Why does everyone think major D-I?

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
With regard to overuse of pitchers, I still think it relates to coaching, not level. For our son's DIII, they usually had far more arms than innings over the course of a season.
Also, I don't think the numbers help too much. While OSU is listed on the good side, I really detested the way they handled Nickerson in Omaha. I have mentioned before, many times, I think OSU plays a great style of ball but that does not hide the fact that, IMO, concern for Nickerson's health finished behind CWS aspirations.

Coaching definitely does have an impact of Pitcher abuse as you note. There are idiots at all levels look at the Little League World Series and tourneys leading up to and you probably see the most abuse of any level.

I attached a link to Individual pitchers abuse points, and while OSU scored well as a staff Nickerson accounted for 51000 of the 70+K of the staffs abuse points.

But it is a fraction of the abuse some others had Jason Godin of Old Dominion had a score of almost 486000 with 8 starts of more than 133 pitches and 4 starts 121 pitches.

2006_pitchers_pap


On a seperate note I am attaching a link to a seperate thread about Medical care for a player, I don't know what level of program but IMO it is a warning to all parents to make sure that the school has adequate and qualified training staff.

Help

The Tigers after signing him did take it easy on Nickerson's arm. In low A he pitched in 5 games for a total of 13 innings.

There was an article in the Lincoln paper today that had perfect timing. it was talking about the Nebraska Huskers and how they have been building their program. I will admit at first I was impressed by the amazing field, the sea of red, and the new 50 million dollar addition to their training complex, but to read that the average player gets less than a 40% scholarship and that they haven't given a full ride to any player in over 15 years (including Alex Gordon).

I know that if I was a DI talent in NE, I would go to an upper tier JUCO or NAIA school where I would get my school paid for, probably get to start right away as a freshman, and have all my future options open (drafted any year, yet still able to go to a DI anytime I want). While that plan may not impress your buddies as much or boost your ego, it gives a baseball player everything they need. The chance to be on the field, get an education and keep the pro dream alive. But in the end, there is only one person who can make that decision.

I'd say most players want to attend the Major D1 over a school (whether it be smaller D1/D2/D3 or JUCO) that might offer greater opportunity for any number of reasons. Many reasons are the same as the basketball players that grow up wanting to play for UCLA, Kentucky, Duke or UConn; or the football players that grow up wanting to play for FSU, Miami, Floria, OSU or ND. Those being:

Grew up a fan of the schools Baseball team.
Grew up pulling for the schools FB or BasketBall team.
CWS & Omaha
TV exposure
Ego
Competition
Facilities
Big time Football on Fall Saturdays
Large Campus
Well known coach
and numerous others

Not saying it is the thing to do or it will give the Major D1 player an upper hand in the draft (the scouts are going to draft who they feel is the best player whether it be HS,D1,D2,D3,Juco,NAIA,Dominican Republic or where ever). During the process, my son and I discussed it at length many times and he finally decided to sign with a smaller school that generally carried a smaller roster and provided more immediate opportunity and also had great schedule to go with the academics, but I do understand the attraction. Some players, and their parents, never do look past that initial attraction and get pulled in to the potential meat grinder of some Major D1s for almost no $. Some players are successful and some are not but that is how these big D1s stay on top, bring in mass quantities of kids and shake'em up in the Fall.

In the end, you cann't fault any player for following his dream out of HS, whether it be MLB, Major D1, Mid-Major D1, D2, D3, JUCO or NAIA. Every players situation is different and should be respected. I believe the people that really know baseball understand that and respect all levels.

quote:

by ifdad: IMO, the area of signficant difference between the major DI's and everyone else,mid major and lower DI to DIII, is strength and conditioning and nutrition.

huh? they don't have weightrooms or food??
not sure how you reached that conclusion, but east of the Rocky's anyway it's the least significant difference if any different at all -


the greatest difference(s) being facilities, media coverage, community & university support, staff, travel (esp lodging), medical, equipment & clothing, and last but not least by any means - -
the Oakleys


PG, the hard use you note is not that unusual ... I'll take some heat off you by mentioning that a few yrs back Baylor rode some guys pretty hard & Stanford had a guy throw 160+ pitches in cws games

quote:

the greatest difference(s) being facilities, media coverage, community & university support, staff, travel (esp lodging), medical, equipment & clothing, and last but not least by any means - - the Oakleys

I agree Bee in regards to the conditioning.

