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10U Pitcher Curveballs

JC Jeff Connell100+ posts
We played a team from Atlanta last weekend that was nationally ranked. The pitcher came out in the first inning and threw 3 curveballs warming up. He progressed to throwing 17 curveballs in 1 2/3 innings. We hit them because the week before we had faced a kid who threw an average of one to every batter and our kids were not ready so we worked hard last week on hitting them.
The kid this week only threw 1 2/3 because we were hitting him and HE STARTED HOLDING HIS ELBOW AND SHOULDER AFTER EVERY PITCH. Coach finally pulled him. We were talking during first inning that at the rate he was going he would not be pitching by 12. I wanted to yell, great job coach. That is why 10 year olds don't need to throw curve balls. Why do these coaches teach it and parents allow it?
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SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
OK, before we get all worked up about this wives' tale, can anyone provide a link to a study that says curveballs are causing more injuries than other pitches?

NY Times - Studies Show That the Curveball Isn’t Too Stressful for Young Arms

Approx. 30% of pitches thrown the next year in the 11-12 yo LLWS are curveballs.

Throwing 17 curveballs, with good mechanics, proper warmup, proper rest between outings, and good conditioning, approx. 35 mph likely did not hurt this kid's shoulder and elbow.

BTW, I have seen quite a few 10-12 yo hold some part of their body after they started getting hammered Big Grin
Last edited by SultanofSwat
PD PA Dino500+ posts
the same person who said this:
quote:
“Why did people believe the world was flat? Because one guy told another it was flat and it looked flat. Until someone discovered that it wasn’t,”


said this:
quote:
“I don’t think throwing curveballs at any age is the factor that is going to lead to an injury,”


and this:

paraphrased,
quote:
"the evidence had been based largely on anecdotes, and that over the years those stories simply began to sound like fact."


and finally this:
quote:
“I’m not saying, everyone throw the curveball,I’m saying, if we’re going to prevent injuries, change the focus. We should be looking at overuse.”


Who? Glenn Fleisig, Chairman of research at American Sports Institute in Birmingham, Alabama.

Contrast those statements to these:
quote:
“It may do more harm than good — quote me on that,”


and
quote:
“There are still some unknown questions,”


and this:

paraphrased, "
quote:
Under game conditions when youth pitchers are fatigued, curves could be dangerous."


and finally this:
quote:
I just operated on one kid this morning,” “At age 12, he tore his ulnar collateral ligament in two. His travel ball coach called 30-something curveballs in a row. He became fatigued. Then he threw one that snapped his elbow.”


Who? James Andrews, founder of the American Sports Medicine Institute.

In other words, "We just proved that the world isn't flat but don't go sailing too far out just yet."

This from the same people that gave us the pitch counts.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
I have never believed that throwing cirveballs at an early age is a bad thing. I worked with my son when he was 10 at beginning to throw one and the next year his knuckle-curve was one of his regular pitches, We told everyone that it was his "second CU- the one that tends to break". He threw that pitch for three years before it got to bothersome on his finger and so he switched to throwing it the regular way. The tremendous amount of fatigue he was placing unduly on his fingertip caused us to change his grip. We went through all that talk with everyone running around spouting off how curveballs are dangerous to arms and all the while me and my son had found out that throwing a lot of curves were dangerous- at least to the skin on the tip of the pointer finger!
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
fenwaysouthfenwaysouth10,000+ posts
My two cents....Throwing a bad curve ball at a young age is a bad thing. The problem is their throwing them incorrectly and someone who knows what they are doing is not there to correct it. I've seen it alot in 10 years of youth travel baseball. The problem that I have with it (curve balls @ 10 years old) is the teaching & coaching. These are 10 year old kids, and the risk vs reward is not there. It is not HS, College or Pros....it is 10 years old. In other words....why risk teaching a 10 year old kid to throw a curve ball when you can teach him a change up with far less risk. Wait until the kid is older, more mature, and he can be taught the right way by a professional instructor.

I really don't care what experts say in either direction. Good or bad it makes no difference to me. Common sense tells me the risk of throwing a mechanically more difficult pitch incorrectly has too much risk for a 10 year old. I've seen way too many young sore arms from throwing a curve ball incorrectly to be convinced otherwise.
Last edited by fenwaysouth
L legendscoach10+ posts
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08...seball/14curve.html?


