Weight Training for Pitchers

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Originally posted by BOF:

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GBM,
Grab yourself some chocolate milk and do some homework.

You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

So GBM do you think the top college pitching programs are doing what you posted?

You can bring a horse to water but you can't raise his IQ.

If you are actually gonna tell me what in your opinion is faulty with what I am saying please do so and stop with all the lame jargon.

Look I am not against this or that workout program. I was only saying the negatives about working out frequently with heavey weights. If you guys wanna debate that then lets debate because I am not debating all the micro issues of what this or that trainer does.

Here we go again.

Citing strength and conditioning specialists and their research is what validates a debate. There is no such thing as a micro issue, especially when pertaining to some of the forefront authorities in strength and conditioning for baseball.

In my experience, weight training with heavy resistance combined with flexibility and small tissue exercises are what most coaches preach to be successful for pitchers. Eric Cressey's articles and blog are wonderful resources that are utilized by many, many top minds in baseball.

There are certainly many negatives that could stem from heavy lifting if not completed properly or not completed in association with many other baseball specific movements. However negating weight training completely would be incredibly detrimental to a pitcher's progression in the long run.

Herman Demmink is another bright young mind on the topic, and one that I've had direct experience with. We've had him on the HSBBWeb Radio Show here and he has many resources available for public use. He is currently the S&C Coordinator for University of Tennessee.

J H,

Sufficeth to say- we are on the same page. If you look back at my previous posts I am stating what I beleive to not be helpful to a baseball pitcher. And what is that- "too much heavy lifting with weights and too often". Specifically- weight training like a linebacker is not going to be the best workout program for a baseball pitcher. We both agree with that and I never said I was against working out with weights, just frequently doing so coupled with "heavy" weights.

Looks like we both agree, let's move on brother.

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Originally posted by Skylark:

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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I do know that too much weight training can be a bad thing or of not that much importance to the basic mechanics and abilities of pitchers.

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I am of the very strong opinion that none of that heavy workouts with weights have contributed to how well his team-mate can throw nor how fast he can throw

So do you know this or do you think this?

I will just say that I have never seen where heavy weight lifting has contributed to a "pitchers" ability to throw or improve his velocity. I have seen plenty of HS kids, college players and pro players and all I can say is that if it were true that heavy weight lifting improved a pitchers ability, every good pitcher we saw would be built like Arnold! In fact. most of the good pitchers I see look like they have never weight trained much in their life. I am not saying working out is bad, just in how you do it and in what way you apply it. In son's team-mate case, his bulking up of the arms and upper body and all over in general has not benefitted his pitching where you need less mass in the arm and more range of motion. whereas it has on his hitting.

GBM,
The reason why you are getting feedback is because of the above statement you made.

Pitchers spend lots of time in the gym working on strength conditioning, the reason they don't look like Arnold is because their programs are not designed to make them look like Arnold. We know that you know that the reason for strength/resistance training is not only to add velocity and keep the shoulder/elbow healthy but to avoid any type of injury. This is a discussion that we had with Demmink, why it is so important for college athletes to spend so much time in the gym, to avoid injury, very simple concept.

Something very interesting is that many pitchers from HS up, don't necessarily get placed on the DL because of shoulder or elbow injuries, but backs, hips, knees, hamstring, lat/quad issues, etc. When Bulldog mentions that it is about the total body he is 100% correct.

As I am sure was mentioned to you, if you want to be part of a community, let's see what advice you have to give to those who reach out for help. What advice do you have to give the OP, which shouldn't involve what your son does of does not do. Do you feel that his throwing bullpens at this time of year 2 plus months away from his season will help keep him healthy, help him lose the excess weight and prevent him from having the recurring elbow issues he has posted about (in another topic a while back). Would like to know on what you would suggest.

If you are unable to give advice to help the OP, then why did you post?

the queen has spoken but what has happened to pros and cons in a debate---cannot have a debate without two sides of opinions

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Originally posted by TRhit:
the queen has spoken but what has happened to pros and cons in a debate---cannot have a debate without two sides of opinions

The OP came asking for advice, which was given based upon people that actually are here to help others, not a debate until the king of debates showed up in another outfit.

