What Causes Arm Injuries

quote:

Originally posted by luvbb:
Per Dr. Andrews:
"There are four risk factors with youth baseball. Number one is year-round baseball: that happens, of course, not only in the sunshine states, but all over the U.S. The second is overuse, for example, playing in more than one league at the same time. The third is the radar gun, where these young kids are trying to throw 92 miles per hour when they’re 13 years of age. The fourth risk factor is the showcases, where they go out and try to throw hard, to show off for a college coach or perhaps a pro-scout, and they’re not in shape to throw."

Don't forget tournaments.

In some cases, if not many, you have pitchers throwing multiple innings in multiple games in a weekend. This greatly increases the risk that pitchers will throw while fatigued and without adequate time for their bodies to recover from the stresses of pitching.

The pros wait 5 days between starts. Why shouldn't kids get at least as much rest, if not more.

This is one reason why my teams don't travel and don't play in tournaments. Too much risk for too little reward.

quote:

thepainguy quote:
This is one reason why my teams don't travel and don't play in tournaments. Too much risk for too little reward.

But don't you think that if you carry enough pitchers that you would be providing those kids an experience they will not soon forget. Maybe in your part of the world tourneys are a dime a dozen, but for many players it is an honor and special privilage to go and play different teams in a tournament environment. Besides tournaments providing potential exposure, part of select ball coaching is providing players the opportunity to experience opportunities.

I would tend to think that injuries are accumulative, showing up in the late HS years, college or pro ball.
I guess my radar theory was way OFF BASE?
I don't think so.

luvbb,
I NEVER anywhere implied that your son's injury was due to being an overzealos parent. I said they exist because I have seen it over and over and stated IMO. I am entitled to my opinion.

And as far as your remark regarding the possibility of my son being unfortunate someday to suffer a major arm injury that was really unnecessay.
But I will tell you, if it ever happened I will look back and think about whether we did or didn't do the right things to prevent injury and try to help others to learn from our experience.

You know someone posts a question these days and replies get stated as opinions and it's wrong.

rz,
I have seen many parents mention here that their sons were sent workout schedules before they came to school.

This is NOT A Clemson THING.

I think iitg game had teh right idea, time for a break, a reaaaaaal long one.

quote:

By thepainguy: The pros wait 5 days between starts. Why shouldn't kids get at least as much rest, if not more.

This is one reason why my teams don't travel and don't play in tournaments. Too much risk for too little reward.

Many pitchers throw more innings on their high school teams than they do the rest of the year on their travel/tournament teams.

Teams like East Cobb, Midland Redskins, NorCal, ABD, Houston Heat, and hundreds of others who produce DI recruits and high draft picks would disagree with the... too much risk for too little reward theory.

The 600+ scouts and college recruiters who attend a few of these tournaments are there looking to "reward" players they like.

Don't travel and don't play in tournaments... Don't work very well for most people!

I'd be willing to do a study to see what first round picks do, just in the interest of accuracy! Do they travel and play in tournaments or do they stay at home and not play in tournaments. I'll do the research, but do I really need to?

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:

rz,
I have seen many parents mention here that their sons were sent workout schedules before they came to school.

This is NOT A Clemson THING.

Never said a Clemson thing, all I said was that Clemson may do it one way but that is not necessarily the "golden rule" for all schools and for those schools who may recommend a program it may not be followed by the player. Let's not get worked up over this as it was a compliment to Clemson for following up with what is expected.

I guess only some are entitled to opinions. geez

Tournaments and travel are part of the fun of baseball I don't think any research is necessary

Ultimately, It is the player and the parent that need to understand there limitation's.
Don't throw harder than your capable of.
Don't throw more inning's than your in shape for.
Shutdown if you've overused your arm.
It's not worth hurting your arm over.
Live to pitch another day.
EH

Quality teams have no trouble attracting all the quality pitching they could use all season, without abusing anyone. Teams here routinely use 3 and 4 pitchers a game in tournaments and carry a dozen pitchers or more. High school coaches are the abusers based on first hand experience.

quote:

Ultimately, It is the player and the parent that need to understand there limitation's.
Don't throw harder than your capable of.
Don't throw more inning's than your in shape for.
Shutdown if you've overused your arm.
It's not worth hurting your arm over.
Live to pitch another day.
EH

EH - wonderful advice

[quote]And as far as your remark regarding the possibility of my son being unfortunate someday to suffer a major arm injury that was really unnecessay.quote]

Hmmmmm....I guess it is okay for YOU to throw out judgemental "opinions", that you justify by adding the infamous "IMO" (which somehow exonerates ANY statement made apparently) .....sorry you PERCEIVED my comment to be "unnecessary"....now you know how it feels.

