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quote:
by TPM: When my son was younger, I think he may have had no clue as to what differentiates a D1 from a D2, D3... And neither did I, until one day I noticed it on a PG rating.
like any other youngster he was prolly more knowlegable than you thought ..
what with ESPN-Sportscenter, the 'Canes in your back yard, March Madness, BCS football, & the CWS ... he may not have known what it was called (by NCAA Div) - but he knew what it was
Wink
Last edited by Bee>
I think that the D1 programs are branded. Who hasn't heard of Florida State, Oklahoma, U South Carolina and so on. These names have tradition and are recognized across North America. The truth is that all the best players do not play D1 NCAA. Many go D1 JC and other programs for different reasons. Players get signed at all divisions. I really have a tough time calling them levels. Levels exist in all programs and change as players move on and new ones come in.
I'll probably regret this, but here goes...

This thread is sounding a little PCish to me. Some simple facts:

* D1 is the highest "level" in college baseball.
* Most good baseball players "dream" of playing at some particular college...usually its a D1, but not always, often its a traditional power, but not always.
* Being a D3/NAIA/JC player is most certainly not embarrassing.
* Being a starter at a lower level generally results in more happiness in the long run than being a bench guy at D1. Same goes for being a starter at a mid-D1 versus a bench guy at a high-D1. No big deal, human nature, thats all.
* Sometimes D1's mess up and don't pluck the very best HS players...or the ones with the most ultimate potential. MLB sorts that "mess-up" out. Again, no big deal.

What really matters? Is your son happy? Is he getting a good education? Is he playing? Does he still love the game?

If most of those are answered affirmative, you and your son have done a good job! If I missed the point somewhere...sorry.
TR, this is a great thread topic...
Being a junior in high school, why am I looking major D-1? Well, first off, my grades are very good, and I am perfectly capable of going to school at an academicly strong Division 1 school... I am willing to play baseball anywhere, believe me, it really doesn't matter as long as I'm playing ball; but seeing as how I will more than likely be accepted into a D1 academically, I do not want to ruin my opportunity there by settling to play baseball at a smaller school that isn't as tough. Pro ball is really not even an issue with me. I don't expect to be looked at professionally, and don't have a plan whatsoever to play baseball after school, so the exposure is a nonfactor with me. Oh, and it's all about Omaha. I can't speak for any other players on this site, but my dream since I was 5 or 6 years old has been to play in the College World Series, even more so than to play in the MLB World Series, or the MLB at all for that matter. I believe that there is so much more to love about the college game than the pros, but again, that's just me. It's what I live for and I aspire greatly to be a part of that someday.
***** Almost 300 D1 teams CWS dreams are set back annually, and sometimes due to unfairness*****

PREFACE: Some kid from a smaller school nearly won the NCAA triple crown in 2006....

http://www.cstv.com/sports/m-basebl/stories/011607aas.html
Jan. 16, 2007


By Mark Etheridge

Special to CSTV.com from SEbaseball.com



Coaches not fortunate enough to work in the SEC, ACC, Big 12, Pac-10, or Conference USA are finding their path to Regional play has gotten more difficult. Since 2000, Regional berths for teams not in those five leagues have dwindled from 42 to 34. Considering 25 of those 34 are automatic bids, the likelihood of non-power conference teams snagging at-large bids has been cut in half.



The jockeying for at-large bids is getting more intense, as schools from less powerful conferences are feeling the pinch.



"Of the seven bids FAU has received, my greatest source of pride is that all but one were at-large bids," Florida Atlantic head coach Kevin Cooney explained. "An at-large should reflect the quality of the season by the players and coaches. For mid-major schools, those at-large bids are becoming scarcer."



In college baseball, the smaller school has always been able to compete. A couple of players can make a sizeable difference. Coaches could make up for a lack of talent by outworking the next guy. That may still be true, but the margin has gotten smaller.



As university administrators discovered colleges like LSU and Arkansas actually make money from their baseball programs, the baseball budgets for the warm-weather football power schools have expanded. New stadiums have been funded and built. Practically every power conference facility has enjoyed some form of upgrade. Salaries and recruiting budgets have grown.



And sure enough, those programs have improved. Schools like Kentucky and Vanderbilt used to be bottom-dwellers in the SEC. Now they are challenging for titles. The SEC does not have an easy win on the conference schedule. And there should not be one, considering the commitment those universities have to their programs.



