Teacherman your last post was right on the money. You have to get to them when they are young you really do. It is extremely hard to change a swing of an older player. Especially the ones that have had some success as well. There are kids with poor swings that have had sucess because the level of the pitching they have been facing is very weak. Most kids that struggle, struggle because they have been taught very poor mechanics or none at all at a young age and they have been reinforced over and over and over. If you can get to them when they are younger you can (save them) and help them alot. I have always said I would rather have a kid come in that has never been taught anything than taught the wrong way very well.
I tried to get an early jump on hitting but wife wouldn't help.
She refused to eat the baseball bat,
She refused to eat the baseball bat,
quote:Originally posted by Teacherman:
This notion that the swing is some mystical gift is strange. You guys make it sound like it is some supernatural, clairvoyant, magical movement...
The swing is not but the ability to hit the ball consistently hard is. You can have a nice swing and still not be a good hitter.
I agree wholeheartedly with starting young. We have worked on a good foundation for all of our hitters since they were 9. Also, we tinker with things on a regular basis. I have even tried using some of the things mentioned on this board.
quote:I have even tried using some of the things mentioned on this board.
I work with players of all ages.....And, without a doubt, High School players are the most aggravating to me........They are real quick to say they can't do something I ask them to do.....I often hear, "it doesn't feel right".....And, they've only tried the new way a swing, or two......I tell them to try it a couple of hundred swings and get back to me......
Bluedog - SIMPLY ONE OF YOUR BEST POSTS! We had our budget cut exactly in half. We were to lose one of our major tournaments and any games that teams dropped us from our schedule were not to be rectified by adding another team. Well, we are in a poor situation. We had our "select feeder program" approach us and they wanted a multilevel clinic for 10 dates to work on both pitching and hitting. They paid us a fee that went straight into my program (I received nothing) and we were able to work with every "select player" in our community for those 10 dates. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND THIS. BTW, we had a parent tape and so, we can show the player his improvements from the time he was 9 until he is in high school since they have requested that this be a yearly clinic.
I have a question for you coaches about the stance. My son's stance has his feet about as wide as his shoulders, and he stands up fairly staight. He is 6'1" & around 190lb. He has a rotational swing, swings on plane and has very good power with an average stride. Has hit a few shots over 400 feet. His coach wants him to widen his stance, says he has too much head movement. I don't see it. Since he has widened his stance, he is still hitting the ball hard, but it usually on the ground up the middle or to the right side. I personally liked it better when he was hitting the ball over the outfielders heads. Son says he feels he can't fire his hips. Is the coach right and he just needs to get used to it? How wide a stance do you guys teach?
Difficult to analyze without seeing video but demanding a stance wider than shoulder width is a red flag to me. How wide is he asking him to be after stride? Is this an attempt to go no stride?
I can give or take a little on the width. How wide is he asking for?
I can give or take a little on the width. How wide is he asking for?
He has him about six inches wider than his usual. Coach hasn't said anything about no stride, but he is so wide now, he can't stride any at all. Kind of like just lifting the foot and putting it back down in the same place. Coach says he is trying to keep his head from moving forward. If it is, it's not moving very much. Semms to me he is so wide, the hips can't open and he can't turn on anything. Thanks for the response Teach.
What was his reason for changing your sons stance? Being too wide will make it hard to fire the hips. Its not a bad idea for some kids with two strikes just to make contact. But if your son was hitting fine and comfortable why did he change him? Like Teacherman was inquiring was he trying to teach him to no stride hit by putting him in a very wide stance? He will loose power if his stance is too wide.
Coach May,
The coach told him he was hitting the ball in the air too much. It all started after a scrimmage a couple of weeks ago. He hit a deep high fly to the warning track for an out. Next at bat he hit a shot over the center field wall. Strangely, coach didn't seem to happy about it. Next day at BP, he told him he wanted him to hit line drives. Son hit two more out. What is really strange to me is, son bats in the four hole and this is his third year on varsity playing for this coach. Never said anything about his swing before.
The coach told him he was hitting the ball in the air too much. It all started after a scrimmage a couple of weeks ago. He hit a deep high fly to the warning track for an out. Next at bat he hit a shot over the center field wall. Strangely, coach didn't seem to happy about it. Next day at BP, he told him he wanted him to hit line drives. Son hit two more out. What is really strange to me is, son bats in the four hole and this is his third year on varsity playing for this coach. Never said anything about his swing before.
To be honest with you I have had some guys that I have widened up because they had too much stride. We generally have them pick up the lead foot and just put it back down as a timing device. If they want to stride a little its ok with me. Personally if your son is in the four hole and hitting bombs whats the problem with that? He is going to pop some up and he is going to hit some out so what.
TX05 DAD
I can see both sides...The coach thinks a wider stance will yield a shorter stride and maybe better posture will save him time getting in a position to get behind a low FB. IOWs he doesn't think your son' HR capabilities are as valuable as line drives off high level pitching. Most HS stats would support that fact.
You think he might be coaching the athletic swing away from your son who has proved his power potential and you could be right.
I have seen this with my son. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle....maybe some moderate width change and better spine angle starting BUT....do not create undue TENSION in a hitter that had a fluid motion.
Can he start tall and narrow and hit really fast pitching consistently? THats what I would want to see. If he can show me that...I would leave him alone. In time, batting averges between the two styles become pretty telling if you guys don't "duke it out" before you get some data.
Sometimes two inches wider helps and 10-15 degree spine angle changes...not too much too fast....I'm with you on that
Keep us posted.......
