Any opinions on this thought process?
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Why does everyone think major D-I? Good question, and it opens up a thread that can go in many directions.
The initial responses will undoubtedly include exposure and limelight references, higher level of competition claims, and all the usual stuff.
My question is......... the MLB Draft usually includes about 600 kids who never played a D1 college baseball game, or any college baseball game for that matter??
My question is......... each and every year, Draft eligible Juniors and Seniors on D1 rosters are bypassed in the Draft, not selected !!
Exposure is everywhere if you are a good player.
D1 does not guarantee playing any level of Pro baseball. So why D1 ??
The initial responses will undoubtedly include exposure and limelight references, higher level of competition claims, and all the usual stuff.
My question is......... the MLB Draft usually includes about 600 kids who never played a D1 college baseball game, or any college baseball game for that matter??
My question is......... each and every year, Draft eligible Juniors and Seniors on D1 rosters are bypassed in the Draft, not selected !!
Exposure is everywhere if you are a good player.
D1 does not guarantee playing any level of Pro baseball. So why D1 ??
OLD
Players bypassed in the draft are usually not deemed prospects by the pros regardless of what level they are playing at.
There are great college players who are not pro prospects\\
There are great HS players who are not college prospects much less Pro prospects
There is a real world out there !!!!
Players bypassed in the draft are usually not deemed prospects by the pros regardless of what level they are playing at.
There are great college players who are not pro prospects\\
There are great HS players who are not college prospects much less Pro prospects
There is a real world out there !!!!
Is the coaching better? The facilities? Lower barrier to admission at big schools?
I cannot thank you guys/gals enough for your insight, information and experiences that I have had access to through this board. Until my son went through this process, I too probably thought unless you sign with a D1, player was not worthy. Little, or should I say nothing, did I know about 11.7 scholarships, qualification, the draft process and the like. After a crazy recruiting ride, my son has committed with an awesome JUCO (placed 3rd in the JUCO World Series 2006) and the pride and excitment he has in his decision, you would think he was just drafted. I have still had to defend my son's ability to some because he decided on JUCO. I think some of that mindset is just due to their lack of knowledge of the process. All I know is his education at this point will be fully paid for, he will have the opportunity to transfer to that D1 school and with no doubt, he will have the opportunity to be seen. The bottom line is his performance -- no matter where he plays.
southernmom....
Congratulations to your son on his choice!!!!! There are families out there like yours, that understand what is important. Great job!!
Congratulations to your son on his choice!!!!! There are families out there like yours, that understand what is important. Great job!!
There are some solid baseball programs that aren't major D1. And some of the are excellent academic schools - better academically than most of the D1's.
OS8, Better players are drafted ---- makes no difference where they play.
Back to the original question ---- we’re talking college baseball here right? ---- Why is D-1 baseball preferred over other divisions? I think it’s obvious. The road to Omaha goes through the D-1s. The athletic reputations of the D-1 sets them apart when players are looking to move up to play college ball. Field facilities, training facilities, fan base, equipment, newspaper/ television/internet/ and radio coverage keeps the D-1 in front of the players. The staff support is much deeper with on site medical personnel, exercise trainers and such. You also have to look at how the university looks at their baseball team. D-1 baseball for the most part is regarded as an integral part of the university and players are looked on by some students as being special. The basic game is the same at all levels but the atmosphere around games at different levels are different as night and day.
Fungo
Back to the original question ---- we’re talking college baseball here right? ---- Why is D-1 baseball preferred over other divisions? I think it’s obvious. The road to Omaha goes through the D-1s. The athletic reputations of the D-1 sets them apart when players are looking to move up to play college ball. Field facilities, training facilities, fan base, equipment, newspaper/ television/internet/ and radio coverage keeps the D-1 in front of the players. The staff support is much deeper with on site medical personnel, exercise trainers and such. You also have to look at how the university looks at their baseball team. D-1 baseball for the most part is regarded as an integral part of the university and players are looked on by some students as being special. The basic game is the same at all levels but the atmosphere around games at different levels are different as night and day.