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07...aseball/26score.html

Here's two somewhat conflicting viewpoints above. I agree with fenwaysouth and have also seen firsthand the effects of damaged and sore arms by trying to throw pitches that young, physically and mentally imature pitchers, have no business throwing. What happened to the mentality of first teaching a player how to grip the ball and throw it properly first! ie: four seam. Practicing throwing enough to be able to control where it goes. Practicing being able to at least make attempts to locate the four seam fastball(which I know is certainly a work in progress for most) Next, how about making the second pitch they learn a change-up. It may be only my humble opinion but I don't recall too many major league pitchers who "live" on their curveball. If a change-up is good enough for major leaguer's to use, why isn't it good enough for a "little leaguer?

quote:
In other words....why risk teaching a 10 year old kid to throw a curve ball when you can teach him a change up with far less risk. Wait until the kid is older, more mature, and he can be taught the right way by a professional instructor.



I don't really care if the world is flat or if it's round. Common sense tells us that the main reason, and maybe the only reason youth players are throwing curveballs, is that it gets hitters out, and as a result, teams "win". It's really the same mentality that would allow a ten year old to throw 150 pitches, that allows a ten year old to throw 17 curveballs in an 1 2/3 inngs.
Last edited by legendscoach
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
My son learned when he was eleven that he could get through innings faster and have less fatigue when he threw his curveball. They are saying that "overuse" is the main cause of LL elbow, not throwing curveballs. So, the question I have is this- If son learned that he could throw curveballs to keep innings short and thus less fatigue on the arm, is this not a good thing? I know it doesn't apply accross the board but isn't it really about not overtaxing the arm?

I find it way more harmful for pitchers to throw fastball after fastball until their arm is hurting than it is to mix it up and throw the occasional breaking ball keeping the pitch counts lower in games.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
I find it way more harmful for pitchers to throw fastball after fastball until their arm is hurting than it is to mix it up and throw the occasional breaking ball keeping the pitch counts lower in games.


GBM,
As I understand your posts, your son is a HS freshman and around age 14/15?
I am truly puzzled why you can be so assured.
Why do you choose to publicize of your teaching him curve balls at ages 10, him throwing them so frequently at ages 11/12 along with him doing max velocity bullpens 2-3 times per week(other threads) when the measurable/medically verified reports of cumulative wear and tear might still be 2-3, or more years into his future?

In my view, your son is not far enough along in the process of competitive baseball for comments of the type you are making to be reliable, to be perfectly blunt. That is just my view.
If our positions were reversed, I would hold my breath and be hoping like heck that those curve balls at age 10, more in game situations at ages 11/12 don't have some cumulative impact later.

Isn't your son truly a neophyte in baseball?
If you want to post about what you did with your son through age 12/13, that is certainly your choice.
Suggesting or implying that experience might have some reliability as a predictor for your son's, or anyone's, future arm health at ages 16 to 18, before they get there: that is entirely different.
You seem very confident in your posts that some of the son's of other parents are in trouble, but that your teaching your son curve balls at age 10, throwing them more at ages 11/12 and other things you have taught him are not producing cumulative micro-trauma in his arm/shoulder.
He is 14.
How do you know?
What if you are wrong?
Last edited by infielddad
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
My son learned when he was eleven that he could get through innings faster and have less fatigue when he threw his curveball. They are saying that "overuse" is the main cause of LL elbow, not throwing curveballs. So, the question I have is this- If son learned that he could throw curveballs to keep innings short and thus less fatigue on the arm, is this not a good thing? I know it doesn't apply accross the board but isn't it really about not overtaxing the arm?

I find it way more harmful for pitchers to throw fastball after fastball until their arm is hurting than it is to mix it up and throw the occasional breaking ball keeping the pitch counts lower in games.


Wow, I mean just wow. I am speechless.

You remind me of another dad who posted things about his son, the frequent use of the CB, how safe it was, how son never had an issue, justifying the frequent use of a breaking pitch when that dominant pitch in baseball is supposed to be the FB. Seems like the pitcher never really developed the velocity needed, and in the end, it was announced the pitcher had shoulder issues during his career in college.

