Hey I'm trying to find out what is the most efficient swing path and how MLB hitters use their swing path to hit well. I've seen some guys swinging down, swinging to the level, and swinging uppercut. What would be a good swing path?
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quote:Originally posted by vertigo_911:
Hey I'm trying to find out what is the most efficient swing path and how MLB hitters use their swing path to hit well. I've seen some guys swinging down, swinging to the level, and swinging uppercut. What would be a good swing path?
A slight upswing is the best path unless you have outstanding speed and little or no power. IMO
A lot (I've been told) depends on strength... which can be seen (not necessarily perfectly) by body size and just the muscles.
I being a smaller guy, have always been told to swing down until the point of contact (not drastic) and then extend through the ball. When done properly, this creates back spin and causes the ball to rise as it goes further. I'm not saying this is absolutely the only way. I'm interested to read further posts.
I being a smaller guy, have always been told to swing down until the point of contact (not drastic) and then extend through the ball. When done properly, this creates back spin and causes the ball to rise as it goes further. I'm not saying this is absolutely the only way. I'm interested to read further posts.
Think about it.....
Would the swing path be the same for a high pitch as a low pitch?
Would the swing path be the same for a high pitch as a low pitch?
Here you're probably gonna "swing on the plane of the pitch." Rotational
quote:Originally posted by Roll-it-up:
Think about it.....
Would the swing path be the same for a high pitch as a low pitch?
If you are swinging down it will be. Not in the same lane, but the direction will be.
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
A lot (I've been told) depends on strength... which can be seen (not necessarily perfectly) by body size and just the muscles.
I being a smaller guy, have always been told to swing down until the point of contact (not drastic) and then extend through the ball. When done properly, this creates back spin and causes the ball to rise as it goes further. I'm not saying this is absolutely the only way. I'm interested to read further posts.
If, you can get to a slight downward swing, get the path of the ball and the path of the sweetspot to the exact correct spot, while being in perfect position with your body, and have arms like tree trunks, yes, this will work. But, if you look at video clips of most Major League hitters from the side, you will see the slight up-swing I described.
Any path but this...
This is a TOTALLY incorrect swing path and yet the PCR and PCRW swings are built around it.
The problem....many....but the lead elbow up in the plane as part of the "connection" to shoulder turn as the power source is minor league....low level....a sure cause of turning one into a s o c c e r player. This is what I would call a "mostly" horizontal swing plane.
This...
...is the proper swing plane....what I would call "diagonal".
You can swing up to the ball from a mostly horizontal plane or you can swing up to the ball from diagonal plane. Only one of the two choices is high level.
The diagonal plane allows early batspeed and high adjustability because it's radius is very short....it's the hands. The fulcrum is between the hands. The mostly horizontal plane is slow developing, forces an early commitment and demands the spine be the fulcrum of rotation, meaning a LONG radius swing. The arms are part and parcel of the power source in the mostly horizontal swing path. That is THE kiss of death.
The mostly horizontal swing plane IS the cause of bat drag.....the seen and unseen bat drag. Even if your rear elbow is not leading the rear hand....if you are swinging in the mostly horizontal swing plane you are dragging the bat.
It must be the hips and the hands, not the arms. You must get the lead elbow down out of the swing plane.
This is a TOTALLY incorrect swing path and yet the PCR and PCRW swings are built around it.
The problem....many....but the lead elbow up in the plane as part of the "connection" to shoulder turn as the power source is minor league....low level....a sure cause of turning one into a s o c c e r player. This is what I would call a "mostly" horizontal swing plane.
This...
...is the proper swing plane....what I would call "diagonal".
You can swing up to the ball from a mostly horizontal plane or you can swing up to the ball from diagonal plane. Only one of the two choices is high level.
The diagonal plane allows early batspeed and high adjustability because it's radius is very short....it's the hands. The fulcrum is between the hands. The mostly horizontal plane is slow developing, forces an early commitment and demands the spine be the fulcrum of rotation, meaning a LONG radius swing. The arms are part and parcel of the power source in the mostly horizontal swing path. That is THE kiss of death.