Fungo
I would also like to say that I read/post on a few other message boards. Unlike the other boards, the folks on this board are always informative, supportive, helpful and upbeat with their posts. On one board, I have come across many posters who respond with a negative, sarcastic or down right rude comment (especially since I am a mom). I have been reading this board for 3 years and have not posted much due to my negative results on other boards. This board has been such a source for me. Thanks again to all!!!!!!!
quote:On one board, I have come across many posters who respond with a negative, sarcastic or down right rude comment (especially since I am a mom).
southernmom - welcome to the hsbbweb and I have enjoyed all your comments thus far - please post often
We get some rough comments here occasionally but those are few and far between and they will be dealt with accordingly.I liked this other comment you made:
quote:The bottom line is his performance -- no matter where he plays.
I think back to last years CWS. The winning pitcher was Jonah Nickerson and he was drafted in the 8th round I believe. In the D3 CWS, the winning pitcher from Marietta was also drafted in the 8th round. Thus, it is about performance as you suggest.
I think exposure does play a role and the thought of climbing the highest mountains is a natural human emotion. Why don't all mountain climbers just settle for the mountains we have here in the US? Why do some risk all and attempt Mount Everest? D1 baseball is not an end all or be all. There are more risks involved imho. The rewards are also higher as some of the things Fungo suggests. At the end of the day, each player has to be satisfied that the college they choose is the right one for them.
Because most parents and players have no clue about their talents and where they can actually play. Good example
2 players at the same high school attend a tournament at a top 25 college.
Player 1 a pitcher throws 90-91mph. Looks at the college roster and sees 20 pitchers.Says thanks but no thanks. Signs with another Div 1 college nearby, makes all conference freshman year.
Player 2 hits several balls over the scoreboard in BP. His dad starts to talk like he is Scott Boras now. His kid signs with that college for $300. Despite a 45 man roster and 6 other players at his position.Player 2 is reshirted and no longer at that college.Player 2 was offered alot of $$$ to attend the same college as Player 1 and turned it down.
2 players at the same high school attend a tournament at a top 25 college.
Player 1 a pitcher throws 90-91mph. Looks at the college roster and sees 20 pitchers.Says thanks but no thanks. Signs with another Div 1 college nearby, makes all conference freshman year.
Player 2 hits several balls over the scoreboard in BP. His dad starts to talk like he is Scott Boras now. His kid signs with that college for $300. Despite a 45 man roster and 6 other players at his position.Player 2 is reshirted and no longer at that college.Player 2 was offered alot of $$$ to attend the same college as Player 1 and turned it down.
Thanks ClevelandDad. I have to agree somewhat with Frank's post. As a parent, it is usually hard to be objective as far as your son's ability. Our opinion does not matter -- it is the opinion of others. One more addition to my bottom line -- you have to be playing for any of it to matter.
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
OS8, ---- we’re talking college baseball here right? ---- Why is D-1 baseball preferred over other divisions? I think it’s obvious. The road to Omaha goes through the D-1s. The athletic reputations of the D-1 sets them apart when players are looking to move up to play college ball. Field facilities, training facilities, fan base, equipment, newspaper/ television/internet/ and radio coverage keeps the D-1 in front of the players. The staff support is much deeper with on site medical personnel, exercise trainers and such. You also have to look at how the university looks at their baseball team. D-1 baseball for the most part is regarded as an integral part of the university and players are looked on by some students as being special. The basic game is the same at all levels but the atmosphere around games at different levels are different as night and day.
Fungo
**** so Omaha is the answer? That means what I said in my post above:
"The initial responses will undoubtedly include exposure and limelight references, higher level of competition claims, and all the usual stuff."
The D2, D3, and NAIA titles mean much less than Omaha? Not to the players, I would imagine.
Nearly 300 D1 teams dreams of Omaha remain unfulfilled each and every year. If Omaha is one of the reasons of "why D1?" Not much too hang a hat on!!
Say a bigtime pitcher, excellent student wants to earn a certain degree. The top rated institution for that degree happens to be a D3. Top 10 D1 baseball factory offers the curriculum, but is not noted for this academic designation. Make your college choice.
What result is the player trying to achieve other than Omaha?
quote:I think some of that mindset is just due to their lack of knowledge of the process. All I know is his education at this point will be fully paid for, he will have the opportunity to transfer to that D1 school and with no doubt, he will have the opportunity to be seen. The bottom line is his performance -- no matter where he plays.
An astute observation.................
OS8
The only thing that give's a player a chance?
Is the Player himself.
What that player decide's to do is that Player's choice. Period.