I can see both sides...The coach thinks a wider stance will yield a shorter stride and maybe better posture will save him time getting in a position to get behind a low FB. IOWs he doesn't think your son' HR capabilities are as valuable as line drives off high level pitching. Most HS stats would support that fact.
You think he might be coaching the athletic swing away from your son who has proved his power potential and you could be right.
I have seen this with my son. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle....maybe some moderate width change and better spine angle starting BUT....do not create undue TENSION in a hitter that had a fluid motion.
Can he start tall and narrow and hit really fast pitching consistently? THats what I would want to see. If he can show me that...I would leave him alone. In time, batting averges between the two styles become pretty telling if you guys don't "duke it out" before you get some data.
Sometimes two inches wider helps and 10-15 degree spine angle changes...not too much too fast....I'm with you on that
Keep us posted.......
For what it’s worth! Here is a story.
There was a young high school player in 1988 who to this day still holds the all time records at his high school for Batting average, RBI, Home runs, doubles, most hits and some other things. This is a high school that is 60 years old with over 2,000 students at the time he played there.
The player then went to a top JUCO program and set records for batting average, home runs and RBI. This young player had always hit exceptionally well from the first organized league he ever played in all the way through two years of college. He was always, by far, the best hitter where ever he played.
While this kid was young his dad who was a scout at the time noticed some flaws in his approach and in his swing. His dad decided to just leave him alone because the kid was doing so well. The dad thought maybe the kid is just a natural. The high school and JUCO coaches also left him alone because he was so productive. Everyone took the approach… if it aint broke don’t fix it.
The players first year in pro ball he started to struggle and the hitting coach then spread him out and changed a few things. They were basically the same things that the player’s father noticed when the player was a young boy. The hitter did not adjust readily to the new style and struggled even more. After that season he was given his release and out of professional baseball because he couldn’t hit. His father then felt very bad that he didn’t help his son make the obvious adjustments at a much earlier age. The dad felt selfish because he just loved seeing his son tear it up and wasn’t willing to change anything. After all, his kid was a star at the time. His dad thought, only if I had it to do over.
By the way, this story is based on a very true experience. I know because I was that dad!
There was a young high school player in 1988 who to this day still holds the all time records at his high school for Batting average, RBI, Home runs, doubles, most hits and some other things. This is a high school that is 60 years old with over 2,000 students at the time he played there.
The player then went to a top JUCO program and set records for batting average, home runs and RBI. This young player had always hit exceptionally well from the first organized league he ever played in all the way through two years of college. He was always, by far, the best hitter where ever he played.
While this kid was young his dad who was a scout at the time noticed some flaws in his approach and in his swing. His dad decided to just leave him alone because the kid was doing so well. The dad thought maybe the kid is just a natural. The high school and JUCO coaches also left him alone because he was so productive. Everyone took the approach… if it aint broke don’t fix it.
The players first year in pro ball he started to struggle and the hitting coach then spread him out and changed a few things. They were basically the same things that the player’s father noticed when the player was a young boy. The hitter did not adjust readily to the new style and struggled even more. After that season he was given his release and out of professional baseball because he couldn’t hit. His father then felt very bad that he didn’t help his son make the obvious adjustments at a much earlier age. The dad felt selfish because he just loved seeing his son tear it up and wasn’t willing to change anything. After all, his kid was a star at the time. His dad thought, only if I had it to do over.
By the way, this story is based on a very true experience. I know because I was that dad!
The last two posts here are two of the best posts I have read in a while. Swingbuster I totally agree with you. My post was not to suggest that the coach was wrong in anyway because I have not seen the kid hit. I do agree with your post every bit of it. PG great post. I will learn from that and I will use your experience in the future. Thank you for sharing that story. Now let me have some suggestions. My youngest son is a 15 year old freshman and he is very talented behind the plate. He also has had alot of success at the plate. He has tremendous power and his hands are freakishly fast. He can turn on big time velocity already. As a matter of fact his first pitch he saw in HS last Tuesday was an 88 mph two seamer inside and up that he took off the wall for a double. He hits the curveball well but the problem I see with him is he has a hard time waiting back even when he sees the ball is a change or curveball. You can see him waiting but when he decides to swing it seems he is still out in front alot of the times. You can throw him 10 straight hooks then heat him up and he still is all over the fastball. What can I do to help him wait longer. I have worked with him taking everything to rf in practice just to get him to wait back more. Any suggestions would be appreciated. One more thing he has always feasted on the top pitching. He has always hit for a lower average against the weaker pitchers. Thanks
Coach May,
Personally I think there are some people who really know hitting who post on here. Myself I need to see a hitter completely before making suggestions. I can't see everything I need by watching video. However, I do think video is one of the absolute most valuable things for studying the swing. However, I like to see the whole thing, the pitch, the location, the timing, etc. in addition to the swing.
Your son sounds like my son who I mentioned before. I didn't tinker much with his swing, but we did talk about hitting. We had him think opposite field on everything except fastball. This didn't mean he actually went opposite field, but his thought process was opposite field. It worked well for him. I think it's the mental process more than the practice. If you can train your mind to think opposite field on everything except fastball, you tend to stay back longer and actually swing at those pitches less often before two strikes.
I thought my son hit the better pitching best also, but it was really just the better of the not so great pitching. Fastballs at 90+ he hit very well, breaking balls and off speed he hit OK. But there comes a time if you play long enough when the breaking balls are much sharper with more velocity, and the 90+ fastballs are better with more movement. That is when the faults in the swing become magnified.