The mostly horizontal swing plane IS the cause of bat drag.....the seen and unseen bat drag. Even if your rear elbow is not leading the rear hand....if you are swinging in the mostly horizontal swing plane you are dragging the bat.
It must be the hips and the hands, not the arms. You must get the lead elbow down out of the swing plane.
Chameleon,
Of all the posts that you have entered on this site, this post best communicates the hitting philosophy and mechanics you have been advocating for so long. I am in 100% agreement with you. Hands and hips equal bat speed and bat control.
Nice to see a good post on hitting again, its been awhile!
Of all the posts that you have entered on this site, this post best communicates the hitting philosophy and mechanics you have been advocating for so long. I am in 100% agreement with you. Hands and hips equal bat speed and bat control.
Nice to see a good post on hitting again, its been awhile!
I think what Chameleon is saying is good is what I (attempt to) do. My angle going "down" towards the ball is not drastic. I just focus on not dropping my hands and then finishing with good (level-not very tilted) extention. As long as I do those 2 things, I usually have a pretty good swing that feels comfortable.
So is it basically Lau-ism swing path such as 'pulling the knob to the ball', or is it just another way to use the hand to make a diagonal path? Can someone explain it? Thanks
The important distinction between what Chameleon teaches and Charlie Lau is Chameleon (I believe) believes in keeping your weight back and exploding with hands and hips linked for power. Lau is more linear and hitting off the front foot. Both are distinctly different than pure rotational.
quote:Originally posted by vertigo_911:
So is it basically Lau-ism swing path such as 'pulling the knob to the ball', or is it just another way to use the hand to make a diagonal path? Can someone explain it? Thanks
Although I agree with "knob to the ball", I do not believe in pulling the knob to the ball. I, like Tony Gwynn, believe in trying to hit the ball with the knob of the bat in the beginning of taking your hands to the ball. Meaning, I don't believe you can take your top hand to the ball first or even both at the same time, if you are trying to get your hands to contact position too early. That, IMO, is what creates a long swing. The top hand has to fire late.
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
..........................................
The fulcrum is between the hands.
.....................................................
It must be the hips and the hands, not the arms..............................
For several years - Chameleon (and his many different ids) argued against the importance of the hands in the swing process. And I am sure many people may have actually given that nonsense credence.
In every case - his defense was that all those that suggested that the hands (and the wrists) were an integral part of the swing process - were clueless.
And for all of those years many of us here told him how terribly wrong he was - and how bad his advice was - and how it hurt anyone willing to believe it.
NOW - Chameleon believes the hands are an integral part of the swing process. NOW - the hands are important.
I find it all just very very sad - and I hope that new members will do everything they can to find out as much as they can about anyone - giving advice about any subject - before they act on any of the "advice" dispensed on the internet.
Just very sad to watch this continue to play out. IMO.
I fail to see much of a difference in the two examples demonstrated by Chameleon's examples. That "lead elbow" isn't that different. Of course one is a animation and the other is live. Probably some difference there. Again, video is worthwhile if you take the time to view it. However, Chameleon has often used the same video ie. video of Bonds to argue two vastly different theories.
Its, you are correct in your assertion of Chameleon. The following is a quote Chameleon (As Teacherman) once put on the public portion of a private site. At the time, I was doing my best to “catch up” on PCR. Certainly this quote in that conversation was the train of thought Chameleon argued/supported at that time. I don't think it would be that difficult to find various members of the internet community who have video of Chameleon attempting to demonstrate his support of various conflicting philosophies. I will work on that.
…"look Doug is old school and thinks the hands and arms power the swing, and you are not going to convince him otherwise so leave it alone .....as long as he does not come on this website and try to attribute to the hands what can only be done by other body parts I don’t care…. "
The only way to discover the swing process is by trial and error and by “developing within their body a better "kinesthetic sense.” (This is a paraphrase of statements contained on the aforementioned site by that site’s owner.)
vertigo__911, you are going to find several theories out there. Reading this site or others like it will never take the place of getting out there and taking some swings. To be sure, members on this site, including myself, are more than willing to let you know which theories they believe best fit the bill. If your interesting in which theory I support, pm me.
