Who's swing models your idea best?

Coach

Question-- if the kid is a "hitter" at the HS level why do I, as a coach have to teach him to swing like somebody else ?


Seems to me all the "good" and "great" hitters hit like THEMSELVES and this includes the HS level hitter.

Dimaggio, but I wouldn't try to model everyone's swing after his. Some kids are power hitters and if you want to teach by showing them a good power hitter's swing then you'd find a power hitter (I like Bonds' swing but he doesn't have a classic power hitter's swing.) If they're a punch hitter you might want to show them a Gwynn, Carew or Rose. The only problem with that is that a kid who is a punch hitter in HS may not turn out to be a punch hitter in the long run or even next year in HS.

In other words, I don't think there is such a thing as a typical HS hitter.

J.D. Drew



A great model for a high school player because it's simple, direct, not a lot of noise.

Carrys his center forward, swings from the center, not much hand noise, match the plane, bingo......another dinger.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Coach

Question-- if the kid is a "hitter" at the HS level why do I, as a coach have to teach him to swing like somebody else ?


Seems to me all the "good" and "great" hitters hit like THEMSELVES and this includes the HS level hitter.

That, folks, is wisdom.

Beltran. Relaxed, fluid, perfect balance, great hip action and follow through.

Not to change the subject, but TR got me thinking. Has anyone else noticed how much Marquis Grissom's swing has changed since joining the Giants? It looks like he has modeled himself after Bonds... or is it just me?

Drew has a good swing for the power hitter model. It looks like he's swinging more up than the plane of the pitch in that clip. A bit more shoulder dip than I'd like to see for HS players who don't have home run power. Otherwise, I agree with the rest of Teach's comments.

Callaway

You hit the nerve I have opened--- HS kids are not major leaguers--if they are successful why try and fix it--they will get there in time

They will progress positively, hopefully, as they go thru college and lower pro levels

Personally I thought Grissom was a better hitter early on in his career as have been many hitters in MLB--many just level off

TR you write above,

“You hit the nerve I have opened--- HS kids are not major leaguers--if they are successful why try and fix it--they will get there in time’

With a statement like that I’m sure you are hitting a lot of other people’s nerves too.

To your statement I would say, “When might be a better time than the present for a player to start improving their skills”? And what convinces you that “Time (as in age)” is the determining factor in making someone’s fundamental's better.

A lot of people might believe becoming an outstanding hitter does not happen by accident; therefore they need to start doing some things on purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Coach

Question-- if the kid is a "hitter" at the HS level why do I, as a coach have to teach him to swing like somebody else ?


Seems to me all the "good" and "great" hitters hit like THEMSELVES and this includes the HS level hitter.

Really great question. I don't think that I worded my question correctly. When you look at a kid's swing and you have worked with the "typical" high school hitter and now have him close to where he is very comfortable and you feel that you have done a good job with that players, if you could then see that same swing with regards to a pro player, who's swing would it most resemble. We don't teach kids to look like any one player. We do have a "base" that we start with after we assess that a player is having difficulties. The our intended end result or picture in my head looks very much like Glauss' swing. I think that there are parts to Griffey's swing that are also in my mind's eye as a very good looking swing for a lefty. I hope that this clears it us some. Of course, we could just video a couple of pros off of TIVO and show the video then say go swing like them. That would make practice so easy. LOL!

TRhit, you can't be serious.....Sadly, I'm sure you are.....

Oh boy....here we go again...

TR you also write,

“They will progress positively, hopefully, as they go thru college and lower pro levels”

While you say players should “Hope” they progress positively, some of us would suggest players become a little more proactive and actually do a heck of a lot more than hope.

Instead of relying on time passing and hoping, I suggest a player start working on developing the swing that will take him as far as his athletic ability will allow and start right now.

CoachB25, Your initial question is excellent. You needn’t back down an inch.

I like parts of Griffey’s swing especially his quiet setup. I like Barry’s ability to hit inside pitches fair. I also like Barry’s ability to sit back on his backside and not need to take a big stride to balance.

And while TR is handing out ammunition, I'd like to take one more shot,

TR also writes, “Question-- if the kid is a "hitter" at the HS level why do I, as a coach have to teach him to swing like somebody else ?”

How about because the coach cares enough about the kid that he wants to give the player a chance to also be a “Hitter” on the college level.

I’m sure even the densest among us recognize that you can leave a high school kid with strength, bat speed and some batting practice to his own devices and he could probably be considered a “Hitter” in high school but it doesn’t insure that he’ll be a “Hitter” in college.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
...why try and fix it--they will get there in time...

or not.

MLB hitters have differing styles, however, there are things they all do from load to ball contact.......These things should be taught to younger hitters to give them a chance to reach their hitting potential....

