I’m guessing you mean the actual form. I happen to use visual FoxPro, but there are gozillions of similar packages out there. Visual basic is the programming language. I like VFP because I’ve been using it so long. It has wizzards in it that do a lot of the work, but there’s a fair amount of programming involved as well. The real trick is to know what you want to save and how you’ll want to present it, and the more precise those things are, the easier it is.

 In the end you can put it on the hard drive or a thumb drive. It’ll only be a few files and can be run from the file explorer or an icon if you know how to make one. Nothing on the system is changed and its completely mobile so you can give it to whomever you want. When you get tired of it, all ya gotta do is delete it.

After looking at the better pic, I see there are some additional things I need to account for. I get that if a pitch is circled it was a strike. Your key says to dot swinging strikes but I see no dots. It also says to square pitches put into play, but I see no squared pitches even though there were several put into play. It also says to underline pitches that were swung at but weren’t strikes, but I see none of those either.

 You’ve already explained that you’re only tracking FBs and OS pitches with a 1 or 2 but I assume you want other pitch types marked as well since you put a pitch type key on the chart.

 What does the line above the pitch mean? The best I can make out it’s a swing.

 I assume you don’t want to differentiate between a foul ball and a swing and a miss.

 Here’s some food for thought. There are a lot of ways to gather data and a lot of ways to use it. Let’s say you want to be able to look at what an opposing pitcher does and he pitches to 20 batters. It would make sense to look at his data in a linear way from 1^st batter to 20^th. But if you want to see how your batters did you’d want to look at that data the way you have it, which is how a standard scoresheet is set up.

 From the perspective of data input, it’s easier to put things in as they happen, i.e. 1^st batter to last. The reason is, the person putting it in can self-check from one batter to the next. Putting things in by batter means the record you’re putting in has no relation to the prior one or the one that follows. In your case it also means when there’s a pitching change you have to change the pitchers name many times.

 For ease of data entry, you’d want to put in records where the least amount of data changes as possible. When I put in the data for that pic, I’ll do the 1^st PA for the 1^st BPos, then the 1^st PA for the 2^nd BPos, etc. and well see how it goes.

  What throws a monkey wrench into it is that because 2 names will have to go in for every record because you want batter information included, no matter how the data’s entered, at least one name will need to be typed for every record, and that’s a lot of keystrokes.

Gotta have some help until I get used to what’s goin’ on.

 Looking at the 1^st batter of the game, nobody on and no outs, it looks like the 1^st pitch was a FB taken for a ball. That would mean the 2^nd pitch was 10 but it’s listed as 01. It looks like that pitch was taken for a strike which would make the next pitch on a 11 count. That pitch was a FB for a ball so the next pitch would be 21. It looks like it was a swinging strike on a FB to make the count 22. That pitch was an OS pitch for a ball making it 32 and the next pitch was a FB ball for a walk.

 The 2^nd PA for the #1 BPos was pretty easy. 1 out 2 runners on. FB for a swinging strike. Curve for a swinging strike. FB for another swinging strike.

 The 3^rd PA is a bit difficult. 2 outs, runners on 1^st and 3^rd. 1^st pitch was a swinging strike. 2^nd pitch was an swinging strike on an OS pitch, but it looks like there was a play on and a runner was thrown out on a POCS. That should end the PA, but the result column has F8 in it.

 That would make it the end of the inning, but the 3^rd PA for the #2 BPos starts with 1 out.

 Once again, I AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE YOU LOOK BAD!! I’m just pointing out what might pose problems for someone trying to enter the data. I’m guessing you might have a team manager or some other volunteer doing that, which only makes sense. But if that’s the case, they’ll be like me and be trying to reconcile what they see on the sheet with what they know about what the markings mean.

 I’m slowly working out the bugs, but it’s definitely getting better.

OK, here’s the data from the 1^st 2 batting positions. Please see attachment.