Take care.
Its, you are correct in your assertion of Chameleon. The following is a quote Chameleon (As Teacherman) once put on the public portion of a private site. At the time, I was doing my best to “catch up” on PCR. Certainly this quote in that conversation was the train of thought Chameleon argued/supported at that time. I don't think it would be that difficult to find various members of the internet community who have video of Chameleon attempting to demonstrate his support of various conflicting philosophies. I will work on that.
…"look Doug is old school and thinks the hands and arms power the swing, and you are not going to convince him otherwise so leave it alone .....as long as he does not come on this website and try to attribute to the hands what can only be done by other body parts I don’t care…. "
The only way to discover the swing process is by trial and error and by “developing within their body a better "kinesthetic sense.” (This is a paraphrase of statements contained on the aforementioned site by that site’s owner.)
vertigo__911, you are going to find several theories out there. Reading this site or others like it will never take the place of getting out there and taking some swings. To be sure, members on this site, including myself, are more than willing to let you know which theories they believe best fit the bill. If your interesting in which theory I support, pm me.
Take care.
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
That "lead elbow" isn't that different.
The difference in the two lead elbows, where they are positioned and how they work, is HUGE.
When you "get it" you'll convert to the truth just like I did.
In a high level swing there is no "tug" on the lead arm/elbow by the rotating shoulders to pull the bat through the zone in the rotational plane of the shoulders. Relying on that to power the swing IS the cause of bat drag. It is very slow developing and requires an early start.
As the hands turn the barrel the lead elbow works up. As the hips rotate the upper torso turns and gives the elbow the "appearance" of what you and the others are fooled by.
While the "look" of the two moves are very similar on video, how they are produced is vastly different. And, each move results in a different swing plane.....one high level the other not.
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
When you "get it" you'll convert to the truth just like I did.
This was part of this anonymous cyber troll's response to Coach B25.
Nice. LOL
CoachB25 is a real coach - with a real history - and real insights into the game.
But Chameleon - the cyber entity of multiple ids - continues to spew absolute contradictory garbage delivered in condescending and insulting ways.
It used to be just funny. But it is getting so very very old.
I hope all of the folks who read these posts understand them for what they are.
Pure cyber garbage from an anonymous cyber troll. Year after year after year.
IMO.
Chameleon - (and all of your prior anonymous cyber ids)
Talk to me about the hands and the swing.
Talk to me baby!
LOL
Talk to me about the hands and the swing.
Talk to me baby!
LOL
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
Any path but this...
This is a TOTALLY incorrect swing path and yet the PCR and PCRW swings are built around it.
Chameleon,
Take a deep breath dude.
That is a cyber animated skeleton.
I dont know any skeletons that have ever played a single game of baseball.
On this planet anyway. LOL
Chameleon,
Where did you go?
Talk to us about the hands.
Cyber-Enlighten us - please.
LOL
Where did you go?
Talk to us about the hands.
Cyber-Enlighten us - please.
LOL
Its, thanks for the kind words. We've had some success but I'd be the first to admit that even after such a long career that I'm still learning. I hope I never stop. This journey of trying to understand this great game is so much fun. I'm sure you understand that as well.
It's, I'll post my observations on those hands. I once created a list of "Qualities of an Outstanding Hitter." I posted portions of said list on this site as well as submitted that list to some posters. Donny was very kind and took a look. He sent back a critique which, while I didn't agree with all of it, I did value his time and effort. One portion of that list states, "Hands first. Hand last." To be sure I was attacked by the then Teacherman. What I meant by that statement is that something has to bring those hands into what I believe is connection with the shoulder area. In my opinion, good hitters all get to that point. I now believe that that is the creation of tension. We discuss keeping the hands loose but there comes a point where you have to put tension in those hands. Without getting into too much detail, that tension also creates a "battle" between the top and bottom hand. The perception by some is a cocking action. I don't believe it has to be that drastic. I certainly don't believe that it has to be as dramatic as what some are calling a "two plane swing." The anamation Chameleon presents is a swing in one plane. That plane would change with the location of the pitch. The last two examples Chameleon presented are pitches in different locations. Therefore, those two swings, while similar are not exact. That is the problem with any one exact statement on any body part. The trick then is to allow the body to use it's kenetic chain efficiently. Connection is maintained as long as possible but there comes a point where it dissapates into what is described in various way but what I believe most accurately is described as "coming off of the merry go round." If you've ever been thrown off of one, you understand the analogy. Take a look at Ortiz:
Here's Glauss:
I think these pictures are consistent with what I believe. They are not inconsistent with that anamation other than an anamation can not exactly duplicate a swing. JMHO!
