Where is the Northeast???.. Not on the Road to Omaha

quote:

Originally posted by GoingwiththePitch:
I do question if there is a way to ever truly compete with the south.

Not with the kind of spring we had this year. I .... froze at almost every game I went to. "Nice" days were few and far between, this season.

My question is why don't they do the regionals the same way they do basketball? Why does a university have to host their regional?

Has nothing to do with the weather. It's about attendance, a region that draws more at the gate will get the bid every time.

NCAA baseball tournament is virtually perfect as is. I don't see how any guarantee of a certain number of northern teams is productive. Beyond automatic qualifiers, the tournament should include the best teams regardless of location. Like it or not, the northeast just doesn't currently include very many really good teams (ie good enough to host a regional). Beyond UCONN I'm not sure any teams really had an argument to be a host school.

GWTP,

Agreed, and thank you. I was thinking about this when I saw the draws on Sunday. I'm not for expanding the tournament, but I do think the NCAA needs to try a Northeast host team such as the Big East winner. To answer your question about competing with southern teams....that is going to be very difficult due to early spring weather and northrn teams travelling to play host southern teams. The weather situation is certainly not equitable but nobody said life is fair. I see this as an opportiunity for the NCAA to level that playing field somewhat and let a northeast team host some southern teams, and let the fur fly.


TPM,

How do you know the Northeast will not draw until the NCAA tries it? You have several large cities and many alumni that will be chomping at the bit. Between St Johns, CT, and Seton Hall you could draw a large sustainable crowd....no doubt. Yes, there are some population centers up in the northeast and they do follow baseball. NCAA needs to give them a chance.

AntzDad,

Yes the weather was brutal this year. My son got off of an 8 hour bus ride from upstate NY to central Virginia in early March for their opening series at UVA. He didn't say "hi mom & dad" as he got off the bus.... he said, "so that is what grass looks like".

Last years CT regional drew 1,500 for the championship game. The final game for CT drew 2,200.

The SC regional drew 6,200 for the championship game. The SC semifinal with VT and the Citadel drew 4,200.

GWTP--

As it is, the field is already tilted heavily in the Northeast's favor.

How does Connecticut get a 2 seed in the Clemson Regional with an RPI of 46? They should be a borderline 3/4 seed. Only by seeding them above Coastal Carolina, which has a higher RPI, and then finding another northeast school (Sacred Heart, RPI 84)) weak enough to be the 4 seed.

Same thing with the two Northeast schools that have 3 seeds. St. John's, with its RPI of 54 gets to be a 3 seed in the Charlottesville Regional only because Navy (RPI 189!) was placed in the same region. Coach O'Connor has a serious decision to make whether he wants to burn a weekend starter in his first regional game.

Similarly, Seton Hall with its 55 RPI should be a 4 seed, but it's the 3 seed in the College Station Regional because they found a weak enough automatic qualifier from the north in Wright State (154) to hold the 4 seed.

And you want more Northeast schools to qualify? Do you want to see more games like the one we'll see on Friday when Princeton brings its 162 RPI down to Austin to face the Longhorns?

What more do you want the committee to do? Do you want to structure the NCAA playoffs like the Little League World Series, where the US is guaranteed to have team in the finals?

I'm not ignoring the real difficulties posed by the weather and travel, but the committee can't be expected to create equality in the bracket where it does not exist on the diamond.

As long as we are playing mid-week games in 30 degree weather in March, and ending the season in May, when the weather just starts to get nice in the Northeast, competing with the South will be difficult. Enough said!

Things wont change. The season cant start any later because of the timing of the draft in June and how it can affect players still playing. It is one thing to have players that are involved in super regionals and beyond not being able to join their minor league teams. It would be another to know that every college player you draft couldnt join their team since they have at least a month left in the season. Also, schools dont want to have to house players for more of the summer than they do now. One thing to keep these guys until Memorial Day weekend, its another to keep them until Fourth of July.

It is just part of the college baseball equation. Even here in Missouri, we have to fight against Texas and Oklahoma schools in conference. Every now and then a northern school will pop up and be competitive, but for the most part, the southern schools will dominate.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
GWTP--

As it is, the field is already tilted heavily in the Northeast's favor.

