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Weight Training for Pitchers

J johnj314100+ posts
I would like to get some opinions on weight training for pitchers. My 2013 has been getting some feedback to stop lifting/working on his upper body as he is getting too "bulky". He's a big kid- 6'3" and is probably up to the low 240's since football is over and with some recent hoiday weight gain. Consequently he's bigger everywhere- chest, arms, legs, butt, stomach, neck, etc...I keep telling him that once he gets back in school and loses 20 lbs he'll lose the bulkiness and be fine. But as many of you know 17 year olds know everything...

A little background on his weight training. He's been doing the same routine for last five years- kind of cross training for football, baseball and baketball. Knee injury in 2010 ended basketball career.

Upper body- 2X week
Military- 3 sets 10 w/45 lbs
Flat bench- 3 sets 10 w/185
Inlcine bench- 2 sets 10 w/135
Upright tows- 2 sets 10 w/65
Lat pulldowns (front)- 2 sets w/150

Also does legs 2X week- mainly squats, leg press, calfs, hammy's, plyo's. Recently started doing dead lifts but stopped due to back soreness.

This regimen has served him well as he has never had ANY arm/elbow/shoulder issues with pitching. Been a workhorse pitcher always able to go deep into ballgames. Touched 88-89 several times last summer, documented by PG.

My view is if it's not broke don't fix it and the above routine has worked fine and will continue to work fine. Just lose 20 lbs and that will take care of the bulk...

What are some opinions on this regimen out there? I know that there are a lot of folks who say not to do flat bench with a bar (I hear from some that dumbell bench is OK). Any opinons/suggestions are appreciated in advance. Thanks!
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Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
Recently started doing dead lifts but stopped due to back soreness.


Well he needs to get his form figured out and get back at it. I have never really been a fan of the deadlift myself, but am really starting to see its importance in sports performance...

I think the biggest thing many athletes are forgetting is that their sport requires the use of their WHOLE body. Look at the routine above: It has 2x upper body and 2x legs. When was the last time your son did anything in a baseball game that was "upper body" or "legs?"
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
Recently started doing dead lifts but stopped due to back soreness.


Well he needs to get his form figured out and get back at it. I have never really been a fan of the deadlift myself, but am really starting to see its importance in sports performance...

I think the biggest thing many athletes are forgetting is that their sport requires the use of their WHOLE body. Look at the routine above: It has 2x upper body and 2x legs. When was the last time your son did anything in a baseball game that was "upper body" or "legs?"


Some good points made above.
My son is a professional athlete. He believed that he was doing all that he could to condition properly, but after college issues kept coming up. Last year in rehab he met a trainer who he really liked, and has been working with him since he returned home from fall baseball.

The workout he does is totally unlike anything he has ever done and what he thought was a good one for his position to stay healthy.

Upon testing, he found out that he had weaknesses (that might explain some injuries he's had over teh years), ankles, hips, hamstring, back and needs a stronger core, these are the things that pitchers need to properly execute their delivery properly. Being a worhorse may or may not have anything to do with it. He was shocked, but in reality lot makes sense.

BTW, the bulkier he gets the tighter he gets and could lose his range of motion.

I am bringing this up because your son had a knee injury, not too sure that you understand how important a healthy knee is to a pitcher and how important he needs to make sure that knee can properly support upper body muscle he probably doesn't need. Just using that as an example, some young pitchers think it is all about upper strength, when was the last time you awa a ML pitcher look like the incredible hulk.

So my suggestion would be spend a bit of money and see if yo can get someone to evaluated his weaknesses, and what to focus on rather than getting to look like a body builder which not going to make him a better pitcher.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
Way too much upper body. Baseball starts with the legs so the workout should be leg and core focused.

Personally I would find a trainer who is experienced in this and get him a program. These need to be phased based on time of year also.

I found some old stuff from my son's summer workout. This is only a partial but gives you an idea on the focus area. I think this was a four day workout. Each day had a lift sequence and then a WOD sequence that had more explosive sequence.

Good luck!