By the way...I said "IF" someday your son should unfortunately suffer a major arm injury.....NEVER did I wish that on him. Read more carefully next time please.

THAT is as far as I'm responding to you TPM. So go ahead....have the last word. You usually do.

Some of our sons have excelled every step of the way, some have burnt out, bloomed late or otherwise gone on to very happy, rewarding lives outside the diamond. Some of our beloved sons have struggled mightily with major arm injury/surgery issues. It is unwise for anyone to assume their experience bespeaks of issues beyond anothers...
luvbb reached out with her personal experience in a most thoughtful way...as it happens my son, a catcher also, injured his arm in nearly the exact circumstance. It can happen anywhere, anytime, under the most watchful eyes. Luvbb gave an important warning about catcher's arms and cicumstance...they are not monitored or watched like pitchers (except by parents), plus, at college level they catch bullpens during the week. This is a good thread, with valuable information...it is not the "showcase's" fault...but it happens there, mostly because the kid just wants to do his best. It is true some HS coaches overuse arms, so then parents step in. And then there is "luck" or lack thereof ...genetics do actually play a small part, some kids just have "tighter" muscles and tendons, anyone (besides a specialist) who gives an opinion on the cause of arm injury would need to be carrying an MRI in their pocket.
I know, without a doubt, luvbb would not wish her sons experiences on anyone. Webster's dictionary says "unfortunate" is unfavorable or bad luck, a word very unlikely to be used the way it has been interpreted.

theEh: You make a good point regarding the player and the parent needing to understand their limitations, and to shut down if you've overused your arm.

But I don't know how many high school kids feel comfortable in telling the coach that he can't pitch anymore.....if he does, that very well may be the last time he not only pitches, but plays the game for that coach. You'd like to think that a coach would be understanding, but not all of them are. Some would and DO put a win ahead of a kid's arm. Sad but true.

And imagine if a parent were to tell the coach that his son can't pitch for awhile...or must be limited to X number of innings!!!!

But it is your son's future.


My older son is a two-way player. He currently has a sprained UCL which may require surgery. Did he pitch too much? Probably not. Did he play the infield too much? Probably not. But did he pitch and throw too much in the same game? Probably.

As my younger son's surgeon said-- "the shoulder doesn't know the different between a pitch and a throw." He also said that when you count or consider pitches, don't forget the warm-ups."

Do I wish that, as a closer coming in from shortstop, he would have had more of a warm up than the allowed six pitches? You bet I do. Especially on those cold early spring days.

Do I wish we weren't in the position that we are in right now?

But then I could not be participate in this thread in the way that I am.

But I'd rather be watching my sons play baseball.

After watching two elbow surgeries due to an osteo chondral defect the advice I would give to any player or parent is to listen to your son if they tell you their arm is sore. At young age(10 years old) son complained of an elbow ache when he threw hard.Even after speaking with professional pitching coaches and an orthopedic surgeon we felt like everything was fine and normal and continued to let him throw. At 13 after pitching only 3 innings (son never pitched that much at any age)of season had arm pain and swelling that turned out to be osteochondritas dissecans a disease caused by throwing harder than bones or cartilage could withstand(bad mechanics play a role). This disease affects a part of the cartilage as a bruise and causes a piece of bone to die which in effect never heals.The point is as a parent you never know what causes arm pain and it is better to be safe than sorry. Son is now High School senior and after being recruited by big DI schools as 3rd baseman/ 1st baseman as sophomore switched and learned to throw left handed as Junior. After signing with Marshall in the fall our son has fulfilled one of his dreams to play College baseball. There are many reasons for arm pain each and every one may or may not be serious, have arm examined thoroughly and be cautious if pain continues whatever the pain is.It is easier to be cautious than to watch your son go through painful rehab to reach goals of playing the game that they love.Link to his story in training and conditioning magazine
http://www.momentummedia.com/articles/tc/tc1607/tyleroliver.htm

quote:

There are many reasons for arm pain each and every one may or may not be serious, have arm examined thoroughly and be cautious if pain continues whatever the pain is.It is easier to be cautious than to watch your son go through painful rehab to reach goals of playing the game that they love

Also, congrats on your son's signing with Marshall!

quote:

Son is now High School senior and after being recruited by big DI schools as 3rd baseman/ 1st baseman as sophomore switched and learned to throw left handed as Junior.