How does Connecticut get a 2 seed in the Clemson Regional with an RPI of 46? They should be a borderline 3/4 seed. Only by seeding them above Coastal Carolina, which has a higher RPI, and then finding another northeast school (Sacred Heart, RPI 84)) weak enough to be the 4 seed.

Same thing with the two Northeast schools that have 3 seeds. St. John's, with its RPI of 54 gets to be a 3 seed in the Charlottesville Regional only because Navy (RPI 189!) was placed in the same region. Coach O'Connor has a serious decision to make whether he wants to burn a weekend starter in his first regional game.

Similarly, Seton Hall with its 55 RPI should be a 4 seed, but it's the 3 seed in the College Station Regional because they found a weak enough automatic qualifier from the north in Wright State (154) to hold the 4 seed.

And you want more Northeast schools to qualify? Do you want to see more games like the one we'll see on Friday when Princeton brings its 162 RPI down to Austin to face the Longhorns?

What more do you want the committee to do? Do you want to structure the NCAA playoffs like the Little League World Series, where the US is guaranteed to have team in the finals?

I'm not ignoring the real difficulties posed by the weather and travel, but the committee can't be expected to create equality in the bracket where it does not exist on the diamond.

Glad you brought it up, not me. I think that they seeded some sites unfairly to create championh$ip matchup$. I mean lets face it Coastal vs Clemson will bring a much larger gate fee than a match up with the other 2.

They tried the regional last year up north, 2200 for a championship is nothing. SC probably drew more like 7000+ for the final but for fire regulations they cannot announce.

Another thing is that they have given the teams credit and recognition that have VERY difficult schedules by awarding regionals sites. These teams go head to head in tough conference play and THEN have to use up pitching for conference tournies a week before regionals. They deserve the home field advantage.

A lot of your points are very valid. I guess the question is at the end of the day "Is it indisputable that the South will always dominate college baseball?" I think unfortunately the answer is yes.

To change this there needs to be huge rule changes to level the playing field. Hosting a northern regional I think will only go so far. There are ways to level the playing field but at what cost and if they are affordable, are they practical?

Can you start the season in May and play through the summer? Could that work with the college academic year, with the draft, with the current Minor League set up?

Can you force northeastern teams to fully fund their programs and offer 11.7 scholarships and build a nice stadium, say within 15 years? Yes, but you would probably see most northern school just give up baseball.

I don't buy the fact that northerners would not respond to competitive college baseball. The issue is no one wants to go sit on some bleachers in 40 degree weather. I have thought a lot about leveling the playing field and what I think it comes down to is the time of year that the season takes place in. I know it is not realistic but one final idea that could work is to start the season in early August, when football starts preseason. The only cold weather that you face then is "October baseball" which seems to do Ok at the next level.

Ken Jacobi
Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School, and Life as a Division I College Athlete"

GWTP,
You are talking college baseball (not football or basketball) which brings very little revenue (in fact probably none) to most programs.

quote:

I don't buy the fact that northerners would not respond to competitive college baseball.

I do. Being a fan of football and hockey in the north, as well as an umpire for baseball in the same area, I see a big discrepancy. In reading this thread initially, I was going to draw several comparisons between NCAA baseball and hockey regionals, and why things are done the way they are. That has already been addressed.

When it comes to football, hockey, and even basketball at the HS level, they are all "events." Admission is charged, entertainment is provided, and it's not all just about the game at hand. Baseball, on the other hand, is. Even with no admission (which is the norm in this area,) there is probably a maximum of 100 people attending vice a stadium or arena filled to capacity for the others. Those schools that incorporate entertainment (similar to a minor-league atmosphere,) though, do get nearly a thousand in attendance for baseball. If it was just competitiveness determining interest, this phenomenon wouldn't occur.

Moreso, with the summer leagues around here filled with D-III and D-II players, the teams that take the stance of providing a pastime, complete with stadiums, promotions, etc. are the ones that people come out to see. There may not be a marked difference in talent from Team A to Team B, but if Team A has a nearly minor-league park, with festivities and the like, they can draw at least ten times the people that Team B does playing at a city field.

