What to do about H.S. coach who allows players to drink, chew and smoke?

Welcome to the site.  I have some thoughts but can you first help connect a few of the dots?  Title is "HS coach allows players to drink, chew and smoke".  I see where a player is suspended and there is punishment being doled out at practice.  Can you elaborate on the extent coach is allowing these things?  Also, what year is son and is it a private or public school?  Is he with a good travel/club program?  Outside of the issues at hand, is the current HS a good fit for son and family?

Cabbagedad has some great questions for follow-up. I would also like to know if the district has a protocol in place for dealing with these types of situations? If so (and I can't imagine a single district without policies), do you know if the policies are being followed or if the people above the coaches know about the incidents? I ask because maybe the coaches are following directions from the Athletic Director (AD) or other person above them. These seem like pretty lax punishments for this type of behavior (around here, its automatic suspension), but maybe it's just the process.

I can feel your frustration in your post. I would be just as frustrated, not only with the punishment but that the kids are still allowed to participate after displaying this type of behavior. If accurate, it sounds like a team culture issue that needs to be addressed from the top down.  

I do have two words of advice. First, don't act out of anger or frustration. Posting here and soliciting advice is a great first step. Second, you may not know the whole truth about the incidents or the punishment. Often what we hear about something is greatly exaggerated or missing key details. It's like that old game of telephone. By the time it reaches you, several important "facts" may have changed.

Good luck!

HI, not a coach, but I have some questions that may help the coach's answer you in a more complete way:

1. Is your problem with the drinking and e-cig stuff that the coach is still letting the players caught play, or that the coach hasn't formerly come out and ban the items?

2. The punishments happening to the entire team with running, burpees, etc is that due the unknown players being at the local establishment or does this also have to do with the drinking and e-cig stuff?

3. Why do you think running and burpees won't make your son a better player by being more physically fit?

4. Wouldn't another school already have a set Spring Squad?  Would a high schooler really want to leave all of his friends because things aren't working out on his baseball team?

grasstains,

Please check your private messages (click on "dialogues" in the upper right).

I like the team culture response.

What is the schools policy on alcohol, drugs, tobacco and extracurricular activity?  Our school have a very defined process on how to deal with things.  There are different approaches depending on the circumstances.  If the student fesses up before the school finds out from the authorities then the punishment is a lot less sever then if the school discovers the problem first.  Also, different penalties for repeat offenders.

Also, you most likely don't know what the actual school penalty was.  Don't listen to what others are saying.  Its unlawful for a school to actually discuss disciplinary action taken against a minor.  There maybe circumstance happening behind the scenes that you don't know about.

All that said, our coaches don't do the punishment.  It happens through the Deans office.  So we don't normally get team punishments for off field antics.

This is most curious.  Most, if not all school districts, have policies that if a student-athlete is suspended from school, he is also suspended from any school related activities including sports.  Unless, by "not baseball" it means he is still active on a travel team.

Son's senior year there was a similar incident at another HS in our district.  A few baseball players were caught "drinking" at their prom which was just before my son's HS team would play them for "Senior Night".  The students caught drinking were suspended from school as well as the team.  I didn't know of these "facts" until after the game.  I had noticed a few of their normal starters were missing (not even in the dugout). Found out after the game what had transpired.

OK, I'm going to make several general observations that may or may not apply to your specific circumstance... 

Kandk touched on one of the points I want to make.  Often, any disciplinary action is tied to administration guidelines.  Ideally, the coaching staff would have the latitude to take necessary actions and the moral compass and willingness to act appropriately with such issues. But the perfect scenario is rarely the case.  Sometimes coaches are hamstrung by guidelines and/or fears from AD/principal/adminstration.  Sometimes coaches are told to let admin handle any off-field disciplinary actions.  Sometimes the coaches just don't do the right thing. Sometimes the whole story is not evident. 

I will say that punishing the team as a whole for such issues is not at all uncommon and can be an effective method, albeit not totally fair to whoever may be innocent of the wrongdoings.  It can help put more pressure on the offenders to take responsibility.  And, if it has any impact, it can draw the team closer.  I am not making excuses for your son's coach.  He very well may be handling the situation poorly.  Impossible to know without all the info.  Sometimes, it is not realistic to expect coaches to keep tabs on players actions away from the field.  Some coaches are great at doing so and quick to act when something comes up (or better yet, great at discouraging those things before they happen).  But some coaches have their hands full just trying to deal with things correctly when they have the kids for three hours every day.  Doesn't mean they are bad coaches.

