What causes a team to fade (the Rangers)

As a fan, I will have to go with a loss of heart. Last year when they got to 2 outs, 2 strikes & still couldn't pull it off, you knew they weren't going to, no matter how many chances they had. This season began with enthusiasm & support, continued with hope and dreams as we reached the All Star Break and were still ahead. Last week, as the seemingly insurmountable lead began to shrink, they began to look sad. I don't mean their playing, I mean their expressions outside the game. When Hamilton dropped the fly, you knew it was over.

Sad for us, but so excited to see the O's take on NY.

Something caused Josh to lose faith or enthusiasm, and that's when everyone else did. It's not clear yet whether it was personal, contract, drugs, or a combination, but it'll start coming out in the next few weeks.

Several of the others were capable of being the clubhouse inspirational leader, including Wash, Young, Beltre, hell even Nolan. But Josh had the helm because of his big personality, and so the others were experienced Pro's enough to support it. Then whatever happened, happened and it was too late to recover.

When things start going south, there is a lot of finger pointing.

It's someones job to keep the troups in line, and perhaps the leadership just wasn't there.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
When things start going south, there is a lot of finger pointing.

Yep.

quote:

...perhaps the leadership just wasn't there.

That's usually the easiest and most credible finger to point. But when you've got an organization full of proven leaders, its also kind of a superficial diagnosis.

Probably more instructive to look a little deeper in this case...

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Originally posted by wraggArm:
Probably more instructive to look a little deeper in this case...

That's baseball. And it's especially hard when the expectations are that much greater for one team.

The year the Astros made it to the WS the big boys took care of business, and different role players stepped up in different games. Throughout the season there was consistent leadership and a positive clubhouse.

I think it is just baseball when you are in a late season run for the pennant and fall short. This was not that situation. Hats off to the As for keeping the faith when they were down 5 games with 9 left to play.

Maybe it's hard to maintain a high level of intensity for three straight years. Also consider the Rangers ran into a team on a roll (A's) the last week of the season and a young team on a mission (O's). As for one game, any team can win one game. The wild card is no longer a position to shoot for.

Consistency (isn't there a thread on this on HSBBWeb currently?).

Major League teams go up and down during the course of 162 games. Texas was caught on a down movement and couldn't adjust despite their talent. I picked them to go to the World Series because I really thought they were the team to beat. I've come to the conclusion that Josh Hamilton only performs when I'm not watching him. EVERY time I watch him he does nothing, yet he is a stat monster. So, my conclusion is that it is my fault because I was watching Josh. Seriously, I've never seen the man get a clutch hit.

Fenway, I LOLed at that one.

A's played better! One game in first place was on game 162.

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
So, my conclusion is that it is my fault because I was watching Josh. Seriously, I've never seen the man get a clutch hit.

Well, thanks for nothin', then. I can't believe this...Why did you have to watch our game when you knew you had bad Josh Mojo?

Seems like the big money star teams don't always have the make up necessary to win clutch, or important games. CHEMISTRY with talent, win championships and at least to date 1/2 of that can't be bought.

I think the A's have it, the Cardinals have sought out character along with the talent [Berkman,Beltran] and factor in how important this is making up a team.


IE. I don't see Hamilton as a Cardinal ever.

The other reason is once you've been paid mega millions why do you want to work an extra month? Some just don't have the desire once the moneys meet.

Winning is more complicated than just Money and Chemistry. Certainly, there must be talent, and leadership.

The talent can diminish, with Injury or trade. Chemistry can change with personnel or with Leadership that doesn't build or nurture enthusiasm, excitement, effort and so forth. Leadership can become disenchanted.

Difficult to point to just one, look at Boston's demise. Was it really Francona's fault, players, leadership (ownership), chemistry??? Probably all the factors shared responsibility.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:

The other reason is once you've been paid mega millions why do you want to work an extra month? Some just don't have the desire once the moneys meet.

So when does that change? Our boys play now because they love the game. It's 42 degrees outside and our youngest is in a tournament and wouldn't trade it for any offer a friend could make. Our oldest eats, sleeps & breathes it. He would play forever even if no one ever paid him.