You're right, Matt. The baseball venues providing more than just the game itself get better attendance.

Also, football, hockey and basketball usually take place on the weekend or in the evening. They are the main event. In the North, baseball is played in the afternoon, when students are doing their own thing. Other potential fans are at work. You're not gonna fill the stands with parents and girlfriends.

Ha, but could you imagine night baseball, in March?

I have three words for you: high school lacrosse.

The explosion in popularity of lacrosse, originating in the NE, has lured away a lot of the best athletes. It's fun and fast (i.e., it appeals to the fans) and it's easier than hitting a curveball.

quote:

Originally posted by slotty:
I have three words for you: high school lacrosse.

The explosion in popularity of lacrosse, originating in the NE, has lured away a lot of the best athletes. It's fun and fast (i.e., it appeals to the fans) and it's easier than hitting a curveball.

Maybe it has lured away many good athletes but not necessarily the best baseball players. Those players will find themselves on a varsity roster at some point. Afterall, if they can't hit a curve ball, lacrosse may be the sport for them.I believe those athletes go to lacrosse for 2 reasons:
1 - They'll never be good enough as baseball players and they know it and it will give them a better shot to get on the playing field...2 - Many school systems don't offer baseball in middle schools (at least in our area) so after little league, they go to other sports and probably would lose interest in baseball befor they get to high school anyway..

What I don't buy into is if somebody loves baseball and is good at it and is confident in their ability to play, they give it up for lacrosse.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
Ha, but could you imagine night baseball, in March?

Don't need to imagine. Been there, done that, got the numb fingers. In the first part of the season, if the field's playable, the game's played. Had a game this year at 34 degrees with a consistent 15 mph wind, which brought snow in the 4th inning.

HS baseball in the Northeast is kinda strange. There's this rush to get the season in and the games played. Then once the weather finally gets nice to where you can sit and enjoy a ballgame the season is over.

As for college ball, it's obvious why the cold weather regions will less likely reporesent their schools vs the warm weather states.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
HS baseball in the Northeast is kinda strange. There's this rush to get the season in and the games played. Then once the weather finally gets nice to where you can sit and enjoy a ballgame the season is over.

Iowa does their HS season in the summer.

Obviously to those of us from the South, just your comments about baseball make the statement for us. Baseball down here is an event in the game itself. We pay $6-$8 to go watch a high school game with hundreds if not a thousand of our closest friends and enemies. When you look at the college world the competitiveness is easily tilted to the south and west. Baseball in tne south can be just as important as football and basketball according to the school. Again, no hockey or lacrosse (whatever that is. Hockey with a net on a stick). Both of these are seen as versions of s****r.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Both of these are seen as versions of s****r.

That's too bad, because hockey is enormously entertaining. More contact than football, pucks travelling around 100 mph, it's a great time.

Here's the resl irony. Professional baseball is big in the northeast, at least where we live in Connecticut. At least in our corner of the NE, there are many, many baseball fans. Going to a Red Sox or a Yankees game is a big deal.

Looks at attendance stats for professional ball in Florida or Texas. Last year the Rangers weren't near the top of the list for attendance. How often do they fill the seats for a Marlins game? Or the Astros? So folks will go watch a college baseball game but not a professional one?

No real point here, and off topic a bit. I guess I am having trouble connecting the dots between baseball and geography. What I'm concluding is that each level of baseball is a distinct species.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:
Don't need to imagine. Been there, done that, got the numb fingers. In the first part of the season, if the field's playable, the game's played. Had a game this year at 34 degrees with a consistent 15 mph wind, which brought snow in the 4th inning.

At one game this year, the home plate umpire had one glove on. Clicker hand was bare.

My son gets a hit. First thing he does is take off his batting gloves and give them to the first base coach. The whole time he's on base, he got his hands up to his mouth, blowing warm air into them.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:
hockey is enormously entertaining

Men with knives on their feet!

quote:

Originally posted by twotex:
What I'm concluding is that each level of baseball is a distinct species.

I agree.

Baseball doesn't have the tradition in FL that you will find with some of the northern teams. Also keep in mind that you will find better attendance in states where no professional teams (any sport) exist, example being South Carolina.