Unfortunately, probably most HS varsity programs have at least a few kids who drink and party.  Same in college.  So, if your son wishes to continue playing beyond HS, he will probably need to learn to co-exist with these teammates.  Fortunately, there is usually a common bond that is the desire to play good, winning baseball.  Good for him that he has made his own better decisions with some of those things. 

Does winning play a role in the decisions?  It usually does to one extent or another.  But team rules and behavior expectations should be upheld, regardless.  I'm curious to know if the HC put anything out in this regard. 

Regarding changing HS's, this is a big decision and there is much that should be considered.  There are several posts here on HSBBW on the topic that you can search and read through. 

Keep in mind that most recruiting interest will not occur via HS games but rather through playing with the right travel teams at the right events and/or via key showcases.  So, going into this junior/senior summer, it becomes very important that your son has a solid plan in place quickly for his recruiting efforts.

Thank you for the response, this is what I was looking for through the eyes of a coach. Great thoughts and advise.

There is a federal law against the use of any tobacco products on public school grounds.  That includes both smoking and chewing.  So, it is a federal violation.  When I changed schools and came to the one I am now, I had 2 or 3 starters suspended for alcohol use.  As a coach, I didn't have a say in that one way or another.  I did have a say in playing time after the suspension.  So, I added a couple of games but I made sure that the AD supported my action.  The school board for your school has adopted a policy and so, make sure you are aware of what that policy says.  Coaches who ignore school board policy typically don't last long. 

I missed the question but here is my advice.

This dilemma is not unusual, as cabbagedad says, as your son moves forward and gets older these things are going to happen.  Transferring will not make this issue ever go away, it is basically everywhere.

Sit down with your son and have a talk about the dangers of underage drinking, and truat that he will always remember that conversation, because at one point, mark my works he is going to drink or even experiment with drugs.Lets not all be so naive that we think that our children will never drink, etc.

One thing, keep in mind that the school administration and the coach are not the PARENTS.  Education begins at home.

Sounds to me like these boys are well on their way to becoming tremendous NASCAR fans. 

Great post TPM. You can't police the team. As much as you would like to think you do, you will never know the entire story. As much as you would like to, you will never know the entire story. The easy answer is to say "The coach should kick these kids off the team and make sure nothing like this is going on ever again." It's never that easy. Talk to your son and tell him he is going to have to deal with the mess that others create many times in his life. Tell him to make sure he stays away from this type of stuff and to simply stay out of the drama. I have seen good friends end up life long enemy's over stuff like this. Someone say's something about someone's son based on what they have heard or someone has told someone else. It can get very ugly. If the coach is aware that this type of stuff is going on and avoiding it then sooner or later he will pay the price. We don't know the whole story. You don't either. These type of situations can get very ugly in a hurry. Remember those kids mentioned in the post have parents that love their children as well. Be careful. And like TPM said talk to your son.

If I had knowledge of something like this I would investigate it. If I could prove it I would deal with those individuals as individuals. If I had rumors I would talk to the entire team. Then I would pull those that I had heard the rumors about and talk to them individually. But you have to be very careful. A player goes home and say's I called him in because he heard such and such. The parent comes to the school and wants to know who I heard it from. The parents start talking and accuse a certain player or player and their parents of spreading lies about their son or their son's. You can see how this can become a firestorm.

I am not saying that a parent should not be concerned. I am saying a parent should should start by making sure they are communicating properly with their child. They should make sure their son is staying out of the "talking game" and you should as well. If you have fact's and your son has fact's that can be proven then fine. But it never ends well that is for sure. The coach is responsible for addressing the concerns he has knowledge of or are brought to his attention. But it is rarely black and white.

I'm going to go a little controversial.  If it isn't happening in the dugout and doesn't affect the kids playing ability, it is really none of the coach's business.  We have become a society that now expects schools to not only teach, but to be police and parents as well.

I agree.

I hear what your saying, believe me, my wife is a school administrator and has to deal with parents all day long.  There are times she tells me what she's dealing with and my first reaction is, "can't you just tell them to put their big boy pants on and deal with it parent to parent".  But unfortunately times have changed as well as the rules.  Here in IL the govt keep legislating things and making the schools the cops and punishers.  Even if it happens outside the school the school is now responsible for what students are doing online.  