When does it become about the money and fame & not love of the game? As adults, we all wish we could have careers that we love, some of us are lucky enough to have them. I want my boys to be ball players, for the love of it not just guys who play ball for a living. When they stop loving it, I want them to find another dream, I don't ever want them doing something just for money.

I'm not sure how a team builds a roster of players who have a love of the game, but the team that does will have a lock on the title.

quote:

Originally posted by CanyonsMom:

quote:

Originally posted by showme:

The other reason is once you've been paid mega millions why do you want to work an extra month? Some just don't have the desire once the moneys meet.

So when does that change? Our boys play now because they love the game. It's 42 degrees outside and our youngest is in a tournament and wouldn't trade it for any offer a friend could make. Our oldest eats, sleeps & breathes it. He would play forever even if no one ever paid him.

When does it become about the money and fame & not love of the game? As adults, we all wish we could have careers that we love, some of us are lucky enough to have them. I want my boys to be ball players, for the love of it not just guys who play ball for a living. When they stop loving it, I want them to find another dream, I don't ever want them doing something just for money.

I'm not sure how a team builds a roster of players who have a love of the game, but the team that does will have a lock on the title.

In your case I'd say never. :] But I've heard money doesn't change folks, it just shows who they are.

quote:

Originally posted by CanyonsMom:

quote:

Originally posted by showme:

The other reason is once you've been paid mega millions why do you want to work an extra month? Some just don't have the desire once the moneys meet.

So when does that change? Our boys play now because they love the game. It's 42 degrees outside and our youngest is in a tournament and wouldn't trade it for any offer a friend could make. Our oldest eats, sleeps & breathes it. He would play forever even if no one ever paid him.

When does it become about the money and fame & not love of the game? As adults, we all wish we could have careers that we love, some of us are lucky enough to have them. I want my boys to be ball players, for the love of it not just guys who play ball for a living. When they stop loving it, I want them to find another dream, I don't ever want them doing something just for money.

I'm not sure how a team builds a roster of players who have a love of the game, but the team that does will have a lock on the title.

I don't necessarily agree with showme's statement. But a good example might be Hanley Ramirez.

Canyonsmom,
Reality is that when you get paid to play it now is your job, just like you and me, there are things that often affect how we perform each and everyday.

These guys have families just like us and I would imagine that they come to work with issues as well. I will go out on a limb and say there most likely are guys that don't enjoy the game as much as we think they should and should not be playing because they lost their passion but have a certain lifestyle to maintain and not sure what else to do with their lives. Most guys know when to walk away.

You will always find the young minimum wage MLB earners much more enthusiastic and eager, because how they perform affects their first real contract and eventually free agency. Its easy to see why young teams do well.

Teams cannot maintain the status quo continuously, the best time to get hot is not out of the gate, but during a certain time frame where the momentum can get you into the playoffs, as in the 2011 and 2012 cardinals, and this years A's, Detroit.
I don't follow the Rangers, but for a few teams that I do follow, I have seen the managers rest the older players so that they can be available come post season. Maybe the manager needs to adjust, not the players?
My opinion is that the season is just too long, and I think in the case of the Rangers that is what happened, they just ran out of time and momentum.

The theories about high payroll players and no love of the game might be fine, but they don't apply to the Rangers and this situation. Hamilton is a fairly low payroll guy and now a free agent.

The Rangers before these last 3 years had not been to the playoffs in ages. Then 3 LONG, stressful seasons in a row with the same team core. Last season's WS loss was crushing and most never expected them to do as well as they did this year. Rather than underperform, in reality they over performed all year until the end when pitching, defense and hitting especially all hit a dryspell at once. Then the weight of last year crashed upon them and they had no time to recover. If you want to talk about a team that underperformed, talk about the Angels. They had the best team money can buy.

As for Hamilton, I think he's gone from the Rangers. I don't think the Rangers want him next year with the baggage he brings and pay he'll demand. I predict the surprise of the offseason will be how few are interested in Hamilton and what a "bargan" price he settles for...and it won't be with Texas. I believe he started to figure that out late in the season and pressed because of it. Didn't perform because he was pressing and turned sour on the front office for not showing him the love he thought he earned (and the front office turned sour on him before the fans did). I like him...wish him well professionally and personally...but he's no longer worth the price.