Do you have anything to offer besides your ramblings that take up bandwidth?

If you posted what you did above to get my attention, you did, my suggestion might be is to try to offer some good solid advice, based on today's methods of training pitchers, not what they did over 10 years ago.

JMO.

I am pretty sure TPM just wants to start an argument. As anyone can see, all of my posts were in reply to the OP. My first post was my opinion about "bulking up" in direct response to the OP. I am not sure what TPM is arguing about? Personally I think she just wants to argue with me and anything I say. I am not going to address TPM directly as I am trying hard to ignore her at this point to avoid any further conflict. I am more interested in posting on the subject than having some petty argument with her.

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Originally posted by Skylark:
I am pretty sure TPM just wants to start an argument. As anyone can see, all of my posts were in reply to the OP. My first post was my opinion about "bulking up" in direct response to the OP. I am not sure what TPM is arguing about? Personally I think she just wants to argue with me and anything I say. I am not going to address TPM directly as I am trying hard to ignore her at this point to avoid any further conflict. I am more interested in posting on the subject than having some petty argument with her.

Not sure where you got that idea, I was just wondering what your advice would be to give to the OP about his son's dilemma without including anything about your son (can you do that).

For instance, what do you suggest would help this player, who obviously needs to trim down, and not achieving that with his present weight training routine, which is light to begin with. No cardio?

.....

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Originally posted by Skylark:
.....

I guess you don't know how to help.

To get back to the OP's question, those exercises are not baseball specific whatsoever. I'd suggest reading up on Reinold/Cressey as Bulldog suggested. Here's a clip of Demmink as well, to give a glimpse of more sport specific things: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmBt0ini9io

I also don't believe that the weights you listed are adequate enough for any type of muscular progression. As a college pitcher I can tell you that we don't perform most of those exercises, but I do know that those weights are not very difficult weights to work with and obtain success with. It's odd to me that a young man completing the same program for five years has not progressed beyond that point. Then again, "everything works for about six weeks".

I'd suggest incorporating cardiovascular training as well. No better way to lose weight than do cardio.

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Then again, "everything works for about six weeks".

Alright Dan John

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I'd suggest incorporating cardiovascular training as well. No better way to lose weight than do cardio.

High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) is the best way to lose weight. Simple cardio exercise such as running or getting on the elliptical, etc is considered "steady-state cardio" and really will not get you great results. Getting that heart rate going up and down is the best way to do it..

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) is the best way to lose weight. Simple cardio exercise such as running or getting on the elliptical, etc is considered "steady-state cardio" and really will not get you great results. Getting that heart rate going up and down is the best way to do it..

I see distance running and steady-state cardio similar to static stretching...very little, if any, benefit whatsoever.

I know it's rather taboo in some baseball circles but I'd suggest researching the workout program "Insanity", produced by Beachbody and featuring the fitness professional named Shaun T. It is not really too beneficial for sport-specific exercise, but I think some of the training methods used and incorporated within the program are ideal for optimal cardio training for baseball. If some sort of hybrid between some of these exercises and other sport-specific exercises can be created, I believe results would increase tenfold.

Insanity is very insane, might be too much for young players.

As I told JH, as a recommendation from the guy he is working with, DK joined kick boxing, not sure if any of you know how that works but it can be an intense 30 minute cardio workout depending on how intense you make it. Always finding other cardio workouts boring, he really enjoys this.

TPM- I assumed as a 2013, the OP's son is at least 16. At 6'3" 240 with prior athletic experience, perhaps the program could be fitting. I've done it in the past and currently do a bit of a hybrid similar to what I described. As a person who has had quite a fluctuation in weight in the past (I've been both too skinny and too fat a few times in my life), I think something like this could be very beneficial for someone that is looking to drop some pounds and remain strong.

Nonetheless, there are many alternative cardio workouts that hit on the HIIT principles Bulldog mentioned. Running around a track for a half hour gets awful boring to me too...

You are right, I have 2014 branded in my brain.

I do agree though a player can modify any workout to fit his needs. It's about being motivated and wanting it more than the next guy.