Anyway, on to my point.  I come from an old school football background so the coach punishing the entire team for the discretions of a few doesn't really bother me.  When I played we were expected to be off field leaders as well.  If we messed that up (even outside of school) we were punished.  I can remember many a time we spent most of the practice bear crawling and running due to our attendance at a party the night before.  

I think the bigger issue in this is the coach allowing the players to play if they are suspended from school.  Most states/schools have a policy that if you are suspended you can not participate in extra-curlicular activities.  To me this points to a bigger problem with the institution itself. They are sending the wrong message by allowing this to happen. 

As a High School coach I feel that there is much more to my job than just to teach kids how to play a game. When I take your kid on my team I promise you I am going to treat him just like he was mine. I am going to give him my very best and demand his very best. I feel the same things that make you successful in baseball will make you sucessfull in life. Hard work, dedication, personal responsibility, sacrifice, team work, loyalty, all play a big part in all of this. Be on time for practice. Be on time for your job. Work hard everyday to be your best at baseball. Work hard everyday to be your best at your job. Work hard to be the best friend, husband, father you can be. And it goes on and on.

Now I could avoid talking to my players about drugs, alcohol, etc. I could just focus on hitting a breaking pitch and fielding a ground ball. But that won't matter in a few years. Those life lesson's will. It's an opportunity to not only coach them in a game but to use the game to coach them in life. When I get a 14 year old freshman many times they have never shaved. Never had a girlfriend. Never driven a car. They are under tremendous peer pressure. Those influences in that dugout are huge. They want to fit in. They want to be part of the team. I want to make sure that the type of 18 year old man they are being influenced by is the type I would want my own 14 year old son hanging with.

Many of the players I coached didn't have parents like the one's on this site. I was the only person that took the time to talk to them about relationships, drinking, peer pressrue, drugs, etc. I was the one that they listened to because I was the only one that ever took the time to care. So my job is not to just teach a game. My job is to teach the game of life through a game called baseball. Some will say I dont need a coach to do those things I am his parent.  I laugh at that. They will listen to me before they will hear a thing you say. Just like my own son's. It's coming from you. But let it come from the coach and its different. Many times.

I understood that I would have a tremendous influence either negative or positive in my players life. Because all of my coaches did in mine. I wanted that influence to be a positive one. I wanted to give them things that would last past the baseball years. But would also make them a better team. So I talked to them about one bad decision impacting the rest of their life and someone else's. I told them that they could make whatever choice they wanted to make but they couldn't choose the consequences of that choice.

I don't think you can lead young men and help them be the best they can be if they don't first understand you care more about them as a person than you do for what they can do for you. I had players live with me who's parents were drug addicts and drunks because they were evicted from their home and the kid was homeless. I spent many a night talking to kids about bad choices and tough situations. Maybe I cared too much I don't know.

What I do know is if I saved one kid, stopped on bad choice, gave one kid a tool that could help him in life it was all worth it. If coaching HS was all about W's and L's it wouldn't have been worth my time. Nope it's more than that to me. How do you have a kid from 14 to 18 or 19, and not care more about him as a person than if he can win a game for you? If you can you need to get out of coaching. But that's just my opinion.

I don't believe in being a Cop Coach. I don't believe in chasing down rumors. I believe in building a relationship with your players that makes them know they have someone they can come to. Someone who cares. Someone who will stick a boot up that a__ if needed to straighten them out. And at the same time someone who will come get them, fight for them and always be there for them.

I love everyone of my boys. They know I didn't play games about this stuff. They didn't want to let me down. They knew I was there for them no matter what. I never wanted to let them down. We held each other up. We were family and always will be. You can't coach a kid to leave his skin on the field, his blood on the base path's and not care enough about him as a person to be his life coach as well. JMHO

It is the schools team, the schools employee, and the schools property...therefor the schools rules about behavior should apply. And you don't reward children for bad behavior by letting them play their favorite game. 

The simple fact is that if you are a full time working parent it is likely that these teachers and coaches and administrators are spending more time Monday-Friday with your kids than you are.  While you can and should build the foundations of good parenting and proper behavior at home you have to be able to trust that there are rules being enforced at the school level as well. 