I agree completely with the travel accomodations and amount of travel as well as the media coverage... most smaller schools have none to very limited. However my son's NAIA for example has facilities, clothing, staff, and training/medical staff that rivals almost any DI (not your major DIs) that we ever visited. As a matter of fact, better than most lower level DIs.

ps - *non football schools used for comparison will yield misleading conclusions

I've worked in D-I for 15 years, and thought that was the route to go...
...even early on in the process with my own son. TR and others helped convince me that it is more about FIT, than level. For my son, the right FIT is D-III, and he's happy and I could not be more happier.

As far as differences, I've had a chance to watch his team practice and our local D-I this week. HUGE difference in the FITNESS level. D-I guys are ripped, whereas many of the D-III guys are RIPPLED. Many more thin, wirey guys on the D-III team, and guys on the other end of the fitness spectrum (P and C, mainly). I'd be willing to bet that the D-III players that move up are the ones that take their God-given talent and also dedicate themselves to fitness by getting bigger/faster/stronger/

..don't forget the girls.

Pitch count is much more imortant then innings pitched tha is why little league is switching this year from IP to Pitch count yes it is more work for the coaches to keep track of but it is in the best interest of the kids. I have my son who is 11 on a 68 pitch count per game and the coach was tolled this I did not care if it was the world series my kids arm and future is more important then winning a game. I was scouting a high school game on a Monday and the starting pitcher through 115 pitches and 7innings it was suspended for weather the next day the same kid started the 8th inning an continued to throw 3 more innings and 70 more pitches and shaking his arm after every pitch. The kid played summer ball for me and I had approached the coach and the dad no one else said boo.
they won the game and moved on into tourney play at the end of the season he had tommy john surgery
now what does the dad and the coach have to say.
the safety of the player should always come before the W
ZMAN

Infielddad and PG,
I am glad you brought up about how the pitcher was used in Omaha. I noticed the same thing myself, but then again if something was said, it might look like sour grapes.

This has been a great thread, lots to learn, lots to think about.

In the end, no matter what a player and his parents think, talent and being able to keep up the pace with a larger program and good grades will dictate opportunities for the future. So will the $$ factor.
There is another thread with discussion about ratings and their significance in regards to recruiting, ratings reveal alot, those players higher ratings will have more opportunities to choose where they might want to play. But this does not necessarily mean a lower rated player will not have opportunities. Willingness to learn, be part of the team mentality, projected talent, GPA, all play an integral part in what the coach wants from that individual player. All players make up pieces of a puzzle that need to fit together.

and...don't forget about the girls!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

7 IP
2 days rest
7.2 IP
3 days rest
6.2 IP

What does everyone think about that. OK because it was the College World Series? Or not? I’d like to hear some opinions. Maybe it isn't politically correct to mention certain things. Times like this is when I wish I had one of those anonymous user names.

those stats remind me of some LL tourneys I've been to.

I watched it also and cringed and bit my lip. It reminded me of cases at the high school level when the coach said things in the paper like "We needed him. and we need him on Friday too." or "He wanted the ball." and the world famous "He got stretched out a bit but he didn't want to come out of the game."

Thankfully I've seen Jr.s current coach draw the line and not cross it.

I am confused. Today the sports doctors can fix just about anything. Many college kids are given NLI even when they need sugery. One of my friends had surgery after his minor league team discovered a poblem and he had to have surgery and missed most of his 1st year. They didn't take his bonus away or cancel his contract. This is an era where arm injury is not thye end of the world. Yes it is better to not have an injury but many claim they come back even stronger 85% of the time. I have been to ML camps where half the pitchers have zippers on their arms.

BobbleheadDoll,

Depends on the type of arm injury and of course there are no guarantees on ANY injury. Torn labrums are pretty much a kiss of death to a pitcher. I read where Rob Nenn has been trying to come back from his torn labrum for three years now.

That was the initial diagnosis for my son but thankfully it is only (yeah right) a shoulder impingement. He's been doing his rehab and just started his throwing program again. Lord willing he will be okay. Time will tell.

As far as the PAP don't look at my son's PAP from last year. It would scare you. My son is probably as much to blame as the coach. Unlike Nickerson at least he had a weeks rest between his outings. Thankfully the Orioles pretty much shut him down last summer because of his workload.

