What does an Ivy, Patriot League or D3 coach do now to fill 2021 class?

ABSORBER posted:

Smitty28 posted:

Columbia seemed to be at all the big tournaments when my son was going through the process.  I saw them at WWBA in GA, Jupiter, USA Baseball in AZ.  They seemed to be more active (certainly more visible) than other Ivy's.

They were the first Ivy to show interest in my son and the first to invite him to visit. They were at the PBR Future Games and definitely they attend WWBA events.

Columbia's formula: Solid HC. Usually have an ace or two. Recruit big guys with an uppercut swing.  (Fielding usually doesn't hurt over the course of the season, often a result of a player out of position because bat is needed).

Any 2022 kids getting these invites?

Are they allowed to talk to 2022 kids directly yet?

anotherparent posted:

No coach ever asked my son to go to either Headfirst or Showball.  All his invitations to Headfirst came directly from Headfirst, and same with Showball.  That was a couple of years ago.  If now head coaches are telling people to go to Showball, then that's different from what my son experienced - maybe it's the shutdown, maybe it's marketing.  

 

Yes, I think this is specifically Corona-virus related.  The head coaches are reaching out to potential recruits they have on their lists to advise them where they will be this summer--Showball--rather than asking them where the recruits will be because their travel will be limited and they aren't having a prospect camp.  A couple of the emails say this. 

Interestingly, two schools so far have followed up to clarify that other staff will be at other events, so I guess they are reading this forum. 

I think you guys need to learn how email lists work and how email functionality can be manipulated. Nobody is reading these forums. Good lord.

You would be amazed at the money that showcases and camps pay coaches, especially HC's, to be at events.  There is a tiered system with many of them.  When you show up, sometimes they will ask you what schools you are interested in or where did you get the information from.  That goes directly back to the coaches.  I know some will have the organization or school in the email list so they know they sent them out.  Some are required to send the invite to a certain amount of schools.  Coaches make good money just going to showcases and camps to sit in the stands or in the booths. 

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think you guys need to learn how email lists work and how email functionality can be manipulated. Nobody is reading these forums. Good lord.

Actually there are several college coaches on this forum that very rarely respond but are on here and read it.  There are also several parents of college coaches on here also.  A couple of my friends that are D1 coaches are on here either as lurkers or readers.  They have sent me texts about my posts and other posts.

Yes exactly pitching.... it’s a way for them to get “credit”. Not really a signal as to how they will be recruiting.

PitchingFan posted:

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think you guys need to learn how email lists work and how email functionality can be manipulated. Nobody is reading these forums. Good lord.

Actually there are several college coaches on this forum that very rarely respond but are on here and read it.  There are also several parents of college coaches on here also.  A couple of my friends that are D1 coaches are on here either as lurkers or readers.  They have sent me texts about my posts and other posts.

HeadFirst consistently posts on here.  Thought the sanctimonious tone of that post was unnecessary.  If you have information that you'd like to share with people (eg how email lists works) by all means do so.  Many would appreciate it. But if you're going to get chippy about matters at least be correct in your assertions. 

PitchingFan posted:

You would be amazed at the money that showcases and camps pay coaches, especially HC's, to be at events.  There is a tiered system with many of them.  When you show up, sometimes they will ask you what schools you are interested in or where did you get the information from.  That goes directly back to the coaches.  I know some will have the organization or school in the email list so they know they sent them out.  Some are required to send the invite to a certain amount of schools.  Coaches make good money just going to showcases and camps to sit in the stands or in the booths. 

We have had this discussion before.

What divisions are these HCs from. If they are paid D1 coaches, that's illegal. 

For unpaid assistants to work camps or showcases, it's not. 

I would be curious to know what coaches actually are lurkers.

TPM posted:

PitchingFan posted:

You would be amazed at the money that showcases and camps pay coaches, especially HC's, to be at events.  There is a tiered system with many of them.  When you show up, sometimes they will ask you what schools you are interested in or where did you get the information from.  That goes directly back to the coaches.  I know some will have the organization or school in the email list so they know they sent them out.  Some are required to send the invite to a certain amount of schools.  Coaches make good money just going to showcases and camps to sit in the stands or in the booths. 

We have had this discussion before.

What divisions are these HCs from. If they are paid D1 coaches, that's illegal. 