Nothing, No Showcase, no Top HS team, Top Tournament team, D1, D2, D3, NAIA, Independent League.
Is going to make them become a Pro Player.
It will help them in life, and it will help in there training.
But it's still the player that has to shine.
I know my son and I talked about his choice over Christmas break.
And what he said to me, as far as baseball goes.
He's able to get bigger, stronger, and have 3 plus SQ. Meal's a Day. A structured environment
If that make's since.
Plus an education.
He would not get that support in Pro Ball??
Your on your own.
All your meal's, were you sleep at night, how you get to the ball park. The workout's are on your own. At some gym with no support. And then you get to come home and live with your parent's in the off season??
So that is one reason to go to a D1, or a D2, or a D3. NAIA, JUCO.
It's all a big **** shoot anyway?
You play the game, wherever your at.
If you have the talent, they will notice.
And give you an opportuinity.
I look at Baseball as a mean's to an end.
Get as much out of the game as possible.
It's a tool to be used for your betterment, ( Is that a word )?
Plus it's fun to play and watch.
EH
quote:I know kids get drafted out of D2/3/JUCO each and every year, but the perception is that the MD1's give one a better chance, which isn't necessarily true.
The only thing that give's a player a chance?
Is the Player himself.
What that player decide's to do is that Player's choice. Period.
Nothing, No Showcase, no Top HS team, Top Tournament team, D1, D2, D3, NAIA, Independent League.
Is going to make them become a Pro Player.
It will help them in life, and it will help in there training.
But it's still the player that has to shine.
I know my son and I talked about his choice over Christmas break.
And what he said to me, as far as baseball goes.
He's able to get bigger, stronger, and have 3 plus SQ. Meal's a Day. A structured environment
If that make's since.
Plus an education.
He would not get that support in Pro Ball??
Your on your own.
All your meal's, were you sleep at night, how you get to the ball park. The workout's are on your own. At some gym with no support. And then you get to come home and live with your parent's in the off season??
So that is one reason to go to a D1, or a D2, or a D3. NAIA, JUCO.
It's all a big **** shoot anyway?
You play the game, wherever your at.
If you have the talent, they will notice.
And give you an opportuinity.
I look at Baseball as a mean's to an end.
Get as much out of the game as possible.
It's a tool to be used for your betterment, ( Is that a word )?
Plus it's fun to play and watch.
EH
Look at Major League rosters.
Over 50% never even stepped foot in any college - at any level.
And another 30% or so went to JUCO's and very small colleges.
The picking is slim.
Over 50% never even stepped foot in any college - at any level.
And another 30% or so went to JUCO's and very small colleges.
The picking is slim.
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Look at Major League rosters.
Over 50% never even stepped foot in any college - at any level.
And another 30% or so went to JUCO's and very small colleges.
The picking is slim.
**** I referred to this, but got shot down by Omaha........thus is thy quotation*****
"My question is......... the MLB Draft usually includes about 600 kids who never played a D1 college baseball game, or any college baseball game for that matter??
My question is......... each and every year, Draft eligible Juniors and Seniors on D1 rosters are bypassed in the Draft, not selected !!
Exposure is everywhere if you are a good player."
*****If I am the only guy who feels that kids ALSO use D1 college as a means to advance to Pro ball, then the rest are lying to themselves. I have heard too many good HS ballplayers shrill at the academic side of college baseball only wanting to get drafted, because THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT TO DO until some expert says they ain't good enough.
Don't tell me a college education is a bankable future. That is very naive' thinking, and a broad-based fallacy. If a kid wants to go to college to get educated for a career, my hat is off to them. College baseball for the prospects is a venue to advance.
OS8,
This is the thing that kill's me the most with your post's.
You think that a player that chooses College over pro ball is somehow not wanting to play baseball bad enough.
That they the Player does not have the desire are HEART.
That's were we disagree.
My son has as big as heart as any player out there!
It's just a personel choice, no more then that.
And if you don't think he has heart.
Put your player in the batter's box against him?
Better yet pitch to him??
EH
This is the thing that kill's me the most with your post's.
You think that a player that chooses College over pro ball is somehow not wanting to play baseball bad enough.
That they the Player does not have the desire are HEART.
That's were we disagree.
My son has as big as heart as any player out there!
It's just a personel choice, no more then that.