Exercise % of 1RM
Front Squat 50
Pause Squat 70
WOD: 4 Rounds 5 Pistols each leg
10 KB Swings @ 45 lb +
15 Box Jumps @ 20-24 in box


Shoulder Press 50
DB Incline Press
WOD: 15-10-5 DB Cleans
DB Push Press
Pushups

Box Squat 75, 80, 85
Stiff Legged Deadlift
Front Lunges
Ab Rollouts


Hang Power Clean
Weighted Pullups
Bent Over Rows
Planks

And get him in a yoga class 3x per week. This will really help increase his flexibility and REALLy give him an idea how unflexible his upper body probably is.
Last edited by BOF
J johnj314100+ posts
Hey Bulldog, thanks and good to hear from you. Adam's ACL is doing well and were just concentrating on baseball from here on out. I guess I should have mentioned that the aforementioned workout is just his weight lifting- twice weekly for upper and twice weekly for lower but he does a lot more. As far as working his "whole body" and the baseball specific stuff he is working on his pitching, hitting and positon play with the STL Pirates at their indoor facility, The Sandlot. Pitching specific workouts/throwing 2X a week, position/hitting 1X week and velo improvement 1X week. Also does ab work, long toss, runs, etc...The legs are worked with weights as much as the upper body and maybe that was another area I didn't make clear. The routine that he has been doing has not, nor will not, ever make him look like a body builder. When he has his weight down at 220 or lower he looks great- toned, thin and looks strong yet loose and flexible. The extra 25lbs he's carrying just kind of blows him up all over and consequently he looks and feels bulky. Acquintanances that haven't seen him for a couple or three months see him and comment how "big" he's getting and his easy excuse is to stop lifting. He comes home and declares "so and so saw me and says I need to stop lifting" and we have been battling over this the last couple of weeks...The answer, to me anyway, is to lose the excess lbs...not change his weight lifting routine that he's been doing for five years and has served him well to date...
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
Dan John is a strength coach and American record holder in some throwing events. He has two rules to training

1) Everything works
2) Everything works... for about 6 weeks.

Doing the same thing for 5 years is just nuts.

And you missed my point. There is VERY little "joint specific" exercise that he needs to be doing. About the only thing I could think of would be the Throwers Ten program for the shoulder and elbow.

Hang Cleans and Deadlifts need to be in the workout. Kettlebell Swings are another great one. Single Leg Split Squats should definitely be included.

Now we won't even start on the whole Pirates organization... He shouldn't be playing baseball at this point!
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
I don't believe that a baseball player should be playing any baseball at this point in the year. Overtraining, fatigue, etc.

And the Pirates over-train a lot. And I continue to watch athletes throw away their high school careers after being promised big things by those coaches and then they end up at small schools where they would have ended up anyway.
J johnj314100+ posts
Bulldog we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Offseason is the time to work hard and improve. My son shut his throwing down for 10 weeks after pitching in the Underclass in Ft. Myers Oct. 7th. Didn't resume throwing until a couple weeks ago and just did throw his first bullpen of about 15 pitches. He did this begrudgingly too as there were many holiday "camps" at schools he's interested in and are interested in him that wanted him to attend. We (Pirates staff and me) felt he needed the break...

As far as the Pirates are concerned they do exactly what they say they are going to do. No more, no less. Not sure what you mean by their kids throwing away their high school careers though. Their off season program runs from mid November through the end of February and then the summer tourney season starts at the end of May and then the fall program begins mid August. The indoor facility, The Sandlot, is available to them year round to work on their own...They draw a lot of kids from southern IL (I'm sure you know of many) and have had several high profile playerr come from the IL side like Odorizzi, Depew, Schlect, etc...Are their a lot of their kids that don't go D1 or get drafted, sure, but the Pirates will develop players as well or better than any similiar program...
lefthookdadlefthookdad5,000+ posts
As to the original question..if your worried about too much bulkk, cut the weight down and add more reps...and lose the squats and stick with the leg presses. Don't count out adding a good band/rope stretching routine as well.

My 2014 has been shut down for about a month, we will be start our pool training 6 am sharp tomorrow morning
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
I don't believe that a baseball player should be playing any baseball at this point in the year. Overtraining, fatigue, etc.

And the Pirates over-train a lot. And I continue to watch athletes throw away their high school careers after being promised big things by those coaches and then they end up at small schools where they would have ended up anyway.


I agree your son may be over training.

I get a kick out of how so many people come here for advice and when t's not what they want to hear, they get upset. YOU asked about his routine, you wanted an opinion, you got it.

May I ask, why are young pitchers throwing bullpens this time of year? When does the season begin?
J johnj314100+ posts
TPM- I just didn't agree with Bulldog's comments on overtrainig, fatigue and especially on the Pirates. I wasn't upset and never would get upset for any advice that I asked for on here. You ask and you take the good with the bad.

Bulldog's comments had nothing to do with what I asked for opinions on..I asked for opinions on my son's bulkiness and his upper body weight training. And I got some great information...But I didn't agree with Bulldog's off topic comments and commented accordingly.