"There is really no question that ten or so teams in the big conferences can certainly compete in a Regional," Northwestern State head coach Mitch Gaspard said in a SEBaseball.com interview last season. "The thing I'd like to point out about teams like ours is that we are fighting with a short stick. We don't have their budget. Also, when we play those teams it will be on the road. Most of the big-conference teams are not coming to Natchitoches (Louisiana). Teams in those leagues can have an average year and still get into a Regional. For us, we have to have a super year just to be among those 10 or 12 final teams they consider for the at-large bids. We need to be rewarded for having a good season."



Gaspard was an assistant on Alabama's CWS teams in the 1990s, so he has seen both sides. He made a good point on the budgets. Not only do teams like his have to dig out of a hole, they are using a shovel while the power schools cruise up in bulldozers. Also, a team like his has to excel contending for a conference championship to merit at-large consideration. Even then, if they do not have a strong RPI they have no chance at an at-large berth.



"I suppose the inflated RPIs of power conference members sway the committee," Cooney said, "but is the team near the bottom of the SEC or ACC deserving of a bid because their RPI is on steroids due to the conference in which they reside? Shouldn't a team from a smaller conference be rewarded for their good season despite a lesser RPI? A good case in point was Troy not getting a bid in 2005 despite great players who put up good numbers (won A-Sun by 4 games), a great record (37-21 and 23-7), but an RPI (#64) that probably cost them? Maybe the benefit of the doubt needs to swing from Goliath to David."



Last season, McNeese State (RPI #83) won the Southland regular season but lost in the conference tournament. The Cowboys stayed home. Two seasons ago in addition to Troy, North Carolina-Wilmington had a similar fate after winning the Colonial.



Meanwhile, schools in the SEC get a built-in, 30-game RPI boost with their conference schedule. No knowledgeable baseball observer will dispute that the eighth- or ninth-place SEC team is one the best 64 teams, but should a team that does not compete in its conference deserve the privilege of playing for the national title?



That is really the question. What are the criteria for selecting the Regional field? Are they trying to find the best 34 at-large teams? Or are they looking to reward teams with good regular seasons with a postseason opportunity?



Former Regional selection committee chairman Charlie Carr explained his interpretation of the criteria after the 2005 field was announced.



"We look at overall record, RPI, non-conference record, strength of schedule, road record, last 10-15 games, how they did in the tournament, and how they fared against the top 25 and top 100.



"Comparing teams from different schedules is difficult," Carr added, "Just like comparing east coast versus west coast is difficult. We look for head to head first, then common opponents. It comes down to many ingredients. There was very little difference in many of them. If we can't find anything that way, we can go to our Regional advisory committee. That part does not include statistics; it is people watching teams."



Carr's explanation seems to split the difference. It values RPI ranking, but also looks at win/loss record. So again, do they take the best team or the team with the best resume?



"I think the best 64 teams should be in Regionals," Auburn head coach Tom Slater said in a SEBaseball.com interview last season. "I don't hear a lot of talk about this problem in basketball. We have a tool to determine those top teams: the RPI. Since that is what they want to use to compare teams, that has to be a big factor along with strength of schedule, and a team's record against good teams. The SEC's performance in Regionals speaks for itself."



Slater is right. The SEC has been successful in Regional play. In 2005, the conference received a record nine Regional berths. All nine teams made the Regional final, with six winning. Last season, the SEC got eight teams into the postseason, with LSU missing the cut despite making the conference tournament. Seven of the eight made the Regional final with four teams winning.



Mississippi State got in despite not qualifying for the SEC Tournament, drawing the ire from mid-majors everywhere.



"How can a team that doesn't make their own conference tournament get in over teams who won their conference," Lamar head coach Jim Gilligan asked "If they don't want anyone but the big conference teams to participate, then they need to tell us and we'll go have our own tournament."



The whole argument is frustrating for schools like Lamar, Northwestern State, and North Carolina-Wilmington. The only way they can get respect from the committee is to take it. Last season, College of Charleston won a Regional on the road at the SEC co-champion's park. Winning gets attention, and is the have-nots' best chance at slowing their at-large percentage decrease.



On the other side of the fence, the SEC should not have to apologize for their success, their top-to-bottom balance, or their Regional performance. By any standard used, the conference race is brutally competitive.



"We play in the best league in the country, top to bottom," said Florida coach Pat McMahon. "Most leagues have top teams and bottom teams with a lot of separation in between. In this league, you are an injury or slump away from going to the bottom from the top. There's just not much difference."



The success of these warm-weather schools - not just the SEC as the ACC had four teams in the College World Series last year - triggered a rule change that will be implemented next spring. Next season the earliest a game can be played is February 22. Pushed through by teams with a weather disadvantage, the goal is to help level the playing field by bringing the start dates more in line.