To have the attitude that younger hitters, for any reason, don't need to learn these things is, well, a disappointment to see or hear.....I would hope that attitude is not prevalent in very many baseball circles......If we don't help the younger players, well, we're dropping the ball.....Big time.....

I'm not a tech guru. I do the best I can with some stuff that is one step behind the times. I have some video and now some clips of pro hitters. I don't have but soon will have the ability to match them up with pro hitters. I don't think that you teach to look like any one. I do believe that most if not all very successful hitters get to certain parts of a swing at exact times. I'll leave all of you to argue that. When I saw some recent clips of Glauss, I thought, that's the swing I've always had in my head. Teacherman, I saw your comment on Drew. You and I both were able to watch him play for a long time here. It also has a "model swing" without much wasted energy. That swing is why his stock was so high at such an early age. I like Griffey because he is so fluid. He never ever looks like he is working at it. I don't like Bond's swing because I don't like the dip in the hands. I know all of the arguments but for the "typical high school hitter," I can't get them compact enough as it is then to add that, well... I do think that it benefits a hitter to see their swing along side professionals. I don't then go and say, "now lets have you be them." I believe that you can coach mechanics and help with timing issues etc. However, I don't think you can make an non-athlete athletic over night. Thus you work with their strengths and make them better. JMHO!

CADad

quote:

Drew has a good swing for the power hitter model.

Does this mean that you would use different models (power vs. puncher), based on what type of hitter they are currently? I would be inclined to teach the Drew swing to all of my batters. Maybe we are talking about different aged kids, but it seems to me that his swing model could be used by any batter... Is my thinking flawed??

Is it just me or do others expect a little different swing from LH hitters. I watched our LH 9th grade 1B hit a 330 foot HR today in his first Varsity HS game. Weight 148

He swings like J D Drew. He was born doing it. His dad and uncle and grand father could play.

So B25, I like to just run across guys that already hit like MLB players ....thats sweet

OK someone explain to me the difference between a great HS hitters swing and a pros swing? And if this HS hitter is having tremendous success you are going to go to him and say "Son we need to change your swing like a major league players swing so you can be sucessfull when you get there". Lets say a HS hitter is capable of hitting the best pitching he faces upper 80s low 90s with good off speed stuff. Do you think Im going to go and change his swing? Go ahead and take your shots I dont care but that is ridiculous. If your son was this kid I would like for someone to come and suggest this to you. My son is a 15 yr old Freshman. The first pitch he saw in HS was Tuesday afternoon. He got a 88 mph fastball inside and up. He hit it off the left field wall for a double. But you know I probaly need to go to him and tell him that he needs to change his swing. Let them hit if they can hit. Why mess with success? If you see something in the swing that might be a problem down the road fine. But how do you know that untill it actually happens. I have seen alot of very good hitters tinkered with to the point that they couldnt hit a beach ball with a boat oar. Thats not going to be me.

By the way the response I want from a player if I ask him whos swing does he admire the most - mine coach because its mine. Ive worked my but off on my swing. And I hit like me. It is an individual thing. Why would a confident young man who believes in his own ability want to be a copy cat of someone else? If what you do works and you have confidence in how you do it its probaly because you have been sucessfull doing it. Now you want to go and change that? I guess I am out of the loop on this one. And Im glad I am.

Settle down coach. It's very simple. Put a video of your high school player next to the video of a mlb player with similar style and body build. You'll probably see differences.

Frame by frame video review will point out the differences. Each frame is a length of time depending on the speed of the video. If the HS player takes 4 frames to accomplish what the mlb player takes 3 frames, you're on to something. 1 frame is huge. Learn to quicken the HS player.

Swing quickness is where it's at. A quicker swing gives the player more read time. More read time leads to better decisions. Better decisions lead to a high BA and more power.

What do you think the player would think of you 5 years after he graduated and his career is over if he found out you knew something and didn't share it with him? Something that would've made a difference.

If changes are needed, the younger the better.

Otherwise you're a party to his failure.

He may reject everything you or I suggest. If so, fine. But to not offer and explain what you know and the difference it could make is irresponsible.

The number of hitters I see at the HS level, that have very good offensive numbers, while at the same time have obviously flawed swings is very high. They are currently outrunning the problem with their athleticism advantage.

They won't have that advantage soon.

Albert Puljos

Manny Ramirez - I think he has a beautiful swing.

The only "fault" I see with Drew's swing is that he appears to have some bat drag. That is the back elbow looks like it is starting the swing and gets a little ahead of the hands leading to a longer "time" swing.
Anyone else see this?

Coach May

Glad to see someone agrees with me-- if a HS kid is tearing it up at all the levels , HS and travel why mess with it just to say "I got him swing like so and so"-- Is it for the coaches ego ?

