BREAKING: Houston Astros GM Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch have been suspended for one year after an MLB investigation found the team used technology to cheat during its World Series-winning 2017 season, sources familiar with the punishment tell ESPN.
Additionally, MLB will fine the Astros $5 million and take away their first- and second-round picks in the 2020 and 2021 drafts, sources tell ESPN.
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Just saw that, they got hammered. So are the Red Sox next?
Wow. This kind of punishment may change behavior. Losing 1st and 2nd picks for two years... That will set a team back.
Thank you commish, may I have another!
Deterrence. A good first step. Losing four almost sure MLB players should send a message.
Not only losing the draft picks, but the slot money that they would then be able to "upgrade" their later picks will hurt just as bad.
Jeff Passan is reporting on Twitter that his sources are saying Alex Cora is next and punishment will be "severe".
Wow, indeed.
Astros have fired the GM and manager.
The shoes keep dropping.
The penalties seem about right. Except maybe for this:
"While the scheme to steal signs and relay them to batters by banging on a garbage can was 'player-driven,' MLB commissioner Rob Manfred wrote in a nine-page summary of the investigation, no players were disciplined -- including New York Mets manager Carlos Beltran, who played for the 2017 Astros and was implicated by Manfred as one of the players involved in decoding signs." https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...-fired-sign-stealing
I get that there is a collective bargaining agreement that (probably--I don't know) severely limits the punishments the league can impose on players, but this seems wrong. As an institutional matter, teams now have a real incentive to stop players from engaging in prohibited forms of sign-stealing. But the players themselves have literally zero reason to try to comply with the rules. Maybe the technology required means players won't be able to do this kind of thing without help from, or at least the knowledge of, management... Maybe. But should the players involved in this activity face no penalties at all?
Slap on the wrist. Very disappointing.
22and25 posted:Just saw that, they got hammered. So are the Red Sox next?
I think Cora, not the Red Sox, is next.
Cora's penalty will be from his time with Astros. No proof of Red Sox cheating.
RossGA posted:Slap on the wrist. Very disappointing.
Other than a lifetime ban, what more could Manfred have done? The $5M fine is trivial, but I have read that is the largest the relevant rules allowed.
Luhnow and Hinch may or may not get hired right away by another team next year—that will be interesting. But a one-year ban seems like a hefty penalty. And for the organization to lose its top two picks for two years is going to sting.
hshuler posted:22and25 posted:Just saw that, they got hammered. So are the Red Sox next?
I think Cora, not the Red Sox, is next.
Cora's penalty will be from his time with Astros. No proof of Red Sox cheating.
hshuler, that may be premature (unless you have read something I missed; which is entirely possible). It sure sounds like Cora is going to be penalized--probably for his conduct with the Astros. But I thought the Red Sox investigation was ongoing?
I don't think it's a slap on the wrist. More harsh than I expected. It feels like pretty close to the max penalties allowed
Chico Escuela posted:hshuler posted:22and25 posted:Just saw that, they got hammered. So are the Red Sox next?
I think Cora, not the Red Sox, is next.
Cora's penalty will be from his time with Astros. No proof of Red Sox cheating.
hshuler, that may be premature (unless you have read something I missed; which is entirely possible). It sure sounds like Cora is going to be penalized--probably for his conduct with the Astros. But I thought the Red Sox investigation was ongoing?
I should have said no proof of the Red Sox cheating as of yet.
Wow, this is harsh. I wonder if MLB has determined that this was limited to the Astros (and maybe Red Sox). Could get messy if additional allegations about other clubs start leaking out.
I’m pretty sure the Astros anticipated harsh penalties. I know a few kids who are potential top two round draft prospects and the only team that hasn’t done a home visit with them is the Astros.
Here's something I don't understand: MLB found the Astros stole signs in 2017 and won the World Series. But the cheating was supposedly limited to that year. So, team cheats and wins it all, then decides to stop cheating... because it worked too well the prior year??? That is the part I wonder about--is MLB trying to do damage control by limiting this to a single season?
[Or the year after Cora left, the Astros' cheating stopped, and the Red Sox won the WS. But nobody tried to cheat in 2019. Because it worked too well for two years in a row,]
This is far worse than what led to a lifetime ban for Coppoella (spelling?). I thing a lifetime ban for Cora, Luhnow, Hinch and Beltran should be a minimum. Vacate the 2017 WS title all players return the rings. Players need penalties. If you participated, your contract and service time are void and you can go back in the draft. Now this won't happen again. Not sure if anything can be done on the fine, but $ 5 million per trash can bang would have been better. We are talking about the integrity of the game and the message we are sending to kids. Needed more than a slap on the wrist.
Chico Escuela posted:Here's something I don't understand: MLB found the Astros stole signs in 2017 and won the World Series. But the cheating was supposedly limited to that year. So, team cheats and wins it all, then decides to stop cheating... because it worked too well the prior year??? That is the part I wonder about--is MLB trying to do damage control by limiting this to a single season?