Anyone see the new MLB gameday, it gives a neat pie graph of the percentage of the type of pitches the pitcher is using that day. Now true, on some days the pitcher's FB isn't working so it has to be abandoned, but you will NEVER see a pitcher throwing more breaking balls to get out of the game quickly as to save his arm for the next outing. Roll Eyes And you will NEVER hear a bona fide coach or an instructor suggest that as well. Never ever.

I agree with infielddad, you cannot make statements as to whether your method is the best way, until your son reaches a point in his bb career that you can look back and say, see I did this and it worked. Come back and tell us then....definetly reminds me of that dad saying it was ok to throw CB at a young age....

I think I remember you saying that at young ages the velo isn't high enough to cause harm? If this is true, was throwing CB because young players can't hit them and getting the win? Watching your 11 year old striking out other 11 year olds with a CB, pitch after pitch, I call that being chicken.

How is a pitcher supposed to develop his FB properly when they rely on breaking pitches, what ever happened to youth pitchers pitching FB to contact, yeah get them out in 3 throws, that by far is the least work on the arm and elbow. That isn't over taxing the arm.
Last edited by TPM
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
And studies say they do.
And other studies say the question is still unanswered and unresolved.
Both sides of the discussion/studies are within this thread.
legendscoach posted a summary on each side.
There is one more updated in 2011 by the National Athletic Training Association which finds the studies and analysis of Dr Andrews more persuasive from a biomechanical and medical perspective.
Questioning is not demonizing.
PD PA Dino500+ posts
quote:
They are saying that "overuse" is the main cause of LL elbow, not throwing curveballs.


Actually the medical experts can't make up their mind. Truth is they don't trust the results of their own studies and they don't tell you why that is because the sample size of these studies is way too small. There just haven't been enough of them either to make a dogmatic statement and stake their reputations on it. And there are so many variables to each individual situation that to be honest, I don't think it is reasonable to expect pure science to figure this one out. That's where baseball people are helpful with their anecdotal evidence. Frankly just because somebody's kid make's it into the professional ranks as a pitcher doesn't mean that following what he did will ensure success. And just because a kid blows out his arm at age 14 doesn't mean necessarily that somebody else following the same program can't succeed. Yet, some finite truths about developing pitchers have to exist. Defining those truths is problematic because of the unique variability of the art and science of pitching.

Pitching a baseball is like driving a fast car. The faster you drive the more likely you are to wreck. The more chances you take or the more fatigued you become the more likely you will suffer disaster. A young driver can wreck within his first week of getting turned loose. Another can go years without an incident even though they pushed their limits many times. And that is why there will always be individual stories that seem to contradict science and reason.

Freedom of choice is then a more important concept than towing the party line, whether that be scientific or professional advice. Doing the right thing can't be measured by its outcome. It has to be measured by its purpose. If your purpose is to make it to the major leagues then you should follow one line of thought. If your purpose is to enjoy the moment, then follow the other. If you have a dream for the future but are collecting memories now....then it makes sense to limit those curveballs, develop the fastball and change up and wait for some hair to grow on your kids chest before you start claiming any success.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
quote:
Watching your 11 year old striking out other 11 year olds with a CB, pitch after pitch, I call that being chicken.

Weird.

Studies say that curveballs don't hurt arms, yet still the harping even today. And demonizing parents. I'm with the wow.

GBM's kid sounds like 90% of 10U/12U pitchers, not to mention every LLWS team - they throw FB and curves.


Well, if 10U thru 12U pitchers throw lots of CB's they most likely won't get past HS. That's the choice. Risk vs reward, I just know that most parents want their kids to see the rewards later on.

I suppose you are one of those dads that likes seeing a very young pitcher throw a pitch most others the same age can't hit. The # of strikeouts and the # in the win columns, though meaningless in the grand scheme of things, must give certain type of parents a certain thrill.

Chicken means that there really was no challenge to the effort, I mean how good are you actually if you have to use a pitch that isn't really seen by most kids that age so they can't hit it, usually those players don't get too far.

There is no one that has the answer, the real answer, because every situation and every pitcher is different.