 I wanted to get something printed out to get a better picture of the whole thing. I know it’s not real slick, but I’m flyin’ blind, not trying to dot every “I” and cross every “T”, and goin’ as fast as I can.

Put in another batter and generated a report to show what pitches are thrown on what counts.

OK, I got the whole sheet put in. Take a look at the attachment and you’ll see the 1^st report is simply one showing the number of pitches in each count that were either a FB or a curve. That’s because you said:

 IEBSBL posted:Stats.....

The 2's are actually Breaking Balls.  I forgot that I had an assistant coach who took it upon himself to do the charts and felt more comfortable with what he was doing and used two as a breaking ball.

I am open to suggestions to put them on computer if you have any.  I am listening.

After having done an entire game, I still have a few questions, but also have a few suggestions.

What made it very difficult for me was trying to interpret what the entries meant. I suspect that’s because the “Key” at the bottom of the form didn’t explain all the markings. So my 1^st suggest is, redo your form/chart. Make sure you list all the things you want marked and how you want them marked. There’s a reason for that suggestion. CONSISTENCY. That way no matter who you have doing the charting, they’ll be doing it the same way.

It sounds to me as though your asst coach found out how difficult it was to correctly ID those 5 different possible pitches in the pitch key and did what was easy. A pitch is either a FB or not, not a FB or a breaking pitch. The reason is, there are lot of pitches that aren’t FBs but don’t break. Would it be nice to know the precise pitch that was thrown? U bet. But that’s really tough to do because there are so many ways to throw any conceivable pitch.

 Think about what information is the most useful. If a pitch isn’t a FB, does it really matter if it’s a CU, Curve, Slider, Split, or Knuckler? Is it important to know whether a pitch was a cutter, sinker, or 4S FB? So is it more useful to know if a pitch is a FB or OS pitch, or FB or breaking pitch. Believe me, the difference is important since a good cutter or sinker is a breaking pitch as well as a FB and many CUs don’t break but aren’t FBs.

 Quit marking the situation, outs and runners, in that 1^st column and make a place for it in every count column. That way when the situation changes during a PA, it’s easy to show it. Ex: batter comes up with 1 outs and runners on 1^st and 3^rd. Mark that in the 00 count column. 1^st pitch is a swinging strike making the count 01. You don’t have to put that in the 01 column because the situation hasn’t changed. 2^nd pitch is a ball making it 11, but since the situation hasn’t changed, no need to mark anything. 3^rd pitch is a strike, but the runner on 1^st takes off. The throw down gets R1 but R3 scores. Now the count is 1-2, but the situation has really changed because there are 2 outs and no runners on.

 Quit using uniform numbers for players. If players change unis from year to year, during the season, or even have to use someone else’s uni for a game, the information for that batter is compromised.

 Find a way to show when there’s been a pitching change. I input 119 pitches for the starting pitcher because I couldn’t tell if or when another pitcher came in.

Why are you marking RBIs on this chart?

What do the “RH” & “LH” in the name column mean?

The attachment lists the results of PAs sorted by BPos.

Sorry Stats,

  I was out of town since Thursday.  Let me try to catch up with what is going on.

I agree with all of your assessments and I have not taken anything personal as you are giving me your advice.  The PScall2.pdf, is what I am really looking for.  Something that will generate percentages.  A lot of the reason for differences is that I had an assistant coach take over the charts after I printed them out.  He is an ex pro ball guy and he kind of made them is own and charted things he wanted to see.  When he took it upon himself to do it, I just had him communicate with me what it all meant so that I had an understanding of what I was looking at.  In a rush to get you what you needed I forgot to communicate it with you.  Also I have other assistants that sometimes I send out and I tell them I merely need pitches thrown.  Depending on what assistant goes is what I ask.  I appreciate your help on this.  How can I replicate this stuff?  Also, I understand what I am looking at when I see the Pcalls1 and Pcalls3.  What type of information can I get from that?  Looking to broaden my horizon on this.