I understand your point and where you're coming from. I do. And as a coach there's a big part of me that realizes how much simpler my life could be if I had that attitude. 

BUT.....if you're a coach that cares about your kids, cares about all of your kids, and that cares about right and wrong, you simply can't ignore it. For the sake of the kid involved, the kids not involved, and my own conscience, I feel like it has to be addressed in some manner (speaking in very general terms, I know).

You can't do everything or fix everything, but I get frustrated with kids for having a "that's not my job" attitude sometimes. If you're trying to teach something bigger than baseball, you can't succumb to it as well.

I'm just going to stop replying and assume Coach May is already crafting a better response that sums up my feelings. 

Very well said.

I appreciate what you say, but I am not about to delegate my parental responsibility to the public school system.  Are there good teachers and administrators I would trust?  Of course.  But there are also bad ones -- brainless, mindless wastes of protoplasm.  

I have no problem with coaches talking about making good choices and consequences of actions.  And coach's can have rules.  No problem.  But the more rules you have, the more "enforcement" will be expected.  So as some of the coaches have pointed out, what do you do about the "rumors?"  

I have told the story of my rising sophomore having a life change because he was suddenly exposed to 17 and 18 year old young men that were doing what they do.  It was more than smoking and drinking, there was girls, language, attitude and drugs.

Thinking you can shield your kids from that is Pollyanna thinking.  Also I doubt coach is something like Buttermaker tossing beer from a cooler after practice or games. 

So what does it mean.  If a kid is caught by the coach - he can do nothing more than bench the player or potential kick him off the team if the district allows for that based on the infraction.

Also sooner or later....as all parents discover...kids will do what they are going to do regardless of what you as a parent have taught, preached, screamed for all their life.

All it takes is a ...girl.  Do not be surprised that after two weeks she has as much influence as you think you had after 17 years.  She can and does.  Pray for a good one.

Coach May, can I send my kids to live with you? Seriously, you should write a book.

Where to draw the line?  While I loved all of the things Coach May had to say, I do appreciate the rules that today's coaches must follow as well as expectations of their particular community.  I will admit that in our community any story of a coach housing a student athlete would come under scrutiny and would probably not be viewed as a simple lifeline to the kid. I had a pretty normal childhood and feel that my high school coaches had a huge influence on me as a person.  I do think today's coaches can stretch the rules (just a bit) and help redirect kids at times, but if they stretch too far they run the risk of losing their job and possibly being prohibited from returning to coaching. 

I agree that a parent will likely never know the full facts of any situation whether it's your kid or someone else's.  I expect some level of stupid behavior out of high school kids.  Starting at 14, having never shaved, and ending at 18 with a couple of years behind the wheel and surely having been exposed to some amount of inappropriate behavior, not everyone of them will have the control to tow the line.  I'm hoping the collective community of parents (me and wife), friends, friends' parents, church group, teachers and lastly coaches have given my kid a good start.  If he starts to step over the line and a coach can gently "nudge" him, I will be forever grateful (if I even find out).  Conversely, if the rules governing their ability to "nudge" are just way to punitive, then I can't blame them if they follow the rules to the letter.

Girls......

Prior to my son's senior year, he always broke up with his girlfriend just before baseball season would begin.  Except his senior year.  When he didn't break up with her as in previous years, both my wife and I raised our eyebrows.  Probably helped she was the star pitcher on the softball team - she would eventually commit to a D2 university.

Anyway, the season went well - the baseball team won the district for the 1st time in 25 years and made it to the state tournament (lost in the quarterfinals).  Maybe he shouldn't have dumped the girls in previous years......

I agree with Golfman on this, even if my son was caught drinking or smoking or chewing on school property this is MY problem. Parents working full time is not an excuse to leave parenting to someone else. I would abide by their punishment but I can tell you mine would be a lot worse!

In HS the coach had rules, I have no issue with a coach or administration making rules, and that did include if it got back to him that there was drinking in public because the team represented his colors too. However, these things happen, wait until your son get to HS.  Then there are decisions to make, and sometimes some one who messes up just needs a sit down with a come to jesus or moses lecture.  The coach should not be out to "get you". I think that Coach May covered that.

In HS one of the players had been drinking and slid off the road and hit a tree (palm) and just missed the drivers seat.  Some of the members of the team went to the parents and told them that he needed some straightening out, which they did, because realizing that just messing up his car was bad but he could have been killed. 