To answer your question about when the season starts in Missouri the high school season starts with try outs March 1st and games a few weeks later. And why are young pitchers throwing bullpens this time of year? Well, again as I replied to Bulldog the off season is, I think anyway, when most serious ballplayers and pitchers work to improve. For a pitcher throwing bullpens is just part of what you do to improve and it starts about this time of year.

Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
Well, again as I replied to Bulldog the off season is, I think anyway, when most serious ballplayers and pitchers work to improve.


Or get injured. Read some of Mike Reinold, Dr. Andrews, and Eric Cressey. They are all against throwing year-round.. They are also some of the biggest names in sports performance and rehabilitation of BASEBALL INJURIES.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by johnj314:

This regimen has served him well as he has never had ANY arm/elbow/shoulder issues with pitching.


That's not true, you might want to revisit a topic you began last fall entitled "regaining lost velocity".

I think that Bulldog brings up some very good points related to the topic, pitching is a complicated act, preparation should be uncomplicated based upon recommendations from those that have done studies and research in the field and make a living from that, not travel team coaches that want their team to win. Your son is headed towards the most important spring, summer and fall, he should be doing what is appropriate. You seem to have concerns and you should, by the time fall comes around he may be toast. JMO.

Since you are a huge Cards fan, you might want to see if you can get in touch with Brent Strom, visit his website, he is the pitching coordinator for the farm system, you might find out that a professional pitcher whose season begins in March, wouldn't be throwing from a mound this time of year (bullpens). So why I ask, would a 16-17 year old HS pitcher?

Common sense should prevail.

BTW, you might want to share this info with Elroy.
Last edited by TPM
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Weight training for pitchers tends to be a very individual thing. A general guideline is to focus more on lower body than upper body. Personally, I prefer the Trevor Bauer approach where he does little if any actual lifting but that isn't the right approach for everyone. There are a lot of pitchers that benefit from leg strength and there tends to be a correlation between weight and velocity so bulk can help some pitchers also. That doesn't mean that the pitchers with a Trevor Bauer or Tim Lincecum type build are necessarily going to gain velocity if they bulk up. In their cases it is almost certainly going to hurt at this stage in their careers. As they get older and lose some of their flexibility and ability to move explosively then bulk may help partially offset the velocity loss due to age. An example, ignoring the possible contribution of steroids, would be Roger Clemens. He didn't need the bulk to provide velocity early on but as he aged and lost flexibility bulking up helped him maintain most of his velocity.

In this particular case given that he's already a big kid I'm not certain that losing 20 lbs is going to help or hurt. He is probably adding some risk to his shoulder with some of the lifts he is doing but once again that tends to vary with the individual. There are people out there who can do those lifts and not cause themselves any problems.
Last edited by CADad
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Good post CADad.
I agree that training for pitchers tends to be individual, so does throwing programs, and as all players mature so do their routine.

However, I get the impression that there is a concern more about the excess weight the player has added on for his age rather than anything else. If this is the case, I agree, there needs to be more conditioning that involves using more calories as well as watching caloric (good vs bad) intake. Weight training and throwing earlier from the mound than needed will not solve that issue.

As a parent there is only so much one can control, if your son wants to play college baseball, his physical appearance might or might not affect recruiting. However, all is not lost, there are many very good players that begin their college career either a bit too thin or a bit too heavy but by the time their first fall ends, the trainer has pretty much taken care of that. Wink

Wasn't Strassburg out of shape when he started at college? Point being, really good college coaches look beyond what they see in the HS player at 16, 17.

If one has the skills, all the other stuff doesn't matter.

JMO.
S Skylark100+ posts
I do know that too much weight training can be a bad thing or of not that much importance to the basic mechanics and abilities of pitchers. I have watched my son and one of his team-mates grow up together. They have always pitched and always threw with the relatively same velocity. My son doesn't work out with anything more than simple weights (light dumbelss, etc) and not that often either. But, he does run a lot and do repetitive things such as throwing consistantly etc. His team mate on the other hand plays football, works out a lot with very heavy weights, doesn't run as much nor throw the baseball as frequently. Setting the mechanics beside, I am of the very strong opinion that none of that heavy workouts with weights have contributed to how well his team-mate can throw nor how fast he can throw. As of last year, my son surpassed his team-mate in throwing ability and velocity and I know it had nothing to do with working out with heavy weights.