[Or the year after Cora left, the Astros' cheating stopped, and the Red Sox won the WS. But nobody tried to cheat in 2019. Because it worked too well for two years in a row,]
Yeah - my thought exactly...I think that they are trying to draw scope by defining cheating to mean electronic surveillance and real time notification....otherwise there are probably too many potential cases to punish.
A disturbing continuation of integrity issues with our game the last 25 years -
... exciting record-breaking season HR battle between Sosa and McGuire... oh wait, never mind. They both cheated. Yet, the numbers stand. A few years later, Bonds shatters that HR record as well as the all time career HR record... oh wait, he cheated too.. but the numbers stand. Last year, HR's hit at record pace... oh wait, the balls are different. The Astro's show signs of a modern day dynasty... oh wait... and the world series trophies remain in the case.
Of course, go back a little ways further... All time hits leader Pete Rose took amphetamines and had a major gambling problem, including betting on MLB baseball games while managing MLB baseball games. And on and on... It's starting to become more difficult for even us most ardent supporters of the game to see it as America's Pastime.
Comment from manfred. He applauds the analytics and player dev juggernaut the luhnow regime created but also says that they have been problematic in their dealing with employees, media and other teams.
https://twitter.com/lindseyadl...800234526986241?s=09
Also interesting (not in this post) that apparently luhnow wanted to draft heimlich but was talked out of (probably by owner).
cabbagedad posted:A disturbing continuation of integrity issues with our game the last 25 years -
... exciting record-breaking season HR battle between Sosa and McGuire... oh wait, never mind. They both cheated. Yet, the numbers stand. A few years later, Bonds shatters that HR record as well as the all time career HR record... oh wait, he cheated too.. but the numbers stand. Last year, HR's hit at record pace... oh wait, the balls are different. The Astro's show signs of a modern day dynasty... oh wait... and the world series trophies remain in the case.
Of course, go back a little ways further... All time hits leader Pete Rose took amphetamines and had a major gambling problem, including betting on MLB baseball games while managing MLB baseball games. And on and on... It's starting to become more difficult for even us most ardent supporters of the game to see it as America's Pastime.
I think if you went back to the very beginning of the game you could find reference to the moral decay within baseball written in some paper at any given point in history. Some of the games most prominent heros from the past were drunks, adulterers, criminals and just down right mean people. The Black Sox scandal was 100 years ago and there has been plenty of good and bad both before and since. There are players from every possible walk of American life throughout the game's history and they all bring their own moral compass to the ballpark. You can't get much more American than that......
The general consensus of the Boston sports media is Cora is a dead man walking. He was the man behind the acts in Houston and Boston. His penalties will probably be more severe. The media expects him to be fired.
Nothing will happen until there’s a full investigation of the Red Sox situation.
RJM posted:The general consensus of the Boston sports media is Cora is a dead man walking. He was the man behind the acts in Houston and Boston. His penalties will probably be more severe. The media expects him to be fired.
Nothing will happen until there’s a full investigation of the Red Sox situation.
It will be interesting to see whether Cora gets a harsher punishment as a two-time offender (if he is one). I also am wondering if a year from now, when the suspensions are over, Luhnow's and Hinch's services (Cora's, too) are in the same kind of high demand they would have enjoyed pre-scandal, or if there is some kind of lingering stain on their reputations.
PED users did see varying hits to their marketability and legacies--although a lot of that was because after they were busted, teams were concerned about how well they could play without a chemical boost. Luhnow, Hinch and Cora all are still very talented baseball guys, even without the aid of clanging trash can lids, so my bet is they pick up pretty much as though nothing happened. And that may be perfectly reasonable, since at that point they will have paid their proverbial debt to society (or to MLB) by serving their sentences.
What about the players? Bregman, Altuve, Betts, etc. are still great, but you really have to wonder whether they ought to have an asterisk beside the 2017 or 2018 seasons. (Yeah, I have heard Houston's team batting average was higher in away games in 2017. I still say knowing when a breaking pitch was coming during home games would have been a major advantage for an MLB hitter. Obviously the teams thought so, too, since they were willing to cheat for that edge.)
And it sucks to be the Dodgers. To think the same team lost the WS in both tainted seasons.
RJM posted:The general consensus of the Boston sports media is Cora is a dead man walking. He was the man behind the acts in Houston and Boston. His penalties will probably be more severe. The media expects him to be fired.
Nothing will happen until there’s a full investigation of the Red Sox situation.
Oh, Cora's screwed. I'd love to see Varitek get some consideration as a replacement from the front office. Who you got, RJM?
I think it's a light punishment. The draft picks hurt and that was warranted, I mean more in regards to Hinch and the staff behind the operation. By coming down with a suspension the MLB is saying they can prove he was in on the cheating. They can prove he was cheating which led to a World Series - but he only gets a year? That is what seems light to me. I'm not sure what Luhnow's involvement was, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was just collateral.