BobbleheadDoll,
If that minor leaguer had the problem before he signed his contract, then the options were likely with the team. Under the contract, they could void it because of a preexisting condition. Or, they could proceed as you describe. The player likely had little to no say.
In terms of doctors fixing everything, let me give you a different slant. This is from 2004 DIII playoffs/CWS:
On Thursday, May 20, pitcher throws 9 innings..about 135 pitches.
On Sunday,May 23 same pitcher throws 6 innings...146 pitches.
On Thursday, May 28, same pitcher throws 9 innings..about 140 pitches.
On Saturday, May 30, same pitcher throws 2 innings of relief.
On Monday, June 1, same pitcher starts and throws 9 innings to win the DIII CWS. Throws around 140 pitches again.
Total, 35 innings in 12 days. Total pitches...????
Pitcher is taken in the 7th round. Makes, I believe 4 or 5 appearances. Has surgery. Appearances in 2005 and 2006...NONE. I recently read a short summary saying he has not recovered adequately to pitch.
Second illustration: Our son played in 2004 with a lefty who had TJ surgery. Before the surgery, he reportedly threw 92-94. Would have been drafted in the first 3 rounds. The Jays pick him in the 7th or 8th hoping he will recover. Post surgery, he throws 82-83 without command. In 2005, he is released and I believe is now out of baseball.
Doctors cannot fix everything. I have no idea of the pitch load of the lefty. For the first pitcher, I do as I was at the regional. Had the same feelings then that I did about Nickerson. Unfortunately, the pitcher I saw may have damage that cannot be repaired. He had a CWS ring but his career might well be over.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I am confused. Today the sports doctors can fix just about anything. Many college kids are given NLI even when they need sugery. One of my friends had surgery after his minor league team discovered a poblem and he had to have surgery and missed most of his 1st year. They didn't take his bonus away or cancel his contract. This is an era where arm injury is not thye end of the world. Yes it is better to not have an injury but many claim they come back even stronger 85% of the time. I have been to ML camps where half the pitchers have zippers on their arms.

How can you make such a statment?

heck out bonus amoutns for Dallas Buck, check out Tim Stouffer (sp) few years back. Tim lost millions because he was injured and hid it. I know who the UF pitcher was, prior TJS and that brought his bonus amount down.
Ask Deldad about it. Not that his son is not going to be a ML pitcher. He was able to rehab (I do beleive they did not pay for his operation) but as a projected first rounder his bonus was affected.
My sons advisor, former MLB player has the "zipper" which was done while in MLB. He told me that after his operation, he knew he had so much rehab in front of him, it was time to move on.
My son's friend, HUGE scholarship to a MAJOR contender, came hurt, lost his scholarship.

Anyone who lives by the philosophy, "if it is broken it can be fixed", has no clue what it's all about. JMO.

I agree but TJ is not usually the end of the world. Most of the TJ injuries that can't be fixed are due to continued use after injury.
I watched an hour long speacial on this topic recently and it is amazing how many doctors are involved in sports surgery. The success rate of this type of sugery is increasing. I do know a couple guys who didn't recover enough to continue in their sport.

quote:

He told me that after his operation, he knew he had so much rehab in front of him, it was time to move on.

Yes this actually skews the success rate because lots of the guys give up.
TPM I have a clue I just go by what I have seen. It is not the end of the world to have TJ surjery in the majority of the cases.
I know several guys who are very happy with TJ surgery and say they are performing better than ever.

quote:

Confused huh? they don't have weightrooms or food??
not sure how you reached that conclusion, but east of the Rocky's anyway it's the least significant difference if any different at all -


the greatest difference(s) being facilities, media coverage, community & university support, staff, travel (esp lodging), medical, equipment & clothing, and last but not least by any means - -
the Oakleys coolgleam

Bee, so far as weight rooms/conditioning and nutrition, I am comparing our son's DIII experience with a current teammate who graduated from Vanderbilt. DIII..no strength and conditioning coach. Vanderbilt, an excellent one almost fully focused on baseball. Nutrition. On the DIII side, you eat with everyone else, if the cafeteria was open after night games and practices. Vanderbilt...quite a bit different from the description I received.
When these 2 started playing minor league ball together in 2004, the DI player had major advantages because of the strength/conditioning/nutrition/diet differences, IMO.
So far as the other items, I agree they are a totally different world at the DI vs DIII levels. I just did not view them as reasons that make a player better or reasons they choose DI...but I could be wrong.