JH:
You have a PM

Well after reading this thread for a while I really think I need to provide a very unique perspective. There exists a community in exercise science that is not very well known and sometimes misunderstood. I believe their principles will eventually become the exercise of the future. This community is known as Super Slow exercise, using protocols found in the book "Body By Science." Dr. Doug McGuff helped write the book and is one of the pioneers in this style of exercise science. It is a workout done once a week using several basic compound lifts. Reps are controlled and momentum is eliminated. Mostly machines(RenX,MedX, Nautilus) are used, but many other forms of resistance can be accommodated. Although I will not say anyone is wrong on this board because that isn't the right thing to do. I will say most of what many people perform as exercise are examples of a fad or phase. Have you ever noticed how people change programs monthly, always moving on to something new. Really good marketing promotes these types of programs and makes many pockets rich.The incredibly high forces many of these programs put on the joints and body are extremely unnecessary and are in a lot of ways the real cause of many injuries. Many need to understand what is really in their best interest.

I have done many of the other forms of exercise and workouts. Now that I have been on BBS/SS for 1.5+ years I noticed drastic differences compared to conventional exercise. There is something very truthful about it that I haven't found anywhere else.
But try it for yourself or at least read about it, you shouldn't trust me just based on what I type.

I am a big researcher on this subject and I offer this reply from the bottom of my heart(seriously).

I know that I might not have covered everything, so feel free to PM me with questions.

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Originally posted by TheUnDiscovered:
Well after reading this thread for a while I really think I need to provide a very unique perspective. There exists a community in exercise science that is not very well known and sometimes misunderstood. I believe their principles will eventually become the exercise of the future. This community is known as Super Slow exercise, using protocols found in the book "Body By Science." Dr. Doug McGuff helped write the book and is one of the pioneers in this style of exercise science. It is a workout done once a week using several basic compound lifts. Reps are controlled and momentum is eliminated. Mostly machines(RenX,MedX, Nautilus) are used, but many other forms of resistance can be accommodated. Although I will not say anyone is wrong on this board because that isn't the right thing to do. I will say most of what many people perform as exercise are examples of a fad or phase. Have you ever noticed how people change programs monthly, always moving on to something new. Really good marketing promotes these types of programs and makes many pockets rich.The incredibly high forces many of these programs put on the joints and body are extremely unnecessary and are in a lot of ways the real cause of many injuries. Many need to understand what is really in their best interest.

I have done many of the other forms of exercise and workouts. Now that I have been on BBS/SS for 1.5+ years I noticed drastic differences compared to conventional exercise. There is something very truthful about it that I haven't found anywhere else.
But try it for yourself or at least read about it, you shouldn't trust me just based on what I type.

I am a big researcher on this subject and I offer this reply from the bottom of my heart(seriously).

I know that I might not have covered everything, so feel free to PM me with questions.

Hmmm; "Super slow exercise?" "Once a week, compound lifts and momentum is eliminated."

I haven't commented thus far because this certainly is not an area I know a lot about. But as a life long "Martial Arts practioner" and self professed exercise nut; doesn't your system defy the basic "law of exercise specificity?"

Compound movements are good and replicate movements in sports. But baseball movements occur at a pretty good clip so curious how once a week SLOW stuff will help? Guess I will need to research this one cuz it sounds like the "magic pill quick fix" everyone is always looking for???

I am going to make my final post on this subject, for the only reason to make sure a parent/player coming along and reading this gets it.

1. Modern conditioning programs for pitchers do have a heavy weight component to them and yes they are done frequently. They are nothing like what Skylark has posted. Nor are they as he posted “I never said I was against working out with weights, just frequently doing so coupled with "heavy" weights” Make no mistake about this - they include heavy weights.

2. JH (who is a seasoned college pitcher) has highlighted his experience, which is consistent with the program my son (freshmen college pitcher) has been on since the summer. (and a number of his college friends that I have talked to) It is exactly as JH has pointed out. “In my experience, weight training with heavy resistance combined with flexibility and small tissue exercises are what most coaches preach to be successful for pitchers”.