This will change the Astros organization for the next 10 years. When all their homegrown guys come up in contract years they will not be able to resign knowing they have 4 less elite prospects in their system. Expect the current young guys to be dished for draft picks near the end of their contracts. Whoever takes over at GM is going to have his work cut out and a tough career ahead of him, especially when you start down 4 top prospects and have to sign a bunch of guys who can get their money anywhere. I would imagine they would draft high school heavy to rebuild down the line or college heavy to salvage what they have and get those guys up while the studs are still around (Bregman, Correa, etc.). That is what I would expect at least.
Well, I for one, am so glad all the emphasis on spin rate, pitch design and analytics were successful against a garbage can and a video camera to steal signs....
What about the players? The players carried out the plan, benefited from the plan--and are getting ZERO punishment. The more I cogitate on that, the more it bothers me.
RossGA posted:This is far worse than what led to a lifetime ban for Coppoella (spelling?). I thing a lifetime ban for Cora, Luhnow, Hinch and Beltran should be a minimum. Vacate the 2017 WS title all players return the rings. Players need penalties. If you participated, your contract and service time are void and you can go back in the draft. Now this won't happen again. Not sure if anything can be done on the fine, but $ 5 million per trash can bang would have been better. We are talking about the integrity of the game and the message we are sending to kids. Needed more than a slap on the wrist.
I agree. Everyone on the team was in on it, including Bregman, Springer, Verlander, etc. All of them cheated. All of them knew they were cheating. All of them should pay a price - at a minimum return the rings and refund their bonuses. Just disgraceful.
fenwaysouth posted:RJM posted:The general consensus of the Boston sports media is Cora is a dead man walking. He was the man behind the acts in Houston and Boston. His penalties will probably be more severe. The media expects him to be fired.
Nothing will happen until there’s a full investigation of the Red Sox situation.
Oh, Cora's screwed. I'd love to see Varitek get some consideration as a replacement from the front office. Who you got, RJM?
Roenicke ... He has prior managing experience. Or, since the Sox don’t seem to be putting together a team that can compete maybe pull a fan out of the seats each game and give him a shot. Win and you coach tomorrow. Lose and you’re done.
hshuler posted:I’m pretty sure the Astros anticipated harsh penalties. I know a few kids who are potential top two round draft prospects and the only team that hasn’t done a home visit with them is the Astros.
This may have more to do with the fact that we were told the Astros are phasing out scouts and going on analytics and video. Regardless, I think the 4 picks will hurt them and I think this (cheating) is probably going on to varying degrees a lot more than we think.
PABaseball posted:I think it's a light punishment. The draft picks hurt and that was warranted,....
I don't think this was light punishment. I think this was FAIR punishment to the organization and field mgt who were in on it. Definitely the draft picks and the suspensions got everybody's attention in an MLB front office.
The punishment was too light/non-existent on the players that carried this out. These are grown men who knew what they were doing. Agree 100% with Chico that this bothers me. The MLB is going to look the other way on the players? Seriously? I don't get this part of the MLB punishment decision.
Chico Escuela posted:What about the players? The players carried out the plan, benefited from the plan--and are getting ZERO punishment. The more I cogitate on that, the more it bothers me.
It bothers me as well. But because of their CBA and a strong players union they won't get touched.
Luhnow released his statement via his attorney. He stated he is not a cheater and pointed the finger at his coaches and players, but accepted responsibility for the cheating that occurred on his watch. The Commisioner did not directly implicate him for misconduct.
I am a Luhnow fan, always will be. Can't imagine the pain of having worked your entire life to build your reputation and the people you gave opportunities to work under you went ahead and fked it up. They also did not help the future for MLB.
I will never watch an Astros game again.
TPM posted:Chico Escuela posted:What about the players? The players carried out the plan, benefited from the plan--and are getting ZERO punishment. The more I cogitate on that, the more it bothers me.
It bothers me as well. But because of their CBA and a strong players union they won't get touched.
Luhnow released his statement via his attorney. He stated he is not a cheater and pointed the finger at his coaches and players, but accepted responsibility for the cheating that occurred on his watch. The Commisioner did not directly implicate him for misconduct.
I am a Luhnow fan, always will be. Can't imagine the pain of having worked your entire life to build your reputation and the people you gave opportunities to work under you went ahead and fked it up. They also did not help the future for MLB.
I will never watch an Astros game again.
Serious question (no sarcasm intended): Do you believe Luhnow didn't know this was going on? Even after the Red Sox were fined in 2017 and Manfred warned teams that he would take future offenses very seriously?
I assume Luhnow spent very little, if any, time in the dugout during games. But he seems very much the kind of guy who would be a hands-on sort of manager. I admit to knowing precious little about the facts or about Luhnow's day-to-day activities, but it's hard for me to believe he was completely in the dark about this (unless maybe he chose to be--which is no defense IMO).
Chico Escuela posted:TPM posted:Chico Escuela posted:What about the players? The players carried out the plan, benefited from the plan--and are getting ZERO punishment. The more I cogitate on that, the more it bothers me.
It bothers me as well. But because of their CBA and a strong players union they won't get touched.