There's pitch type ratios that are recommended for young pitchers and it's not 90% curveballs.

I have never seen a young pitcher throw a 4 or 2 seamer at his comfort velo get seriously hurt, have you?
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
There is one more updated in 2011 by the National Athletic Training Association which finds the studies and analysis of Dr Andrews more persuasive from a biomechanical and medical perspective.


They issued a "position statement", not a study.

I found this on their position statement

quote:

12. Consider delayed throwing of the curveball

As noted in the 2010 ASMI study,5 "the relationship between pitch types (particularly curveballs) and injuries in youth baseball pitchers is less clear [than between number of pitches thrown and injury risk] and more controversial."
The 2002 ASMI study2 found associations between breaking pitches and arm pain, but found, unexpectedly, a relationship between throwing sliders and increased risk of elbow pain and an association between throwing curveballs and increased risk of shoulder pain.
Three biomechanical studies, one published in 20087 and two in 2009 9,11 all found a curveball less stressful to the elbows of youth and high school pitchers than the fastball. The studies thus appear to pour cold water on earlier studies and the conventional wisdom that throwing curve balls at a young age leads to so-called "Little League elbow."
Ongoing debate

Glenn Fleisig, chairman of research at ASMI and co-author of one of the 2009 studies,9 told the New York Times12 in 2009 that he didn't "think throwing curveballs at any age is the factor that is going to lead to an injury."
Carl Nissen, the author of the other 2009 study,11 said in the sameTimes article that he could "comfortably stand up and say the curveball is not [part of the injury] problem."
Interviewed by the Times, however, Dr. James Andrews of the ASMI, who had previously recommended against pitchers throwing curveballs before age 14, warned that the new findings "may do more harm than good" because he feared parents and coaches would interpret the findings improperly as a license to teach kids to throw too many curves or begin when they were too young.12
He also cautioned that the study9 he co-authored with Fleiseg, his longtime ASMI colleague, had limitations because it was conducted under laboratory, not game conditions and he continues to believe that, when young pitchers are tired, throwing curves could still be dangerous, citing the story of a 12-year-old on whom he operated the day of the interview who at age 12 had torn the ulnar collateral ligament in his elbow in two after throwing 30-something curveballs in a row, the last one snapping his elbow.
The 2010 ASMI study5 attempted to study the risk of serious injury from throwing curveballs before age 13 but, while it seems to show a slight increased risk associated with starting curveballs at a young age, the study had far too few participants to determine such an association. Thus, the true risk of serious injury from starting to throw curveballs at an early age is still unknown.
In its 2011 position statement on overuse injuries,4 the National Athletic Trainers' Association, largely comes down on Dr. Andrews's side of the debate. The NATA points out potential flaws in the two biomechanical studies: "It is important to note that the participants in these studies were healthy, with no history of arm injury, and in the case of the [2009] study, perhaps slightly older than the players who are generally the target of the recommendations against throwing breaking balls."
Thus the NATA recommends that parents and coaches restrict the use of breaking ptiches in order to prevent pitching-related arm injuries. If an individual pitcher can throw breaking pitches on a limited basis and remain symptom free, the NATA says, then it may be allowed. If any throwing-related symptoms of overuse injury develop, however, the NATA says, throwing breaking pitches should be immediately terminated and medical attention sought.


Not exactly what you said. Their position sounds reasonable to me.

BTW, Andrews and Fleisig are both with ASMI, the author of the 2009 study.
Last edited by SultanofSwat
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
There is one more updated in 2011 by the National Athletic Training Association which finds the studies and analysis of Dr Andrews more persuasive from a biomechanical and medical perspective.


I heard they had a "position statement". Wasn't aware they had performed a study. Have a link?

BTW, Andrews and Fleisig are both with ASMI, the author of the 2009 study.