3. It is my experience that most college strength and conditioning programs are phased over a year period. They have a strength phase where heavy weights are used to build body mass. (muscle) This mass development is primarily in the lower body and core, but also includes the full kinetic chain and including back, shoulders, arms, forearms, etc. They then transition into a power phase where the emphasis is a combination of weight and speed. In their final phase prior to the season they phase over to mostly speed and add in a cardiovascular component -that is in the form of intense interval training. The “in season” component is a maintenance phase where there is some lifting done to preserve the gains made during the off-season.

4. Mixed in with this conditioning is a constant attention to stretching for maintenance of range of motion and injury prevention. Some programs have stretching routines, and many are now having their pitchers do Yoga and Pilates.

5. Finally (at least in my son’s case) there is a whole throwing specific component that develops the arm action and fast twitch muscles associated with throwing, including strengthening all of the decelerator muscles for injury prevention.

The point I am trying to make with all of this is based on the conversations I had with him over the Christmas break. When I asked him “now that you have been inside a college program and seen it what would you do different if you could go back to high school, he said “I would start an aggressive strength and conditioning program as a freshmen and keep at it all of the way through high school”.

I am quite happy where he is at, and I am not sure if it would, or would not, made any difference, but after seeing him in December there is no question that had he been in the shape he is in now last fall it would have made a significant difference in his recruiting opportunities.

College baseball athletes are big, fast, strong, powerful creatures, the sooner a high school player recognizes this and gets after it the better off he will be.

This too shall be my last post on the subject just so that people do not misunderstand my points and have the best advantage on how to train as "pitchers".

I am firmly against frequently working with heavy weights in the upper body with pitchers. Pitchers do not need a lot of upper body mass and in fact- that upper mass will often be counter-productive if weight is not controlled. The best pitchers in the game are not "built" in the upper body and indeed look different than other types of baseball players such as a designated hitter who would have a lot of upper body mass.


It may be a matter of opinion but from what I have noticed, pitchers do not need to spend a lot of time in the weight room working with heavy weights in their upper body.

College baseball "pitchers" may be both big and small. Most are tall but not all. How hard you throw coupled with control and command will be what determines or separates the good players from the not so good players. I have seen tall and super skinny pitchers who are good pitchers and I have seen short pudgy good pitchers. And, I have seen everything inbetween. How "athletic" a pitchers upper body mass looks in college is only a side note and if they can't throw hard it's not even a side-note- it's no taking notice of that pitcher at all.

There is this school of thought that one needs to bulk up as an athlete to get noticed and to play at a higher level. I am OK with that just as long as one realizes that for a pitcher, it's about the "quality" of the muscle and not the "quantity" so much. To me, a pitchers upper body mass should be in proportion to the size of his frame, bone structure, etc. All of that can be achieved to a pitchers best benefit without the use of frequent heavy weight.

BTW, Some of the strongest professional pitchers such as Clemens who was known to work-out a lot never worked with weights over 40 lbs in the upper body.

This too shall be my final post on the subject.

Trust those that have experience on the subject, Skylark has never been on the inside of a college training room as well as ML training room. He has a player in HS. I would tend to lean towards advice from those that have had sons play at higher levels, present and former players and trainers or physical therapists.

Remember one thing, training and conditioning should be done under the supervision of an experienced adult.

Being short or tall has nothing to do with it, preventing future injury does.

It's a very good idea for HS pitchers to become familiar with routines, those that go on college visits may ask the strength trainers for specific info, they are more than happy to share.

This may or may not be my final post on the subject. BOF is certainly correct in his assessment of the weight programs that most colleges use for their players and pitchers. I would however caution against starting too soon for some players. Many times a 14yo or 15yo HS freshman is not developed enough to safely jump into a rigorous lifting program. Their lower backs can be at risk more than anything else. Some can, some can't. Everybody is different.

I don't have any proof one way or the other, but I find it very hard to believe that Clemens never did any upper body lifts with more than 40lbs given his build toward the end of his career. Juice or no juice.