I agree with you TX-Husker. I think it ultimatly became impossible to perform under the immense pressure as their lead was shrinking. For each and everyone of the players on that team anything less than a WS ring was going to be viewed as a huge failure and truly a lost season.

After watching Hamilton play all year and not missing many games I think his stats are very misleading at times.

Chasing those stats he gave away a lot of ABs this year. Lots of times he simply went up with the approach that he was trying to drop a bomb on each and every pitch and would flail miserably and sit down after swinging at three pitches no where near the strike zone. It happened so often and for such long periods of time as a fan it became really hard not to question how much he really cared. His 4 ABs against the Orioles in the Wild Card game where a microcosm of a large part of the season. I too thin the demand for his services will be smaller than what most would think. He was exposed at times and for long stretches. Much of his production came in a very small window.

Contrast that with Beltre who grinds out AB after AB. That is the player to me that is most valuable hitter on this team.

My theory on the Rangers is that they hit critical "Cubs" mass when they acquired Dempster and Soto.

(As a Cubs fan, I was sorry to see Dempster go.)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BackstopDad32:
I agree with you TX-Husker. I think it ultimatly became impossible to perform under the immense pressure as their lead was shrinking. For each and everyone of the players on that team anything less than a WS ring was going to be viewed as a huge failure and truly a lost season.
[QUOTE]

That might be true, but everyone knows that this is a game where anyone can win or lose and n one is safe.
Perhaps management needs to look itself in the mirror and figure out what went wrong, this isn't all on the players.
Something isn't working.

quote:

Something isn't working.

Hold on there. That's not true at all. Something didn't work at the end of year...by the end of November that will be something every team but 1 says. But you make it sound like the front office and/or team management is failing and continues to fail. What they have done over the last 4 years is nothing short of remarkable. They would be the first to tell you, I'm sure, that another step needs to be taken. But let's be clear, over the last 3 years together the Rangers have been one of the best, most consistent team in baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by twotex:
What a phenomenal meltdown. I'm interested in what this baseball community thinks causes teams to underperform. It could be specific to the Rangers, or based on other teams you've seen.

Some possible explanations:

Lack off heart or desire
Lack of leadership
Poor manager


I'm sure this group can think of others.

twotex, very, very interesting topic.
Personally, I think the reasons can be very different if we contrast college and MLB.
As an illustration, what happened with Stanford last June in Tallahassee, in my view, can be very, very different from the example in your post, the Rangers.
At the MLB level, with 162 games, I truly believe there are things like momentum. The Kirk Gibson HR and how that propelled the Dodgers is an example. However, it is negated, to an extent by the WS in 2001 and the manner in which the Yankees won in NYC but couldn't carry that over in Az.
While I could imagine there are some aspects of both leadership and heart, in professional baseball I personally have come to believe it is more preparation, both physical and mental, combined with "injury."
We tend to think a player is 100% because he is playing and that is not accurate, many times. Playing just means a doctor cleared someone to play, it says nothing about the level at which they might compete against 100% healthy.
But what I think is the most critical is the mental and physical preparation to get ready to play by each player. Earlier this year, I listened to a Ron Washington interview and he was asked about Josh Hamilton. What he talked about was preparation, with the message that if Hamilton learns how to mentally prepare himself to compete at the highest level, for every game, his production would be far better than it is even now.
For the Rangers, I believe the last few years show Ron Washington to be a fine, fine manager with a equally solid coaching staff.
Within the context of the last 3 weeks of the season, it could involve injury to some extent, but we won't know.
At the center, I would guess would be the preparation, or lack of it, which must occur before and after each game. The "lack" of the required preparation combined to "dull," for some players, the proper mental focus on getting the job done on each AB, each pitch, each situation and each game, and some tried to make up by doing to much...and couldn't.

Teams, and people, fall victim to momentum if they don't have inner strength and convictions.