Bobblehead, there are more overuse injuries than TJ. Look at Frank's post about labrum injuries and Robb Nenn. Have you read the number of articles on pitchers who never recover to pitch after labrum injuries? Far more pitchers never come back after labrum surgery than do.
I really do not understand your view that doctors/surgery fixes everything.

quote:

Anyone who lives by the philosophy, "if it is broken it can be fixed", has no clue what it's all about.

That philosophy sure sounds like positive thinking to me. You never go into a situation doubting the positive results as you're only setting yourself up for failure. At some point you may have to "face-up", but until that time you admit defeat, you're always thinking positive. Outside of baseball that is the philosophy stressed to cancer and other terminal patients.

quote:

I really do not understand your view that doctors/surgery fixes everything.

I don't believe that is what I said. RZ1 is right I believe that a positive approach can go a long way in getting back to performing at a high level again. If you are not ready for the risk you shouln;t pitch of drive race cars.

I did not say it was the end of the world.

You said that you were confused that today sports doctors can fix just about anything.

I do not know of ANYONE who signed an NLI with prior knowledge they needed surgery, they may require surgery after they sign, but before?

If a player comes hurt prior to getting on campus and proved later, it may be at his expense.

There is a dad who posts here that his son's pro contract was voided after they discovered he needed surgery (they wouldn't do it).

quote:

by ifdad: Bee, so far as weight rooms/conditioning and nutrition, I am comparing our son's DIII experience with a current teammate who graduated from Vanderbilt

you may have missed the disclaimer that followed my observation

"ps - *non football schools used for comparison will yield misleading conclusions"

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Today the sports doctors can fix just about anything.

" I really do not understand your view that doctors/surgery fixes everything."



"I don't believe that is what I said."

Now, I am confused.

Docs can usually fix your elbow....so you can brush your teeth. Anything above and beyond that takes months, maybe years to re-acquire, if at all. The pitcher is starting over at less than scratch.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:

quote:

by ifdad: Bee, so far as weight rooms/conditioning and nutrition, I am comparing our son's DIII experience with a current teammate who graduated from Vanderbilt

you may have missed the disclaimer that followed my observation

"ps - *non football schools used for comparison will yield misleading conclusions"

Bee>, that thar's funny!!!

quote:

by JT: Bee>, that thar's funny!

JT, follow the money ...
non football Colleges offer only a "token" commitment to athletics & their athletes ...
now, rarely some DO have great coaches/recruiters putting competitve programs on the field (court, pool, whatever) ... BUT the school's commitment to those athletes is minimal and thus would yield a misleading conclusion in comparing one to any colleges (any division) having that commitment (football)

I absolutely beleive in the positive approach, but you can NOT justify overuse because an operation may be able to fix it later on. That is what I got out of your post.

You said you were confused, doctors can just about fix anything, that is why I responded.

I am with infielddad, confused too!

quote:

Why does everyone think major D-I?

It's because people usually want the best/highest level of what is available. If you can't get the best, you adjust to something else that can also be very good.

One of the questions we ask players is what colleges they are most interested in. Very seldom do we see any NAIA, DII, DIII colleges listed. We do see a lot of Arizona State, Stanford, Miami, Florida State, Clemson, LSU, Texas, etc. from players who obviously won't end up at those schools.

It's natural to think big! Not sure there's anything wrong with it, so long as adjustments are made if and when necessary.

Fungo nailed the answer

- to summarize what he said
D-1 is the top notch competition, facilities etc, it connotes that a player is a top player, and we Americans like to be the best...so do our kids.

We teach them to find and play against the best, to be the best...why should we be surprised when that's what they want.

