What does an Ivy, Patriot League or D3 coach do now to fill 2021 class?

@ABSORBER posted:

I am sure they get paid. I doubt they do this just to see recruits. They all hold their own camps where they take in money and have the opportunity to see players. For Showball to get as many coaches as they do, there has to be some incentive. All eight Ivy HC's are at numerous Showball events in a given year. Some Ivy HC's attend the Stanford camp as well.

This is why I mentioned Showball on this thread. I was recommending Showball over HF because ONLY head coaches attend. I think some folks on here think that Showball just says it's a HC Academic Camp and maybe a few will show up. That's not true at all. Showball means HC are attending; that's their business model. I just checked their web site and see there are just two non-HC camps this year: the West Coast World Series Camp and the Super Mega Camp). And there are 8 Head Coach Academic Camps for 2020 (of course subject to COVID changes I'm sure). All the Ivy HC's will be attending all of the HC Academic Camps. Like they have in previous years. I doubt they do this for free. Now is it possible their non-school business gets the payment and they turn around and pay their assistants from that pot? I'm sure that's very possible. But I doubt it...

I don't mean to sound like a Showball fanatic or spokesperson but they did me a huge favor last year and I really appreciate them for it. And I chose their model because it is just what my son needed at the time. So if you think those are the coaches that need to see your son then I highly recommend their camp. Otherwise you can try to hit all of the individual camps those schools hold on their own.

For those interested in Showball, I didn't mean to leave out all of the other schools that attend; I believe all the NESCAC schools attend these Camps as well though I can't say 100% because I didn't keep a list. As I don't know all of them. But I can assure you quite a few were there in Medford, NY last August. I'll try to see if I can dig up the list. It really is the whole gamut of academic schools.

@leftymagic posted:

Don’t know when Stanford updated its website but all residential summer camps at Stanford have been canceled for 2020.  

Thx, Lefty.  I guess they're still trying to keep the camp dates and make them non-residential.  I see how keeping the kids out of dorms could theoretically make them safer, but staying in  hotels may not be a lot better.  

When my son was going through the recruiting process we were out at dinner with an Ivy HC and RC during a campus visit.  During dinner I asked the HC about a small "showcase camp" in Orange County Ca that advertises "Every Ivy League HC will be working the camp", and I asked specifically how the camp gets every Ivy to attend.  He said "Because they pay us".

ABSORBER,

Ok you win,  you know better! 

@TPM posted:

ABSORBER,

Ok you win,  you know better! 

I didn't mean to cause any trouble! I just wanted good information for people on this site!

I did get in trouble a lot in elementary school because I questioned my teachers. Doh! Some things never change!

@ABSORBER posted:

I didn't mean to cause any trouble! I just wanted good information for people on this site!

I did get in trouble a lot in elementary school because I questioned my teachers. Doh! Some things never change!

The world of High Academic college baseball is a small piece of the overall pie. It’s primarily D3 with a couple of D1 conferences and some outliers. It’s a different animal entirely. 

Yes, but they are not all high academic.  Have a look at Best in the US Showcases, not HA, they list coaches by name (but not whether they are HC).  I feel like there were others, some that were more local; MidwestBaseballCamps, for example (actually, they list schools, not coaches).

I agree that the HA market is pretty crowded.  But, there are lots of different slices of this pie.

@adbono posted:

The world of High Academic college baseball is a small piece of the overall pie. It’s primarily D3 with a couple of D1 conferences and some outliers. It’s a different animal entirely. 

Grrrrr. NCAA D1 is no different for Ivy than it is for Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, Alabama, UCF, Arkansas, etc..

They will all attend showcases, host showcases (camps), and attend showcase-like tournaments looking for the right recruit.

Ivy coaches attend academic camps because, well, they are academic camps. The kids are somewhat vetted (well, probably no more than any other camp) but then who wants to pay 1K if your kid has a 2.3 GPA? Actually, I would have been happy with a 2.3 when I graduated from HS!

Concur with Absorber's experience with Showball. Helped us out a couple of years ago, too, when they didn't have to.

Have had excellent experiences with HF, too.

@smokeminside posted:

Concur with Absorber's experience with Showball. Helped us out a couple of years ago, too, when they didn't have to.

Have had excellent experiences with HF, too.

Interestingly, and unbeknownst to us, my son's very good friend (plays on the same H.S. team) attended HF which was a couple of miles away from Showball (Medford, NY) last August. It seemed as if every assistant coach (mostly volunteer assistants) representing the same schools as the HC's who were at Showball, were at HF. Plus other schools.

My son's friend ended up committing to one of the D1's who saw him at HF that week.

