Wind Up balk?

Not legal, a balk every time.

All the pitcher can do is with both feet on the mound is, pitch, step directly at the base he's throwing too, or step back with his pivot foot first. No, he can't even step off with the correct foot "after" he's begun his wind up motion, uh, uh.

All I can guess if this wasn't balked, is umpire/s either really don't know, or didn't see the begining of the motion to pitch?

I would like to add a caveat to jkk's answer. In any code except HS he may do as stated. In HS he may not step to a base from the wind-up. What you described is a balk in any code.

thats what we used to call "an easy chicken".............(balk, balk, balk)

The pitcher can still step off, even if in the full windup position. Once he steps off, he can do anything he likes to try to put the runner out. To do this properly, his very first motion must be to lift the pivot foot and step backwards.

BUT, once he starts his pitching windup motion, he has to go home or else it's a balk. So in the question as put, it's a balk because as I understand it he had already begun the windup, with hands going overhead before he turned to go to first base.

Typically the first pitching motion will be when the kick leg foot is picked up. Once that happens, it's go to home, or balk.

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thats what we used to call "an easy chicken".............(balk, balk, balk)

Balk, can't stop motion once started and step back, must step directly to base and throw.

In FED (unlike NCAA and Pro), F1 cannot step and throw to a base from the windup position (determined by the feet). He can only deliver a pitch or step off.

Can a pitcher, from the stretch position, with a runner on 1B (who is a shoe in to steal), can the pitcher do the "up and over" move towards second base and throw to the SS covering in an attempt to get the stealing runner out. My understanding was that you can not throw to an unoccupied base, so I am thinking this can not be done without a balk being called. Any thoughts?

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Originally posted by Eric G:
Can a pitcher, from the stretch position, with a runner on 1B (who is a shoe in to steal), can the pitcher do the "up and over" move towards second base and throw to the SS covering in an attempt to get the stealing runner out. My understanding was that you can not throw to an unoccupied base, so I am thinking this can not be done without a balk being called. Any thoughts?

He can't throw to an unoccupied base UNLESS it's attempt to make a play on a baserunner, so if R1 hasn't taken off yet, balk. If R1 is off and running, play on. I'd be watching to decide if any part of that "up and over" looked even remotely like he was going to the plate, though.

(I'm crackin up too over the "easy chicken" line!)

A pitcher may throw to an unoccupied base only if it is an attempt to retire a runner. In your scenario, assuming F1 makes a legal move to 2nd and the runner continues to 2nd, it's a legal move.

If the runner sees F1 throwing to 2nd and returns to 1st, it's a balk.

If F1 steps toward 1st, he must throw there.

If you see a runner breaking, step off. If there are no other runners, you should get him 100% of the time.

"...If the runner sees F1 throwing to 2nd and returns to 1st, it's a balk."


Dash Riprock, if the runner just has a big lead and F1 steps and throws to 2nd, then I've got a Balk. BUT if the runner runs half way to second, then upon seeing F1 stepping toward 2nd, he turns and runs back to 1st, I'm not going to call a balk. In my judgement, there was a possible play a second...

Do you think along these lines too?

No. If the runner returns, there is no play at 2nd. A "possible play" isn't good enough. The throw must be an attempt to retire a runner, not drive him back.

Dash - why are you judging the throw to 2b not an attempt to retire the runner? Cookie describes the runner being half way to second - the pitcher should be taught to either throw to second or run at the runner and force him back to first.

If the runner is going all out to second and pitcher turns and throws to 2nd there should not be a balk...even if the runner slams on the breaks and tries to return to first. If it is judged by the umpire that the runner was only trying to coax a throw, then it's a balk.

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Originally posted by HawksCoach:
Dash - why are you judging the throw to 2b not an attempt to retire the runner? Cookie describes the runner being half way to second - the pitcher should be taught to either throw to second or run at the runner and force him back to first.

The only way the pitcher can run at the runner is if he's stepped off first. Then he's a fielder and cannot balk by throwing to an unoccupied base. It's only a balk if he does not step off.

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Originally posted by Kimosabe:
If the runner is going all out to second and pitcher turns and throws to 2nd there should not be a balk...even if the runner slams on the breaks and tries to return to first. If it is judged by the umpire that the runner was only trying to coax a throw, then it's a balk.

Disagree. If the runner retreats back to 1st, there was no play at 2nd, and no legitimate attempt to retire a runner.