It's, I'll post my observations on those hands. I once created a list of "Qualities of an Outstanding Hitter." I posted portions of said list on this site as well as submitted that list to some posters. Donny was very kind and took a look. He sent back a critique which, while I didn't agree with all of it, I did value his time and effort. One portion of that list states, "Hands first. Hand last." To be sure I was attacked by the then Teacherman. What I meant by that statement is that something has to bring those hands into what I believe is connection with the shoulder area. In my opinion, good hitters all get to that point. I now believe that that is the creation of tension. We discuss keeping the hands loose but there comes a point where you have to put tension in those hands. Without getting into too much detail, that tension also creates a "battle" between the top and bottom hand. The perception by some is a cocking action. I don't believe it has to be that drastic. I certainly don't believe that it has to be as dramatic as what some are calling a "two plane swing." The anamation Chameleon presents is a swing in one plane. That plane would change with the location of the pitch. The last two examples Chameleon presented are pitches in different locations. Therefore, those two swings, while similar are not exact. That is the problem with any one exact statement on any body part. The trick then is to allow the body to use it's kenetic chain efficiently. Connection is maintained as long as possible but there comes a point where it dissapates into what is described in various way but what I believe most accurately is described as "coming off of the merry go round." If you've ever been thrown off of one, you understand the analogy. Take a look at Ortiz:
Here's Glauss:
I think these pictures are consistent with what I believe. They are not inconsistent with that anamation other than an anamation can not exactly duplicate a swing. JMHO!
Is this clip doctoring to prove the point?
The part of the swing that illustrates the difference between the animation and Ortiz is not shown in your clips.
Why?
The part of the swing that illustrates the difference between the animation and Ortiz is not shown in your clips.
Why?
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
We discuss keeping the hands loose but there comes a point where you have to put tension in those hands.
Yup.
And one thing is for sure - and also totally contrary to the nonsense spewed on this site for years by Chameleon - (and his multitude of anonymous ids)
The hands are NEVER just along for the ride.
NEVER!
Unless the ride is a bus to Palookaville.
Good stuff Coach B. IMO.
Without getting technical "because Im not smart enough to get technical" the best swing path depends on the location of the pitch. The best swing is a swing that gets the barrell of the bat to the ball the quickest at the same time allowing you to let the ball get deep in the zone.
A swing clip of a ball down in the zone is going to show a different swing path that a clip of a ball up in the zone. Kids that take the same swing path to every pitch regardless of location have a "one pitch - one location swing" and they are only going to sucessfull if the pitch is in that one spot.
The ability to make adjustments with the swing depending on location and movement are essential imo. The better the swing the longer you can see the ball before having to swing.
What works for you? Some may have sucess with a flat swing. Some will have sucess with a slight uppercut swing. Some will have sucess with a slight downward swing finishing through the zone high. Etc etc. Hitting is not an exact science. There is no one size fits all for hitting just like pitching. Those that try to cooker cutter kids and feel they have all the answers only show me they have no clue at all.
A swing clip of a ball down in the zone is going to show a different swing path that a clip of a ball up in the zone. Kids that take the same swing path to every pitch regardless of location have a "one pitch - one location swing" and they are only going to sucessfull if the pitch is in that one spot.
The ability to make adjustments with the swing depending on location and movement are essential imo. The better the swing the longer you can see the ball before having to swing.