And if you don't think he has heart.
Put your player in the batter's box against him?
Better yet pitch to him??
EH
Ok why "major D-1"
I can't answer for my Son and I definitely can't answer for anyone elses. If you know why your Son makes decisions in general (hair style, music , girls, friends, clothes) feel free to fill me in.
Anyway some reasons for "major D-1"
-Ego
-feeling of importance
-Major campus life, attending Football games with 60+K of your closest friends
-Competition
-Conference schedule
-College World Series
-Baseball Facilities (locker room, club house, equipment)
-Conditioning facilities and training staff
-Level of Academic facilities for athletes and tutoring facilities
-Coaching Staff and the number of Coaches
-Schools financial commitment to program
-Program reputation and history and to be part of that history
- The degree
-Career opportunities after baseball
-The community support of the baseball program
-Pride in playing for the school
-and I forgot...the the girls LOL
I know there are many other reasons and also that some if not many may be available at other programs, but if a player has the opportunity to play at a program (or type of program) that he has dreamed about and watched on TV...who can blame them for going after part of their dream.
I can't answer for my Son and I definitely can't answer for anyone elses. If you know why your Son makes decisions in general (hair style, music , girls, friends, clothes) feel free to fill me in.
Anyway some reasons for "major D-1"
-Ego
-feeling of importance
-Major campus life, attending Football games with 60+K of your closest friends
-Competition
-Conference schedule
-College World Series
-Baseball Facilities (locker room, club house, equipment)
-Conditioning facilities and training staff
-Level of Academic facilities for athletes and tutoring facilities
-Coaching Staff and the number of Coaches
-Schools financial commitment to program
-Program reputation and history and to be part of that history
- The degree
-Career opportunities after baseball
-The community support of the baseball program
-Pride in playing for the school
-and I forgot...the the girls LOL
I know there are many other reasons and also that some if not many may be available at other programs, but if a player has the opportunity to play at a program (or type of program) that he has dreamed about and watched on TV...who can blame them for going after part of their dream.
"One more addition to my bottom line -- you have to be playing for any of it to matter."
Southernmom, you have a lot to add to this site. Your posts in this thread, including this one, are very insightful.
Personally, I think the idea of DI in baseball mirrors the college choices being made in other sports as well as for non athletes.
One only needs to look at the popularity of a university like UCLA. If I recall right, they had over 60,000 applications last year for a freshman class of less than 5,000. The Ivy's and schools like Stanford accept less than 5% of the applicants...and applications are on the rise.
I mentioned a few months back about an article in the SF Chronicle describing the pressures existent in seeking admission to Ivy's and other name schools. The article referred to the students as "trophy kids" and talked about how they do things they would never otherwise do in order to expand their resume hoping to increase the admissions chances.
IMO, the discussion about DI being a roadmap..or not, to professional baseball misses the mark.
DI is considered the "best" so that is where many aspire. On the academic side, Princeton Review, US News and others make a fortune publicizing the "best" universities in America. I don't think they are doing anything different on the academic side than happens on the athletic/baseball side.
American society is infatuated with the "best"...especially when it comes to our children. Oftentimes the illusion of the "best" is created by visibility in the media. That, to me, has never been more true than the current alliance of the NCAA and the major broadcast networks. With the expansion of the CWS, superregional and regional play on TV, more will think DI, whether they can play at that level or not.
I am not sure it is much different than the 55,000 applicant's rejected from UCLA each year. Each had a reason to apply, whether they had a chance of acceptance or not.
Southernmom, you have a lot to add to this site. Your posts in this thread, including this one, are very insightful.
Personally, I think the idea of DI in baseball mirrors the college choices being made in other sports as well as for non athletes.
One only needs to look at the popularity of a university like UCLA. If I recall right, they had over 60,000 applications last year for a freshman class of less than 5,000. The Ivy's and schools like Stanford accept less than 5% of the applicants...and applications are on the rise.
I mentioned a few months back about an article in the SF Chronicle describing the pressures existent in seeking admission to Ivy's and other name schools. The article referred to the students as "trophy kids" and talked about how they do things they would never otherwise do in order to expand their resume hoping to increase the admissions chances.
IMO, the discussion about DI being a roadmap..or not, to professional baseball misses the mark.