A HS player who is a hitter should progress every year just on natural ability---my own son went from the 360's to 460's to 560's in his three years of HS---In college he hit .278 his first year and then was not below .340 for the next three years

I ask the resident geniuses SBK and TEACHERMAN---if you son is hitting that well are you going to change anything-- AS Coach May says many a good HS hitter has gotten screwed up by coaches trying to change things that arent broke

I thought it was my job to help a kid be sucessfull at the HS level. If he is tearing it up at our level he will get a chance to tear it up at the College or Pro level. Then if that College coach or Pro coach sees something he wants to tinker with go right ahead buddy hes all yours now. We had a kid drafted a couple of years ago a lhp in the second round. Scouts were all over the place all the time. After the games several of them would come up and say things like "You know if he would open his hips a little earlier he could get a little more on his fast ball". You know always offering tips. Finally after a game that he hit 94 on the last pitch of the game and struck out 18 of 21 and no hit a good team I had to say something. A scout walks up and says "Boy he looked good tonight but you know I was noticeing that he was a little slow to the plate on his delivery you might want to speed him up". I looked right at him with several scouts standing around and said "I think we have done a pretty good job with him to this point or you wouldnt be here would you". "If you draft him then you can coach him but untill you do why dont you let us". The rest of the scouts broke up in laughter behind him and that was the last time we had to here that stuff. I welcome tips and tid bits from anyone that is truly trying to help. But if I have a kid that is mashing I AINT GOING TO FIX WHAT AINT BROKE AT MY LEVEL BECAUSE THAT IS THE LEVEL I COACH. If someone else wants to fix him at their level then its on them. But it wont be on me.

TR,

I’ll answer your post but first let me say to all. If you can’t have reasonable discussion with relatively reasonable people, what fun is it? If that’s the case, I’m out of here too.

First of all, let’s all remember that if we were in the same room, it would be a little easier to communicate. Using a keyboard is limiting and I doubt if any of us have the time to elaborate as much as we’d like or sometimes as much as is necessary to get a point across accurately. If you have a problem, say so and let the other guy defend their position.

I’ve been hanging around this site a while now and I’ve always been surprised how much grief Swingbuster, Teacherman and Bluedog get when the discussion turns to swinging a bat. I am not necessarily referring to this particular topic but over the course of the year. I will say that from what I’ve read, I think they have a pretty good idea what they are talking about. The fundamentals as I understand what they are saying appear to be pretty sound.

I think Teacherman’s last post is one of the better posts I’ve come across. It is so basic that it is brilliant. I’ve also complimented CoachMay and CoachB25 more than a few times for their insight and passion for helping kids. I’ve got goose bumps more than a couple times from their passionate stories.

As far as you TR, you come across as a grumpy veteran who likes to create a persona of being a hard nosed player that took delight in ripping up the opposition with your spikes. I know you like to confront me and others with that attitude but I can certainly handle you with the keyboard. Bottom line is that I really don’t give a rip how much you try to p-i-ss me off with your nonsense at times because a lot of posters that I’ve come to respect think a lot of you so I got to believe that if you and I were watching a game together or even sitting across the table having a cup of coffee, we’d probably get along just fine.

CoachB25, CoachMay and maybe other coaches,

You guys are probably doing an outstanding job of teaching the players what they do to move on. CoachMay, if your son can turn on heat and stay back on offspeed as a 15 year old freshman, he did a great job of picking his dad and coach. All your kids are very fortunate and from the high school players I’ve observed in my area, they are the exception.

Players around here struggle against 80 mph fastballs and about the only time they’d see a 90 mph pitch is if the groundskeeper moved in the mound 10 feet.

To answer TR’s question,
“I ask the resident geniuses SBK and TEACHERMAN---if you son is hitting that well are you going to change anything-- AS Coach May says many a good HS hitter has gotten screwed up by coaches trying to change things that arent broke”

Teacherman repeatedly has answered this question but I’ll try one more time.

The answer is, “It depends on why the kid is successful”. Is he successful because he has solid fundamentals? Or maybe he doesn’t have solid fundamentals but is successful because of something else such as he is athletic and strong and is facing mediocre pitching. If he falls into the second scenario and he has aspirations of playing at the next level, and if the coach has the ability to instruct, then to not try to help him would be irresponsible.

Next question of course is what are solid fundamentals. Again Teacherman and others have pointed out that there certain traits along the swing that almost all of the top hitters do.

To TR’s comment about Coach May saying, many a good HS hitter has gotten screwed up by coaches trying to change things that aren’t broke”……, that’s why coaching makes a difference. I agree that a lot of people have no business trying to tell someone how to swing.

And TR, I’m going to take your “Genius” designation as a compliment because I know you don’t throw out compliments lightly.

its never easy around here anymore, is it


I do think there has been some excellent discussion around here, too. Just gotta separate the wheat from the chaffe...

lots of things are shades of grey. if a kid *performs* well with less than perfect mechanics, alot of it could also be style, and we think its fundamentals. Of course, if its something that really veers of the course of the 2-3 absolutes in the swing, then I think it would be worth bringing up.