By the way my son was a straight up narrow stanced guy. I never liked it, but the results were outstanding. His actual swing was beautiful with great bat speed. He just got to the level where he couldn't hit certain pitches very well and those were the pitches the best hitters need to hit. Mainly the good running or sinking fastball.
There's 90+ mph fastballs that are straight and there are those that are not straight. (I'm not telling anything everyone doesn't already know)I really believe that if he would have developed better hitting mechanics, he had great hitting skills, he might not of been quite as good early on, but more prepared when he got to professional baseball.
Definitely not saying this is true in all cases! There will always be exceptions to the rule.
Personally I think there are some people who really know hitting who post on here. Myself I need to see a hitter completely before making suggestions. I can't see everything I need by watching video. However, I do think video is one of the absolute most valuable things for studying the swing. However, I like to see the whole thing, the pitch, the location, the timing, etc. in addition to the swing.
Your son sounds like my son who I mentioned before. I didn't tinker much with his swing, but we did talk about hitting. We had him think opposite field on everything except fastball. This didn't mean he actually went opposite field, but his thought process was opposite field. It worked well for him. I think it's the mental process more than the practice. If you can train your mind to think opposite field on everything except fastball, you tend to stay back longer and actually swing at those pitches less often before two strikes.
I thought my son hit the better pitching best also, but it was really just the better of the not so great pitching. Fastballs at 90+ he hit very well, breaking balls and off speed he hit OK. But there comes a time if you play long enough when the breaking balls are much sharper with more velocity, and the 90+ fastballs are better with more movement. That is when the faults in the swing become magnified.
By the way my son was a straight up narrow stanced guy. I never liked it, but the results were outstanding. His actual swing was beautiful with great bat speed. He just got to the level where he couldn't hit certain pitches very well and those were the pitches the best hitters need to hit. Mainly the good running or sinking fastball.
There's 90+ mph fastballs that are straight and there are those that are not straight. (I'm not telling anything everyone doesn't already know)I really believe that if he would have developed better hitting mechanics, he had great hitting skills, he might not of been quite as good early on, but more prepared when he got to professional baseball.
Definitely not saying this is true in all cases! There will always be exceptions to the rule.
If I may.
I would look for areas of slack. Areas that are in the way of launch. Areas that have to be moved or realigned in order to swing.
Taking out all slack will make him quicker. Not that he isn't already quick. But, quicker will allow more wait. Remember 1 frame of video separates a mlb hitter from a AAA hitter.
Players have a built in clock that works with their swing. They know the time lapse from decision to contact. This length of time is engrained. It is part of them. They use it subconsciously to determine when to swing. My swing takes this long so I need this amount of time so I start when the ball is.....(different for each hitter).
Reduce the time from decision to contact and you've given him a huge boost.
May be mechanical. May be strength. May be vision. May be mental. May be all the above.
What are swing mechanics?......Those things that get the bat on plane and to contact in the shortest time possible from the time a decision is made, while at the same time generating significant batspeed. Significant.......not maximum.
S e t p r o ' s reaction trainer is a great tool for this.
I would look for areas of slack. Areas that are in the way of launch. Areas that have to be moved or realigned in order to swing.
Taking out all slack will make him quicker. Not that he isn't already quick. But, quicker will allow more wait. Remember 1 frame of video separates a mlb hitter from a AAA hitter.
Players have a built in clock that works with their swing. They know the time lapse from decision to contact. This length of time is engrained. It is part of them. They use it subconsciously to determine when to swing. My swing takes this long so I need this amount of time so I start when the ball is.....(different for each hitter).
Reduce the time from decision to contact and you've given him a huge boost.
May be mechanical. May be strength. May be vision. May be mental. May be all the above.
What are swing mechanics?......Those things that get the bat on plane and to contact in the shortest time possible from the time a decision is made, while at the same time generating significant batspeed. Significant.......not maximum.
S e t p r o ' s reaction trainer is a great tool for this.
PG and Teacherman thank you for your responses.
TCS4
Have you seen Adam LaRoche (6'3" 180lbs) with the Braves swing? When he debuted last season, I said to my son, "Who is this guy? He looks about as much like a MLB "hitter" as my Aunt Edith!" I thought he was a pitcher (btw, his dad was). But, watch his swing, it is as smooth as silk. I think this guy is going to put some numbers this season.quote:whats a good "model" swing for tall lanky players?
Ross,
I watch him and his power. AMAZING HOW HE CAN STAY SO TALL AND HIT
I watch him and his power. AMAZING HOW HE CAN STAY SO TALL AND HIT
Coach May,
Observations about Staying Back
The negative move that we could all write 100 pages on affects how you stay back. Coiling your hips( ****-ing)as you stride properly can help a player find the balance point to CARRY the weight forward in a metered, controlled manner VS PUSHING forward. This might be the hardest part of hitting to teach because it defines timimg IMO. Your son must start early getting in lock step with the pitcher but in a position be can adjust the transfer faster or slower....for balanced forward motion. I think this is facilitated by the rear hip tuck..
Ball Contact Point..
When I invented the Hands Back Hitter I knew that putting the contact point inside the lead foot post stride would keep the players back. If I could get the front foot down and have the ball appear just equal to or inside the lead foot the player would forget about the need to go forward for power...he would access rotary power. He would learn to get the foot down and welcome the ball coming into his power zone. I also saw and encouraged players to hit groupings off the HBH that were all in a small area in CF. Moving the objective from LF power to CF power helped players Stay Back. Now in a game, the LF hit does occur but keeping the focus back through the box makes the
"accidental" pull ball go 50 more feet
SO ...my suggestion is a fluid coiling of the hip so it can carry the weight forward and get a mental expectation of letting the ball come to you ( deeper contact point).