For unpaid assistants to work camps or showcases, it's not. 

I would be curious to know what coaches actually are lurkers.

 

Then they wouldn't be lurkers haha

PitchingFan posted:

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think you guys need to learn how email lists work and how email functionality can be manipulated. Nobody is reading these forums. Good lord.

Actually there are several college coaches on this forum that very rarely respond but are on here and read it.  There are also several parents of college coaches on here also.  A couple of my friends that are D1 coaches are on here either as lurkers or readers.  They have sent me texts about my posts and other posts.

As a parent of two sons that played HS and college baseball this site has been very valuable to me. Especially in helping to develop recruiting strategies. I have also developed some good friendships and have learned a lot of things on a lot of subjects. I would highly recommend this site to the parents of any aspiring ballplayer. 

 I’m also a Volunteer Asst Coach at a Texas Jr College. From the standpoint of a college coach I see no benefits to being on this site. I find it very hard to believe that any paid college coaches are on this site, (and posting), unless it is purely for the sake of amusement. 

Purely amusement.  i didn't say they were posting but they do read it every now and then.  One has told me it gives him perspective when dealing with parents and a good laugh every now and then.

I think that was my point.... if anything it’s for amusement. Sorry wech it’s the truth 

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think that was my point.... if anything it’s for amusement. Sorry wech it’s the truth 

I'm not debating that at all, so no need to apologize.  This is a platform for parents and students, and a useful one at that.  My comment was specifically in regards to Showcases, given that Headfirst posts on here frequently.  Which makes sense given that this is their target audience.  Needless to say coaches have better things to do, even now. 

Wechson posted:

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think that was my point.... if anything it’s for amusement. Sorry wech it’s the truth 

I'm not debating that at all, so no need to apologize.  This is a platform for parents and students, and a useful one at that.  My comment was specifically in regards to Showcases, given that Headfirst posts on here frequently.  Which makes sense given that this is their target audience.  Needless to say coaches have better things to do, even now. 

Absolutely you are correct. 

TPM posted:

Wechson posted:

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think that was my point.... if anything it’s for amusement. Sorry wech it’s the truth 

I'm not debating that at all, so no need to apologize.  This is a platform for parents and students, and a useful one at that.  My comment was specifically in regards to Showcases, given that Headfirst posts on here frequently.  Which makes sense given that this is their target audience.  Needless to say coaches have better things to do, even now. 

Absolutely you are correct. 

Thank you @TPM. In these days of stay at home lockdowns, those are words I'm no longer accustomed to hearing :-)

TPM posted:

Wechson posted:

Fmr coach now Dad posted:

I think that was my point.... if anything it’s for amusement. Sorry wech it’s the truth 

I'm not debating that at all, so no need to apologize.  This is a platform for parents and students, and a useful one at that.  My comment was specifically in regards to Showcases, given that Headfirst posts on here frequently.  Which makes sense given that this is their target audience.  Needless to say coaches have better things to do, even now. 

Absolutely you are correct. 

Agreed. If they aren’t going to read emails from players it’s pretty hard to believe that they would read posts from parents on a message board. 

What?  Wait!  What?  They're NOT reading my son's emails that I've so carefully crafted for, uh,  I mean WITH him?

smokeminside posted:

What?  Wait!  What?  They're NOT reading my son's emails that I've so carefully crafted for, uh,  I mean WITH him?

Well, they might read YOUR emails. Always a chance that it’s a sestina. 

I guess I should let everyone know that since Chico threw down the gauntlet of the villanelle I have ventured into that rarest of territories. After almost three weeks I have written four lines, which I will share later. Please be patient and do not crowd the audience in front of you.

In the meantime I will leave you with this:

There once was a man from Nantucket

Who, when he swung, always stepped in the bucket.

Each fine day at the plate

he still swung his bat late

And as for strike three, well, he tucket.

smokeminside posted:

I guess I should let everyone know that since Chico threw down the gauntlet of the villanelle I have ventured into that rarest of territories. After almost three weeks I have written four lines, which I will share later. Please be patient and do not crowd the audience in front of you.

In the meantime I will leave you with this:

There once was a man from Nantucket

Who, when he swung, always stepped in the bucket.