Spring really doesn't start until May in the northeast so you run into the problem that no one wants be part of an event in 40 degree weather at night. Where a market that can work exists in the northeast ( Major League Baseball) there is huge excitement. The logistics simply do not work at the college level.

There are not enough warm days to get all of the games in in nice weather. With the weather being so poor, the good players don't want to go to school there. The teams are thus not as good, thus even less fans go to the games, thus even less money is made, thus even less of a case is made for building top facilities.

I think if there is a way to stem the self- fulfilling prophecy it is for certain Northeast conferences to seriously fund their programs enough to convince a few of the studs who would go down south to stay up North ( near family, big fish in a small pond, etc.)

I feel if enough did this ( though where is the money coming from, especially without as many large football programs to fund them in the north? ), enough great ballplayers would come/stay in the north. Better teams with better facilities means more fan excitement and better "events".

Still.. what to do about the dang weather? It is the elephant in the room that no one has a solution for.

Ken Jacobi

Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School, and Life as a Division I College Athlete"

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

Iowa does their HS season in the summer.

Really?..That's interesting. How do players in Iowa get noticed? Typically, the summer leagues & showcase teams are for exposure.

However, I like the idea of HS ball in the summer. It's kind of like legion ball the way it used to be at least in our area. Nice weather, night games. For us who work day jobs, it's impossible to get to games that start 4PM in the afternoon. By time I got to my son's varsity games, I was hoping for a slugfest every time hoping the game was moving so slow, I got there in the 3rd or 4th inning but most of the time I got there in the 6th or 7th or missed the game altogether if it was a pitcher's game.

Come playoff time in HS or Legion, both draws nice crowds and the town gets into them (at least the ones who follow HS baseball anyway). I much prefer watching a HS or Legion tournament series any day over a travel game. Even though there are a concentration of better players on the travel teams, the MudHens vs The RiverDogz don't generate the buzz legion or HS ball does IMO.

Memo to the NCAA

Please legislate the following: "Effective July 1, 2011, baseball is no longer a warm weather sport."

ask Arizona and East carolina where the Northeast is !!!!!

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"THE KIDS TODAY DO NOT STUDY MAPS ENOUGH !!!!!"

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But Umaine did beat Florida International yesterday!

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A snowball really does have a chance!




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Many props to Uconn for coming from the losers bracket to make the Super Regionals. Nothing would stand up for northeast baseball like a northern team making the final 8. No one can argue that the north is better than the south as a whole right now, but there needs to be trend-setters like Uconn who start to tilt the balance.

First came George Mason, then came the VCU's and Butler's of the basketball world. Now mid-majors make it deep into March Madness all the time. Teams will start to replicate what a school like Uconn doea ( in baseball), and soon enough every year there will be a "Uconn" or two sneaking into the College World Series.

You will very rarely get all final four teams in basketball to be mid-majors, but it is no longer rare to see a team from a smaller conference in the mix. I think the same thing is now happening in baseball. If I am a northerner and know that a school like Uconn has top of the line facilities and a real chance to make Omaha, all of a sudden I don't need to go to LSU anymore.

And on a final note, what a year for Uconn. BCS game in football, National Championship in basketball, and Super Regional in baseball! ( and these are only the major sports that come to mind right away)



Ken Jacobi

Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School, and Life as a Division I College Athlete"

ffact----- ucon-9 players drafted this year-univ f;orida 11

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

Originally posted by slotty:
I have three words for you: high school lacrosse.

The explosion in popularity of lacrosse, originating in the NE, has lured away a lot of the best athletes. It's fun and fast (i.e., it appeals to the fans) and it's easier than hitting a curveball.

Maybe it has lured away many good athletes but not necessarily the best baseball players. Those players will find themselves on a varsity roster at some point. Afterall, if they can't hit a curve ball, lacrosse may be the sport for them.I believe those athletes go to lacrosse for 2 reasons:
1 - They'll never be good enough as baseball players and they know it and it will give them a better shot to get on the playing field...2 - Many school systems don't offer baseball in middle schools (at least in our area) so after little league, they go to other sports and probably would lose interest in baseball befor they get to high school anyway..