Again I think working oppo to a pull hitter is a big change and I would start working CF as it is easier and more productive/less frustrating.
As a side note..any 88MPH FB he can take off the left field wall is acceptable
Observations about Staying Back
The negative move that we could all write 100 pages on affects how you stay back. Coiling your hips( ****-ing)as you stride properly can help a player find the balance point to CARRY the weight forward in a metered, controlled manner VS PUSHING forward. This might be the hardest part of hitting to teach because it defines timimg IMO. Your son must start early getting in lock step with the pitcher but in a position be can adjust the transfer faster or slower....for balanced forward motion. I think this is facilitated by the rear hip tuck..
Ball Contact Point..
When I invented the Hands Back Hitter I knew that putting the contact point inside the lead foot post stride would keep the players back. If I could get the front foot down and have the ball appear just equal to or inside the lead foot the player would forget about the need to go forward for power...he would access rotary power. He would learn to get the foot down and welcome the ball coming into his power zone. I also saw and encouraged players to hit groupings off the HBH that were all in a small area in CF. Moving the objective from LF power to CF power helped players Stay Back. Now in a game, the LF hit does occur but keeping the focus back through the box makes the
"accidental" pull ball go 50 more feet
SO ...my suggestion is a fluid coiling of the hip so it can carry the weight forward and get a mental expectation of letting the ball come to you ( deeper contact point).
Again I think working oppo to a pull hitter is a big change and I would start working CF as it is easier and more productive/less frustrating.
As a side note..any 88MPH FB he can take off the left field wall is acceptable
Thanks Swingbuster and PG for your excellent posts. We talked last night in the garage while he was taking some swings. He is going to take it as wide as he can and still be able to fire the hips. Sure is some good info in here. Trying to learn as much as we can.
Thanks swingbuster for the information. I teach letting the ball get deep and not trying to (chase the ball). I think what I am going to put more emphasis on with him is calming down and not being so anxious to hit. Let the ball get deeper and work more on hitting backside and cf. He saw 7 pitches in the game I talked about and swung at 7 pitches. I love his agressiveness but this is too agressive. I think if he just relaxes and is not so pumped up to mash he will be fine in the long run. His swing is fluid and really beautifull to watch. It is short compact and very powerfull. Good information here I appreciate your help. I will let you all know how it goes.
On selectivity... I have my son take 1/2 the zone away. That half can come out of the middle is you prefer but for him the cue is to "look down early in the count"....we take the lower half away. THe first pitch is not generally a high FB sucker pitch and we are ceratin the pitcher wants to be ahead. If he opens with a CB we usually take it unless it hangs big time. We want to take the bottom half of the zone away and mentally expect the ball to be there. It makes it easier to be selective than "get a good pitch to hit " cues for him.
The reason we like to hit it is that he tends to drive the ball flatter when the bat head goes down and flushes the ball. Now when and if it comes to two strikes. ....I think any batter can look down react up better than look up and react down AND...HE gets into his front side better and extends better.
Batting third he gets pitched tough....you know...you get two good pitches in the game. Most kids cannot handle the entire strike zone and we don't try until two strikes.
Good subject...thanks for letting me participate. My wife just doesn't like talking baseball...I don't get it.
The reason we like to hit it is that he tends to drive the ball flatter when the bat head goes down and flushes the ball. Now when and if it comes to two strikes. ....I think any batter can look down react up better than look up and react down AND...HE gets into his front side better and extends better.
Batting third he gets pitched tough....you know...you get two good pitches in the game. Most kids cannot handle the entire strike zone and we don't try until two strikes.
Good subject...thanks for letting me participate. My wife just doesn't like talking baseball...I don't get it.
TX05Dad,
Call it a personal preference... I like wide! Someone with more video or pictures than me can do a study, but I see more and more professional hitters that are spread out more than shoulder width, some much more. You'll even see some of the best who are "unusually" spread out.
I think it has to do with covering the low strikes. It is my belief as a general rule you should be able to subtract about 6 to 8 inches or less from the contact position (after stride) and that is a good starting point. It should have no bearing on ability to fire the hips and can actually help create a better plane. Being spread out can help balance and that helps everything. I do know there are those who might disagree.
I do agree with all those who use the middle field approach. When answering Coach May's question I was referring to a specific case... His son being too early too often, especially on breaking balls. I think a center field/opposite field thought process can help in that problem. See the curve ball... imediately think up the middle to opposite field. If it's hanging on the inner half you'll still be able to pull it hard.
These are just my opinions, take it for what it's worth.
Coach May,
I really like aggressive young hitters! What I like best are those who "attack under complete control". Out of control is over-aggressive and just won’t work in most every case. It’s that one notch more than perfect efficiency.
Teacherman,
Obviously you study and know an awful lot about hitting.
Your description of swing mechanics:
“What are swing mechanics?......Those things that get the bat on plane and to contact in the shortest time possible from the time a decision is made, while at the same time generating significant batspeed. Significant.......not maximum.”
I normally don’t want to get into these hitting discussions because of the time required to explain everything. And sometimes because of being a coward and not wanting to argue or defend my thoughts (which could take lots of time).