And, with either adequate or insufficient preparation at times of stress some let pressing overtake what their preparation tells them them should do. Good teams/players learn from that and get better.

quote:

Originally posted by Tx-Husker:

quote:

Something isn't working.

Hold on there. That's not true at all. Something didn't work at the end of year...by the end of November that will be something every team but 1 says. But you make it sound like the front office and/or team management is failing and continues to fail. What they have done over the last 4 years is nothing short of remarkable. They would be the first to tell you, I'm sure, that another step needs to be taken. But let's be clear, over the last 3 years together the Rangers have been one of the best, most consistent team in baseball.

If the thought is conveyed that not getting a WS ring means failure, then something isn't working. That is what I meant. They aren't the only team that has that pressure placed on them to win the big prize.

Interesting is that very often teams that should win because they spend huge amounts on their payroll with mega talent, etc, don't. This also doesn't make for good chemistry.

The Rangers wore out, both mentally and physically. As early as June you could see their inability to score with RISP. The offensive numbers were misleading as they were skewed by the 10 run games with 15-20 hits. The team became dependent on the home run, much like the playoff Rangers of the 90's. You no longer saw the ability to move base runners with productive outs. The defense began making errors in critical situations.

July's schedule against sub .500 teams gave them a big boost but the troubles returned when they began playing contenders again.

I love Ron Washington's style of baseball as everyone has seen the previous years. But I think it is questionable if he will be retained as he is stubborn in his ways and has not really learned from previous mistakes.

The previous years the Rangers had a large lead where he rested the players more often. But this year with the Angels and A's staying on their heels, he rode the starters too hard. Olt and Profar were brought up to help spell the starters but Wash refused to use them, as he doesn't trust young position players. Kinsler was hitting .200 on the road but stayed at the leadoff and was not given time off unless injured. Hamilton continued to go to bat without recognizing or refusing to acknowledge that he would never get a first pitch near the strike zone. Yet, he flailed away, often striking out swinging when all pitches were out of the zone. By the end of the season you could see that some of the players had tuned their manager out.

Wash also rides the hot pitchers in the bullpen, wearing out the arms of Robbie Ross, Mike Adams, Ogando, and Nathan. They had nothing left by the end of the season.

Nolan Ryan and Jon Daniels will not interfere in how Washington uses the players on the roster during the season. Nolan was interviewed after the final game and made it clear he was unhappy with the season and said that you could see that the poor play had gone on for a while.

I think they have to decide if Wash will make changes and have to figure out if the players will still play his brand of baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by LadsDad:
Hamilton continued to go to bat without recognizing or refusing to acknowledge that he would never get a first pitch near the strike zone. Yet, he flailed away, often striking out swinging when all pitches were out of the zone.

You're absolutely right about this - it was driving me insane. It seems like everbody around Josh is so busy making sure he never falls off the wagon that nobody has time to watch any game film. Or maybe no one wants to be honest with him ???

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:

quote:

Originally posted by LadsDad:
Hamilton continued to go to bat without recognizing or refusing to acknowledge that he would never get a first pitch near the strike zone. Yet, he flailed away, often striking out swinging when all pitches were out of the zone.

You're absolutely right about this - it was driving me insane. It seems like everbody around Josh is so busy making sure he never falls off the wagon that nobody has time to watch any game film. Or maybe no one wants to be honest with him ???

Not true at all. Ranger coaches have been telling him about that all season. Early on he listened and had a lot of success. As the season went on, patience, preparation and good pitch selection disappeared. Hamilton became uncoachable. This was 100% on Josh. The better question is why did Josh check out?

The point about resting players is a good one. After two long seasons with essentially the same core players, I believe the Rangers had 7 guys that started 145 or more games. I'm sure Washington will learn from that.

In the season ending press conference today, the question presented to Washington was "What could you have done differently?". Answer "Maybe I played them into the ground".

Tx,
I have followed Washington for a long time, dating back several years when he was in Oakland. Year after year after year he developed players to be MLB players and most all of them gave him full credit and he would take none. When something went sideways, he would take full responsibility, though.
When I read your post and quote attributed to Washington, my first thought was he is taking the responsibility to take it off his players. Of course I could be wrong so I read a couple of the news accounts of the conference and thought these comments from the GM to be intriguing:
"What was especially cool about Washington's honesty was that it dragged the entire show off-script. Later, Daniels came to his manager's defense, and in the process had to get specific about his own short-comings.