What works for you? Some may have sucess with a flat swing. Some will have sucess with a slight uppercut swing. Some will have sucess with a slight downward swing finishing through the zone high. Etc etc. Hitting is not an exact science. There is no one size fits all for hitting just like pitching. Those that try to cooker cutter kids and feel they have all the answers only show me they have no clue at all.
quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
Hitting is not an exact science. There is no one size fits all for hitting just like pitching. Those that try to cooker cutter kids and feel they have all the answers only show me they have no clue at all.
This one paragraph piece of advice from Coach May - says more than all of the animated skeletons - and YouTube clips - and stupid cyber hitting anonymous lab theories combined - will ever say.
IMO.
I'm just throwing this out there, but the number 1 biggest problem I notice in kids my age (upper teen) is the dropping of the hands. Would you all agree? Obviously there are tons of things that can go wrong... which is why we can all sit here and discuss tons of theories. But as a pitcher and observer, I see tons of kids who drop their hands immediately... 90% of the time resulting in rolling over.
quote:You can swing up to the ball from a mostly horizontal plane or you can swing up to the ball from diagonal plane. Only one of the two choices is high level.
DTiger,
I am sure we all see different players - in different situations - and so we see lots of different things.
The biggest problem that I happen to see - more and more of late - is the "no load" swing. I believe it is a by- product of the aluminum bat.
When you watch the fellas go from aluminum to wood - and you see the "no load" swing - you can expect a game full of dribblers and broken bats.
I am sure we all see different players - in different situations - and so we see lots of different things.
The biggest problem that I happen to see - more and more of late - is the "no load" swing. I believe it is a by- product of the aluminum bat.
When you watch the fellas go from aluminum to wood - and you see the "no load" swing - you can expect a game full of dribblers and broken bats.
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
The important distinction between what Chameleon teaches and Charlie Lau is Chameleon (I believe) believes in keeping your weight back and exploding with hands and hips linked for power. Lau is more linear and hitting off the front foot. Both are distinctly different than pure rotational.
For the hips to be used properly (max torque) they have to go first. If your hands and hips go at the same time, you are losing speed and power.
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
DTiger,
I am sure we all see different players - in different situations - and so we see lots of different things.
The biggest problem that I happen to see - more and more of late - is the "no load" swing. I believe it is a by- product of the aluminum bat.
When you watch the fellas go from aluminum to wood - and you see the "no load" swing - you can expect a game full of dribblers and broken bats.
I agree with this totally! To me, "no load" comes from people being taught to hit with their hands only. If you don't feel a stretch on the back of your front shoulder, you are not loading properly. You have to hide your hands from the pitcher.
If the hips go first then they will drag the hands. Logically it makes no sense that linking the hips and hands would not be the quickest and most explosive. The coordination of the hands and the hips at contact results in the least bleed of power. If they are not working together then one is dragging the other along resulting in slower bat speed.
I must say I don't even look for it that often. I will start! I mean, everything I've ever been taught has been a slight, steady (not wanting to change the head too much) load.
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
If the hips go first then they will drag the hands. Logically it makes no sense that linking the hips and hands would not be the quickest and most explosive. The coordination of the hands and the hips at contact results in the least bleed of power. If they are not working together then one is dragging the other along resulting in slower bat speed.
The hips pull the upper body through, the back elbow tucks, then the top hand fires. The hips go one way and the hands go the other initially, that's what creates the torque/rubberband effect.
Loading of the hands during weight shift along with momentary segmentation between lower/upper body when the hips fire creates the X-factor.
quote:Originally posted by Dtiger:
I'm just throwing this out there, but the number 1 biggest problem I notice in kids my age (upper teen) is the dropping of the hands. Would you all agree? Obviously there are tons of things that can go wrong... which is why we can all sit here and discuss tons of theories. But as a pitcher and observer, I see tons of kids who drop their hands immediately... 90% of the time resulting in rolling over.
By "dropping their hands" do you mean a premature laying of the bat off? I observe this frequently, much like laying the golf club off at the start of the downward portion of the golf swing. Results are much the same, rolling over with resulting grounders to the left (if right handed) and pop-ups or high flys to the right.
quote:Originally posted by NYdad:
Loading of the hands during weight shift along with momentary segmentation between lower/upper body when the hips fire creates the X-factor.