They aren't old and experienced in "the real world" and only settle for that answer when they are wise beyond their year and probably aren't high D-1 caliber anyway. They are young, competitive and brash...just the way our soceity says they should be!

quote:

D-1 is the top notch competition, facilities etc, it connotes that a player is a top player, and we Americans like to be the best...so do our kids.

mrmom, if what you say is true, what does that say about my son.... who was a pretty fine DIII player? Heck, he was actually good enough so that he now gets to tie his shoes in a locker room filled with DI guys...and no one knows the difference. What does that say about all those son's who play DII/DIII/NAIA/JUCO.
What does it say about all those who are sitting on the bench of a DI...or got cut?
I agree that many want to play DI because it is top notch. But I don't think being a DI player says anything about who you are, the type of person you are, and in many cases, the type of player you will become. When it comes to "young, competitive and brash," players at the DI level don't have the franchise, I can assure you...Sorry, I think the "chip" on my shoulder might be starting to show.

Infielddad,

I don’t think anyone is saying anything about the kids who play at other levels in college. It’s all great IMO. It’s just that DI is the highest level of college sports. So it is natural that kids and parents might want that if it is possible.

I think it’s the guys like your son, who become the best examples of what can happen at any level. Your son, and many others are living testimonials, that the other way can work too! Some people will not make the necessary adjustments and think it’s DI or nothing! Those people often end up with the nothing when it comes to baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Infielddad,

I don’t think anyone is saying anything about the kids who play at other levels in college. It’s all great IMO. It’s just that DI is the highest level of college sports. So it is natural that kids and parents might want that if it is possible.

I think it’s the guys like your son, who become the best examples of what can happen at any level. Your son, and many others are living testimonials, that the other way can work too! Some people will not make the necessary adjustments and think it’s DI or nothing! Those people often end up with the nothing when it comes to baseball.

Good post and remember infielddad, the cream always rises to the top!

I think some are just getting a bit too sensitve over things that are posted and relayed on a message board. Things get lost in the translation.

Can we start over?

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
mrmom, if what you say is true, what does that say about my son.... who was a pretty fine DIII player? Heck, he was actually good enough so that he now gets to tie his shoes in a locker room filled with DI guys...and no one knows the difference. What does that say about all those son's who play DII/DIII/NAIA/JUCO.
What does it say about all those who are sitting on the bench of a DI...or got cut?
I agree that many want to play DI because it is top notch. But I don't think being a DI player says anything about who you are, the type of person you are, and in many cases, the type of player you will become. When it comes to "young, competitive and brash," players at the DI level don't have the franchise, I can assure you...Sorry, I think the "chip" on my shoulder might be starting to show.

Infieldad there is a big difference in "just about anything" and anything. I allow for the fact that not all pitchers regain their former stature as a pitcher.
The bulk of the injuries I have seen have been ,rotator injuries, bone chips, scar tissue and torn Ulnar ligaments. I have not seen many torn labrums with pitchers . I know it is much more difficult to repair but it does happen.
I live in a city that had a "A" minor league team. I saw 1st hand pitchers go through rehab after surgery. It is a long process but it is a common occarance.
My poit is that it is not like the old days where you were finished after an injury. Modern medicine has saved the careers of many pitchers. It is no longer doom & gloom.

mrmom stated "We teach them to find and play against the best, to be the best...why should we be surprised when that's what they want."

Could it be "we" (meaning parents, media and the public) have impressed our opinions upon our children who, as we all know, have a tendency to take on our ideas, values, morals and opinions until they have lived through their own experiences to think and develop their own otherwise?

I recently read an article from a San Fran paper about Rob Nenn and his struggle to return. In that article they said that there have been 36 Major League pitchers that have needed Labrum repair over the past X number of years, and only 1 of them ever came back to the same level they were at. That is a pretty sobering statistic. The thing that everyone must be concerned with is that many labrum tears seem to come from untreated or poorly treated impingements, which are extremely common. At least that is according to UCONN's sports med department.

I am working with a 6'7" pitcher right now that was throwing consistently at 93 in HS, 94 prior to his injury. Now 15 months post labrum surgery he is throwing 86 on a great day. He still holds onto all hope, which is a must, but it is still a struggle to have to see the reality of it sometimes.

southernmom,
Good point!

When my son was younger, I think he may have had no clue as to what differentiates a D1 from a D2, D3.

And neither did I, until one day I noticed it on a PG rating.

I most likely be considered pretty bold in making the following statment, but I think it is many times what parents want for their players, not the other way around.

So D1 is top notch and gets the best. Hum -- interesting that many D1 rosters have a good percentage of transfers and many high school players are drafted. I guess my son could play D1 (and I use the word play as in make six appearances a season -- hypothetical) and be considered one of the best?