But you better believe that I would have a frank discussion with the kid (and possibly parents, especially at our age - 14U). If things don't work out, you'll be known as the one that ruined his future.

You, as a coach, better bring me video swing analysis with angles, etc. to show me what you mean. If you're just talking in some vagaries that you can't firmly lay out to me, I'm less likely to believe you.

To change a kid that is having that much success without concrete evidence, you're not doing yourself or the kid any justice.

SBK

You call me out and then when I respond I am the "grumpy old vet"-- I guess it is all in the interpretation.

I only say this and will say again-- if it ain't broke why am I going to try and fix it.


As for your interprtation of my posts that is your thing--- Didn't say you were wrong or right--only asked you two genuiuses why you want to change what is working.--and what if I take a lefty hitter and say hit like Stan Musial--it aint going to happen--

The way you two pontificate irks me as well--- as grown men--lets agree to disgree and leave it at that---fair enough !!!!

This forum is for discussion---- still waiting for the answer to the question so we can proceed

And by the way I did play hardnosed baseball in Queens, Brooklyn and LI in my youth and I expect kids to play the same way for me today. I like hardnosed baseball--remember Eddie Stanky !!!! Maury Wills !!! Pete Rose !!! Joe Morgan !!!!

Did you ever see them play?

I see a near perfect swing in Glaus too. A stride, a good landing, great rotation. Good quiet but definable arm action, effortless power, some slight plane transition

This notion that the swing is some mystical gift is strange. You guys make it sound like it is some supernatural, clairvoyant, magical movement that if one suggests something to the possessor of this gift that it will suddenly go away and he'll be condemned to batting hell for the rest of his life.

Like not mentioning a no hitter to a pitcher, or stepping on 3B line when taking the field.

Please get into the here and now.

You guys believe any suggestion by a coach to a guality hitter will ruin him.

Not so. He can experiment all he wants. His existing swing will still be there.

Ever try to change a swing? Difficult to do.

That's why if necessary you start young.

I'm just saying you should have some concrete evidence of what you're changing and why.

and you're right, its not the end of the world (depending on whose shoes you're in!!)

I really like the clip of Rogers Hornsby as well, I can see the balance and fundamental foundation that is seen in the more successful hitters through history. I think Albert Puljos, Manny, A Rod, Thome, JD Drew and others apply the solid foundation of a fundamental hitter. So I guess those foundations are what I look for in a young hitter, or try to develop. When they have success, no matter what level, there we find the foundation and groundwork that can be built upon. Not as fixing something but enhancing that which can be adjusted and perhaps move a players BA from .300 to .350. Maybe even someday we will get to see a .400 hitter in our time. What a joy that would be eh!?

TR,

I answered your question. Check out my post above again. Here’s an excerpt.

TR’s question is,
“I ask the resident geniuses SBK and TEACHERMAN---if you son is hitting that well are you going to change anything-- AS Coach May says many a good HS hitter has gotten screwed up by coaches trying to change things that arent broke”

The answer is, “It depends on why the kid is successful”. Is he successful because he has solid fundamentals? Or is he successful simply because he is athletic and strong and is facing mediocre pitching but has poor fundamentals. If he falls into the second scenario and he has aspirations of playing at the next level, and if the coach has the ability to instruct, then to not try to help him would be irresponsible.

Seems pretty direct and common sense.

TR, you accuse me of “Pontificating”. I’m not exactly sure what that big word means but it sounds like something pigeons do on statues. I don't have time to look it up so I’ll just take it as a compliment. That’s two in one day from you.

Seriously though, there’s really nothing I’ve said regarding hitters that should be too original or profound. I do believe that having a sweet swing is not natural. Leave a kid to their own devices and it seems natural to want to reach out and extend the arms and throw your weight into the ball. Therefore to develop a sweet swing, some where along the line a player needs to acquire some techniques that are probably counter to what is natural. Teacherman echoes what I’ve said many times, “The younger they improve their swing the better”.

As I’ve joked before, “If a player is too set in their ways, if they want to make changes, they are going to have to break their arms and start over”.

TR. I have no doubt that you were a hard-nosed, tough player in your day. If you and I competed against each other, I’m sure we’d have mixed it up a little. If you’d have intentionally spiked me, you could bank on it. On the other hand, if someone cheap-shotted me on a double play, you sound like the kind of teammate that I could count on to cover my backside.

i have a question: whats a good "model" swing for tall lanky players?

Tcs4,

What do you think about John Olerud?

Does anyone have clips of him?

Thanks

SBK

If you are on my team I protect you for sure--that is what a team is all about--we are one !!!!

My boys all play the same way--they are throwbacks--dirty uniforms all the time--