"There's not a guy who's more honest, more accountable, more open [than Washington], and I think that's why players respect him," Daniels said. "I appreciate him saying that maybe the reason [they lost] was the players were out of gas, but there were a lot of reasons."

Among those reasons, Daniels said: They often didn't have a good enough fifth starter to run out there, which theoretically could have handcuffed Wash into over-playing his best hitters. (Remember, Daniels pointed out: One more regular-season win and the Rangers are still playing.)

"Wash preaches accountability," Daniels said, "so he's taking accountability. But it's not on him. It's on all of us. But especially Hamilton."

Boy, that last comment seems to send up a red flag.
Professional baseball is all about being accountable for preparation and focus, for the player. Coaches make the information, resources and time available. The player must do the preparation. The signals from Dallas seem to suggest one player may not have but Washington wouldn't go there.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Tx,
I have followed Washington for a long time, dating back several years when he was in Oakland. Year after year after year he developed players to be MLB players and most all of them gave him full credit and he would take none. When something went sideways, he would take full responsibility, though.
When I read your post and quote attributed to Washington, my first thought was he is taking the responsibility to take it off his players. Of course I could be wrong so I read a couple of the news accounts of the conference and thought these comments from the GM to be intriguing:
"What was especially cool about Washington's honesty was that it dragged the entire show off-script. Later, Daniels came to his manager's defense, and in the process had to get specific about his own short-comings.

"There's not a guy who's more honest, more accountable, more open [than Washington], and I think that's why players respect him," Daniels said. "I appreciate him saying that maybe the reason [they lost] was the players were out of gas, but there were a lot of reasons."

Among those reasons, Daniels said: They often didn't have a good enough fifth starter to run out there, which theoretically could have handcuffed Wash into over-playing his best hitters. (Remember, Daniels pointed out: One more regular-season win and the Rangers are still playing.)

"Wash preaches accountability," Daniels said, "so he's taking accountability. But it's not on him. It's on all of us. But especially Hamilton."

Boy, that last comment seems to send up a red flag.
Professional baseball is all about being accountable for preparation and focus, for the player. Coaches make the information, resources and time available. The player must do the preparation. The signals from Dallas seem to suggest one player may not have but Washington wouldn't go there.

Great observations. From afar, Ron Washington seems like a great coach and his record bears that out. No one mentioned his name, but Josh Hamilton seemed distracted this year even though he almost won the homerun title.

quote:

When I read your post and quote attributed to Washington, my first thought was he is taking the responsibility to take it off his players.

I listened to the whole press conference. I think he was taking the pressure off the players too. I never heard the remark you said Daniels made about "especially Hamilton". The reporters asked a bunch of softball questions to allow Washington, Daniels and Ryan to take shots at Hamilton. I never heard one take a shot at him. There were also chances for them to say we love him, we want him back, etc. I never hear Daniels or Ryan say that. Hamilton's gone.

BTW, I expect Washington is being honest about playing time, games and innings playing a role in what happened over the last 3 weeks. I would expect he felt tremendous pressure to win this year, following the endings of 2010 and 2011, and the 2012 expectations for the Rangers.
Compared with the manner in which managers like Bochy and Dusty Baker handle the process over 162 games, one can expect experience plays a role as does having those guys from 9-12 on the bench who perform when the opportunities arise.
In 2010, Barry Zito got left off the post-season roster and Tim Lincecum was the guy and a major reason the Giants were a WS champion.
This year Zito gets a start in game 4(hopefully!!!) and Lincecum is in the bullpen.
Managers of the teams at the top like Bochy and Washington make tough decisions. When they work, boy are they smart. When they don't, boy they don't know anything about baseball.

I remember reading an article a while back about why LaRussa changed his batting order on a daily basis (besides the match ups) and had many players come off the bench, frequently. He stated that you have to learn to manage the season so you can get through the post season and considering how many post seasons he has done, it must be right.
True you have to be able to get there to be in it, but I see no issue with letting your reserves come up during the season so they will have the experience for post season. And give others time off, same with september call ups, use those guys.