I try to read most everything though and have grown to respect yours and others knowledge and passion for hitting. However there’s one thing that has always confused me. I think either yourself or Blue Man once stated that what happens after contact is unimportant. Not to start an argument, but I believe what happens after contact is very important.
The similarities we see in most all great hitters includes what happens after contact. The fluid finish, follow through, bat path, etc should be a continuation of the total swing.
If you run great hitters video in reverse you will see that most all have a fluid path even backwards from finish to start. I think the good hitters are still hitting after they’ve made contact. Maybe it wasn’t you that said this earlier, if so I apologize. It’s just that your description of swing mechanics reminded me of that point.
Swingbuster,
You may just be one of the world’s biggest students of hitting. However, once in awhile I get lost in some of the words used in your discriptions. It’s not your fault that I am so stupid and don’t understand some of the terminology. But call it a hunch… I think there’s at least a couple others who don’t totally understand everything that you describe.
Anyway, keep up the good work and I will try to cipher it all. Not a complaint, just an admission.
Call it a personal preference... I like wide! Someone with more video or pictures than me can do a study, but I see more and more professional hitters that are spread out more than shoulder width, some much more. You'll even see some of the best who are "unusually" spread out.
I think it has to do with covering the low strikes. It is my belief as a general rule you should be able to subtract about 6 to 8 inches or less from the contact position (after stride) and that is a good starting point. It should have no bearing on ability to fire the hips and can actually help create a better plane. Being spread out can help balance and that helps everything. I do know there are those who might disagree.
I do agree with all those who use the middle field approach. When answering Coach May's question I was referring to a specific case... His son being too early too often, especially on breaking balls. I think a center field/opposite field thought process can help in that problem. See the curve ball... imediately think up the middle to opposite field. If it's hanging on the inner half you'll still be able to pull it hard.
These are just my opinions, take it for what it's worth.
Coach May,
I really like aggressive young hitters! What I like best are those who "attack under complete control". Out of control is over-aggressive and just won’t work in most every case. It’s that one notch more than perfect efficiency.
Teacherman,
Obviously you study and know an awful lot about hitting.
Your description of swing mechanics:
“What are swing mechanics?......Those things that get the bat on plane and to contact in the shortest time possible from the time a decision is made, while at the same time generating significant batspeed. Significant.......not maximum.”
I normally don’t want to get into these hitting discussions because of the time required to explain everything. And sometimes because of being a coward and not wanting to argue or defend my thoughts (which could take lots of time).
I try to read most everything though and have grown to respect yours and others knowledge and passion for hitting. However there’s one thing that has always confused me. I think either yourself or Blue Man once stated that what happens after contact is unimportant. Not to start an argument, but I believe what happens after contact is very important.
The similarities we see in most all great hitters includes what happens after contact. The fluid finish, follow through, bat path, etc should be a continuation of the total swing.
If you run great hitters video in reverse you will see that most all have a fluid path even backwards from finish to start. I think the good hitters are still hitting after they’ve made contact. Maybe it wasn’t you that said this earlier, if so I apologize. It’s just that your description of swing mechanics reminded me of that point.
Swingbuster,
You may just be one of the world’s biggest students of hitting. However, once in awhile I get lost in some of the words used in your discriptions. It’s not your fault that I am so stupid and don’t understand some of the terminology. But call it a hunch… I think there’s at least a couple others who don’t totally understand everything that you describe.
Anyway, keep up the good work and I will try to cipher it all. Not a complaint, just an admission.
PG
I don't recall saying everything after contact is unimportant.
I don't talk about the follow through much because it just happens after a swing is swung. What I learn from it are the clues it offers as to what may be wrong......or right.
I agree most hitters follow through similarly. In fact most mlb hitters are extremely similar from lag to contact to follow through.
I don't know that I agree that good hitters are still hitting after contact. Maybe it just your choice of words. I would say the direction and momentum of their swing is such that their follow throughs are similar and fluid.
But, I believe all the 'work' was done earlier in the launch phase. And, IMHO, the work is what has to be taught. Teach the work properly and the follow through will happen.
I don't recall saying everything after contact is unimportant.
I don't talk about the follow through much because it just happens after a swing is swung. What I learn from it are the clues it offers as to what may be wrong......or right.
I agree most hitters follow through similarly. In fact most mlb hitters are extremely similar from lag to contact to follow through.
I don't know that I agree that good hitters are still hitting after contact. Maybe it just your choice of words. I would say the direction and momentum of their swing is such that their follow throughs are similar and fluid.
But, I believe all the 'work' was done earlier in the launch phase. And, IMHO, the work is what has to be taught. Teach the work properly and the follow through will happen.
PG ...the difference in starting tall and starting wide can be linear stride momentum that is used to uncoil the hips. I think when this player feels he cannot fire his hips, he is ABSENT the stride momentum he was using when he started tall .
Watching Glaus one would think keeping the head still before toe touch could be a bad goal.
Watch his stride and head move until toe touch and then his perfect rotation around his secondary stance
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Glauss02.mpeg
Watching Glaus one would think keeping the head still before toe touch could be a bad goal.
Watch his stride and head move until toe touch and then his perfect rotation around his secondary stance
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Glauss02.mpeg
Teacherman,
True, from a pure physical standpoint hitters are done hitting at contact.
I have had some success talking to young hitters about the finish and worked backwards. I see lots of young hitters who do not finish their swings. They make contact and the bat drops as if it weighed 50 lbs. Whether it’s the arm throwing or the bat swinging, in my way of thinking, any interruption in a fluid arc is a warning sign and a fault. Not as big a fault as getting to the ball incorrectly, but never less a fault. I also believe players are still throwing the ball after it has been released. Of course there is deceleration that plays a part.