Luhnow released his statement via his attorney. He stated he is not a cheater and pointed the finger at his coaches and players, but accepted responsibility for the cheating that occurred on his watch. The Commisioner did not directly implicate him for misconduct.
I am a Luhnow fan, always will be. Can't imagine the pain of having worked your entire life to build your reputation and the people you gave opportunities to work under you went ahead and fked it up. They also did not help the future for MLB.
I will never watch an Astros game again.
Serious question (no sarcasm intended): Do you believe Luhnow didn't know this was going on? Even after the Red Sox were fined in 2017 and Manfred warned teams that he would take future offenses very seriously?
I assume Luhnow spent very little, if any, time in the dugout during games. But he seems very much the kind of guy who would be a hands-on sort of manager. I admit to knowing precious little about the facts or about Luhnow's day-to-day activities, but it's hard for me to believe he was completely in the dark about this (unless maybe he chose to be--which is no defense IMO).
Luhnow drafted son when he was with the Cardinals, so there is a connection there for me.
GMs don't spend time in the dugout. They have people that leave the day to day management of the team to others.
The commissioner did not implicate him in the crime.
I don't believe he was aware of what was going on. Never appeared to be a look the other way kind of person.
TPM & Chico,
So, I'm assuming the commish's message to all MLB GM's is you better know what is going on in your dugout. Ignorance is not bliss. If there is something going on, you better do something about it. While he did not implicate him directly he certainly held him accountable.
Couple takeaways. I will stay clear of others opinions of too light, too harsh, just right on the punishment.
1) If you cheat, lie, steal, or take/give a bribe, you are a cheater, liar, thief or corrupt for life. Once dirty, dirty forever in many people's eyes. If you took PED's once, you are a PED user for life. No matter how clean the rest of your life is, or how many good deeds you do, you will be seen by some as your worst deed. You live with your choices. This is the message to pass to young people.
2) Someone's HOF chances just went down.
As an Astros fan since 1981, I would like to see all position players from 2017 roster traded. Happy Crane fired Luhnow and Hinch.
There is an asterisk on the World Series and the current players accomplishment, whether BBREF puts one there or not.
fenwaysouth posted:TPM & Chico,
So, I'm assuming the commish's message to all MLB GM's is you better know what is going on in your dugout. Ignorance is not bliss. If there is something going on, you better do something about it. While he did not implicate him directly he certainly held him accountable.
I know I understand, but I have my opinion.
I believe what he said, but I agree that he deserved to be fired.
Waiting to see what Cora's fate is, HE really should be given a lifetime suspension.
JMO
Went home for lunch and briefly listened to some Will Cain. ..heard some interesting, albeit slanted, takes on one aspect of the effect of the cheating via an interview with Plaschke.
His viewpoint was that without the cheating, the Dodgers would have won that series in six. What was interesting is his further delving into the impact... Some examples - Yu Darvish was basically run out of LA after failing in the series after having been very successful otherwise during the season. Kershaw's image/reputation as having failed on the big stage may have been reversed with success in that series. Dave Roberts would be seen in an entirely different light with a WS title under his belt. The Dodgers' overall fortunes, player and personnel salary and opportunities likely affected long term as Series Champs always carries considerable resume weight as well as the direct compensation, etc., etc. As he was talking through it, there was almost a "Back to the Future" feel.
One could certainly carry this argument further downstream.
Jeff Passan on ESPN.com (I want to read Manfred’s report For myself; haven’t done so yet):
“information in Manfred's report that "at least two emails sent to Luhnow" informed him of replay-review room sign decoding, about which he did nothing.“
Maybe Luhnow never read the emails, or didn’t take them seriously. But this is not a great look.
Whole article is an interesting read: https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...stealing-punishments
Interesting. Who sends an email to someone when the implications are huge?
I am gonna use a phrase that you have all heard.
The fish stinks from the head down.
Sounds like Crane wasn't in the dark either, and MLB gave in to him and the other owners.
JMO.
I am kinda done with this. It's just such a shame.
Cora and Red Sox mutually agree to part ways.
hshuler posted:Cora and Red Sox mutually agree to part ways.
The conversation went a little like this:
Red Sox: "So, we both agree that you have to get fired, right?"
Cora: "If you say so."
collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:hshuler posted:Cora and Red Sox mutually agree to part ways.
The conversation went a little like this:
Red Sox: "So, we both agree that you have to get fired, right?"
Cora: "If you say so."
Like this:
Yankees minor league team doing mini trash can promo
https://twitter.com/SIYanks/st...180321973776385?s=19
This is just getting started.
Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.
K9 posted:This is just getting started.
Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.
Bingo. There may be a lot of clubs looking for new GMs and Managers, and a lot of clubs getting draft picks that would have gone to other teams. Detroit, Miami and Baltimore may be able to pull themselves out of the MLB dumpster by getting more talented draft picks thanks to the greed of these other teams. Just a thought.
Don't worry, the O's will more likely blow that chance as well. Story of my life At least I can say I don't ride band-wagons, lol
fenwaysouth posted:K9 posted:This is just getting started.
Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.
Bingo. There may be a lot of clubs looking for new GMs and Managers, and a lot of clubs getting draft picks that would have gone to other teams. Detroit, Miami and Baltimore may be able to pull themselves out of the MLB dumpster by getting more talented draft picks thanks to the greed of these other teams. Just a thought.
My guess is that the Astros will be the only team that will be punished.
ReluctantO'sFan posted:Don't worry, the O's will more likely blow that chance as well. Story of my life
At least I can say I don't ride band-wagons, lol
Given Baltimore's recent history in managing the team draft choices and trades, as an O's fan I'm not all that optimistic. But after last season there's no where to go but up (I hope!).
K9 posted:This is just getting started.
Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.
I think most teams "cheat" to some extent. Astros were just stupid and out of control. Manfred made an example out of them. I don't think MLB will push too hard on the other clubs, with the exception of the Red Sox.
K9 posted:This is just getting started.
Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.
Should be interesting... we seem to have reached a very pivotal point. A player specifically calls out several offenders (can you say "Jose Canseco"?). Will baseball act and investigate, which would open a huge can (excuse the pun)? Or will they just draw the line in the sand and say "no more - you're all on notice"?
cabbagedad posted:K9 posted:This is just getting started.
Logan Morrison: “I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs”.
Should be interesting... we seem to have reached a very pivotal point. A player specifically calls out several offenders (can you say "Jose Canseco"?). Will baseball act and investigate, which would open a huge can (excuse the pun)? Or will they just draw the line in the sand and say "no more - you're all on notice"?
MLB mirrors much of what we see and hear everyday. People cheat. They cheat for all different reasons, in this case, it's about being #1, which brings rewards, fame and fortune. Sorry, there is a lot more to life than being #1, and you can be successful without cheating.
Sit down with your kids and have the talk. It's important. We need to change the narrative. You have to get up each day and look yourself in the mirror and ask, how can I make a positive difference to others.
FoxDad posted:ReluctantO'sFan posted:Don't worry, the O's will more likely blow that chance as well. Story of my life
Given Baltimore's recent history in managing the team draft choices and trades, as an O's fan I'm not all that optimistic. But after last season there's no where to go but up (I hope!).
I would hope UP is the only place left to go, lol, but I have learned to keep my expectations low over the years. Stings a little less that way!
If any team really needed a camera system set-up with a stupid trash-can banger it was the O's. Probably wouldn't of matter anyway, overpaid 1st baseman couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat
FWIW our own Kyle Boddy is a fan of new GM Mike Elias. I have always thought that in pro sports, good owners were more important than good management, but hopefully I’m wrong and the new regime can turn things around for all of us long-suffering O’s fans.
Another domino...Carlos Beltran "stepping down" as Met's manager.
Good. Lots of Mets fans whining about it, and the timing sucks, but it's much better not to have a cloud over the club before pitchers and catchers even get to camp.
If they are whining about BVW making a bad hire to start with that is understandable. If they are whining about a cheater being let go, that is ridiculous.
This is about to get reeeeally interesting.
This is a good time to root for our boys and our IRL friends' boys' & HSBBWEB friends' boys' college baseball teams and stop paying very much attention to MLB.
HSHULER that's nuts. I can't seem to find anywhere what the buzzer did. Were they pushing it for certain pitches? Was it a microphone? Man, this is going to get MUCH worse before it blows over. Vacating the championships has to be coming next. Now we will see the Gibbons, Matheny Showalter and the like get jobs again. I hope our kids learn something from it one way or another. Work so hard and then have something like this derail your career.....
1st thought: 
2nd: The fact no one mentioned these charges during the recent investigation (assuming they did not do so) makes me skeptical. This seems calculated to stir the pot, not to lead to any resolution.
3rd: But the Altuve shirt-ripping thing is kind of odd...
4th: Can there be any doubt that it's time for MLB to move to encrypted communications links between players and the dugout? No usable system of relaying signs in the old way is going to be secure given 2020 technology.
Kimb27 posted:HSHULER that's nuts. I can't seem to find anywhere what the buzzer did. Were they pushing it for certain pitches? Was it a microphone? Man, this is going to get MUCH worse before it blows over. Vacating the championships has to be coming next. Now we will see the Gibbons, Matheny Showalter and the like get jobs again. I hope our kids learn something from it one way or another. Work so hard and then have something like this derail your career.....
Not sure of the details but you I’m sure there’s more to come.
hshuler posted:Kimb27 posted:HSHULER that's nuts. I can't seem to find anywhere what the buzzer did. Were they pushing it for certain pitches? Was it a microphone? Man, this is going to get MUCH worse before it blows over. Vacating the championships has to be coming next. Now we will see the Gibbons, Matheny Showalter and the like get jobs again. I hope our kids learn something from it one way or another. Work so hard and then have something like this derail your career.....
Not sure of the details but you I’m sure there’s more to come.
Wow.... Altuve does seem really, ummm, interested in taking care of that jersey.