I've read about the "Clemens workout" which says he didn't use over 40lb dumbells, but there's also this from a witness:

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I also found it strange that, at 38, Clemens had the energy of a teenager. Clemens' workouts lasted 10 hours a day with only breaks for lunch and dinner. They began at 9 a.m. under McNamee's watchful eyes, with light weight-lifting for an hour, then an hour run, then a trip into Clemens' own personal gym, where he did a few hours of calisthenics, wind sprints, and throwing before going to lunch. After lunch, Clemens and McNamee went to an exclusive Houston men's gym (Clemens told me that President Bush worked out there), where Clemens pedaled a stationary bike for an hour and then performed a heavy weight-lifting routine for another hour. Then after dinner at home, Clemens worked out again until 9 or 10 in the evening.

Note the part about heavy weight lifting. Not proof by any means but I'm guessing it included some serious benching, etc.

Without the heavy lifting that's a prescription for looking like Bruce Lee, not like Roger Clemens.

This is my first and probably my last post on this thread

I have a son who's in his second year of a top notch college baseball program and from what my son has told me it's very much as BOF has outlined.

And I will emphasize there is some "heavy weight" conditioning for pitchers (mainly before and during the fall)where it's not the kind of heavy weight conditioning where one is trying to build bulk. But it's to build strength to help prevent injuries. I'd say some bulk is naturally added, but not nearly as much as implied by Skylark. Also, as TPM has just said, being short or tall has nothing to do with it. . .or even having a genetically thin or heavy build. The conditioning, which includes heavy weights, is individually customized to maximize performance AND prevent injury. The heavy weight conditioning is NOT about "bulking up", for as Skylark points out, to do so would reduce a pitcher's performance. . .as it would for any athlete that needs to maximize quickness/speed and flexibility.

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BTW, Some of the strongest professional pitchers such as Clemens who was known to work-out a lot never worked with weights over 40 lbs in the upper body.

Frankly, I don't think citing Clemens as a paragon of athletic strength advances your argument.

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I am firmly against frequently working with heavy weights in the upper body with pitchers. Pitchers do not need a lot of upper body mass and in fact- that upper mass will often be counter-productive if weight is not controlled. The best pitchers in the game are not "built" in the upper body and indeed look different than other types of baseball players such as a designated hitter who would have a lot of upper body mass.

Must be why Cressey's guys do push-ups and pull-ups with seriously heavy chains draped over their backs and around their necks.

Posterior shoulder strength is unbelievably important when throwing.

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Originally posted by Kyle B:

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I am firmly against frequently working with heavy weights in the upper body with pitchers. Pitchers do not need a lot of upper body mass and in fact- that upper mass will often be counter-productive if weight is not controlled. The best pitchers in the game are not "built" in the upper body and indeed look different than other types of baseball players such as a designated hitter who would have a lot of upper body mass.

Must be why Cressey's guys do push-ups and pull-ups with seriously heavy chains draped over their backs and around their necks.

Posterior shoulder strength is unbelievably important when throwing.

In all fairness, the above quote is coming from a parent of a HS player, his opinion will change when son heads off to college.

It's quite funny how people make a mountain out of a mole hill. My point originally was that it was "my opinion" that pitchers shouldn't train like linebackers.

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Originally posted by Skylark:
It's quite funny how people make a mountain out of a mole hill. My point originally was that it was "my opinion" that pitchers shouldn't train like linebackers.

Ironic that so many people didn't quite get what you meant.

When was the last time that you saw a college or professional pitcher that looked like a linebacker?

The object here is that some do use heavy weights, but done properly under a person who knows what he is doing they will never look like Hulk.

Might be a good time for you to investigate, so that you can learn how to help young pitchers to achieve success without injury.

Has a lot more involved than chocolate milk.

this not opinion but fact----my son played in the BIGWEST--he was an oufielder--yhe pitchers on the team did not enter the weight room ---ever

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Originally posted by TPM:

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Originally posted by Skylark:
It's quite funny how people make a mountain out of a mole hill. My point originally was that it was "my opinion" that pitchers shouldn't train like linebackers.

Ironic that so many people didn't quite get what you meant.