Of course the most important thing is what happens before and during contact. I believe you and others are more inclined to study the physical aspect of hitting and that is vitally important. I perhaps spend just as much time on the mental aspect of hitting. I believe in the end that’s the part that separates hitters.
Swingbuster,
For some reason I couldn’t get that clip so I went to the site mentioned. I saw two Glauss clips one from CF and one from the side. I believe it was the HR contest. I have seen Glauss many times. He does have a tendency to over-swing and he is a power first guy. This swing is not what I would teach to young players though no matter how much people might like it. Yes, other than the search for extra power and the body moving too much (linear) it is a good swing. Do you have any clips of him hitting in a live game. I would bet his swing would be a bit different. If you look at the first clip of Sosa (in an actual game) and the second clip (in HR contest) you will see a different swing. Not that he’s the best example.
I looked at some of the other clips on that site and Bonds kind of stood out to me. (who’d a guessed it). Other than the odd (spread out) position that Bagwell starts out of and his negative stride and hand drop, I really like his swing and he sure doesn’t have any problem firing the hips. I'm pretty sure his swing didn't happen overnight. And I’ve always thought Mark Magwire had a great swing. I know he was a power guy, but I think his swing mechanics would work for most anyone. He really improved his swing over the years and became very efficient for a power guy.
It is kind of fun looking at those clips. Even with the similarities in some things it proves there are many different styles of hitting.
True, from a pure physical standpoint hitters are done hitting at contact.
I have had some success talking to young hitters about the finish and worked backwards. I see lots of young hitters who do not finish their swings. They make contact and the bat drops as if it weighed 50 lbs. Whether it’s the arm throwing or the bat swinging, in my way of thinking, any interruption in a fluid arc is a warning sign and a fault. Not as big a fault as getting to the ball incorrectly, but never less a fault. I also believe players are still throwing the ball after it has been released. Of course there is deceleration that plays a part.
Of course the most important thing is what happens before and during contact. I believe you and others are more inclined to study the physical aspect of hitting and that is vitally important. I perhaps spend just as much time on the mental aspect of hitting. I believe in the end that’s the part that separates hitters.
Swingbuster,
For some reason I couldn’t get that clip so I went to the site mentioned. I saw two Glauss clips one from CF and one from the side. I believe it was the HR contest. I have seen Glauss many times. He does have a tendency to over-swing and he is a power first guy. This swing is not what I would teach to young players though no matter how much people might like it. Yes, other than the search for extra power and the body moving too much (linear) it is a good swing. Do you have any clips of him hitting in a live game. I would bet his swing would be a bit different. If you look at the first clip of Sosa (in an actual game) and the second clip (in HR contest) you will see a different swing. Not that he’s the best example.
I looked at some of the other clips on that site and Bonds kind of stood out to me. (who’d a guessed it). Other than the odd (spread out) position that Bagwell starts out of and his negative stride and hand drop, I really like his swing and he sure doesn’t have any problem firing the hips. I'm pretty sure his swing didn't happen overnight. And I’ve always thought Mark Magwire had a great swing. I know he was a power guy, but I think his swing mechanics would work for most anyone. He really improved his swing over the years and became very efficient for a power guy.
It is kind of fun looking at those clips. Even with the similarities in some things it proves there are many different styles of hitting.
PGStaff, I have said this many times......And, I couldn't be more convinced that I am correct in believing this....Here are two things that I am absolutely sure of......Once the bat contacts the ball, there is nothing that can be done to affect the flight of the ball......And, as much batspeed as possible should be released, absolutely used up, at bat/ball contact......
How can a hitter still be hitting after ball contact?.....I don't believe this is possible.....If there is batspeed available after ball contact, how is it not wasted batspeed?......It surely isn't being used to add distance to the ball in any way.....
The follow-through is a way to transition leftover swing momentum.....And, there will be some, but, in an efficient swing not very much because the hands and arms will go soft at ball contact once they release the built up batspeed.......
Mantle and Williams had lower follow-throughs than Mac and Bonds......However, they are all great hitters....They just didn't transition their leftover swing momentum the same.....
How can a hitter still be hitting after ball contact?.....I don't believe this is possible.....If there is batspeed available after ball contact, how is it not wasted batspeed?......It surely isn't being used to add distance to the ball in any way.....
The follow-through is a way to transition leftover swing momentum.....And, there will be some, but, in an efficient swing not very much because the hands and arms will go soft at ball contact once they release the built up batspeed.......
Mantle and Williams had lower follow-throughs than Mac and Bonds......However, they are all great hitters....They just didn't transition their leftover swing momentum the same.....
BlueDog,
We are not talking about bat speed here. We are talking about follow through. Everyone will agree that you want the best bat speed at contact. I just don't believe it's possible to shut it off or soften up exactly at contact. This gets back to margin of error and the inability to be absolutely perfect on every pitch. Perfect contact with perfect timing is the goal, but the best hit better than others without "perfect" timing. Actually the very best have perfect timing more than the others. All the hitters you've mentioned will have a fluid barrel arc some ending higher than others, but all will be continous. If I see a hitter who is not continous, he needs help.
True, except what happens after contact can have an adverse affect on what's happening before and during contact IMO.
I would rephrase that to "perfection would be getting the best bat speed at contact." You can't possibly get to it and immediately have it absolutely used up. There is nothing in athletics where you reach a peak and absolutely use it all up instantly. There's always a period of time that the bat will maintain close to the same speed before it slows down. It's just not possible to reach it and instantaniously have it "absolutely used up."