As a Cardinal fan living in Dallas, I have a different perspective. In St. Louis and most baseball cities, fans tend to be realistic about their teams' chances -- and not crushed when things don't work out. We soldier on. Here ... given the Rangers' recent track record and the community's insane desire to win it all, the pressure on Wash and the team was extreme. They had to deal with a fan base, and more importantly, a local sports media, that seem unable to be honest about their teams (witness Cowboys). While it's true the Rangers were great, they weren't invincible; but on some level, I think they thought they were. So ... Wash made some decisions that someone like LaRussa wouldn't have made. I think LaRussa would've benched Hamilton for a couple days.

If I had to say what went wrong, it was that SOME on the Rangers' team and on the coaching staff were unable to accept the possibility that they COULD lose, in part because it was reinforced daily in the media. That's always dangerous.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by CanyonsMom:

quote:

Originally posted by showme:

The other reason is once you've been paid mega millions why do you want to work an extra month? Some just don't have the desire once the moneys meet.

So when does that change? Our boys play now because they love the game. It's 42 degrees outside and our youngest is in a tournament and wouldn't trade it for any offer a friend could make. Our oldest eats, sleeps & breathes it. He would play forever even if no one ever paid him.

When does it become about the money and fame & not love of the game? As adults, we all wish we could have careers that we love, some of us are lucky enough to have them. I want my boys to be ball players, for the love of it not just guys who play ball for a living. When they stop loving it, I want them to find another dream, I don't ever want them doing something just for money.

I'm not sure how a team builds a roster of players who have a love of the game, but the team that does will have a lock on the title.

I don't necessarily agree with showme's statement. But a good example might be Hanley Ramirez.

Canyonsmom,
Reality is that when you get paid to play it now is your job, just like you and me, there are things that often affect how we perform each and everyday.

These guys have families just like us and I would imagine that they come to work with issues as well. I will go out on a limb and say there most likely are guys that don't enjoy the game as much as we think they should and should not be playing because they lost their passion but have a certain lifestyle to maintain and not sure what else to do with their lives. Most guys know when to walk away.

You will always find the young minimum wage MLB earners much more enthusiastic and eager, because how they perform affects their first real contract and eventually free agency. Its easy to see why young teams do well.

Teams cannot maintain the status quo continuously, the best time to get hot is not out of the gate, but during a certain time frame where the momentum can get you into the playoffs, as in the 2011 and 2012 cardinals, and this years A's, Detroit.
I don't follow the Rangers, but for a few teams that I do follow, I have seen the managers rest the older players so that they can be available come post season. Maybe the manager needs to adjust, not the players?
My opinion is that the season is just too long, and I think in the case of the Rangers that is what happened, they just ran out of time and momentum.

I agree with TPM...

Could simply be the Rangers got cold at the wrong time

A lot on this thread about Josh Hamilton. The guy has struggles and I am a fan of his for the way he battles his demons.

What about the other 8 guys on the field...they are all major league players and have the ability and therefore the accountability to step up and take their turn as team hero.

If Rangers management gave up on him, they should have traded him before the deadline and infused some fresh blood into the team and given him the chance to recharge too. I appreciated they way he took responsibility for his error vs the A's...no excuses, just I didn't break down and I needed to.

Chemistry....that's my theory here. Look at the A's, they don't have a lot of anything except chemistry and potential that different guys live up to on different nights. Not a lot of consistency, just a lot of contributors which has led to a crazy fun season they are embracing. Chemistry.

quote:

If Rangers management gave up on him, they should have traded him before the deadline

Rangers didn't lose faith in him before the deadline. I think Hamilton's 0-4 and only seeing 8 pitches in those 4 ABs of an elimination game confirm the loss of faith was valid. Hamilton changed his all out approach to the game after his 4 HR game. He started playing for his contract and to remain healthy...put himself over the team, which was very unlike him. That destroyed the chemistry the Rangers have had over the past 3-4 seasons.