When was the last time that you saw a college or professional pitcher that looked like a linebacker?

The object here is that some do use heavy weights, but done properly under a person who knows what he is doing they will never look like Hulk.

Might be a good time for you to investigate, so that you can learn how to help young pitchers to achieve success without injury.

Has a lot more involved than chocolate milk.

Not quite sure of what you speak of but...It is my opinion that pitchers do not need, nor should, work out with heavy weights in the upper body on a frequent basis. If people can't understand that then they need to get out in the real world of baseball and out from underneath their rocks they been living under.

Success without injury? That's called conditioning and a pitcher does not get that from doing 4 reps of 10 @350 pounds on the bench press every other day!

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this not opinion but fact----my son played in the BIGWEST--he was an oufielder--yhe pitchers on the team did not enter the weight room ---ever

Strength and Conditioning has changed. Heck, 13 years ago my high school's weight room consisted of a single bench and single squat rack located in a shed that was seldom used. Now it is a 5600 square foot facility that puts most high school weight room and some colleges to shame.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
this not opinion but fact----my son played in the BIGWEST--he was an oufielder--yhe pitchers on the team did not enter the weight room ---ever

It probably was a facty that many years ago.

What do you recommend for your pitchers, what type of training program, upper and lower body?

You need to get out and visit a college (any division including JUCO) weight training room, you might even find the girls soft ball pitchers in there!

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Originally posted by Skylark:
Success without injury? That's called conditioning and a pitcher does not get that from doing 4 reps of 10 @350 pounds on the bench press every other day!

Where in this topic did anyone mention 350 pounds? I mean, come on you are being ridiculous. The problem is that you have no clue what might be beneficial and age appropriate.

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Originally posted by Skylark:

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Originally posted by TPM:

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Originally posted by Skylark:
Success without injury? That's called conditioning and a pitcher does not get that from doing 4 reps of 10 @350 pounds on the bench press every other day!

Where in this topic did anyone mention 350 pounds? I mean, come on you are being ridiculous. The problem is that you have no clue what might be beneficial and age appropriate.

Whatever, after all, its know-it-all speaking

Actually, unlike others, I never stated what a good strength/conditioninprogram for pitchers would entail.
I also never stated that I worked with pitchers, coached or managed a team, or profited from the business of baseball, yet people who say they do, can't come up with what they have their pitchers work on to remain healthy. Just throwing, running and chocolate milk just doesn;t work for players trying to play beyond HS.

It also should not be one size fits all, I would imagine that the player that needs to gain weight be on a certain program while the player that needs to lose (as in the beginning post pointed out). I believe that CADad addressed that.

Now I am not saying that your advice is all that off base (for a pre HS player), but as the pitcher gets closer to his most important years (junior/senior) he should be physically preparing to be able to compete with those on a national level, unless he has a FB well over 90 with another plus pitch he might not need to work as hard as the others.

JMO.

---TPM

unlike others I offer no advice on facets Iam not well versed in-- that is why I have a coaching staff and do not foget that I have been termed oldschool

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Originally posted by TRhit:
---TPM

unlike others I offer no advice on facets Iam not well versed in-- that is why I have a coaching staff and do not foget that I have been termed oldschool

Old school does not mean that you do not stop learning new ways to help players to remain healthy.

If you do not have advice to give, then what was the purpose of the statement that when your son went to school pitchers never entered the weight room? Just a statement as to what they did over a decade ago? Do you feel in your opinion that was a meaningful and necessary statement that added anything to this discussion?

How many of those pitchers went onto play the game after college? How many pitchers did/didn't have injuries, can you sipply that information?

Again, my opinion (and according to you opinions are ok), if you work with players (besides your own), no matter what level, in any capacity, you better be educated as to what is needed to do beyond the field to remain healthy.

tpm my purpose in that was relating from my experience what a college coach did---it was a fact not an opinion or hearsay

did you read that I HAVE A COCHING STAFF WHICH INCLUDES PITCHING COACHES?

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did you read that I HAVE A COCHING STAFF WHICH INCLUDES PITCHING COACHES?

I did read it. Most of them don't know the first thing about the body though!