IEBSBL posted: I agree with all of your assessments and I have not taken anything personal as you are giving me your advice. 

 Perfect. It’s a lot more difficult trying to figger out what a user wants and how he wants to see it when you can’t sit down together and brainstorm, so sometimes people take what’s said the wrong way.

 The PScall2.pdf, is what I am really looking for.  Something that will generate percentages. 

 At this point those reports are just me noodling around trying to find ways to present the data in a useful way. You’d be surprised at what some people find useful.

 Take a look at the attachment and notice there are 2 reports.

 You’ll see I added some percentages to PCALLS2, and added another field to use to print out PCALLS1. I added Which At Bat(WAB) which I used to print off the data in sequential PAs rather than by hitters the way they’d be on a normal scoresheet.

 If you look through it, it won’t take you long to see there were some data input errors. It should go from no outs to 1 out to 2 outs and the 1^st no out record after 2 outs should be a leadoff at bat. I’ll admit to fumble fingers on some, but on some of the others I just couldn’t read what was on the page or misinterpreted it. I could fix them all, and would if it were my data. We’ll see how much time I have.

 But this shows what I was talking about earlier. By entering them as they appear on the sheet, it’s really difficult go back and forth trying to see what really happened, and therefore difficult to self-correct prior to putting something in. Since I’ve been using the Project Scoresheet way of keeping score I’ve gotten very used to and comfortable keeping score that way and looking at the scoresheet like that. I’m not trying to get you to change, but like I said, it’s easier to see the game flow for me, and allowed me to very easily see the input mistakes.

 A lot of the reason for differences is that I had an assistant coach take over the charts after I printed them out.  He is an ex pro ball guy and he kind of made them is own and charted things he wanted to see.  When he took it upon himself to do it, I just had him communicate with me what it all meant so that I had an understanding of what I was looking at.  In a rush to get you what you needed I forgot to communicate it with you.  Also I have other assistants that sometimes I send out and I tell them I merely need pitches thrown.  Depending on what assistant goes is what I ask. 

 I had a feeling something like that was happening because it’s not at all unusual. Here’s the best advice I can give on the subject. You are the big moo-moo, so no matter what else anyone does, the 1^st priority is to make sure you get what you want. That other stuff is all good information, and if it’s gonna be used, by all means it’s OK. It just has to be done consistently, and to do that all the little squiggles, lines, circles, etc. have to be defined.

 I get the impression you use the chart not just during your games, but as a scouting tool. Is that correct?

 I appreciate your help on this.  How can I replicate this stuff? 

 Not sure yet. I could just send you the program and files to make it run, but there’s really a lot of bugs in it. I’ve done things like this many times before, and it almost always comes down to me putting in a lot of time and the person I make it for won’t make the effort to learn how to use it. Send me a PM with your email address. I’ll send it along as it is and you can play if you like. No harm, no foul.

 Also, I understand what I am looking at when I see the Pcalls1 and Pcalls3.  What type of information can I get from that?  Looking to broaden my horizon on this.

 Once you get data put into an electronic form, you’d be flabbergasted at what information you can glean from it. What do you want?

I am looking for tendencies.  I mean at the end of the day, the Adults are calling the pitches and they will all fall into tendencies, based off the pitcher on the mound.  The main Tendencies I look for are

Counts:  0-0, 1-1, 2-2, 0-2

Pitches:  0-0 FB for a strike (What's Next?), 0-0 FB for a ball (What's Next)

               0-0 BB for a strike (What's next), 0-0 BB for a ball (What's Next)

Situation: 0-0 (Running in Scoring Position)

These are the big situation we look at as a program.  Now I will never turn down a piece of information that we stumble on but those are this the exact things I really focus on.