What I don't buy into is if somebody loves baseball and is good at it and is confident in their ability to play, they give it up for lacrosse.

I agree with this. Socccer is also taking kids away from baseball. In todays world of parents never wanting to see their kids fail at anything, baseball is a game of failure. Where else can you fail 7 out of every 10 times, get paid well and be a HOF other than baseball. Going back to parents and their kids not wanting them to be part of failure, I believe that is why socccer is becoming more and more popular. Striking out twice and popping out twice is a bad day whereas just running up and down the field aimlessly kicking the ball half dozen times is considered a success in a lot of parents eyes.

I believe teaching and educating my kids on how to deal with failure helps shape and mold them into better people as they grow and fit into the world. Just my opinion though.

I am wondering when we are going to be able to shift the balance in hockey down here. Right now we don't have one hs hockey team. Not one! Can you believe that? Its not fair is it?

Its about the weather. Its that simple. NE has some outstanding players. But the numbers will never rival those of the warmer weather states simply because of --------------- the weather.

We don't have hockey. Why? The weather.

We don't have ice fishing. Why? The weather.

We don't have Elk hunting. Why? They don't live here.

NE has some flat out studs. Some outstanding baseball players. But an entire league of them at the college level compared to the SEC or several other conferences? No. That does not mean its not fair or something should be done about it. Its just the way it is. And its no big deal. Is it?

That was a good post CM.

To your point, Coach May:

Uncorroborated rumor has it that the NCAA is studying the efficacy (their term) of forming a Blue Ribbon Committee that will be charged with the task of determining how to best go about mandating the fair and equitable distribution of hockey programs among member institutions. Measures to be considered for legislation include, but are not limited to:

(1) Mandating the construction of ice arenas at all member institutions; early completion deadline to be required of all member institutions located south of the 38th parallel.
(2) Requiring that all member institutions north of the 38th parallel dedicate 1/2 of their regular season schedule to competition against member institutions located south of the 38th parallel.
(3) Lengthening or shortening the regular season so as to ensure equitable participation among all member institutions, regardless of location.
(4) Changing the regular season's start or completion dates so as to ensure equitable participation among all member institutions, regardless of location.
(5) Mandating the number of away games played during the regular season, with extra RPI points to be given to teams south of the 38th parallel that travel to play member institutions located north of the 38th parallel.
(6) Requiring at least half of all post-season tournaments to be played at member institutions located south of the 38th parallel.
(7) Raising the Minimum Allowable Temperature (M.A.T.)of the ice at all member institution arenas, so as to ensure conformity of ice temperature at all arenas, regardless of location.

In its Press Release, the NCAA is thought to have given the following reassurance to all college hockey fans, present and future:
"With the creation of yet another Blue Ribbon Committee and the legislative recommendations we expect to come from it, we are confident that we can bring geographic parity to a sport that, heretofore, has resisted parity through natural means. In the process, we will continue to make progress toward one of our over-arching goals: to eliminate all climatic discrimination in collegiate athletics."

I think some of these hockey rules make a lot of sense. The thing about hockey though is that it is played indoors, so in some way that neutralizes some things. I think the issue of hockey then is that most players in the warm weather states don't EVER play hockey, or if they do, it is not in a very competitive manner.

Baseball does not have that problem in the north. There are clearly many, many ball players in the north. ( I was amazed last night at how many northerners were on Vanderbilt's team). The issue is much more keeping these northerners around and getting the fans to support the teams ( at a Friday night game when its 41 degrees outside).

That being said, I think the hockey analogy is a very good one. Sometimes rules need to be adjusted to ensure an even playing field ( /rink). There is something to say that northerners are not as good at baseball because they don't play as much, but aside from that if the timeline and rules of the college baseball changed there certainly would be a more equal playing field. If the northern teams were mandated to build top of the line stadiums and the southern teams HAD to play 50% of their non- conference schedule in the north it would make a difference.

I understand these changes would bring about a slew of new issues, but it is an interesting idea to consider.


Ken Jacobi

Author of "Going with the Pitch: Adjusting to Baseball, School, and Life as a Division I College Athlete"