At what age do you start weighted ball training like driveline?
Who has a good long toss program?
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I don't know
Jaeger
I would wait until post puberty.
Jaeger.
My 12 year old is following Driveline's HTKC youth edition and uses Jaeger bands
3and2Fastball posted:I don't know
Jaeger
Son started Jaeger style long toss at 11. Still does it at 15. I think it has increased his arm strength. He threw it 300 ft. about two months ago.
But unless I had twins and used one as a control, how would I know?
Nathan posted:At what age do you start weighted ball training like driveline?
Who has a good long toss program?
My son didn't start one until he was shaving a couple times a month. For him that was 14, and he only did it over the winter. Have you been to drivelines site and received the free workouts? They have a youth version as well as an older version.
S never did weighted balls or bands.
He did Jeager (actually throwing from under one goal post through the far goal post) (beginning in ninth grade through 11th), but dropped that after learning what happened to the overwhelming majority of players who provided testimonials attesting to the Jaeger method.
He built up arm strength by throwing essentially every day from the time he was seven (as he got muscles, in late HS, he did take a month or two off; in college he took off a couple of months in fall; later, he took off October and November).
Goosegg posted:He did Jaeger (actually throwing from under one goal post through the far goal post) (beginning in ninth grade through 11th), but dropped that after learning what happened to the overwhelming majority of players who provided testimonials attesting to the Jaeger method.
Can you please elaborate on that?
The first 6 pitchers on Jaeger's testimonial page (Kershaw, Zito, Hamels, Montgomery, Garza, Bauer) have never had Tommy John, I believe, and Kershaw, Zito, Garza & Hamels have been among the most durable pitchers in their generation.
I'll get back when I have more time, but off the top of my head Skaggs, giolito, schlereth, Bailey, all had TJ.
No research from my end on correlation and causation.
S loved the way his arm felt (and I'm a believer of "if it feels good, it's good"). But one of the college guys where he throws did a research paper (now a data guy for a team) which noted that the number of tjs present on the list was large.
With no way to drill deeper into causation, into who was really a jaeger zealot (my S was) on that list (as opposed to a quick hitter), on who had a damaged arm before entering the program, etc., he felt (through conversations with his PC (cause I had nothing to say), that he could get what he needed without the need to throw so far (though it was a nice circus act).
Like everything also involved in arm strength and picking up velo, research is sparse, correlation and causation issues are iffy, and anecdotal evidence is really what remains.
Im not for or against any method; and those selling the fairy dust (and we were buyers of various types) all speak well of their methods. It's all a crap shoot.
I guess my point was, there is no true single path to reaching potential. Looking backwards, it was a lot of trial and error; and a healthy dose of luck.
Thanks very much GOOSEGG I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate. Good food for thought.
I generally don't start on a weighted ball program until I feel a player is post-pubescent (or at least pretty well done). I have never started a kid before 14 and have several pitchers that I wouldn't start at 14.
roothog66 posted:I generally don't start on a weighted ball program until I feel a player is post-pubescent (or at least pretty well done). I have never started a kid before 14 and have several pitchers that I wouldn't start at 14.
I think your post proves a point that it's very important to have someone know what they are doing.
roothog66 posted:I generally don't start on a weighted ball program until I feel a player is post-pubescent (or at least pretty well done). I have never started a kid before 14 and have several pitchers that I wouldn't start at 14.
I think your post proves a point that it's very important to have someone know what they are doing.
Goosegg posted:
<SNIP> He built up arm strength by throwing essentially every day from the time he was seven <SNIP>
I think this is the key. IMHO, many kids pitch too much and don't throw enough.
We have some experience with this. In short, Roothog said it well.
Son started before he was ready (though he was around 14, good size and athletic). It led to 2 years of shoulder issues.
Some advice we received later was:
-- no one-size-fits-all answer on this (when to start) that works for every athlete, bodies can be very different
-- risks of weighted ball program appear to outweigh risks of proper long toss program (no science or study that proves this, just anectodal experience from a couple of people with lots of experience at the right levels).
-- weighted balls are not advised for everyone anyway. IF max out benefits of regular throwing and long toss, and IF post-puberty, and most importantly IF lower body and core (the base) are properly developed and ready to go, THEN a properly supervised weighted ball program may make some sense. But monitor very closely.
-- the opposite, starting too young, lower body and core not properly developed yet, not using proper form with someone who knows what they are doing -- is a recipe for injury and setback. Been there ...
Nathan posted:At what age do you start weighted ball training like driveline?
Who has a good long toss program?
Assume your asking from a pitching standpoint?
Son is about to turn 16. No weighted balls yet
Bands, bands & more bands with his own toss (or long) theory.
His thing that has worked so far:
Day 1 - pitch / run (2 poles for every inning pitched)
2 - run the same again / rest arm
3 - bands / toss / long toss
4 - bands / toss / bullpen
5 - pitch / repeat
Son hasn't had an issue following this yet... knock on wood please!
I know bands are big for injury prevention for the shoulders/scap etc., but does any pitcher's routines include rice bucket work or any other forearm strengthening work? It just seems to me that the forearm muscles help protect the UCL.
Edit: Oh, weighted balls. Son is soon to be 16. No thanks to weighted balls anytime soon.
Players need to develop a base of arm strength with velocity and carry before going into long toss and weighted balls. It takes years of throwing every day (warming up, playing catch, some near max effort throws) during the season to get there.
My son and his current college are big proponents of weighted ball training.
Some of these guys have had arm issues some have not My opinion that in the proper program there are lots of benefits My son would not go without them as part of his daily training now He has added about 5 mph in first year
For reference this graphic spans 3 pitching coaches Only constant is HC's belief that they work
Brandon in the photo was a recruited SS and as they joke he hit his way to the mound
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Started my son with heavier/lighter balls at age 17 last year. Very conservative program, and built up slowly. Son already good and strong in most places, but especially core, scaps, and cuff. I would monitor closely, and always ask if he were having any pain/discomfort during or after.
We used 6,7,8,9,10,11 and 12 ounce balls for "arm strength increases", and 3 and 4 ounce balls for "arm velocity increases", in a program I found online. We purchased the actual stitched balls that are the same as a true baseball. I did not like the feel of the "gel" based balls. Again, very conservative. A good warm-up prior to.
We saw tremendous improvements in not only velocity, but throwing technique in general. I am a huge proponent of heavy/light ball work now. We do the program one time per week in season, and did it 2-3x/week in the off season. The in-season work seems to keep his arm loose and improves his mechanics.
I would not consider it at any younger age, and would not do it if the base strength is not present and if good mechanics are not already present. Every body is different, but this has helped my son a great deal.