IEBSBL posted: I am looking for tendencies.  I mean at the end of the day, the Adults are calling the pitches and they will all fall into tendencies, based off the pitcher on the mound.  The main Tendencies I look for are

Counts:  0-0, 1-1, 2-2, 0-2

Pitches:  0-0 FB for a strike (What's Next?), 0-0 FB for a ball (What's Next)

               0-0 BB for a strike (What's next), 0-0 BB for a ball (What's Next)

Situation: 0-0 (Running in Scoring Position)

 These are the big situation we look at as a program.  Now I will never turn down a piece of information that we stumble on but those are this the exact things I really focus on.

It took a while to get that outta you, but that’s not at all unusual. It’s quite common for someone to know what they want but not be able to define it so someone else understands it. Let me cogitate on that for a few and see what I can come up with.

When you say breaking ball, do you mean anything not a FB or a pitch that actually has horizontal movement? I hate to keep harping on this, but it makes a difference. Unless I hear different, I’m gonna assume there are 2 categories of pitches. FBs and Non-FBs.

Thank you.

It's amazing how much longer it takes do do things when you're not face-2-face. Luckily I'm old, retired, and other than riding my bike every day and dealing with 3 ankle biters, I don't have a lot to do. Plus it helps to really love this stuff!

IEBSBL posted: I am looking for tendencies.  I mean at the end of the day, the Adults are calling the pitches and they will all fall into tendencies, based off the pitcher on the mound.  The main Tendencies I look for are

Counts:  0-0, 1-1, 2-2, 0-2

Pitches:  0-0 FB for a strike (What's Next?), 0-0 FB for a ball (What's Next)

               0-0 BB for a strike (What's next), 0-0 BB for a ball (What's Next)

Situation: 0-0 (Running in Scoring Position)

 These are the big situation we look at as a program.  Now I will never turn down a piece of information that we stumble on but those are this the exact things I really focus on.

It took a while to get that outta you, but that’s not at all unusual either. It’s quite common for someone to know what they want but not be able to define it so someone else understands it. Let me cogitate on that for a few and see what I can come up with.

It took a bit of cogitating, but here's something new. See attached.

That’s the good news. The bad news is, now that we have a better handle on what it is that’s really wanted, some changes need to be made in what’s already been done. FI, I allowed for 10 different pitches, but it turns out all you need is FB and Other. Now having a list to choose from isn’t necessary. It’s either 1 – FB or 2 – Other.

Now I’ll make those changes and see what happens.

Before I forget, what is it you want to know if the situation is 0-0 and a runner(s) in scoring position?

In theory, if you really tracked it properly, wouldnt a program like Game Changer be able to break that down and give you all that data?  Not sure how much you can break it down, but I believe there is a lot of info in there.

FriarFred posted:

In theory, if you really tracked it properly, wouldnt a program like Game Changer be able to break that down and give you all that data?  Not sure how much you can break it down, but I believe there is a lot of info in there.

The data input in Game Changer is only as good as the person inputting the data. And in my experience, without exception, that person isn't good enough for the data to be meaningful. 

FriarFred posted: In theory, if you really tracked it properly, wouldnt a program like Game Changer be able to break that down and give you all that data?  Not sure how much you can break it down, but I believe there is a lot of info in there.

 Yes, some scoring programs CAN certainly provide a lot of information about pitches. The problem is, it’s still data that has to be somehow marked. There are some things that a scoring program can handle without additional input. FI, if a batter hits a HR, an RBI can be generated without the user doing anything. But how does the computer know what a pitch or its location was? It doesn’t, so the user has to do something to get that information into the system. It’s certainly possible for the scorer to do that, but believe me, there are so many things going on, it’s no small feat to add those additional pieces of data, accurately.

adbono posted: The data input in Game Changer is only as good as the person inputting the data. And in my experience, without exception, that person isn't good enough for the data to be meaningful.

 It isn’t that scorers aren’t “good” enough, which implies they don’t have the ability to accurately recognize what the pitch and location was, which is likely true more often than not. There’s often just too much going on for the scorer to be able to concentrate on the pitch type and location without some other part of scoring suffering.