DI is considered the "best" so that is where many aspire. On the academic side, Princeton Review, US News and others make a fortune publicizing the "best" universities in America. I don't think they are doing anything different on the academic side than happens on the athletic/baseball side.
American society is infatuated with the "best"...especially when it comes to our children. Oftentimes the illusion of the "best" is created by visibility in the media. That, to me, has never been more true than the current alliance of the NCAA and the major broadcast networks. With the expansion of the CWS, superregional and regional play on TV, more will think DI, whether they can play at that level or not.
I am not sure it is much different than the 55,000 applicant's rejected from UCLA each year. Each had a reason to apply, whether they had a chance of acceptance or not.
OS8, I only said the ROAD to Omaha goes through the D-1 programs making the assumption that everyone considers the College World Series the pinnacle of college baseball. Trust me the D-1 experience can be very rewarding WITHOUT a trip to Omaha. PG also rates their showcase participants giving the best players a “D-1” ranking. That alone would influence the young player to want to play at the D-1 level. I’m not trying to sell D-1 programs to anyone I’m simply trying to explain WHY I think everyone wants to go to the big D-1s. Prior to selecting a college my son walked up to the empty stadium and looked over Auburn’s field (rated #1 by Baseball America) and said: “This is where I want to play baseball”. His premature decision had nothing to do with fit, academics, exposure, pro scouts, coaches, or competition. It was only the aura that surrounds a major D-1 complex. Luckily the fit was good and everything else fell into place and the D-1 experience was terrific for him. Unfortunately, and I think TRHit is alluding to this, that same mesmerizing aura can spell disaster for a player that ignores the warning signs and allows the “D-1 effect” to modify their selection.
WRONG!!! My son was drafted in the 5th round out of high school. He went to college for three years and was drafted in the 6th round. Obviously he didn't use the D-1 to advance in the pro draft ---even if he knew he would drop a round he would go the college route without hesitation.
quote:If I am the only guy who feels that kids ALSO use D1 college as a means to advance to Pro ball, then the rest are lying to themselves.
WRONG!!! My son was drafted in the 5th round out of high school. He went to college for three years and was drafted in the 6th round. Obviously he didn't use the D-1 to advance in the pro draft ---even if he knew he would drop a round he would go the college route without hesitation.
quote:Originally posted by Novice Dad:
I can't answer for my Son and I definitely can't answer for anyone elses. If you know why your Son makes decisions in general (hair style, music , girls, friends, clothes) fell free to fill me in.
Novicedad,
Aint that the truth - LOL
I chose to go to a D-1 college (to play baseball) years ago for three reasons:
1) Girls
2) Proximity to Italian restaurants.
3) More Girls.
Baseball actually had nothing to do with it. LOL
Excellent post infielddad! 
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
OS8, I only said the ROAD to Omaha goes through the D-1 programs making the assumption that everyone considers the College World Series the pinnacle of college baseball. Trust me the D-1 experience can be very rewarding WITHOUT a trip to Omaha. PG also rates their showcase participants giving the best players a “D-1” ranking. That alone would influence the young player to want to play at the D-1 level. I’m not trying to sell D-1 programs to anyone I’m simply trying to explain WHY I think everyone wants to go to the big D-1s. Prior to selecting a college my son walked up to the empty stadium and looked over Auburn’s field (rated #1 by Baseball America) and said: “This is where I want to play baseball”. His premature decision had nothing to do with fit, academics, exposure, pro scouts, coaches, or competition. It was only the aura that surrounds a major D-1 complex. Luckily the fit was good and everything else fell into place and the D-1 experience was terrific for him. Unfortunately, and I think TRHit is alluding to this, that same mesmerizing aura can spell disaster for a player that ignores the warning signs and allows the “D-1 effect” to modify their selection.quote:If I am the only guy who feels that kids ALSO use D1 college as a means to advance to Pro ball, then the rest are lying to themselves.
WRONG!!! My son was drafted in the 5th round out of high school. He went to college for three years and was drafted in the 6th round. Obviously he didn't use the D-1 to advance in the pro draft ---even if he knew he would drop a round he would go the college route without hesitation.
***I said D1 is no guarantee to advance!!
***Auburns field is top-notch.......the place I wanted the boy to end up, not in the cards, so move on!!
I chose to go to a D-1 college (to play baseball) years ago for three reasons:
1) Girls
I would have gone to Florida!!