Like most things in life, this issue basically comes down to money. Schools in the south are generating revenue with their luxury suites and record attendance. Since there is money to be made, the schools in the north understandably want to get in the action. The problem there is not as much demand for facility upgrades and suites because the weather makes it uncomfortable to watch baseball until at least April, and also fan apathy, since many of the northern teams can not compete at a national level.



Ironically enough, this legislation was passed the same season Oregon State - a cold-weather school in a predominately warm-weather conference - won the College World Series.



In a nutshell, the financially committed programs are winning games and gaining postseason opportunities. The distance between the money programs and their counterparts are widening. The Regional field reflects that trend.



Where did all the at-large bids go? They followed the money.
Last edited by OLDSLUGGER8
quote:
In a nutshell, the financially committed programs are winning games and gaining postseason opportunities. The distance between the money programs and their counterparts are widening. The Regional field reflects that trend.
It's like the family on the other side of the tracks. The rich use them to pretty up the yard, but they will never give them credit, they will let it be known they are not the same class, and they wake up in the morning they think they are being respectful neighbors. Rose colored glasses does that to vision.
Last edited by rz1
quote:
Almost 300 D1 teams CWS dreams are set back annually, and sometimes due to unfairness


What about the D-II, D-III, JUCO and the NAIA? Don't they get passed up when it comes to the CWS?

quote:
sometimes due to unfairness


What's unfair about not being able to compete? This ain't little league. Not everyone gets to bat.
Maybe an NIT type baseball tournament should be looked at. I'll bet that would draw some interest because you would see more variety in regional teams. The only ones who may have problem with it is MLB because it may handcuff many more draft choices from starting professional careers, and the NCAA tournament regulars who would not have the stage to themselves.
I would just add one view to the question of "why D-1"? I have encouraged my son to consider several good D-3 schools as well as some top west coast wood bat JUCOs. I think the issue for a lot of these kids is more one of outright competitiveness rather than well thought reasoning. While I might not agree with that reasoning, I certainly would not want to do anything to discourage the competitive fire which goes with playing against (and beating) the best.
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
Maybe an NIT type baseball tournament should be looked at. I'll bet that would draw some interest because you would see more variety in regional teams.


I've often wondered about this. I suspect it will take someone who thinks they can make $$ off of it before it will happen. Not sure how soon that can happen.
quote:
TR, this is a great thread topic...
Being a junior in high school, why am I looking major D-1? Well, first off, my grades are very good, and I am perfectly capable of going to school at an academicly strong Division 1 school... I am willing to play baseball anywhere, believe me, it really doesn't matter as long as I'm playing ball; but seeing as how I will more than likely be accepted into a D1 academically, I do not want to ruin my opportunity there by settling to play baseball at a smaller school that isn't as tough. Pro ball is really not even an issue with me. I don't expect to be looked at professionally, and don't have a plan whatsoever to play baseball after school, so the exposure is a nonfactor with me. Oh, and it's all about Omaha. I can't speak for any other players on this site, but my dream since I was 5 or 6 years old has been to play in the College World Series, even more so than to play in the MLB World Series, or the MLB at all for that matter. I believe that there is so much more to love about the college game than the pros, but again, that's just me. It's what I live for and I aspire greatly to be a part of that someday.

- Daron Vaught
Rural Retreat Indians #29


Daron, It is always great, perhaps even better to get a player's perspective. Congratulations on your academic achievements. They are a critical part of the recruiting process and should help you considerably...perhaps more than you know.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that DI recruiting, for most players does not involve the player selecting the school. It involves the school seeing, liking, recruiting and then selecting a player. PG posted recently they give a lot more DI grades than there are openings on DI rosters each year.
To optimize your GPA, make sure you get yourself seen by the schools of interest and pursue them with persistence. Good luck to you and let us know how you are doing.
Another, as yet unmentioned, possible reason for going D1 is that most are larger universities with a broader spectrum of academic majors. This definitely played a role in my son's selection. He's not yet sure what he wants his major to be (his interests are diverse) and didn't want to have to transfer if he ultimately decided upon a major that may not be available...a more likely eventuality at a smaller school w/ fewer offerings.
Out of high school my son signed with a mid-level D1 school and ended up transfering after his first year (long story, but had nothing to do with playing time). Just began season at a Top level D2 school because he decided that he had gotten over the "D1 thing" and wanted to play for a school that had a chance to "win something." His opinion is that why play for a D1 school that has no chance of ever going to Omaha when he can play for a D2 school that has been to the D2 WS and has a chance to go again.

The school he is at now swept a local D1 school last season and he feels that where he's at is better than the mid-level D1 school he originally signed with.