That is an unbelievable story and I mean that as a true compliment

Greg Oden is Ohio State's 7 foot wonder kind. He looks like he is 19 years old going on 35 or older. He broke his shooting hand and shot free throws with his left hand this year. He hit more than most NBA players with their normal hands.

I am not sure what causes arm injurues, my son has never had one. I voted for a combination of things.

I do know that we have ALWAYS used pitch count limits and allowed plenty of rest between starts.

Now that I no longer coach my son this is harder to enforce. But I have always been up front with the coach and discussed this before son played for him.

School ball brings a different challange in that a parent usually does not have that kind of influence on HS coach. The HS coach knows how I fell about this and so far there has not been a problem.

LexBaseball,

The story about your son is amazing! What a dedicated player! Congrats to him, and please keep us informed as he finishes his senior year and moves on to college baseball.

LexBaseball,

Sorry, the link didn't work. Did I read your post correctly? Your son switched throwing hands after his sophomore season? Holy Cow! Let us know how it turns out!

lex
thats someone who loves game and isn't giving up.
i wish him the best.
randy savage did the same thing. but wrestling turned out to be his ticket.

Yes he switched from throwing right handed summer of 05 because he had 2nd surgery and was told by 4 out of 5 orthopedic surgeons we met with that they could not see him throwing basball with out further damaging his arm. He is very good hitter and hitting doesn't affect his elbow. In Dec of 05 we realized elbow was going to be a problem with playing at the next level so he committed himself to switch to throwing left handed.He started 06 season left handed and hasn't looked back, had many local coaches attack him with bunts and early steals and did good job of making the plays. As of now he throws where someone would not know he was not always left handed.He looks at what is ahead in life not what could have been. In reality it is hard not to blame youselves as parents with the responsibilities of watching over your kids but we never let him pitch again after 13 and he threw limited amount for most of time in the meantime. Baseball has meant so much to our family and even with all the success he has had as a player (led team to KY high school state championship in 05)the most proud accomplishment is his dedication to his dream and never quitting. We just hope for healthy seasons to come and as parents know he has the determination to cope with down times whatever they may be.

WOW!!!

By the way, welcome to the HSBBW!

Interesting timing on this topic. Just heard of a 15YO who is going under the knife for TJ. Two comments were made: the boy relied heavily on the curve over the years; and he threw over 125 pitches in his first HS game this year. No way to know for sure the cause. But a 15YO needing TJ is disturbing.

With the exception of a growth plate injury, all of my arm troubles have been caused by overuse.

quote:

Originally posted by NC Flamethrower:
With the exception of a growth plate injury, all of my arm troubles have been caused by overuse.

Typically, growth plate injuries ARE caused by overuse. The overuse weakens the plate and then it separates one day.

Oh, nevermind then. Thanks Painguy

I believe that arm injuries most often result from a combination of things. One of the biggest culprits is mechanics, but also throwing too much and without enough rest between pitching appearances to let the arm get some rest. I also believe that certain pitches are more likely to contribute to arm injuries than other pitches. As many of you already know, I'd include the splitter as one of them, but also the slider and improperly thrown curveball.

We recently had a discussion on another thread about arm injuries, and Deemax and I had a bit of a debate about the splitter. He said some things that really made me think, and one of the things he asked was if my son pitched and caught the same day when he was injured. No, the day his elbow let go, he only caught but I got to thinking about the times his high school coach had him do both in a game, and in one specific example in a high school tournament, he pitched a 99 pitch shutout and then the coach put him behind the plate about three hours later to catch 7 innings. I wasn't happy about it then, and I'm even less happy when I think back on it now. I remember my son complaining about his arm after that, but he recovered (or seemed to) within a few days. Looking back, I'm pretty sure that was a contributor to his injury.

quote:

No, the day his elbow let go, he only caught but I got to thinking about the times his high school coach had him do both in a game, and in one specific example in a high school tournament, he pitched a 99 pitch shutout and then the coach put him behind the plate about three hours later to catch 7 innings. I wasn't happy about it then, and I'm even less happy when I think back on it now.