Each fine day at the plate

he still swung his bat late

And as for strike three, well, he tucket.

I was more than a little concerned about where you were going with that after reading the first line.....

Well, I still have children at home.

But, in these trying times, I must admit I've become quite fond of one of bucket's doppelgängers in particular.

BTW, I should have worked Kirby Puckett into that thing.  I'm a little slow today. 

Wish they were ball players!

PitchingFan posted:

Purely amusement.  i didn't say they were posting but they do read it every now and then.  One has told me it gives him perspective when dealing with parents and a good laugh every now and then.

No one said that you implied that they posted.

If a coach has to come to the HSBBW to get a better perspective on dealing with parents, he can't be a very good coach.  Not sure if you meant HS or college coaches, but either way to suggest that they come here for entertainment is an insult to both parents and coaches. JMO

I also want to make clear, since you did not, that paid D1 coaches do not participate in camps or showcases and do not get paid for attending college showcases or any event on campus.  Don't confuse folks by making them think that if they saw XYZ  University was attending an on campus event or showcase, more than likely its the unpaid assistant.

This doesn't apply to the the larger events attended by paid coaches, like PG, PBR,  HF, who are actually recruiting because this is their job.   

Fact is that they have to pay the same gate fees as you do.

I know that you will take this the wrong way, but please be clear regarding your statements.  

I live in the Dallas area. The JuCo where I’m a Volunteer Asst Coach is in West Texas. So I’m not on campus very often. I do what I can from here - which is some scouting, recruiting & advising. I go to a lot of showcases - mostly in DFW but also other areas of Texas. Sometimes I have been paid but most times I opt not to be paid because I want to evaluate players that show potential not players that have been assigned to me to grade. FWIW most coaches do a pretty good job on the evaluations. To echo the point that TPM made, not once have I ever seen a D1 HC at a showcase event where coaches are being paid. If a D1 school is represented it is always a non-paid guy and usually the lowest guy on the ladder. I have seen D2 HCs at these events but the majority of the schools are D3 and JuCo - and these schools recruit heavily at these events. I imagine that many of you already know all this but if you are a newcomer to HSBBW, there you go. 

@adbono posted:

I live in the Dallas area. The JuCo where I’m a Volunteer Asst Coach is in West Texas. So I’m not on campus very often. I do what I can from here - which is some scouting, recruiting & advising. I go to a lot of showcases - mostly in DFW but also other areas of Texas. Sometimes I have been paid but most times I opt not to be paid because I want to evaluate players that show potential not players that have been assigned to me to grade. FWIW most coaches do a pretty good job on the evaluations. To echo the point that TPM made, not once have I ever seen a D1 HC at a showcase event where coaches are being paid. If a D1 school is represented it is always a non-paid guy and usually the lowest guy on the ladder. I have seen D2 HCs at these events but the majority of the schools are D3 and JuCo - and these schools recruit heavily at these events. I imagine that many of you already know all this but if you are a newcomer to HSBBW, there you go. 

Hmm, not saying I don’t believe you but I suppose the “legality” regarding their pay must be documented somewhere in the NCAA. I’ll take a look when I get a chance but in the meantime if someone has it please post it here so we all can be enlightened.

As far as attendance, most definitely head coaches and paid assistant coaches attend  showcases, not only those put on by third-party organizations and individuals, but also those put on by themselves. And in many cases the check the player submits to attend is made out to the HC. I am sure he pays people out of this fund (unpaid assistants and others) but I don’t know whether he gets any of it.

So clearly someone receives money when a HC attends Showball (and for those that haven’t attended they are ALL head coaches). And also Stanford Camp. And others my son has attended where HC’s were present WITHOUT any of their assistant coaches being there at the same time.

First of all, you have to distinguish between a camp and a showcase. And there are various kinds of both. What I related was my own personal experience at the showcase events that I have attended. I attend events that are frequented by players that are junior college prospects.  That eliminates Head First and other events that target high academic student athletes. I didn’t say that HCs never attend camps or showcases. I said that at the showcases I have attended, where coaches have gotten paid, I have never seen a D1 HC. Next time I would encourage you to read a little more closely before you fire off an argumentative response. 

@adbono posted:

To echo the point that TPM made, not once have I ever seen a D1 HC at a showcase event where coaches are being paid. If a D1 school is represented it is always a non-paid guy and usually the lowest guy on the ladder. 