He also gets the same "perks" as he did before. (Equipment, etc.)

Ego. When people ask where my son is at? I still find myself saying, "He's at Francis Marion in South Carolina, but they're ranked pre-season #6 in the country and they went to the D2 world series last year." It's like I'm trying to justify why he's at a D2 school.

By the way, he couldn't be happier there.
I think several of the non D1 parents were offended by the posts in here judging by their responses. But I would encourage them to re-read the posts. Never once did I see a D1 parent say "My son is better than yours because he goes (went) to a D1 school". Never.

Also, I'd like to point out that I cringed when I used the term "D1 parent". At the end of the day, you're all on the same boat....baseball parents.

--------------

To get back on topic and to answer why a student athlete would prefer a D1 school/program, I wanted to reiterate KB2610's post. My daughter is a golfer and could've gone to one of THE top DIII programs in the country, a team in the hunt for a national championship every year. Instead, she chose a lower level D1 program. Why?

1) Cost - DIII schools around here start at about $35k/yr or more and go up from there, way up.

2) Scholarship - She received almost all of the academic money she could get from the smaller schools but that only covered about 40% of the COA.

3) Academics - She felt pigeonholed going to a DIII and felt a DI would give her a broader spectrum of academic opportunities.
Keep in mind a few things---

Division III and II programs can equal monies from Division I schools---they do the academic and grant thing


As for a broader spectrum of academic opportunities Division I is not the be all end all

I have seen Division III programs come up with 80% of total costs thru grants and academics and here in the Northeast I will match Division III academics with Division I and II schools

My own son went Division I for one reason--he wanted to prove he could play at that level and he did-- he could have had a full ride at a local Division II powerhouse but knew he could come back if needed---it wasn't needed --- my step son started at the Division III level with a powerhouse down south but came back home and played at Division I


Different strokes for different folks and the bottom line is that the kid needs to be happy no matter where he is
quote:
I think several of the non D1 parents were offended by the posts in here judging by their responses. But I would encourage them to re-read the posts. Never once did I see a D1 parent say "My son is better than yours because he goes (went) to a D1 school". Never.


Beezer, I think one of those non DI parents was me. I certainly appreciate that some of the nicest people are on this site. I also realize that message boards are filled with comments subject to over and misinterpretation. With rare exceptions, the HSBBW is just a great place to spend time.
There are so many posts in this thread that are true and completely accurate. Fungo, CD, justbaseball, TPM, southernmom, yourself and many others give fabulous insights.
I want to make it very clear our son had a passion/burning passion to play DI!!! Since I have been on this site, I have learned where we probably went wrong in helping fulfill that passion. I also, through hindsight, know all turned out better than we could have hoped.
Where I responded in an assertive way, was when I interpreted a post to suggest there is a difference in the type of person that it takes to play DI. At this point, it makes little difference. Our son has completed college, had some very nice DI doors opened for him along the way, has his degree from a great University and is still playing. Surprisingly, in professional ball, the media sometimes loves to make a big deal about him because he is from a DIII. What he didn't get in college, in a sense, makes him media "attractive" now.
Like I said in my post, he ties his shoes in the same locker room in the same way with DI guys. They came from very different college and college baseball experiences. I do think the DI guys from major programs were better prepared. I have posted before that I believe Josh Bell coming from Auburn was better at his position than ours at his.
With Josh and Jason having played together some last summer and become friends, I think I can safely say there were huge differences in level of baseball they played in college, but that says nothing about them as people.
Last edited by infielddad
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Keep in mind a few things---

Division III and II programs can equal monies from Division I schools---they do the academic and grant thing

I have seen Division III programs come up with 80% of total costs thru grants and academics and here in the Northeast I will match Division III academics with Division I and II schools

My own son went Division I for one reason--he wanted to prove he could play at that level and he did-- he could have had a full ride at a local Division II powerhouse but knew he could come back if needed---it wasn't needed --- my step son started at the Division III level with a powerhouse down south but came back home and played at Division I


Different strokes for different folks and the bottom line is that the kid needs to be happy no matter where he is



***we left more money on the table from other D1's and a few other levels. It was not my choice to make, but the boy. He opted for the coaches at the program he selected.
Last edited by OLDSLUGGER8
I think the simple answer is, at least at first the top D1's are the schools you hear about and get to see play or read about in the paper. If you are anything like I was (and my son I assume) we just didn't know that much about the many different levels so naturally the Top D1's were the objective.

As time went on and we learned more about what was out there reality began to set in and finding out about other levels became much more important. Although my son had outstanding grades, great test scores and made all-county and all-state at the highest level of Florida HS ball the interest outside of questionaires from the top D1 schools just wasn't there.