 I never was much of a fan of charting pitch types and locations until technology took over the task. I know a lot of folks honestly believe they can recognize pitch type and locations, but my guess is, the error rate is far too high to count on any resultant data.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Before I forget, what is it you want to know if the situation is 0-0 and a runner(s) in scoring position?

I am looking for what pitch is thrown on a 0-0 count with Runners in scoring position.  Some pitchers will never throw fastball and others will.

IEBSBL posted: I am looking for what pitch is thrown on a 0-0 count with Runners in scoring position.  Some pitchers will never throw fastball and others will.

 I think I know what you mean and will go with it, but I have to ask to be absolutely positive. When you say RISP, I assume you mean any situation where there’s a runner on 2^nd or 3^rd.

 See attached.

We’ve gotten to the point where I’m pretty sure you’ll understand something new, so here goes.

 The 1^st thing I did way try to figger out what you wanted and then come up with a way to get it. What I’ve done is create a table which is made up of rows and columns just like a spreadsheet. I’ll go through it for you now. Many years of playing with baseball data has taught me there are certain things necessary. What I’ve done is defined every column.

 Date – Date format – 01/01/2017

You may well ask, “What’s the need for the date”, and all can only say it has more uses than you’d think. I our case it’s the date the game was played, not the date the data gets entered.

 Gamenum – numeric (1)

This may be unfamiliar to you, but believe me it’s a necessary evil. The way I use it is to give the 1^st game of the day a gamenum of 1, the 2^nd 2, etc.. That way the different games can be broken out.

 Team – character(15)

Pretty simple. This is your team.

 Opp – character(15)

The opponent’s team

 Gametype – numeric(1)

This is the type of game it was. Typically it can be a regular season game, a post season game, or a scrimmage game.

 Pfname – character(15)

Pitcher’s first name the data is for.

 Plname – character(20)

Pitcher’s last name the data is for.

 Bpos – Batting position

 Bfname – character(15)

Batter’s first name the data is for.

 Blname – character(20)

Batter’s last name the data is for.

 Firstatbat – logical

If it’s the 1^st at bat on an inning, this is true. All others are false.

 Count – character(2)

Has to be a numeric character.

 Outs – numeric(1)

Runners – numeric(1)

 Pitch – numeric(1)

 Action – numeric(1)

 Result – character(5)

 WAB – numeric(3)

 That’s the map of 1 record, and there’s a record for every pitch. That likely sounds silly, but bear with me for a while.

 Ask any questions you like. Next I’ll go through adding a record using the form.

Stats4Gnats posted:

IEBSBL posted: I am looking for what pitch is thrown on a 0-0 count with Runners in scoring position.  Some pitchers will never throw fastball and others will.

 I think I know what you mean and will go with it, but I have to ask to be absolutely positive. When you say RISP, I assume you mean any situation where there’s a runner on 2^nd or 3^rd.

 See attached.

Yes that is what I mean.

Stats4Gnats posted:

We’ve gotten to the point where I’m pretty sure you’ll understand something new, so here goes.

 The 1^st thing I did way try to figger out what you wanted and then come up with a way to get it. What I’ve done is create a table which is made up of rows and columns just like a spreadsheet. I’ll go through it for you now. Many years of playing with baseball data has taught me there are certain things necessary. What I’ve done is defined every column.

 Date – Date format – 01/01/2017

You may well ask, “What’s the need for the date”, and all can only say it has more uses than you’d think. I our case it’s the date the game was played, not the date the data gets entered.

 Gamenum – numeric (1)

This may be unfamiliar to you, but believe me it’s a necessary evil. The way I use it is to give the 1^st game of the day a gamenum of 1, the 2^nd 2, etc.. That way the different games can be broken out.

 Team – character(15)

Pretty simple. This is your team.

 Opp – character(15)

The opponent’s team

 Gametype – numeric(1)

This is the type of game it was. Typically it can be a regular season game, a post season game, or a scrimmage game.