TPM posted this today: “paid D1 coaches do not participate in camps or showcases and do not get paid for attending college showcases or any event on campus.“

And this yesterday: “We have had this discussion before. What divisions are these HCs from. If they are paid D1 coaches, that's illegal. “

What exactly was the point you were echoing in your post?

A lot of good information can be found on this site but just as you’ll find out on the internet, there is a lot of wrong or misleading information as well. Not trying to be argumentative, just seeking truth.

@ABSORBER posted:

Hmm, not saying I don’t believe you but I suppose the “legality” regarding their pay must be documented somewhere in the NCAA. I’ll take a look when I get a chance but in the meantime if someone has it please post it here so we all can be enlightened.

As far as attendance, most definitely head coaches and paid assistant coaches attend  showcases, not only those put on by third-party organizations and individuals, but also those put on by themselves. And in many cases the check the player submits to attend is made out to the HC. I am sure he pays people out of this fund (unpaid assistants and others) but I don’t know whether he gets any of it.

So clearly someone receives money when a HC attends Showball (and for those that haven’t attended they are ALL head coaches). And also Stanford Camp. And others my son has attended where HC’s were present WITHOUT any of their assistant coaches being there at the same time.

Camps have nothing to do with the university. All, or I will say is that most camps, are owned by the HC, and it belongs to them. Some camps are bigger money makers than others. I am going on what knowledge I have from D1, D2.

I think that I posted this recently, but will repeat. Coaches average their camp attendance yearly. They pay the volunteer assistants monthly on a draw. When the players help they get a paycheck as well.  That's where the camp money goes.  If the coach doesn't own the camp, the money is dispensed through the school. The paid assistant coaches, will get a check for the prospect camps, pitching, catcher, hitting. That money is considered their bonus. The larger the attendance the more money for the volunteers. At some programs with huge camps, the volunteer assistant can make just as much as a paid coach, but has no benefits. 

Not sure what coaches you are talking about, D1, D2, D3?   I think D3 HC from smaller programs coaches do help at  other camps, showcases, depends on the structure of the program. In smaller programs the HC may be  the pitching coach or the  hitting coach, and get a small salary.  He may not  be able to afford 2 paid assistants, so he has to go on the road as well.

We weren't talking about camps or , showcase programs that are at the coaches own program.

I think one of the reasons why so many work their butts off is to become a HC and not have to go on the road unless necessary.  HCs run the business side of the team. 

I am not familiar with how Snowball or Stanford runs their business. 

@ABSORBER posted:

TPM posted this today: “paid D1 coaches do not participate in camps or showcases and do not get paid for attending college showcases or any event on campus.“

And this yesterday: “We have had this discussion before. What divisions are these HCs from. If they are paid D1 coaches, that's illegal. “

What exactly was the point you were echoing in your post?

A lot of good information can be found on this site but just as you’ll find out on the internet, there is a lot of wrong or misleading information as well. Not trying to be argumentative, just seeking truth.

I was echoing the point that I have never seen a D1 HC at any of the showcase events that I have attended. TPM has a great deal of experience and knowledge and I respect her opinions. There is a big distinction between the rules in D1 and all the other divisions of baseball. She knows that and I know that. The key to making this site productive is to figure out who the most experienced and knowledgeable people are and then give more weight to their voices. It’s just as important to figure out who are the people that are most knowledgeable about the level of baseball that applies to you. What’s true for D1 May not be true in D3. What’s true in Texas may not be true in Massachusetts. It’s hard to speak in generalities and still be accurate across the board. 

@ABSORBER posted:

TPM posted this today: “paid D1 coaches do not participate in camps or showcases and do not get paid for attending college showcases or any event on campus.“

And this yesterday: “We have had this discussion before. What divisions are these HCs from. If they are paid D1 coaches, that's illegal. “

What exactly was the point you were echoing in your post?

A lot of good information can be found on this site but just as you’ll find out on the internet, there is a lot of wrong or misleading information as well. Not trying to be argumentative, just seeking truth.

I am sorry, I meant on someone else's campus.  

You can ask Pitchingfan what I meant. We had this discussion a while back.  I don't agree with his claims and that's why I asked did he mean HS or college.