@ABSORBER posted:

Grrrrr. NCAA D1 is no different for Ivy than it is for Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, Alabama, UCF, Arkansas, etc..

They will all attend showcases, host showcases (camps), and attend showcase-like tournaments looking for the right recruit.

Ivy coaches attend academic camps because, well, they are academic camps. The kids are somewhat vetted (well, probably no more than any other camp) but then who wants to pay 1K if your kid has a 2.3 GPA? Actually, I would have been happy with a 2.3 when I graduated from HS!

There are some things that all D1 programs have in common. Level of talent is not one of them. Neither is the level of academic standard. Exactly what do you think is the same about programs in the Ivy League and programs in the SEC? 

@adbono posted:

There are some things that all D1 programs have in common. Level of talent is not one of them. Neither is the level of academic standard. Exactly what do you think is the same about programs in the Ivy League and programs in the SEC? 

NCAA rules and regulations. Isn't that what we are all talking about? And yes, the NCAA academic standard is the exact same for the Ivy League and the SEC.

Who's talking about baseball talent?

@ABSORBER posted:

NCAA rules and regulations. Isn't that what we are all talking about? And yes, the NCAA academic standard is the exact same for the Ivy League and the SEC.

Who's talking about baseball talent?

Your comment was very general so I asked you to clarify. You are more interested in arguing than I am. 

OK folks, I'm home from work and since nobody was able to provide this thread with the regulations I looked them up myself. It's really about recruiting irregularities over everything else; not money. The only thing I'm still looking for is the "official" definition for "Recruiting or Scouting Service". Clearly most baseball showcases events are not considered recruiting services. Examples of such? Think NCSA and other organizations that charge recruits for their services. But clearly camps like Stanford, Showball, HF, and many others are NOT considered recruiting services and thus pay coaches. Now what about PG and PBR? Not sure, but I don't think they pay coaches so perhaps that's our answer.

https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/se...awView?id=400#result

NCAA D1 Legislation:

13.12.2.3 Athletics Staff Members. A member institution's athletics staff member may be involved in sports camps or clinics unless otherwise prohibited in this section (see Bylaw 11.3.2.6). [D] (Revised: 8/5/04)

13.12.2.3.1 Camp/Clinic Providing Recruiting or Scouting Service. No athletics department staff member may be employed (either on a salaried or a volunteer basis) in any capacity by a camp or clinic established, sponsored or conducted by an individual or organization that provides recruiting or scouting services concerning prospective student-athletes. In addition, an athletics department staff member may not be employed (either on a salaried or a volunteer basis) in any capacity by a coaches clinic established, sponsored or conducted by an individual or organization that provides recruiting or scouting services concerning prospective student-athletes, even if prospective student athletes are not involved in the coaches clinic. This provision does not prohibit an athletics department staff member from participating in an officiating camp where participants officiate for, but are not otherwise involved in, a scouting services camp. [D] (Adopted: 1/11/89, Revised: 1/10/90, 1/10/92, 8/5/04, 7/24/14)

13.12.2.3.2 Institutional or Noninstitutional, Privately Owned Camps/Clinics -- Baseball. In baseball, an institution's coach or noncoaching staff member with responsibilities specific to baseball may serve in any capacity (e.g., counselor, guest lecturer, consultant) in a noninstitutional, privately owned camp or clinic, provided the camp or clinic is operated in accordance with restrictions applicable to an institutional camp or clinic (e.g., open to any and all entrants, no free or reduced admission to or employment of athletics award winners). However, during a quiet period, an institution's coach or noncoaching staff member with responsibilities specific to baseball may be employed (either on salaried or a volunteer basis) only at his or her institution's camps or clinics that occur on his or her institution's campus or at a facility regularly used by the institution for practice or competition. [D] (Adopted: 4/28/16 effective 8/1/16, Revised: 4/14/17)

So my understanding reading above, is that Showball, HF are not considered same as PG, PBR, so coaches can get paid. 

If that is correct, then what I believed to be true is not 100%.  

I thought that the comment from the coaches that the reason that they attend is because they get paid is pretty telling.  In doing some homework, it's pretty obvious that many, many coaches do not get paid very well.  Which is sad considering how hard they do work.

Showball, HF, PG, PBR, each cater to a specific student athlete/program. That's obvious.

I’m not really sure whether PG and PBR are considered recruiting services. I was just speculating that perhaps they could be considered since I don’t know whether coaches get paid for some of their events. 

But if I had to bet money, I would say they are not. I would imagine a “recruiting service” would be an agency or individual who takes payment from clients for the sole purpose of advocating on their behalf in order to get them recruited. I doubt PG or PBR or any of the other showcase services fall under this umbrella.