Sprinters try to get to maximum speed as quickly as possible. Some get there sooner than others. Once they get there their goal is to maintain that speed as long as possible. In fact, once they reach maximum speed they keep it for a very short while and then begin to slow down. If they just got there and used everything up they would simply fall down.
Same goes for pitchers, they do not stop immediately after letting go of the ball. The follow through is very important to a pitcher and it is equally important to a hitter IMO.
I'm not sure I can explain very well, but whether serving in tennis, hitting a golf ball, throwing a pitch, swinging a bat, pole vaulting, sprinting, shot putting or anything else there is always the finish. Look very closely at the hitting videos and it will become crystal clear.
I certainly have no interest in changing your mind about anything. We just have a difference of opinion on the value of the finish. And I don't quite understand what you mean by going soft at contact. Or do you mean going soft right after contact? I think I know the answer because of some past threads about the importance of hand strength.
We are not talking about bat speed here. We are talking about follow through. Everyone will agree that you want the best bat speed at contact. I just don't believe it's possible to shut it off or soften up exactly at contact. This gets back to margin of error and the inability to be absolutely perfect on every pitch. Perfect contact with perfect timing is the goal, but the best hit better than others without "perfect" timing. Actually the very best have perfect timing more than the others. All the hitters you've mentioned will have a fluid barrel arc some ending higher than others, but all will be continous. If I see a hitter who is not continous, he needs help.
quote:Once the bat contacts the ball, there is nothing that can be done to affect the flight of the ball.
True, except what happens after contact can have an adverse affect on what's happening before and during contact IMO.
quote:And, as much batspeed as possible should be released, absolutely used up, at bat/ball contact......
I would rephrase that to "perfection would be getting the best bat speed at contact." You can't possibly get to it and immediately have it absolutely used up. There is nothing in athletics where you reach a peak and absolutely use it all up instantly. There's always a period of time that the bat will maintain close to the same speed before it slows down. It's just not possible to reach it and instantaniously have it "absolutely used up."
Sprinters try to get to maximum speed as quickly as possible. Some get there sooner than others. Once they get there their goal is to maintain that speed as long as possible. In fact, once they reach maximum speed they keep it for a very short while and then begin to slow down. If they just got there and used everything up they would simply fall down.
Same goes for pitchers, they do not stop immediately after letting go of the ball. The follow through is very important to a pitcher and it is equally important to a hitter IMO.
I'm not sure I can explain very well, but whether serving in tennis, hitting a golf ball, throwing a pitch, swinging a bat, pole vaulting, sprinting, shot putting or anything else there is always the finish. Look very closely at the hitting videos and it will become crystal clear.
I certainly have no interest in changing your mind about anything. We just have a difference of opinion on the value of the finish. And I don't quite understand what you mean by going soft at contact. Or do you mean going soft right after contact? I think I know the answer because of some past threads about the importance of hand strength.
Adam LaRoche;
Adam traveled with our Goodwill Series teams to Australia in 1996 and 1997. His father was one of our coaches for four years.
Adam played perfect 1b and pitched. His swing was the same as it now, except he has learned the strike zone as it pertains to a hitter.
It is hopeful Adam will return as Delmon Young did last year as a coach.
Bob W.
Adam traveled with our Goodwill Series teams to Australia in 1996 and 1997. His father was one of our coaches for four years.
Adam played perfect 1b and pitched. His swing was the same as it now, except he has learned the strike zone as it pertains to a hitter.
It is hopeful Adam will return as Delmon Young did last year as a coach.
Bob W.
Now we have gotten somewhere on this thread. It has been alot of fun and very informative. I believe that the follow through in the swing is important. It in my opinion it is teaching to finish the swing. Yes after contact the follow through will not add anything to the ball because it is gone. But you want kids to finish the swing balanced and under controll. Is it the most important phase of the swing NO. But it is still part of the swing. It is no different than throwing a ball. Once the ball leaves the hand does the follow through have anything to do with the flight of the ball ( how can it the ball has already left the hand). I believe it is the finish that finishes the act that you are trying to accomplish. Agree or not its ok. Just my opinion
"True, except what happens after contact can have an adverse affect on what's happening before and during contact IMO."
PGStaff, I have never been a fan of sentences which begin with "true, but", or, "true, except".....It's either true or it isn't.....And, if it is true, the "but" or "except" doesn't matter, IMO......
I have never liked to compare hitting with other athletic movements for several reasons.....Not the least of which is that, truthfully, we don't know how they compare, so nothing is resolved in doing so..........
Hands go soft at contact?.....There are two theories at play here.....The old "swing through the ball" mentality and the "release everything" at ball contact mentality.....I subscribe to the latter......I want to see the handpath radius tighten just before ball contact and begin the turn back toward the catcher....This technique is called "hooking" and speeds up the bat as the handpath radius tightens just before ball contact.....The hands must go soft to allow this to happen.....The grip plays an important role in this, also....
I'm thinking you subscribe to the "hit through the ball" mentality......This allows for hand and arm extension instead of hooking.....With this technique there will be unused batspeed in the follow-through.....There is no way to avoid this from happening with this technique.....Extension is the way hitting has been taught for many years.....I have said before, I don't teach conventional baseball wisdom.....I am considered an outsider....This is my comfort zone and where I want to be.....Heck, I've never even slept in a Holiday Inn Express......