 Pfname – character(15)

Pitcher’s first name the data is for.

 Plname – character(20)

Pitcher’s last name the data is for.

 Bpos – Batting position

 Bfname – character(15)

Batter’s first name the data is for.

 Blname – character(20)

Batter’s last name the data is for.

 Firstatbat – logical

If it’s the 1^st at bat on an inning, this is true. All others are false.

 Count – character(2)

Has to be a numeric character.

 Outs – numeric(1)

Runners – numeric(1)

 Pitch – numeric(1)

 Action – numeric(1)

 Result – character(5)

 WAB – numeric(3)

 That’s the map of 1 record, and there’s a record for every pitch. That likely sounds silly, but bear with me for a while.

 Ask any questions you like. Next I’ll go through adding a record using the form.

Sounds good and makes sense.

Just so you know, if you want to you can set up a SS with columns formatted like those so you can enter the data yourself, which is a great segue for the next thing I wanted to explain about data entry. I’ll go through adding a record using the form to try to explain some things.

 Please look at the attachment.

 Pic 1 shows the form just after the “Add” button has been pressed. Notice the date is filled in automatically and that’s the field the cursor’s at which can be told by the background color being grey. When the program starts the user’s asked what date to use, and that becomes the date automatically filled in when a record is added. When I first started doing this stuff I just used the current date. But It wasn’t too long before I noticed just as often as not the data wasn’t getting entered on a different day, and all I was doing was making more work by using the wrong date.

 The next field is gamenum. There’s validity check on this field. The entry has to be 1-9.

 The next field is team. It’s set up to automatically be caps. It also gives us the 1^st real chance for trouble caused by typos. Let’s say your team is ROCKLIN and you want to see all PAs for that team. When the SQL is created to pull all those records it will have a clause that says “where team = ‘ROCKLIN’”. But what happens if “ROCKLN”, EOCKLIN”, or some other typo happened when the user was typing in the name? Nothing except those records won’t be pulled.

 There are ways to deal with this issue, the main one being setting some program parameters with team name being one of them. Then the team name is automatically filled in which means no possibility of a typo. It’s no big deal to set that up, but it makes the system more complicated. Complicated means the learning curve will be longer making it more likely users won’t like it. So for now, let’s just assume everyone will be very careful when they type.

 Something people do is try to make data entry faster, so they might just skip entering a team altogether. What I’ve done is make sure there’s an entry by checking to see something was entered. If there hasn’t been an entry, the message shown in Pic 1 is displayed. It allows the user to continue, but it forces him/her to make that decision before continuing. If yes is chosen the cursor moves to the Opp field, if no is chosen it stays on the team field. The same things happen if there’s no Opp entry.

 Gametype is next. The entry has to be 1 thru 4.

 Then next two fields, pitcher’s first and last name bring an issue similar to the one for team and opponent. I validity check the fields for entries, but not for spelling. A name like Bill Smith isn’t gonna cause a lot of problems, but I don’t have to tell anyone that there are many difficult to spell names, and on top of that there’s a first and last name that can cause problems. Believe me, this is a real issue with data entry.

The way I usually take care of this issue is to have another database for players. It contains all the pertinent information about the player and is controlled by a player ID #. Trouble is, every player has to be in the database. So, to keep things simple, we’re just goin’ with first and last names for both pitchers and hitters and trusting that whoever enters the data check it over after it’s in the system.

 After the pitcher’s name comes the BPos of the batter. This has to be a number less than 11.

 Then it’s the batter’s first and last names.

 The next field is Leadoff. It’s represented by a checkbox. Checked means the data is for leading off an inning.

 Outs is next and must be a 0, 1, or 2.

 The next field is runners. As soon as the field is chosen a popup becomes visible. See pic 3. The field itself is a number from 1 thru 8. The use can click on one of the choices or just enter the number representing the runner situation. This saves keystrokes which saves time and stops typos.