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?
quote:Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?
Wasn't necessarily responding to your post, just a general comment on my part as to what generates that torque/rubberband effect (aka X-factor)
quote:The hips pull the upper body through
Don't agree with your "pull" theory (since you've asked)
For several years - Chameleon (and his many different ids) argued against the importance of the hands in the swing process. And I am sure many people may have actually given that nonsense credence.
In every case - his defense was that all those that suggested that the hands (and the wrists) were an integral part of the swing process - were clueless.
And for all of those years many of us here told him how terribly wrong he was - and how bad his advice was - and how it hurt anyone willing to believe it.
NOW - Chameleon believes the hands are an integral part of the swing process. NOW - the hands are important.
I find it all just very very sad - and I hope that new members will do everything they can to find out as much as they can about anyone - giving advice about any subject - before they act on any of the "advice" dispensed on the internet.
Just very sad to watch this continue to play out. IMO.
You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball, and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. ~Jim Bouton, Ball Four, 1970
Maybe the other way failed to improve his kid? not sad really ,,just wrong before and learning new.
In every case - his defense was that all those that suggested that the hands (and the wrists) were an integral part of the swing process - were clueless.
And for all of those years many of us here told him how terribly wrong he was - and how bad his advice was - and how it hurt anyone willing to believe it.
NOW - Chameleon believes the hands are an integral part of the swing process. NOW - the hands are important.
I find it all just very very sad - and I hope that new members will do everything they can to find out as much as they can about anyone - giving advice about any subject - before they act on any of the "advice" dispensed on the internet.
Just very sad to watch this continue to play out. IMO.
You spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball, and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time. ~Jim Bouton, Ball Four, 1970
Maybe the other way failed to improve his kid? not sad really ,,just wrong before and learning new.
quote:Originally posted by wogdoggy:
Maybe the other way failed to improve his kid? not sad really ,,just wrong before and learning new.
Wogdoggy, I believe Its is referring to the intensity of the attacks on those posters and the frequency of said attacks. He is also referring to the various identities created so that the attacker could continue those attacks. Linear, Rshard, Teacherman, Joebad, ... One could fill up books with numerous website quotes all eminating from this one individual. I will say and have always said that this individual had done so, in part, because of his desire to improve his son. However, that doesn't justify the manner these posts were presented.
Regarding any philosophy, one needs to be sure that they totally understand said philosophy before either totally supporting or totally degrading that philosophy. For example I might say, while coaching basketball, put your arm in a 90 degree bend, put your index finger on the seam of the ball just below the valve stem and then, simply put your shooting hand in the cookie jar. I'm sure thousands of critics would then jump on this since I didn't cover the knee bend, the off hand, ... However, my basic tenent is correct. With some, their need to be the expert is so encompansing of who they are that they will go to any length to be known as the expert. Again, I believe that is the premise behind Its post. However, if I have misinterpreted what Itsinthegame intended, Its please say so.
Wogdoggy, since I know you frequent other sites, this person has created his own website and so, I believe for a fee, you can join it and findout what he is all about. BTW, I thought that that site was going to be free and no one would ever be thrown off of it. Does that still hold true?
Take care.
I am new here so take this for what it is worth.
Here is a great clip of one the greatest hitter ever.
http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/Animation/williams.bat.html
His hands play a huge role in his succes but the key is the rotation.
Now I am not a coach,other than coaching my son but it is hard to argue with someone like Ted Williams on hitting.
To answer the posters question,the swing path in the video seems to be a pretty good one.Swing on the same path as the ball and finish high.
Here is a great clip of one the greatest hitter ever.
http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~stephan/Animation/williams.bat.html
His hands play a huge role in his succes but the key is the rotation.
Now I am not a coach,other than coaching my son but it is hard to argue with someone like Ted Williams on hitting.
To answer the posters question,the swing path in the video seems to be a pretty good one.Swing on the same path as the ball and finish high.