I dont think that parents can really grasp what goes on in HS or college until they have someone go through it. I had some issues with both my kids, but I remember that I was a kid in HS once too. Baseball or football or any sport or extra curricular activity isn't going to stop anyone from doing anything in that stage in ones life. 

These are minor issues in HS. Wait until college, or if your son goes onto play proball. I was so happy son was past that stage by the time he got drafted. He had a bunch of coaches watching over him, there is no one in proball to do that.

I do remember my daughter telling me once that she told her younger brother, "if you ever get caught drinking and driving the worst thing isnt going to jail, its facing our mom!

We dont know all of the specifics so it very hard to judge or know exactly what went on, but this is a good opportunity to remind everyone that its important to have all types of discussions with your children, and that should not be just about drinking, driving or drugs.

CM, great post as always!

In our state and county any drinking or drug activities are a real issue that the coaches have to care about.  The case in question was taken up through an appellate court and upheld that "remaining where such activities are occurring after reasonably knowing they were occurring (In this particular case 45 minutes) constitutes reason for the issuance of discipline in accordance with the regulation   

5 b. Students may not use, be in actual or constructive possession of, manufacture, or distribute any controlled dangerous substance, drug paraphernalia, controlled paraphernalia, look-alike drugs, or alcohol, the possession, use, transfer, or sale of which is prohibited by law, at any time, on or off school premises.

In addition: . .  Students in violation of drug/alcohol policies, at anytime, on or off school premises, will be declared ineligible for extracurricular activities. . . 

The legal case was brought in 1999 about a group of 50 student athletes that attended a party at a private residence where alcohol was being consumed.  Police were called and 9 students were arrested for underage drinking.  The other 41 were banned from extracurricular activities,  The 41 students sued and they lost. 

Although I question the fairness of the decision the result has been that student athletes in our county got the message loud and clear.  What was a major problem and a regular occurrence in our student athletic community has not occurred in 15 years.

IMO coaches do need to care about more than wins and losses because these young men will one day be a part of adult society and the life lessons they learned in sports will go a long way to determining what they are able to achieve.  If they learn entitlement they will be lazy, If they learn privilege they will blame others for their failures but if they learn that integrity and hard work matters then you will likely have a person you can be proud of...O.K. patriot music fading out climbing off my soapbox...

As a parent, I completely agree. I plan on parenting the same way as my kids get older.

As a coach, I have to realize that some of these kids have parents that don't give a crap about "parental responsibility," which makes my role all the more important. If all parents wanted to enforce discipline at home the way my father did, my job would be infinitely easier. But the reality is that isn't the reality. 

Who said I was delegating my parental responsibility to the public school system?   I don't even get that? 

I don't delegate my responsibilities to the public school system I willingly give them my children 5 days a week with the expectation that my children are safe and in an environment where they can learn...that is the agreement every parent has with their kids school.  If MY children are affecting the safe and/or learning environment for another child I want them to be disciplined by the school, according to the rules they laid out on day one of school, so as to set an example for other students and trust me when they get home their punishment will be upped from there.

I don't expect the school to parent I expect them to educate, and part of every person's education is that there are consequences for your actions and it sure doesn't involve going on a ball field!

You need to distinguish between "policing" kids and providing them guidance.  Guidance is done on a case by case bases where the adult takes into consideration all of the circumstances and provides advice based on those circumstances.  Coaches are in a unique position to do that. 

Policing is different.  It is making your own sentencing rules.  Kid gets caught underage drinking in the bowling alley parking lot, there are legal and parental consequences.  Why should it be the school's business to provide an additional sentence?  Today it's underage drinking.  Tomorrow it's because I let my kid watch an R rated movie.  Where does it stop?  Are you willing to give up your parental freedom because there are bad parents out there? 

The problem with rules cited by MBBalldad is they are created by gutless wonders.  Zero tolerance.  Every situation is the same.  What about the kids who where at that party waiting for mom & dad to pick them up because they didn't want to be there?  Busted and punished for making the right decision.   

So, if your son was caught drinking or smoking or chewing on school property this is only YOUR problem? 

It's not a problem for the school that many kids just saw a well respected athlete light up?  There won't be any backlash for them to deal with that the popular baseball player drank at school and several outcast kids think hey that might be the way to fit it!