I aint complaining. LOL
Plus - the Italian food in Florida has always been sub par.
Plus - the Italian food in Florida has always been sub par.
quote:Originally posted by southernmom:
I cannot thank you guys/gals enough for your insight, information and experiences that I have had access to through this board. Until my son went through this process, I too probably thought unless you sign with a D1, player was not worthy. Little, or should I say nothing, did I know about 11.7 scholarships, qualification, the draft process and the like. After a crazy recruiting ride, my son has committed with an awesome JUCO (placed 3rd in the JUCO World Series 2006) and the pride and excitment he has in his decision, you would think he was just drafted. I have still had to defend my son's ability to some because he decided on JUCO. I think some of that mindset is just due to their lack of knowledge of the process. All I know is his education at this point will be fully paid for, he will have the opportunity to transfer to that D1 school and with no doubt, he will have the opportunity to be seen. The bottom line is his performance -- no matter where he plays.
Southernmom,
Welcome to the HSBBW, there is ALWAYS room for moms here!
I think your post sums up the question asked. Until one begins the process, most players aspire to play at D1 schools. Then parents and players begin to realize the difference, even difference between the larger D1 programs and the mid and lower D1 schools. Lack of knowledge usually is the main culprit.
Finding the right fit is most important and for some that fit is found at different schools, different divisions, JUCOs and NAIAs.
Your sons education is fully paid for and he will have a chance to transfer later on. What more could one ask for? That is the goal. Congratulations.
I think that Fungo and Novice Dad covered most of the points regarding why does everyone think major D1.
I think that the EH has covered the fact that in the end, when given an opportunity, it's a personal choice.
Attending a larger D1 for the opportunity to advance to professional ball is not a reason to choose a larger D1, though many do. The main purpose of going to school, any school, is to get an education, period. Baseball is the icing on the cake and a means to subsidize one's education. A top D1 team is NOT made up of all future pro prospects, in fact, as pointed out, most will not go onto play at a higher level.
Since my son attends one of those higher level D1 schools, I will say, just as I have done on many occassions, ask iitg, this is NOT a choice for everyone.
Last week son began his third season. He has had ONE day weekend start. At a smaller program he most likely would have been a weekend starter all along. At programs such as the one he attends, in conference games, as a freshman or sophmore, you only get a start if there is no junior or senior to start. His coach beleives in experience, though the better player may be younger, that is just the way it is. This dilemma makes for a very big decision in the final hour.
Yes, son has been on a team that won a conference championship and has played in Omaha, and loved it all through the ups and downs and the stress (you can't imagine the stress), but I often wonder sometimes if he would have preferred playing for a smaller program and taken a larger role. He is by NO means unhappy and has done well, but never knowing what role he will play from one day to the next has not been easy. He has been fortunate to have put in more time than most of the pitchers he began with, he has been fortunate in that sense. For him the trade off has been excellent coaching, from one of the best pitching coaches in the country, and coaches who will not sacrifice a pitchers health for a win, a very big consideration when making a decision.
....it's mainly just the girls.
tigerpawmom -- I enjoy reading your posts. You have such a kind, honest, caring tone in your posts. The greatest joy of all of this is each player gets to make their own choices, as there is no right or wrong, just different paths. We all see things from a different perspective and this site has been a valuable tool in our decision making.
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by southernmom:
For him the trade off has been excellent coaching, from one of the best pitching coaches in the country, and coaches who will not sacrifice a pitchers health for a win, a very big consideration when making a decision.
TPM...excellent point about pitchers (and I apologize if this goes on another tangent), but it is my impression that with stronger programs there are stronger pitching staffs which means not relying on 1 or 2 studs and putting a ton of innings on them(I know there our exceptions)...in other threads we've talked about PAP (Pitcher abuse Points) and many of the higher #'s are at the smaller programs D-1 programs. I have no idea about D-2 or D-3 schools but if you maintain the same logic, the abuse factor could be similar, and that will be without the medical/training staff to assist in recovery between appearances.
quote:Originally posted by southernmom:
tigerpawmom -- I enjoy reading your posts. You have such a kind, honest, caring tone in your posts.
Thanks very much, but I am sure there are those who would not agree.
quote:I have no idea about D-2 or D-3 schools but if you maintain the same logic, the abuse factor could be similar, and that will be without the medical/training staff to assist in recovery between appearances.