 Which At Bat is next. It has to be a number from 0 thru 99. Personally I use this field a lot, but I’m not forcing its use. Let’s say the #1 batter has 4 PAs and there are 9 in the lineup. The 1^st one would be 1, the 2^nd would be 10, the 3^rd 19, and the 4^th 28. The #2 position would be 2, 11, 20, and 29, and it would go that way all through the lineup.

 Counts next. As soon as it’s chosen, a popup with all the different choices shows up. See Pic 4. I’ve found it’s quicker to just enter the 2 numbers with the keypad than to use the mouse, but to each his own.

 Pitch is next. Originally I had a popup come up with 10 different choices. But since all you’re doing is FB/OS, I’ve cut it back to 1 or 2.

 When Action’s chose another popup show up. Here again the user can use the mouse or just enter a number.

 The last field is Result. This should be used when a PA is over. I used BB, HBP, K, KL, 63, F78, 1B7, etc. It really doesn’t matter, but whatever is used should be used by everyone, otherwise it’s gonna cause problems. FI, if one coach uses 1B7 for a single to left and another uses S7, it’s gonna be hard to put out the hits.

 When the user’s satisfied, s/he hits the Save button, and that’s how you add one record. That will work, but it sure takes a long time to do that over 100 times for a game. After doint that for a while, I streamlined things a bit. If you notice, when the Add button is pressed, among other things that happen is the Reports and Browse buttons disappear and the Snapshot button appears.

 When that button is activated either by the mouse, Alt+T, or F12, the record in the form is added to the data base and the form is set up for the next record. Pic 6 is the form just prior to a snapshot and Pic 7 is just after.

 Notice that most of the form is already filled out. In this case the runner on 1^st stole 2^nd on the 1^st pitch of the PA so the position of the runners has to change. Normally that wouldn’t be true, if it is all that has to happen is to go back to the runners field, change it, then come back to the count field. In this case the count is 10. The pitch is a FB put in play for a sac bunt result. A snapshot is taken and we’re ready for the next pitch. See Pic 8.

 Those 2 pitches were the 1^st PA for BPos #2 on the pic you posted. Now we’re ready to put in the 2^nd PA for that BPos. This time there are 2 outs and a runner on 2^nd. The number of outs has to change so you arrow up and change the outs to 2, and the WAB to 12. The count will already be 00. The pitch is a FB for a ball, so change those fields and you’re done. Take another snapshot.

 That’s enough for now. Gotta have time to soak it up.

In order to get some more data, I entered the data from the pic again. This time it was much easier because now I know a lot more about what’s goin’ on. If you look closely you’ll see some entries have changed. Most of that is because I know more about what’s on the sheet, but some of it’s because I’ve made some corrections to the operation of the form.

 I also switched the 1^st and 3^rd batters so I could check out how the batter’s report would look. Please see the attached.

Been working on getting rid of bugs and putting in things to help eliminate typos. One way to do that is to have pull down lists. There are other ways to do it, but even though some of those ways would be as good or better, they would complicate things too. Here’s what I came up with.

 As soon as the Team field is chosen, a pull-down list control becomes visible. See Pic 1 of attachment.

 At that point the user may type in a name or click on the pull-down arrow to activate the list. A choice may be made from the list to fill the team field and move the cursor to the opponent field. See Pic 2.

 When the cursor moves to the opponent field a pull down list control for that field becomes visible. See Pic 3. The same thing happens for the Pitcher’s name, see Pic 4, and the Batter’s name, see Pic 5.

 As more names are added to any of those fields, the lists will grow automatically. To make it a bit easier to use, the lists are in alphabetical order and can be navigated using the mouse, arrow, keys, or typing a letter. FI, if you wanted to find a batter whose last name was “Head”, typing an “H” would move it to the 1^st H in the list.

 This is all pretty standard stuff and not difficult to use at all. I’m trying to keep it as simple as possible so whomever enters the data only needs to know what the markings on the chart mean.