Not sure I said they did a study.
I should have been more precise I guess since you know what is in that report.
No, the issue is not clear cut and resolved as you have stated.
The position statement of 2011, as you know, compared and contrasted the Andrews and Fleisig positions and found Andrews to be more consistent with bio-mechanical models and other information. It recommended caution.
Why would you say this issue is resolved when it seems clear you know there is a 2011 position statement showing it is anywhere but clear cut?
Oh yes, I think if anyone reads in this area, they know both Fleisig and Andrews are with ASMI. I think the two NYT articles posted by legendscoach also makes that clear.
You seem to be big with the "demonizing" stuff and accusations.
People are permitted to have opinions and people are permitted to question comments, research and conclusions.
People are permitted to wonder why you would say the issue is clear cut and resolved that curve balls at ages 10-12 don't cause injury or micro-trauma issues when you clearly know about the 2011 "position statement."
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
Sorry, infielddad, I was editing as you were replying.
quote:
You seem to be big with the "demonizing" stuff and accusations.

I wasn't referring to you. I should have been more clear.

quote:

People are permitted to have opinions and people are permitted to question comments, research and conclusions.

Of course. I agree with you.

quote:
Why would you say this issue is resolved when it seems clear you know there is a 2011 position statement showing it is anywhere but clear cut?


Actually, the studies are clear. There is no study (that I know of) that refutes the 2009 ASMI study.

Actually the 2009 study confirms the 2006 ASMI study on college pitchers, the Nissen 2009 study on HS pitchers, and the Dun 2008 study on youth pitchers.

The NATA 2011 position statement allows curveballs.

Everyone thought curveballs were dangerous for years - including me. It will take some time for people to let these studies sink in. Then we can focus on the real causes of pitching injuries - fatigue, poor mechanics, and plain old bad luck. Of course, the debate will be, what is "poor mechanics"? Big Grin

...
Last edited by SultanofSwat
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
From the report:
"Parents and coaches should restrict the use of breaking
pitches in order to prevent pitching-related arm
injuries.20 If an individual pitcher can throw breaking
pitches on a limited basis and remain symptom free,
then it may be allowed; however, if the use of this pitch
precedes the development of any throwing-related
symptoms, it should be immediately terminated and
the athlete should seek medical attention. Evidence
Category: C"

That sounds anything but a clean bill of health for age 10-12 curve balls.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
quote:
I find it way more harmful for pitchers to throw fastball after fastball until their arm is hurting than it is to mix it up and throw the occasional breaking ball keeping the pitch counts lower in games.


GBM,
As I understand your posts, your son is a HS freshman and around age 14/15?
I am truly puzzled why you can be so assured.
Why do you choose to publicize of your teaching him curve balls at ages 10, him throwing them so frequently at ages 11/12 along with him doing max velocity bullpens 2-3 times per week(other threads) when the measurable/medically verified reports of cumulative wear and tear might still be 2-3, or more years into his future?

In my view, your son is not far enough along in the process of competitive baseball for comments of the type you are making to be reliable, to be perfectly blunt. That is just my view.
If our positions were reversed, I would hold my breath and be hoping like heck that those curve balls at age 10, more in game situations at ages 11/12 don't have some cumulative impact later.

Isn't your son truly a neophyte in baseball?
If you want to post about what you did with your son through age 12/13, that is certainly your choice.
Suggesting or implying that experience might have some reliability as a predictor for your son's, or anyone's, future arm health at ages 16 to 18, before they get there: that is entirely different.
You seem very confident in your posts that some of the son's of other parents are in trouble, but that your teaching your son curve balls at age 10, throwing them more at ages 11/12 and other things you have taught him are not producing cumulative micro-trauma in his arm/shoulder.
He is 14.
How do you know?
What if you are wrong?


Let me just start by asking this- Has my son ever experienced any type of elbow or shoulder joint pain? Only once in 5 years. I don't even have enough fingers and toes to count all the times in our local LL and HS that I have seen kids come out of games with sore elbows or shoulders from pitching and they weren't even really throwing any breaking balls, just pretty much fastballs. Talk about cumulative micro-trauma, everyone of those kids pitching over and over all season long and icing because of the pain and injury to their joints- that's micro-trauma! My son takes really good care of his arm- he conditions it well by throwing a lot, does strength training, and knows when to shut the arm down because of fatigue setting in.