A prosecutor in a criminal case would start offering plea bargains to try to "flip" a witness. What happens if Manfred calls Hinch, Cora, Luhnow and Beltran and says "the first one of you to tell me the entire truth can avoid a lifetime ban"?
Chico Escuela posted:hshuler posted:Kimb27 posted:HSHULER that's nuts. I can't seem to find anywhere what the buzzer did. Were they pushing it for certain pitches? Was it a microphone? Man, this is going to get MUCH worse before it blows over. Vacating the championships has to be coming next. Now we will see the Gibbons, Matheny Showalter and the like get jobs again. I hope our kids learn something from it one way or another. Work so hard and then have something like this derail your career.....
Not sure of the details but you I’m sure there’s more to come.
Wow.... Altuve does seem really, ummm, interested in taking care of that jersey.
A prosecutor in a criminal case would start offering plea bargains to try to "flip" a witness. What happens if Manfred calls Hinch, Cora, Luhnow and Beltran and says "the first one of you to tell me the entire truth can avoid a lifetime ban"?
The owner of this twitter account says that she’s Beltran’s niece The Beltran family has said that she isn’t a relative.
This person may not be Beltran’s niece but it’s ironic that they posted Beltran has steeped down last night but the announcement wasn’t made until today. My guess is that it’s a ghost account but the owner has an ax to grind. The most interesting comment is that they have locker room pics for a rainy day.
hshuler posted:This is about to get reeeeally interesting.
Wow. That is crazy.
I'm not sure what MLB can do to discipline the players due to the Players Association. Management has been made the scapegoats, and the players will be able to say that Hinch/Cora pressured them to it.
K9 posted:I'm not sure what MLB can do to discipline the players due to the Players Association. Management has been made the scapegoats, and the players will be able to say that Hinch/Cora pressured them to it.
Maybe. But Altuve is a former MVP, and Bregman, Springer and others weren't going to be benched without the matter attracting a lot of notice. I wouldn't buy that they could be coerced into cheating. There is also the fact that the players may have lied to MLB's investigators--I thought they received immunity at least in part in exchange for providing information. I don't pretend to know the details of the union's contract, but if MLB can't discipline players in circumstances like those alleged here, then that's a critical problem.
IMO, wearable buzzers take the scandal to another level, because it requires a different degree of coordination among multiple people on and off the field. It also seems likely to be much more effective than trying to pick out the sound of a trash can banging in a crowded stadium.
Obviously we need more facts. But just having these new allegations surface is bad. MLB will have to investigate and can't say "well, that's all behind us now." I assume people are already scrutinizing game films to look for Astros players suspiciously tugging at their collars. That footage of Altuve homering off Chapman does look awfully odd now.
"MLB explored wearable devices during the investigation but found no evidence to substantiate it.” (from Joel Sherman, NY Post)
I am not defending the Astros players and maybe the claimed locker room photos will come out but this theory raises a couple of questions:
If you are going to blow this thing open by tweeting about it and claim to have addition proof....why not just blow it open with the proof right now? If you have pics post 'em up.
Also, if he has to protect himself from teammates ripping his shirt off to hide the cheating device does that mean they don't know?
22and25 posted:I am not defending the Astros players and maybe the claimed locker room photos will come out but this theory raises a couple of questions:
If you are going to blow this thing open by tweeting about it and claim to have addition proof....why not just blow it open with the proof right now? If you have pics post 'em up.
Also, if he has to protect himself from teammates ripping his shirt off to hide the cheating device does that mean they don't know?
Fortunes are made tweeting, posting, alleging innuendo and unsubstantiated accusations.
Whatever is true or not no longer matters. Astros and any position player on the 2017/18 roster have a red "C" stamped on their forehead. It will be there for a lifetime.
If inside the game it was known that signs were being stolen and relayed in real time, why didn't teams change to a different sign system? The yell out of apparently random numbers/color with a wristband a 12U softball team uses would suffice.
Go44dad posted:22and25 posted:I am not defending the Astros players and maybe the claimed locker room photos will come out but this theory raises a couple of questions:
If you are going to blow this thing open by tweeting about it and claim to have addition proof....why not just blow it open with the proof right now? If you have pics post 'em up.
Also, if he has to protect himself from teammates ripping his shirt off to hide the cheating device does that mean they don't know?
Fortunes are made tweeting, posting, alleging innuendo and unsubstantiated accusations.
Whatever is true or not no longer matters. Astros and any position player on the 2017/18 roster have a red "C" stamped on their forehead. It will be there for a lifetime.
If inside the game it was known that signs were being stolen and relayed in real time, why didn't teams change to a different sign system? The yell out of apparently random numbers/color with a wristband a 12U softball team uses would suffice.
I think it was reported that the Nationals went to extreme measures to protect their signs during the World Series.
Go44dad posted:22and25 posted:I am not defending the Astros players and maybe the claimed locker room photos will come out but this theory raises a couple of questions:
If you are going to blow this thing open by tweeting about it and claim to have addition proof....why not just blow it open with the proof right now? If you have pics post 'em up.