I am not sure exactly how the muscles in the body work and mature in rapidly growing teenagers but it appears to me for the most part that working with weights, especially frequently with heavier (weight gaining method)weights, for the most part has very little to perhaps no effect on how hard or well they can throw a baseball.
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
I do know that too much weight training can be a bad thing or of not that much importance to the basic mechanics and abilities of pitchers.


quote:
I am of the very strong opinion that none of that heavy workouts with weights have contributed to how well his team-mate can throw nor how fast he can throw



So do you know this or do you think this?
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
All I will say is that when my son was home for the Christmas break this year - we were talking about what he would have done differently in HS based on what he has learned after his first semester in college.

He said that he would have got into the weight room as a freshman and worked out much more aggressively all of the way through HS. Granted some of his physical gains this fall were purely because of maturity, but his physical presence is significantly improved because of the strength and conditioning program he is using.

I know I am taking this thread down a rat hole but I don’t necessarily buy that college coaches are all that good at projecting. I personally think they are a bit of sheep like in their recruiting. They see a physical specimen who is performing and they tend to all go that way. (I know there are some very good ones who project, but they are in a minority) JMO.
H HAWKEYE5013110+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
Well, again as I replied to Bulldog the off season is, I think anyway, when most serious ballplayers and pitchers work to improve.


Or get injured. Read some of Mike Reinold, Dr. Andrews, and Eric Cressey. They are all against throwing year-round.. They are also some of the biggest names in sports performance and rehabilitation of BASEBALL INJURIES.
+1,very good info from these three!
Last edited by HAWKEYE50131
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
I do know that too much weight training can be a bad thing or of not that much importance to the basic mechanics and abilities of pitchers.


quote:
I am of the very strong opinion that none of that heavy workouts with weights have contributed to how well his team-mate can throw nor how fast he can throw

So do you know this or do you think this?

I will just say that I have never seen where heavy weight lifting has contributed to a "pitchers" ability to throw or improve his velocity. I have seen plenty of HS kids, college players and pro players and all I can say is that if it were true that heavy weight lifting improved a pitchers ability, every good pitcher we saw would be built like Arnold! In fact. most of the good pitchers I see look like they have never weight trained much in their life. I am not saying working out is bad, just in how you do it and in what way you apply it. In son's team-mate case, his bulking up of the arms and upper body and all over in general has not benefitted his pitching where you need less mass in the arm and more range of motion. whereas it has on his hitting.
BOFBOF10,000+ posts
You know not what you speak of Skylark! We are not talking about a body building routine. To compare a professional scripted program to some stupid unknowlegable HS kid who hits the weightroom is silly.

Squats, Deadlifts, Cleans should all be part of a pitchers lifting routine. It should be a phased program with part of it heavy to build lower body mass and strength, then a power phase and then an explosive phase.

The most explosive and fastest athletes in the world lift heavy, (sprinters) why should it be any different for a pitcher?

There is a thought that you can work exclusively explosive (Wolforth...Bauer) but even they work some pretty heavy weights.
Last edited by BOF
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
You know not what you speak of Skylark! We are not talking about a body building routine. To compare a professional scripted program to some stupid unknowlegable HS kid who hits the weightroom is silly.


BOF,
I guess a leopard never changes it's spots, neither does a name change! Roll Eyes
Last edited by TPM
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:

There is a thought that you can work exclusively explosive (Wolforth...Bauer) but even they work some pretty heavy weights.


I think this is lost in translation to many onlookers of their program. The exercises performed involve resistance...a lot of resistance. Just because he isn't completing traditional weight lifting programs doesn't mean he isn't using weighted resistance- quite often a lot of it.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BOF:
You know not what you speak of Skylark! We are not talking about a body building routine. To compare a professional scripted program to some stupid unknowlegable HS kid who hits the weightroom is silly.

Squats, Deadlifts, Cleans should all be part of a pitchers lifting routine. It should be a phased program with part of it heavy to build lower body mass and strength, then a power phase and then an explosive phase.

The most explosive and fastest athletes in the world lift heavy, (sprinters) why should it be any different for a pitcher?

There is a thought that you can work exclusively explosive (Wolforth...Bauer) but even they work some pretty heavy weights.


Perhaps you missed the point I was trying to make. I said that I doubted that heavy weight lifting would benefit a pitcher and his needs. There are other workout programs that will condition a pitcher that better suits what he is trying to achieve.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
Skylark- What alternative programs would you suggest in order to make a pitcher stronger and better condition him to maximize his capabilities?


There are many programs out there and we are all aware of them. We all know the detremental outcome of using a body-builders workout program with that of a sprinter's.