Sure.  But it's a fact that Showball advertises that it has all head coaches at its showcases, that includes Ivy League, Patriot League, Davidson, Georgetown, Richmond, Saint Louis, Wofford, Penn State, etc. etc.  You can look them up on their website.  So the question is, are those coaches being paid by Showball?  I don't know the answer, I'm asking.

Don’t know when Stanford updated its website but all residential summer camps at Stanford have been canceled for 2020.  

@anotherparent posted:

Sure.  But it's a fact that Showball advertises that it has all head coaches at its showcases, that includes Ivy League, Patriot League, Davidson, Georgetown, Richmond, Saint Louis, Wofford, Penn State, etc. etc.  You can look them up on their website.  So the question is, are those coaches being paid by Showball?  I don't know the answer, I'm asking.

Head Coach Academic is advertising HC in attendance.  I don't know the answer as I stated above.  I do know that if it were me, I would want a list of who was attending.  They cater to a different type of student and coach as well as D2, D3, NAIA. 

Sure, and Showball does give a very precise list for each showcase, on their webpage, of exactly which HCs will be there.  I know they cater to different students, but these are D1 head coaches, so they must be following D1 rules.  This whole thing came up because someone said that showcases pay coaches to be there.  There are lots and lots of showcases, not all high academic, (see, at random, Best in the US Showcases) that advertise schools who are in attendance, and provide the names of the coaches.  So the question was, are they paying all these coaches?  some of them?  none of them?

I don't know the inner workings of this specific event, but I can't see how Showball can guarantee the coaches attend unless there is some extra incentive for them to be there. Maybe they pay their camp organization which then helps fund the unpaid staff? However they are doing it can't be against the rules, otherwise you wouldn't have 50 head coaches all risking violations for the same event. 

@anotherparent posted:

Sure, and Showball does give a very precise list for each showcase, on their webpage, of exactly which HCs will be there.  I know they cater to different students, but these are D1 head coaches, so they must be following D1 rules.  This whole thing came up because someone said that showcases pay coaches to be there.  There are lots and lots of showcases, not all high academic, (see, at random, Best in the US Showcases) that advertise schools who are in attendance, and provide the names of the coaches.  So the question was, are they paying all these coaches?  some of them?  none of them?

IVY League and HA schools have their own set of rules.  But I sincerely believe the D1 PAID coaches including Head Coaches do not get paid.  

You are correct,  the statement made was that showcases pay coaches to be there. I did ask what events and who the coaches were, HS, college but did receive a response to my question.  

It was Pitchingfan who made that statement so you might want to ask for clarification.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

I don't know the inner workings of this specific event, but I can't see how Showball can guarantee the coaches attend unless there is some extra incentive for them to be there. Maybe they pay their camp organization which then helps fund the unpaid staff? However they are doing it can't be against the rules, otherwise you wouldn't have 50 head coaches all risking violations for the same event. 

Wouldn't  the incentive be to get to see and observe recruits for their program?  

I am sure they get paid. I doubt they do this just to see recruits. They all hold their own camps where they take in money and have the opportunity to see players. For Showball to get as many coaches as they do, there has to be some incentive. All eight Ivy HC's are at numerous Showball events in a given year. Some Ivy HC's attend the Stanford camp as well.

This is why I mentioned Showball on this thread. I was recommending Showball over HF because ONLY head coaches attend. I think some folks on here think that Showball just says it's a HC Academic Camp and maybe a few will show up. That's not true at all. Showball means HC are attending; that's their business model. I just checked their web site and see there are just two non-HC camps this year: the West Coast World Series Camp and the Super Mega Camp). And there are 8 Head Coach Academic Camps for 2020 (of course subject to COVID changes I'm sure). All the Ivy HC's will be attending all of the HC Academic Camps. Like they have in previous years. I doubt they do this for free. Now is it possible their non-school business gets the payment and they turn around and pay their assistants from that pot? I'm sure that's very possible. But I doubt it...

I don't mean to sound like a Showball fanatic or spokesperson but they did me a huge favor last year and I really appreciate them for it. And I chose their model because it is just what my son needed at the time. So if you think those are the coaches that need to see your son then I highly recommend their camp. Otherwise you can try to hit all of the individual camps those schools hold on their own.