Also, if he has to protect himself from teammates ripping his shirt off to hide the cheating device does that mean they don't know?
Fortunes are made tweeting, posting, alleging innuendo and unsubstantiated accusations.
Whatever is true or not no longer matters. Astros and any position player on the 2017/18 roster have a red "C" stamped on their forehead. It will be there for a lifetime.
If inside the game it was known that signs were being stolen and relayed in real time, why didn't teams change to a different sign system? The yell out of apparently random numbers/color with a wristband a 12U softball team uses would suffice.
The buzzer allegations, and Altuve video posted above are from the 2019 ALCS. In game 2 of the series Corea hit a walk off bomb in the 11th. After he crossed the plate another player ripped his jersey open and eventually off. No wires or bulges seen under his compression layer.
Kimb27 posted:HSHULER that's nuts. I can't seem to find anywhere what the buzzer did. Were they pushing it for certain pitches? Was it a microphone? Man, this is going to get MUCH worse before it blows over. Vacating the championships has to be coming next. Now we will see the Gibbons, Matheny Showalter and the like get jobs again. I hope our kids learn something from it one way or another. Work so hard and then have something like this derail your career.....
Vacating championships? That will happen right after all steroid era statistics are erased.
And one more thought.....if the buzzer was an escalation for 2019, over banging drums and then whistling, how would Beltran's niece know anything about it or have Astros locker room access.....he wasn't with the Astros in 2018 or 2019. In fact, Beltran worked for the Yankees in 2018 and 2019 as a special advisor. Did he advise the Yankees on the same things he taught the Astros?
22and25 posted:And one more thought.....if the buzzer was an escalation for 2019, over banging drums and then whistling, how would Beltran's niece know anything about it or have Astros locker room access.....he wasn't with the Astros in 2018 or 2019. In fact, Beltran worked for the Yankees in 2018 and 2019 as a special advisor. Did he advise the Yankees on the same things he taught the Astros?
I don’t think anyone believes that it’s Beltran’s niece but it’s clearly someone with an axe to grind.
This is interesting if you zoom in.
https://twitter.com/stephenjne...907336418877443?s=12
Go44dad posted:If inside the game it was known that signs were being stolen and relayed in real time, why didn't teams change to a different sign system? The yell out of apparently random numbers/color with a wristband a 12U softball team uses would suffice.
Do you seriously think that with hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, the best baseball players, coaches and analytics guys in the world didn't do whatever they workably could to protect their signs? If it were as easy as a 12U softball game, would anybody be talking about this?
Clearly, I don’t have a dog in the fight but we talk all things baseball here and this will be a story for a while until the next big thing.
As a fan of baseball, I like hearing the diverse opinions and perspectives from other baseball fans. Without fail, someone here gives me a perspective that I didn’t think about.
Go44dad posted:22and25 posted:I am not defending the Astros players and maybe the claimed locker room photos will come out but this theory raises a couple of questions:
If you are going to blow this thing open by tweeting about it and claim to have addition proof....why not just blow it open with the proof right now? If you have pics post 'em up.
Also, if he has to protect himself from teammates ripping his shirt off to hide the cheating device does that mean they don't know?
Fortunes are made tweeting, posting, alleging innuendo and unsubstantiated accusations.
Whatever is true or not no longer matters. Astros and any position player on the 2017/18 roster have a red "C" stamped on their forehead. It will be there for a lifetime.
If inside the game it was known that signs were being stolen and relayed in real time, why didn't teams change to a different sign system? The yell out of apparently random numbers/color with a wristband a 12U softball team uses would suffice.
Stros are now marked as cheaters - agreed. But to me it does matter if this (seemingly far fetched) buzzer allegation turns out to be true, because it shows a much more coordinated and advanced system of cheating? And it impacts 2019 whereas the existing taint is to 2017-18? It could all be BS, but this is a different level above and beyond banging on a trash can lol.
Don't say red "C" because that is the Indians new logo on their hats that replaced Chief Wahoo!
Thinking about it now, maybe that is why Cleveland never wins anything - b/c they don't cheat?? Just a theory....
It easy to photoshop pictures.
RJM posted:It easy to photoshop pictures.
Agreed but what interesting is I think “Beltran’s niece” said Altuve and Bregman wore devices on the right shoulder and this is something on the left shoulder...but ******* swings lefty.
Again, lots of different opinions about all of this. I’ve gotten 100+ text messages from various people in my baseball circle so lots to digest.
There’s another interesting story out there that I want to see if it has legs or not. It could be a big deal and it could be nothing but it’s interesting because I’m a fan of baseball.
For the record, I’m a glass half full guy and tend the think the best of people and not the worst and I’ve made many mistakes in my life so I also tend to be a giver of second chances.
Explain this, Shu!
Go44dad posted:Explain this, Shu!
No explanation, my friend! 🤣
The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree.
Although there was the infamous 1994 Albert Belle corked bat incident. There goes that theory!
hshuler posted:Go44dad posted:Explain this, Shu!