All my point was is that just lifting heavy weights will, in my opinion, not contribute specifically to the overall betterment of what a pitcher needs to throw better and harder. There are different kinds of muscles that one builds depending upon the workout program one is on. A baseball slugger is thus going to train differently than an opening day starter on the bump- a catchers workout is going to be different than an outfielder's. That's all I am saying.

In my sons case in comparing him to his team-mate's, it is clearly obvious that bulking up to be a stronger football player doesn't also translate into also becoming a pitcher who is able to throw harder. His friend can outbench him 2:1, outsquat him 2:1, etc. Now whereas he can be better on the defensive line in football than son, this doesn't directly translate into him being a better pitcher also.

Personally I think the best workout programs for a pitcher may include anything as long as it doesn't include lifting heavy amounts of weight too frequently. It's not about muscle mass for a pitcher but rather the right kind of properly conditioned muscle fibre- quality and kind versus quantity here.
Last edited by Skylark
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
A baseball slugger is thus going to train differently than an opening day starter on the bump- a catchers workout is going to be different than an outfielder's. That's all I am saying.


Agreed.

quote:
It's not about muscle mass for a pitcher but rather the right kind of properly conditioned muscle fibre- quality and kind versus quantity here.


Agreed as well.

quote:
There are many programs out there and we are all aware of them.


For those of us who may not know, I think it'd be beneficial to the boards to provide an example of what you may feel would be beneficial. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking for an explanation.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
quote:
A baseball slugger is thus going to train differently than an opening day starter on the bump- a catchers workout is going to be different than an outfielder's. That's all I am saying.


Agreed.

quote:
It's not about muscle mass for a pitcher but rather the right kind of properly conditioned muscle fibre- quality and kind versus quantity here.


Agreed as well.

quote:
There are many programs out there and we are all aware of them.


For those of us who may not know, I think it'd be beneficial to the boards to provide an example of what you may feel would be beneficial. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking for an explanation.


Fair enough.

I think a good workout program for a pitcher would be a good jog to get warmed up, then move to stretching- good stretches lasting 20 minutes or so. Then some band work and medicine ball workout. Finish with some sprints and more stretching at the end followed up by a glass of chocalte milk.

On alternate days instead of the medicine ball and bands, the pitcher will throw quite a bit after his warm-ups and stretches really working on getting consistancy in the arm slot and release point. Follow that throwing with a medium distance jog and again another glass of chocolate milk.

Two days aweek can be spent in the gym working light dumbells in more quicker style of explosive workouts along with light bench pressing, etc. Also to be implemented are sit-ups, various push-ups, pull-ups, etc. Staying away from high protein diets and watching calorie intake to minimize weight gain when working with weights in the gym.

This type of workout to me would best be suited for a pitcher who wants to gain core strength yet maintain flexability. I would have nothing against a pitcher who wants to bulk up his lower half to some extent but keep away from too much upper body mass which causes too much strain for fast twitch muscle fiberes to fire correctly and efficiently.

A lot of a pitchers ability will come in conditioning and stamina training the fast muscle fibers to be more efficient and able to recuperate quickly.
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
then move to stretching- good stretches lasting 20 minutes or so.


Research is finding stretching to be all but useless at this time. In fact, some is even going as far as saying that stretching decreases performance in power activities.

quote:
sit-ups


Sit-ups: useless for the abs, great for developing bad backs!


I've said it before and I'll say it again. Go read Eric Cressey's stuff. Mike Reinold is another excellent choice. And a new one to add: Mike Boyle. Mike Boyle has long been known as a great strength and conditioning coach associated with a lot of professional and college athletes especially hockey players. It has been reported (but not yet confirmed) that Boyle has been hired by the Boston Red Sox as a consultant for strength and conditioning.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
then move to stretching- good stretches lasting 20 minutes or so.


Research is finding stretching to be all but useless at this time. In fact, some is even going as far as saying that stretching decreases performance in power activities.

quote:
sit-ups


Sit-ups: useless for the abs, great for developing bad backs!


I've said it before and I'll say it again. Go read Eric Cressey's stuff. Mike Reinold is another excellent choice. And a new one to add: Mike Boyle. Mike Boyle has long been known as a great strength and conditioning coach associated with a lot of professional and college athletes especially hockey players. It has been reported (but not yet confirmed) that Boyle has been hired by the Boston Red Sox as a consultant for strength and conditioning.


I am caertainly aware that as many pitching coaches exist, there must also be as many individual philosophies as to what a good program would consist of. Some will say that eggs aren't good for you and other will say they are. Mostly...just a matter of preference and opinion.
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