That is really too broad a brush, IMO. Overuse occurs at every level and solid use of pitchers occurs at every level. I can provide you with very comparative examples at the DI level last year and the DIII level in 2004. With some exposure, I think you will find this is a coaching issue/preference, not associated with the level of NCAA play.
Also, I am not sure where this idea that non DI's don't provide adequate medical/training staff support. From our experience, it is just not the case. DIII may incorporate a player's family medical insurance as primary and the school's as secondary, but our son had access to excellent trainers and the best orthopedists in San Antonio when they were needed.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
That is really too broad a brush, IMO. Overuse occurs at every level and solid use of pitchers occurs at every level. I can provide you with very comparative examples at the DI level last year and the DIII level in 2004. With some exposure, I think you will find this is a coaching issue/preference, not associated with the level of NCAA play.
Also, I am not sure where this idea that non DI's don't provide adequate medical/training staff support. From our experience, it is just not the case. DIII may incorporate a player's family medical insurance as primary and the school's as secondary, but our son had access to excellent trainers and the best orthopedists in San Antonio when they were needed.
I am not saying that D-3's do not care for their athletes, but it is my opinion that the larger programs have access to a more comprehensive "University on campus" training staff and equipment due to budgets and commitment to athletic programs (primarily due to revenue producing sports most likely).
Using TPM's Clemson U as an example
the school has 5 trainers, 11 Grad asst trainers, and 15 student trainers based on their website. I realize that they all do not support the baseball team, but at the same time based on schools that I know at the D-3 level the trainer and their student assts must cover all sport programs and the training room is not staffed throughout the day. I am in no way saying that D-3's do not attend to their athletes buttheir resources may be more limited. This also goes for smaller D-1 programs as well. This does not include the strenght and conditioning staff (full-time staff of 5) and nutrionist.
In regards to Pitcher abuse you are correct abuse happens at all levels. Here is a link for D-1 by team I beleive 100,000 and below is where you want to be. There are examples of schools big and small that did well and poorly with this stat. My inference is that that stronger programs have stronger/deeper staffs which may translate to lower abuse points. That would be the same at D-2 or D-3 IMO. The stronger programs are deeper at all levels.
UNC 81715
Clem 26205
UVA 31150
Wake 9450
South Carolina 139282
Alabama 283895
Old Dominion 678280
Georgia Tech 75324
Georgia 46956
Oregon State 73347
Rice 75875
Southeast Missouri State 950992
South Alabama 998646
NC A&T 462131
Dartmouth 320265
Alabama State 1058726
Pitching Staff abuse Points
To provide a contrast, DIII's usually sponsor less teams, have less athletes in competition, and play far less games over a much shorter season.
IMO, the area of signficant difference between the major DI's and everyone else,mid major and lower DI to DIII, is strength and conditioning and nutrition.
With regard to overuse of pitchers, I still think it relates to coaching, not level. For our son's DIII, they usually had far more arms than innings over the course of a season.
Also, I don't think the numbers help too much. While OSU is listed on the good side, I really detested the way they handled Nickerson in Omaha. I have mentioned before, many times, I think OSU plays a great style of ball but that does not hide the fact that, IMO, concern for Nickerson's health finished behind CWS aspirations.
IMO, the area of signficant difference between the major DI's and everyone else,mid major and lower DI to DIII, is strength and conditioning and nutrition.
With regard to overuse of pitchers, I still think it relates to coaching, not level. For our son's DIII, they usually had far more arms than innings over the course of a season.
Also, I don't think the numbers help too much. While OSU is listed on the good side, I really detested the way they handled Nickerson in Omaha. I have mentioned before, many times, I think OSU plays a great style of ball but that does not hide the fact that, IMO, concern for Nickerson's health finished behind CWS aspirations.
TPM,
IMO - That was really an excellent explanation and I think it was precisely what southernmom said it was.
IMO - That was really an excellent explanation and I think it was precisely what southernmom said it was.