As it turned out the choices we had were from a DIII, and a lower tier D1. Both excellent academic schools. Recruiting trips were made to both schools and at the DIII we were able to watch the team play. The level of talent at the DIII was very good and my son liked the school but that particular weekend the team they played was not very strong. After the games my son asked the coach if this was typical of the competition they faced and the coach gave a very honest answer. He said that although they did go against many very good teams about half of thier competion was similar to what you saw this weekend. He made his decision based on that answer. He felt that there was a better chance he would face more consistently better competition at the lower tier D1 and felt that this would make him a better player. I couldn't argue with him as it was apparent he had thought it through and this was the logical choice.
Infielddad I really appreciate your posts. You know how it is! I have never heard any remarks from my son or teammates of my son that would lead me to believe they (the players) categorize players by their previous level of play. Professional baseball and even college baseball is a melting pot of talent, life styles, and every other difference you can imagine. It’s refreshing that players ignore their differences and appreciate their teammates for who they are. Baseball has a way of making frivolous things frivolous. Wink
Fungo
Fascinating thread. Geography might have something to do with it as well. In our state, until the 06-07 school year, there was nothing but D-1 or Juco. This year one former juco started playing D-2 intercollegiate sports(the 4 year kind). I doubt my 14u has any clue about all the variety of baseball opportunities there are out there. Although the exposure to college baseball is improving, in general it's still treated as the ugly step-sister by the media. So the local schools and what one might see on ESPN is all they know in some situations.
Last edited by bkekcs
quote:
Originally posted by FrankF:
infielddad and fungo,



although son does get the occasional ribbing for being from the Ivies. Big Grin


I rememeber watching a Florida v. Vanderbilt football game, at Vandy, on TV. There was a sign in the student section:

"Hey Gators, laugh now but someday you'll be working for me." Big Grin

The Joshes and Jasons of the professional baseball world are truly unique, following a road much less traveled to pro ball. It's probably something that will benefit them in many ways long after their "cleeps", as my son used to call his baseball shoes, are stashed away forever.
Last edited by Dad04
quote:
although son does get the occasional ribbing for being from the Ivies.

And he should Frank Big Grin. Everyone feels a little uncomfortable around people that are smater than they are Wink. As rz1 counts on one hand how many people he is comfortable being around. That Ivy degree is like playing pro baseball, a dream, that requires a lot of dedication and fortitude.IMHO
Last edited by rz1
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
quote:
although son does get the occasional ribbing for being from the Ivies.

And he should Frank Big Grin. Everyone feels a little uncomfortable around people that are smater than they are Wink. As rz1 counts on one hand how many people he is comfortable being around. That Ivy degree is like playing pro baseball, a dream, that requires a lot of dedication and fortitude.IMHO


smater smarter.
Last edited by Dad04
Thanks for the compliments, but trust me when I say that he doesn't feel any smater than anyone else and realizes if not for baseball he would have probably never got in. Smile The academics were the toughest thing he's done. Unless there is a bar called the "library", studying and pulling all nighters were the norm for him.

So far the best thing he's got going for him is he speaks a little Spanish which is helping with the DR guys. Wink
Last edited by FrankF
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
With Josh and Jason having played together some last summer and become friends, I think I can safely say there were huge differences in level of baseball they played in college, but that says nothing about them as people.


ifdad - I don't think anybody meant to suggest otherwise either! Wink

Although I don't have a dog in the fight so to speak, I am the parent of a Div 1 student / athlete and I totally agree with the notion that in general there are bigger, faster, stronger, more skilled, more experienced, etc, athletes at the Div 1 level compared to the other divisions. Does that mean that infielddad Jr. isn't Div 1 material? Absolutely not.

Div 1 programs (in ALL sports) have benchmarks they go by whether we as parents like it or not. My daughter could've just as easily matriculated to a Div III school as she did to a Div 1. At the end of the day, she's still the same person though. She is what she is, no label necessary.
Last edited by Beezer
While there might be better things to do in a day than read these posts of FrankF, Dad04, rz1, Fungo, and PG Staff, Eek, I am not sure what they might be!!!!
I just got off a 7 hour and 20 minute conference call and clicked to this page. Relieved 7 hours of anguish in less than 5 minutes and left me with a smile...for the first time today. Smile
BTW, PGStaff, you are on a roll lately. Many of your posts over the past weeks should be consolidated into one Golden Thread. They, IMO, have been terrific insights into the scouting, projection, ranking of players and the real world numbers involved in the competition to play baseball in college.

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