Instead I think PG is way too big now and don’t need to pay coaches. Instead, as pointed out by TPM, coaches pay PG so they can attend. Gate fees, etc.. PG also has subscription services that cost $$ where coaches can see info about potential recruits.  I don’t know the early story of PG, perhaps in their early days they did pay coaches to get them to attend. PBR’s model is almost exactly the same. Showball and HF provide reports and video to attending coaches so I don’t see them any differently than I do PG and PBR. I would consider all of them “showcase services” rather than “recruiting services”. 

As far as who attends which? Showball and HF may be academic oriented but PG offers similar showcases. In the end PG and PBR have video and write-ups posted on very visible sites for all (except now you can’t see PBR video without a subscription)  to see. That’s why they are so popular. Oh, and of course their infamous rankings. But PG doesn’t cater to a specific crowd, they cater to all who can afford. Same with everyone else. Many players attend events at all of them for maximum exposure.

The key difference is that Headfirst, Showball, Best in the US, etc. list the coaches who will be present.  They have to be able to guarantee that those coaches will show up, hence paying them.  What you get for your money at those events is to be seen by those coaches.

PBR in our state gets all the in-state coaches, and many out-of-state, at their major recruiting showcases, but they don't list them or advertise that at all.  PG likewise does not list coaches at any events (and some of their showcases, esp during quiet times, don't get any).  What you get for your money is the online write-up and metrics; if coaches see you, that's a plus.  I assume they don't pay coaches.

People have asked on here all the time about the PG Academic game, and whether HA coaches go there; in fact they don't list schools or coaches.  I assume they aren't paying them, therefore can't guarantee who will be there.

What I want to know is, since Showball and Headfirst cost the same, does Showball pay the head coaches more?  But then how are the costs the same?  Economically it doesn't seem to make sense.

So, Harvard has announced it will have a fall semester, but it isn't ruling out having it be partially or fully "virtual," and keeping classes online.  

https://www.thecrimson.com/art...ber-fall-2020-email/

If you ask me, this reads like Harvard is trying to ease everyone into the idea that students will not be returning in the fall, at least not right away.  If high academic schools stick with distance learning this fall, it's really hard to see how their baseball coaches can recruit in person this summer and fall.  If the early decision application deadline is still sometime in November, 2021s will need to know where they are going by then.

On top of that, I'm beginning to think there is little to no chance of either Showball or Head First holding showcases in Long Island this summer.  Suffolk County, were they both hold their events, has had over 32,000 confirmed cases and over 1,000 deaths.  

https://columbia.maps.arcgis.c...4325a12a5b9c09ba796c

What are the chances that the state of New York will lift restrictions enough to allow a baseball showcase in late July or early August?  At a minimum, I think these events will have to be held elsewhere.

Sorry, feeling a little gloomy today, I guess.

@LuckyCat posted:

So, Harvard has announced it will have a fall semester, but it isn't ruling out having it be partially or fully "virtual," and keeping classes online.  

https://www.thecrimson.com/art...ber-fall-2020-email/

If you ask me, this reads like Harvard is trying to ease everyone into the idea that students will not be returning in the fall, at least not right away.  If high academic schools stick with distance learning this fall, it's really hard to see how their baseball coaches can recruit in person this summer and fall.  If the early decision application deadline is still sometime in November, 2021s will need to know where they are going by then.

On top of that, I'm beginning to think there is little to no chance of either Showball or Head First holding showcases in Long Island this summer.  Suffolk County, were they both hold their events, has had over 32,000 confirmed cases and over 1,000 deaths.  

https://columbia.maps.arcgis.c...4325a12a5b9c09ba796c

What are the chances that the state of New York will lift restrictions enough to allow a baseball showcase in late July or early August?  At a minimum, I think these events will have to be held elsewhere.

Sorry, feeling a little gloomy today, I guess.

It's ok to feel gloomy, perfectly natural.  We all have our days.  That said, I do think this is a bit pessimistic.  The schools are going to do everything they can to keep their businesses operational.  Same with the camps.  They basically run a seasonal, very limited business model and they have to make this work.  So if not Long Island, which can obviously be in a much different place come summer, they'll find a location in CT or NJ or Upstate NY where there's been a far smaller caseload from the jump.  That may be overly optimistic, but that's how I'm looking at it.  

Saw this on Twitter today:

An interview with Columbia's Coach Dan Tischler.

https://baseballrecruitingconf...m/podcast-episode75/

@ABSORBER posted:

Saw this on Twitter today:

An interview with Columbia's Coach Dan Tischler.

https://baseballrecruitingconf...m/podcast-episode75/

Thank you for passing along. Have found Coach Tischler to be a great communicator.  