Dash - sorry for clouding the issue regarding running at the runner - he would have stepped off and that prevents any balk call. My question really dealt with doing the up and over while R1 is moving towards second. Your post reads, to me anyway, that if the throw goes to 2b and the runner returned to first, you will call a balk and award second. Can you site the rule or is that an interpretation? We had the play several times last summer – hence the interest. Thanks.

I think I have it wrong here. The interpretation I presented is a pro interp. I got from a minor league umpire.

FED says it's a balk if F1 throws to an unoccupied base "when it is not an attempt to put out or drive back a runner." So it seems like the up-and-over move to 2nd is perfectly legal unless the runner makes no movement at all towards 2nd base. SO..., I'm not going to balk him for feinting or throwing to 2nd, but I'm going to be very picky about the move. If there is any hesitation or if he steps toward home or 1st before the move to 2nd, he's getting banged.

It's a good thing the pro interpretation is different. Otherwise, Rickey Henderson would have about 10 career stolen bases instead of 1439.

If the runner stops, and returns to 1st base when the pitcher starts his move to 2nd base, but the pitcher does not throw to second base. is there a balk?

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Originally posted by brewerfan:
If the runner stops, and returns to 1st base when the pitcher starts his move to 2nd base, but the pitcher does not throw to second base. is there a balk?

Balks are F1 or F2 violations and having nothing to do with R.

What you may have seen is a trick play. The pitcher steps back with his pivot foot and raises his hands like he is pitching. The runner takes off and he turns and throws. Some umps call it a balk because it simulates a pitch but I argue it does not simulate many pitchers pitches if they do not raise their hands when they pitch. We used to use it all the time, but when we moved, the umps here all argue that it is a balk because it simulates a pitch even if it does not simulate the pitcher at the times pitch.

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Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
What you may have seen is a trick play. The pitcher steps back with his pivot foot and raises his hands like he is pitching. The runner takes off and he turns and throws. Some umps call it a balk because it simulates a pitch but I argue it does not simulate many pitchers pitches if they do not raise their hands when they pitch. We used to use it all the time, but when we moved, the umps here all argue that it is a balk because it simulates a pitch even if it does not simulate the pitcher at the times pitch.

And they would be correct. Just because a pitcher doesn't raise his hands normally doesn't mean that it isn't associated with a pitcher's normal motion. A pitcher can have twenty different motions and be legal. Well, if he steps off as he is making a motion, then it's a balk.
In a Fed game if a pitcher swings to second with a R1, if the runner does anything besides a normal secondary and returns, then it legal for the pitcher to go to second. He may throw or not, but he has to make a continuous motion.

How is it a balk? The rule clearly says that he has to simulate his pitch not a pitch. The pitcher raising his hands when he does not normally do it is not simulating his pitch but a pitch. That is not a balk. I said he stepped back with his pivot foot and then raised his hands. Clearly thought out and cleanly done.
I also love when umpires say he deceived the runner. Every pick-off move done is about deceiving the runner.
Explain how this is a balk.
I will give you another one. A right-handed pitcher steps backwards directly toward first base and throws to first. Is it a balk?
The rule does not say he has to step forward, just directly.

If I understand you correctly, the it is a balk. The accepted interp is if the foot is pointed more to first the home he is OK. If his heal is facing first then it is a balk. The reason for this is many pitchers step sideways toward first when from the wind-up. According to your interp then every pitch to the plate done in this fashion would be a balk.

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Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
How is it a balk? The rule clearly says that he has to simulate his pitch not a pitch. The pitcher raising his hands when he does not normally do it is not simulating his pitch but a pitch. That is not a balk. I said he stepped back with his pivot foot and then raised his hands. Clearly thought out and cleanly done.
I also love when umpires say he deceived the runner. Every pick-off move done is about deceiving the runner.
Explain how this is a balk.
I will give you another one. A right-handed pitcher steps backwards directly toward first base and throws to first. Is it a balk?
The rule does not say he has to step forward, just directly.

The interpretation is distance AND direction toward the base. Stepping backward, even if distance is gained toward the base, is a balk.

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Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
What you may have seen is a trick play. The pitcher steps back with his pivot foot and raises his hands like he is pitching.

Balk.

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blah blah blah who cares

I love it when RATS try their cheese on me.

"Blue, that pitch was right down the middle!!"

"RAT, my bad I was watching your F1 for his next surprising and ingenious action !!

"Blue, my F1 stepped off while faking a pitch. How come you rules safe on the pickoff?

"RAT, didn't you hear me call "TIME"?