No explanation, my friend! 🤣
The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree.
At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life. I'm looking for a new team. Must be in Eastern time zone. A 6:00 CST start sounds good. Can't stay up past 9:00. Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets. Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't. I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.
Go44dad posted:hshuler posted:Go44dad posted:Explain this, Shu!
No explanation, my friend! 🤣
The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree.
At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life. I'm looking for a new team. Must be in Eastern time zone. A 6:00 CST start sounds good. Can't stay up past 9:00. Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets. Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't. I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.
We need more Braves fans because people aren’t happy about their lack of activity in free agency.
Arenado would be huge but don’t think Braves will make it happen. My money is in the Cards.
Definitely do NOT become a Braves fan, ownership only cares about cash, not competing for a championship. Revenue = $ 450 million | Payroll = $ 130 million. JOKE.
RossGA posted:Definitely do NOT become a Braves fan, ownership only cares about cash, not competing for a championship. Revenue = $ 450 million | Payroll = $ 130 million. JOKE.
Probably not Braves. I’m still a little sore about all the foot outside strike calls Glavine, Smoltz and Maddux got back in the ‘90’s.
RossGA posted:Definitely do NOT become a Braves fan, ownership only cares about cash, not competing for a championship. Revenue = $ 450 million | Payroll = $ 130 million. JOKE.
A couple additions and they’d probably be legitimate contender. There ownership will learn about Atlanta fans soon. 😂
Go44dad posted:RossGA posted:Definitely do NOT become a Braves fan, ownership only cares about cash, not competing for a championship. Revenue = $ 450 million | Payroll = $ 130 million. JOKE.
Probably not Braves. I’m still a little sore about all the foot outside strike calls Glavine, Smoltz and Maddux got back in the ‘90’s.
Touché
If you like scrappy underdogs that survive and thrive among to big spenders in the AL East, I recommend the Rays. (Although you have to get used to rooting for a lot of new guys every year, because the team can't afford to keep its stars.) And the Trop isn't as bad as it's made out to be.
Go44dad posted:hshuler posted:Go44dad posted:Explain this, Shu!
No explanation, my friend! 🤣
The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree.
At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life. I'm looking for a new team. Must be in Eastern time zone. A 6:00 CST start sounds good. Can't stay up past 9:00. Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets. Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't. I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.
Orioles need some help
Texas1836 posted:Go44dad posted:hshuler posted:Go44dad posted:Explain this, Shu!
No explanation, my friend! 🤣
The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree.
At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life. I'm looking for a new team. Must be in Eastern time zone. A 6:00 CST start sounds good. Can't stay up past 9:00. Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets. Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't. I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.
Orioles need some help
Yeah, Lots of help. From the top down.
Chico Escuela posted:If you like scrappy underdogs that survive and thrive among to big spenders in the AL East, I recommend the Rays. (Although you have to get used to rooting for a lot of new guys every year, because the team can't afford to keep its stars.) And the Trop isn't as bad as it's made out to be.
Yup. I'm a Red Sox fan by birth, so I'll never shake that, but really admire what the Rays do.
Go44dad posted:hshuler posted:Go44dad posted:Explain this, Shu!
No explanation, my friend! 🤣
The Astros have admitted the crime and have received their punishment. I have talked to several people who say that certain folks should be banned for life. I’m not in the camp after thinking about it but I don’t think that everyone has to think like me. I can respect everyone’s opinion even when I don’t agree.
At this time, they are banned for the rest of my life. I'm looking for a new team. Must be in Eastern time zone. A 6:00 CST start sounds good. Can't stay up past 9:00. Can't do Yankees, Red Sox, Mets. Tried the Phillies last year and just couldn't. I'm thinking Jays, Rays or Braves.
My local and national league team is the Nationals. Been following them since they started when they were absolutely terrible, and watched them blossom last year. Can't go wrong with the Nats! Besides, the mascot is an American Eagle which is kind of cool.
I really do prefer National League baseball over American League baseball. In 2020, I will be watching and attending lots of Nats games because I will not be watching Red Sox games (or purchasing MLB package). I've put the Red Sox in mental time out, and I will not be spending any money to attend or watch Red Sox games this year.
It used to be that I thought the players and managers were the good guys and the GM and front office were a bunch of wankers. That perspective is gone. With this scandal, I think the commissioner has to do something with the players. How is this different from players like Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson who had lifetime bans put on them for gambling or taking money to throw a game? In my mind this level and degree of cheating is far worse than gambling because it involves the whole team, yet nothing is being done to the players. If I was commissioner, the players, coach and any front office personnel would be banned from baseball for life. Houston and other teams would be promoting a lot of AAA guys for the 2020 season.
Sorry for the left turn onto Rant Avenue but this has really got me pissed off probably because my team is part of it.
As always, JMO.
fenwaysouth posted:....
I really do prefer National League baseball over American League baseball. ....
Many years ago, someone explained MLB to me this way: "In the American League, they use a Designated Hitter; and in the National League, they play baseball."