@Wechson posted:

Thank you for passing along. Have found Coach Tischler to be a great communicator.  

No problem!

I just finished listening to it. Honestly, one of the BEST RC interviews I've heard at any level. Coach Tischler doesn't beat around the bush and is very upfront and honest in this interview. What he articulates in regards to test scores and GPA are exactly in line with what he told my son on his visit to Columbia. So if you are interested in Ivy recruiting, this is a very good resource.

I don't know anything about Justin Musil or his organization (a bit late for us as my son is a 2020) but I plan on listening to few other podcasts he has posted on his website.

He came to watch a game at my son's high school last year.  He was very low key and unassuming.  I'm not sure who he was looking at, as no one committed to Columbia last year.

I've been downloading this podcast for a couple of months.  There is a very good interview with Rucker Taylor from Davidson as well.

@ABSORBER posted:

I don't know anything about Justin Musil or his organization (a bit late for us as my son is a 2020) but I plan on listening to few other podcasts he has posted on his website.

I’ve found Justin’s series of podcasts to be the most useful learning experience for me alongside  HSBBW and select ABCA episodes. 

@ABSORBER posted:

No problem!

I just finished listening to it. Honestly, one of the BEST RC interviews I've heard at any level. Coach Tischler doesn't beat around the bush and is very upfront and honest in this interview. What he articulates in regards to test scores and GPA are exactly in line with what he told my son on his visit to Columbia. So if you are interested in Ivy recruiting, this is a very good resource.

I don't know anything about Justin Musil or his organization (a bit late for us as my son is a 2020) but I plan on listening to few other podcasts he has posted on his website.

Great podcast with some great information. I'm surprised with some of the kids that have the academics to be recruited by an Ivy that don't even consider it, especially with the numbers crunch coming up at most Big State U's.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Great podcast with some great information. I'm surprised with some of the kids that have the academics to be recruited by an Ivy that don't even consider it, especially with the numbers crunch coming up at most Big State U's.

I would like to caveat this by saying not all Ivy's have the same initial requirements as Columbia. Harvard, Princeton, and Yale all have more stringent requirements. That being said, if your player is also being recruited by P5 schools, those three can probably work with the numbers Coach Tischler mentioned. As long as your player is one of the first recruits to whom they make an offer. Once they offer a player the academic index for that recruiting class becomes a little less flexible. Unless of course those P5 recruits also have 34 ACTs and/or 1500+ SATs, a great GPA, and a very rigorous course-load! Then they may have a little more flexibility with their next one or two recruits.

This is my first post on baseball web.  I have spent the last couple of years getting valuable insight as what to expect when my son got into his senior year.  He is a 2021 RHP with a 4.50 GPA and was fortunate enough to get the ACT test taken last year scoring a 33.  He sits 84-86 in his bullpens topping out at 87 (for now).  We spent last summer prepping for ACT and just grinding out summer games for development.  We stayed away from any major showcases with the mindset that this is the year he would be ready for primetime (he is a young junior and still developing).  Unfortunately it appears as though the summer plans for everyone will not be exactly what we thought it would be and the competition for colleges will now be at at even more of a premium.  I'm just glad we focused more on the academics than the baseball as it seems this is what will get him where he wants to go.  I'm just hoping there is still time left to try and fit baseball into his college plans.  

Keep the conversations going gentlemen.  It helps all of us noob dads.

Welcome, Cali!

Welcome! 

Welcome!  Since he's a pitcher, take video with radar gun, and send it to schools of interest, now, before things start to get going again.

Another is correct. Do not wait. Get something positive on video and send it out.

Thanks all.  I have video and it has been posted and sent.  My son has gotten some good response and even asked directly for transcripts and test scores.  I will take more and have it ready to go.  Radar gun seems essential for authentication of velocity.  Thanks for advice!

Welcome CaliDad. Good that your son received those test scores. With his stellar GPA too he's got the Academic piece of the HA baseball schools. Your son should continue to work on the baseball side, as best as he can in the virtual environment. Some good advice on video aspect above.

Echo the above, CaliDad. And I’m not sure what your plans are for the next 6 months, but I suggest you ensure that he is at the WWBAs as well as at the AZ Classic. 

The dead period was just extended to 6/30, and there's serious talk about 7/31. No recruiting in July would mean no eyes on 2021s at the WWBA and many other big tournaments. That would be just brutal for Ivy recruiting. I know those coaches are dying to see kids play in person.

A lot of HS go back beginning of August.  Extending the dead period to 7/31 would essentially kill summer recruiting.   Time for more 'thinking outside the box'.  Feel sorry for those boys whose parents are just sitting around waiting for their summer coaches to make things happen.

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