06catcherdad - I always enjoy your posts. I am guessing there is a tendancy to look back and beat yourself up. Please don't - you obviously have your son's best interest in mind Some kids have followed everything to the letter and still run into problems. Some of those things you mention may have contributed as you noted but we cannot go back and unring the bell.

Going forward with a positive attitude seems to be a key. Amazing how creative the human mind can be when it really needs to solve a problem. One poster in this thread, his son was told he could no longer throw due to injury - career over. Not so fast!!! The kid MERELY taught himself to throw with the other hand!

I have been reading this topic with great interest. I have had a high schooler with TJ. Here is my take. Mine was a thrower. He threw everything all the time. I mean everything. Probably did more damage to his arm playing dodgeball in PE class in elementary school than he ever did on a baseball field, playing volleyball on the beach or wiffle ball in the backyard. I wouldn't and couldn't put him in a bubble. We watched his pitch counts, made sure he had rest between starts, worked on his mechanics constantly and stayed in great shape year round. He competed at everything he did and never gave less than 100%. To ask otherwise was against his character. He was genetically given a certain number of throws in that arm and he used them up at 17. He would tell you he did not get cheated on a one of them. He also has no regrets about any of them. Luckily modern technology allowed him to have a second chance.

So when it came to what caused my kids injury, it was life. We could have limited him more and protected him more but he would have hated it. That competitive nature and drive are what has made him successful. It happens!!!

deldad,

I for one and so glad you posted that. This topic is about "What causes arm injuries". A very good topic, but it doesn't address another important topic many are interested in... "What causes a player/pitcher to be successful".

Is success possible without any risk? Is it possible to reach full potential without risk? Did those who are among the very best who ever lived, play it safe at all times?

There has to be a blend between what might be the least risky vs what is the most risky. There has to be some common ground between doing too much and doing not enough. Afterall, if we went the safest route, the very best players wouldn't throw a baseball until they made it to the top. We all know that is impossible (I think)!

So the bottom line seems to be an unknown (at least to me) because history has many different case studies, most of what some would say involve some kind of over use along the way. I don't think anyone has this figured out yet (for sure not me)!

Finding out that spot which is not over-doing it or under-doing it simply is not the same in every player. Did Sandy Koufax over do it? Did John Smoltz over do it (he had TJ surgery)? Can we think of a single player that made it to the top who under did it? Unfortunately there is a risk involved in over doing it.

Kind of like Goldylocks and the three bears... This one is too much… This one is not enough… This one is just right!

I was under the impression that the Koufax career was ended due to an arthritic condition in his elbow not the TJ conditions we see today---I recall reading where he was told that if he kept pitching his arm would be that of a cripple in rapid order---and in his day they did not have the medical prowess we have today---

TR,

Yes that is true. Though some might say the tingling in his fingers was a sign of ulner nerve problems. The amazing part is he threw in pain, which got worse, the last 5 years of his career.

Based on that, I would ask this question… Was averaging over 300 innings a year over his last 4 years over-doing it in his case? His most successful years were spent in constant pain. Using him as a case study... Did he do too much, too little or just the right amount? Pain is a sure warning sign that there could be a problem, yet he kept pitching until the end. And I suppose he could have still been successful the next year, based on his 27-9 record with a 1.73 ERA and 317 SOs his last year.

Probably not the best example for making a point, but it was what popped up in my head.

PG


Again we go back to an era that you and I know where guys just threw and threw---the booze from the nite before eased the pain---Robin Roberts ia another one who threw and threw

TR,

I am laughing about that one and completely understand, but geeez , you might want to delete that one comment. Hate to be part of a new trend with young players that might read this stuff.

#1 Improper throwing mechanics
#2 Not throwing enough and then trying to throw too much.

Coach May,

I do believe you have nailed it. And in just a few words. Only thing I might change is which is number one and two. And add too often to too much

With any job you love you put your heart and soul into it. In a pitchers life its the arm, with basketball its the legs, with football its the body, with sokker its a toenail, and with us 9-5 workers its mental burn out. We are not machines that have defined parts, and when an athlete gets to the top of his field he has paid a price and the flesh and bones took the heat. I think if you told a sucessful athlete that if he did it all over he would have to be more careful,he would say I'll do it my way because no one knows me like I do.

And maybe too soon would be appropriate.

PG

NEW TREND---- if DICE -K has the year they expect from him he will start the trend---think about it---perhaps we have come full circle

TR,

I think I do understand, it will be interesting no matter how it turns out.

We should be in the chat room with this discussion---anyone interested?