You don't think that is a problem for the school to handle too?  Shouldn't they be setting the example that you may have seen Junior light up but he is now suspended from 5 baseball games because of that and has to write an essay for every class, and he has to do 10 public speaking engagements on the danger of drugs and alcohol across the county...now does that look like it was worth it?

As much as we might like to think we are raising kids who would NEVER do anything like that the fact is it's just as important for the other students to see consequences as it is for the parent to doll out consequences when the kid gets home. 

If it is done at school it is never just the parents problem and allowing the school to dole out a punishment isn't leaving the parenting to someone else.....in my opinion.

This is somewhat off topic and long.  So you're sitting at work.  The phone rings and its the assistant principal who tells you that your kid has been accused and is being disciplined for smoking smarties.  All you hear are the "drug" references.    Your mind immediately thinks "oh no, little Johnny is doing drugs.  I love him but 'm going to kill him."  The hours creep by and you start your internet research, frantically trying to get ahold of your kid to find out what's happening.  An internet search finally reveals what "smoking smarties" actually is - crushing the candy and blowing the sugar out of you mouth "like smoke."  Your next question is -- where did he get the "contraband?"  You race home to see your little Johnny.  After a long discussion you find out that more than a month ago, during a DARE presentation they gave the kids ribbons and packs of smarties candy for participating.  During lunch your kids and several others "smoked" them.  Nobody, teachers included, thought much of it at the time.  But behind the scenes a parent picks up the phone and accuses your kid of doing it.  Your kid is then "questioned" and intimidated by the Assistant Principal into a "confession."  In other words, thinking its silly he tells the truth.  You trust your kid, but want to verify what he told you.  So a call to the Assistant Principal essentially verifies you kid's story.  And now he is be "charged" and "punished" for a "drug crime."  These are some of the people who you are trusting to "enforce" the rules.  It is a true story.  Be careful what you wish for. 

The original post only dealt with kids doing illegal activities on the weekend and not at school.

Sorry....if anyone wants to carry on *cough golfman25* feel free to PM me

I agree.

It's the effect you have on your kids up to about age fourteen that determines how they will act in the future. Once they're in high school and older they have a lot of freedom and outside influences. It's when the lessons of the past from the parents come into play.

If kids grow up seeing their parents drunk on the weekends  and drink and drive don't expect the kid to act any differently. They see your actions as grown up behavior. They want to be grown up. 

All it takes is a ...girl.  Do not be surprised that after two weeks she has as much influence as you think you had after 17 years.  She can and does.  Pray for a good one.

My son was at a party in 7th grade where the the kids were caught drinking. The parents were upstairs. They checked out the party every half hour. The kids figured that out in the first hour. The only reason they were caught is one kid was hungover the next day at home. Her breath reeked. She ratted out the entire party. We got all the kids together along with a DARE officer for another party. 

Most of the kids were grounded for a couple of weeks. One wasn't grounded at all. My son was grounded for three months. I paroled him after two months of good behavior. The kid who wasn't grounded was arrested in 9th grade for being one of the biggest pot dealers in the county. My son barely drank in high school** due to my rules and more importantly getting caught got kids suspended from school activities/athletics for three months. 

** He did plead guilty to some senior week indiscretions after graduation.

After the 7th grade situation I asked my son what the hell he was thinking. Guess whose idea it was to sneak alcohol into the party? The girls. If you want to see a boy lose his mind have a pretty girl telling him what he should do. I've heard the problem ends at about age eighty.

I'm confused.  I am under the impression that coaches today are backing away from character building and molding young men and default to the rule book.  I don't get the impression that they are stepping up and helping "parent" kids.  Go back 20, 30 years and coaches often did coach with a goal of building good character.  I wish more of them still did.

I do not believe the the effect a parent has on a kid ends at 14 and that kid's future actions are guided by his character development up until that point.  There are way too many kids who at 14 were generally on the straight and narrow only to slowly get sidetracked at 15, 16 or later.  I'm not idscounting the importance of the first 14 years, but the presence of a coach with a steady hand can go a long way in keeping kids from straying too far.  

I find it hard to beleive anyone would say that a kid's off the field misbehavior should in no way impact his relationship to the coach and the team.  That is not even the case in pro sports where money usually does the talking.  Good luck to anyone who thinks one or two parents alone will be able to provide al the appropriate life lessons and guidance during a kids first 18 years on the planet.  I contend you need a community.