45 out of the top 50 2007 prospects signed letters with D1 schools.
it is like this most years whether they attend or not only they know what they will do but the high percentage of D1 drafted players and also the high scools drafted players who would have gone to D! is much higher. They have the grades to get in and athletic wise are the better players for the most part. the game is played the some but less work finding the studs in D! then Juco and D2 along with the fact that D1 players attending school last year in the top 30 players picked all were D1 players or High school players who were going to D1 schools
1 player was a CC player
facts don't lie
it is like this most years whether they attend or not only they know what they will do but the high percentage of D1 drafted players and also the high scools drafted players who would have gone to D! is much higher. They have the grades to get in and athletic wise are the better players for the most part. the game is played the some but less work finding the studs in D! then Juco and D2 along with the fact that D1 players attending school last year in the top 30 players picked all were D1 players or High school players who were going to D1 schools
1 player was a CC player
facts don't lie
not sure how to take that ... as the DI schools CHOSE THEM and beat their doors down to land them. yet ya can be sure DI's were also hot & heavy on the 5 who signed elswhere ...quote:by beantown: 45 out of the top 50 2007 prospects signed letters with D1 schools.
why elsewhere? focused enough to see past the DI glitter? another factor?
No, no, no, pitching abuse occurs at every level!
While bigger programs can have deeper staffs, they don't always use all of the staff.
If son had two choices, larger school or smaller, D1, D2, etc, my pitcher is going to go where he will be treated as a future prospect, not a piece of meat! This is a personal decision.
JMO.
While bigger programs can have deeper staffs, they don't always use all of the staff.
If son had two choices, larger school or smaller, D1, D2, etc, my pitcher is going to go where he will be treated as a future prospect, not a piece of meat! This is a personal decision.
JMO.
beantown, maybe I am wrong but I don't think TR or this thread refers to the top players/prospects. They are very clearly DI. IMO, this thread is about players who might rate 6-7.5, for illustration, on a PG scale but are fully focused on DI.
To put this in perspective, a local mid-major DI plays in the WCC. Tuition/cost is about $43,000 per year. Their recruiting class announced for 2006 was upwards of 26 players. On a local board there is discussion as to why players 10-26 would be headed into a situation where it is clear playing time will be limited/non existent or the player will be cut. One response indicted the significant attraction is the school is DI. Again, I could be wrong but I think this thread is why players who have very little to no chance of playing and a good chance of being cut are still thinking DI.
To put this in perspective, a local mid-major DI plays in the WCC. Tuition/cost is about $43,000 per year. Their recruiting class announced for 2006 was upwards of 26 players. On a local board there is discussion as to why players 10-26 would be headed into a situation where it is clear playing time will be limited/non existent or the player will be cut. One response indicted the significant attraction is the school is DI. Again, I could be wrong but I think this thread is why players who have very little to no chance of playing and a good chance of being cut are still thinking DI.
Yes I agree to many kids who would sit at a D1 but play somewhere else and still get a good education but play would be better off.
You only get better by playing not watching.
You should reach high, but also it is better to play some where then to have high hopes to make a d1 and then not get the call.
Thanks for the input
You only get better by playing not watching.
You should reach high, but also it is better to play some where then to have high hopes to make a d1 and then not get the call.
Thanks for the input
quote:I think OSU plays a great style of ball but that does not hide the fact that, IMO, concern for Nickerson's health finished behind CWS aspirations.
Infielddad,
The same thing troubled me about last years College World Series.
You know… with all the threads on here talking about pitchers being abused just for the purpose of winning. For some reason all I read was congratulations as people seemed to join the band wagon.
Then after the coach of the year award came out, I thought for sure someone would bring it up. Maybe most people do think winning is worth risking the future? Somehow there seemed to be no mention anywhere about how that pitcher was used. I couldn’t help but wonder what the Detroit Tigers were thinking as they watched.
Obviously it didn’t hurt recruiting a bit because several of the top pitching prospects in the country signed on this year. I’m not trying to judge the importance of winning the college title, but with all the discussions about pitch counts and all, I figured this would be a big topic.
Glad that it bothered you too infielddad, unfortunately it seemed to be overlooked by almost everyone else.
Other than that one thing, it was a great run by a bunch of good players who were very well coached and they deserved the title. Just thought it would be a big topic here and unless I missed it, it wasn’t.
For those that might not know, here was how the pitcher was used
7 IP
2 days rest
7.2 IP
3 days rest
6.2 IP
What does everyone think about that. OK because it was the College World Series? Or not? I’d like to hear some opinions. Maybe it isn't politically correct to mention certain things. Times like this is when I wish I had one of those anonymous user names.