PGStaff, I have never been a fan of sentences which begin with "true, but", or, "true, except".....It's either true or it isn't.....And, if it is true, the "but" or "except" doesn't matter, IMO......
I have never liked to compare hitting with other athletic movements for several reasons.....Not the least of which is that, truthfully, we don't know how they compare, so nothing is resolved in doing so..........
Hands go soft at contact?.....There are two theories at play here.....The old "swing through the ball" mentality and the "release everything" at ball contact mentality.....I subscribe to the latter......I want to see the handpath radius tighten just before ball contact and begin the turn back toward the catcher....This technique is called "hooking" and speeds up the bat as the handpath radius tightens just before ball contact.....The hands must go soft to allow this to happen.....The grip plays an important role in this, also....
I'm thinking you subscribe to the "hit through the ball" mentality......This allows for hand and arm extension instead of hooking.....With this technique there will be unused batspeed in the follow-through.....There is no way to avoid this from happening with this technique.....Extension is the way hitting has been taught for many years.....I have said before, I don't teach conventional baseball wisdom.....I am considered an outsider....This is my comfort zone and where I want to be.....Heck, I've never even slept in a Holiday Inn Express......
BlueDog,
It is "TRUE" that I don’t completely agree with you, "BUT" I do appreciate someone who sticks up for what he believes in.
It is "TRUE" that I don’t completely agree with you, "BUT" I do appreciate someone who sticks up for what he believes in.
Coach May,
Regarding your son staying back on offspeed, Teacherman covered the bases very well when he said, “May be mechanical. May be strength. May be vision. May be mental. May be all the above”.
If I were to guess which one may be playing the biggest role right now, I would suspect strength.
You might be able to confirm this by having him use a –5 bat and see if he automatically is able to improve his ability to keep his weight back on off-speed.
Any time I want to see into the future, I have my boys use a lighter bat. (I usually reserve this for offseason training)
Once again, this is just a guess but I’ve got a feeling he is going to go from an outstanding 15 year old hitter to an outstanding hitter of any age with just a little more testosterone even if everything else stayed the same. Congratulations to you both.
Regarding your son staying back on offspeed, Teacherman covered the bases very well when he said, “May be mechanical. May be strength. May be vision. May be mental. May be all the above”.
If I were to guess which one may be playing the biggest role right now, I would suspect strength.
You might be able to confirm this by having him use a –5 bat and see if he automatically is able to improve his ability to keep his weight back on off-speed.
Any time I want to see into the future, I have my boys use a lighter bat. (I usually reserve this for offseason training)
Once again, this is just a guess but I’ve got a feeling he is going to go from an outstanding 15 year old hitter to an outstanding hitter of any age with just a little more testosterone even if everything else stayed the same. Congratulations to you both.
SBK
That is a great idea about seeing into the future and diagnosing lunge.
That is a great idea about seeing into the future and diagnosing lunge.
TX05Dad,
Your comments regarding the coach widening your son’s stance, certainly raises red flags with me. The timing of this to coincide with your son’s hitting successes is especially troubling. I believe your suspicion appears to be well warranted.
From what you’ve said, it sounds like your son was doing an excellent job of matching the trajectory of the incoming ball. When a player practically needs to apologies for hitting a homerun, that’s a pretty good tip there’s a problem.
It appears that your son’s coach is doing what pitchers were having a tough time doing, getting him out and keeping the ball in the yard. Good luck.
Your comments regarding the coach widening your son’s stance, certainly raises red flags with me. The timing of this to coincide with your son’s hitting successes is especially troubling. I believe your suspicion appears to be well warranted.
From what you’ve said, it sounds like your son was doing an excellent job of matching the trajectory of the incoming ball. When a player practically needs to apologies for hitting a homerun, that’s a pretty good tip there’s a problem.
It appears that your son’s coach is doing what pitchers were having a tough time doing, getting him out and keeping the ball in the yard. Good luck.
Thanks for your comments SBK. The timing is what was bothering me. He was in baseball class all last fall, why not change him then. He was five for eleven in the first three scrimmages when he hit the home run, with a double and a triple that was a line drive over the center fielders head. I would say his swing is very close to the Glauss clip, with less initial forward movement. But after reading PG's comments about wide being a good thing, maybe changing now is better than later. The boy has to deal with the coach on his own, after all he is eighteen. I just try and give him the best advice I can when he asks.
TXDad,
Wide is a personal preference of mine. It does not pertain to every hitter. There have been some great narrow stanced guys. It just seems like we are seeing more and more hitters spreading out farther.
Regarding your son I have no opinion. Haven't seen him... or have we? It is possible the coach is just trying to help him. On the other hand the coach might not be helping him.
I do think it's a good thing that you are concerned. Young boys need good parents much more than they need a good coach. I think even all the coaches on here would agree.
Best of luck to your son.
Wide is a personal preference of mine. It does not pertain to every hitter. There have been some great narrow stanced guys. It just seems like we are seeing more and more hitters spreading out farther.
Regarding your son I have no opinion. Haven't seen him... or have we? It is possible the coach is just trying to help him. On the other hand the coach might not be helping him.
I do think it's a good thing that you are concerned. Young boys need good parents much more than they need a good coach. I think even all the coaches on here would agree.
Best of luck to your son.
PG
You guys have seen him. Plays for Austn Baseball Club Blue in the summer. He was in East Cobb last summer and Ft. Myers last fall. Bats third.
You guys have seen him. Plays for Austn Baseball Club Blue in the summer. He was in East Cobb last summer and Ft. Myers last fall. Bats third.