I don't claim to be a palm reader, but I am guessing that the kid who has no pain in elbows or shoulder joints will far outlast the other kid who throws continually through pain year after year. Curve-ball or no curveball, the main factor comes right down to "pain factor". Pain is a way of the body telling the mind "hey, shut me down i am injured and need to repair".
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
GBM,

It isn't about all the others with pain.
What is happening with others is no assurance for your son. I wonder what benefit there might be for you to be finding solace in the pain of others.
It is about your son in 3-4 years, since everything you post suggests playing beyond HS is the goal.
Make whatever "guesses" you want about throwing curve balls.
They are guesses into the status of researched and studied medical information as discussed above with Sultan.
If throwing curveballs at age 11 and being on varsity at age 14/15 is the priority, that is a choice.
Baseball is a marathon. Cumulative injury risk occurs over the course of years, on a cumulative basis.
What makes sense to me from experience and all I have read is that the more "risks" that are taken at younger ages, the greater the additive "risk" on a cumulative basis over the course of several developmental years of pitching and throwing.
Get to age 15/16 with high velocity of the type you describe with your son/pitcher, and the risk increases in a significant manner.
The velocity risk of injury at age 16 and up is one area where there appears to be medical concurrence.
If you want to rely on pain as the deciding factor, the question which arises is whether that is risking that the presence of pain means it is too late. Cumulative micro trauma does not have to result in pain before it results in injury, which then causes the pain.
Last edited by infielddad
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
My son learned when he was eleven that he could get through innings faster and have less fatigue when he threw his curveball. They are saying that "overuse" is the main cause of LL elbow, not throwing curveballs. So, the question I have is this- If son learned that he could throw curveballs to keep innings short and thus less fatigue on the arm, is this not a good thing? I know it doesn't apply accross the board but isn't it really about not overtaxing the arm?

I find it way more harmful for pitchers to throw fastball after fastball until their arm is hurting than it is to mix it up and throw the occasional breaking ball keeping the pitch counts lower in games.


Wow, I mean just wow. I am speechless.

You remind me of another dad who posted things about his son, the frequent use of the CB, how safe it was, how son never had an issue, justifying the frequent use of a breaking pitch when that dominant pitch in baseball is supposed to be the FB. Seems like the pitcher never really developed the velocity needed, and in the end, it was announced the pitcher had shoulder issues during his career in college.

Anyone see the new MLB gameday, it gives a neat pie graph of the percentage of the type of pitches the pitcher is using that day. Now true, on some days the pitcher's FB isn't working so it has to be abandoned, but you will NEVER see a pitcher throwing more breaking balls to get out of the game quickly as to save his arm for the next outing. Roll Eyes And you will NEVER hear a bona fide coach or an instructor suggest that as well. Never ever.

I agree with infielddad, you cannot make statements as to whether your method is the best way, until your son reaches a point in his bb career that you can look back and say, see I did this and it worked. Come back and tell us then....definetly reminds me of that dad saying it was ok to throw CB at a young age....

I think I remember you saying that at young ages the velo isn't high enough to cause harm? If this is true, was throwing CB because young players can't hit them and getting the win? Watching your 11 year old striking out other 11 year olds with a CB, pitch after pitch, I call that being chicken.

How is a pitcher supposed to develop his FB properly when they rely on breaking pitches, what ever happened to youth pitchers pitching FB to contact, yeah get them out in 3 throws, that by far is the least work on the arm and elbow. That isn't over taxing the arm.


My kid is no different than hundreds of thousands of other young kids who throw breaking balls in games. The reality of both LL and HS ball in America is that breaking balls are thrown, and thrown quite a lot. I have never heard of any place, any league in America where breaking balls are not thrown.

You make it sound as if I taught my son to throw breaking balls the majority of the time. If you will recall, I said "occasionally". When my son was 11 he would throw his breaking ball about 25% of the time. Usually each batter would see the pitch once on average once per at-bat. Back in those days my son was on a traveling team that tended to go to son all too often and I was worried about pitch counts and so I brought a pitch counter to the games. What we found out was that mixing in the occasional CB was directly translating into lower pitch counts per inning. He went from 15+ an inning on average to around 12 with the addition of the CB. Over the course of 5-7 innings, depending on the time limit this meant 15-20 less pitches overall in a game and thus he was effectively getting an inning for free every game he pitched.

That was back in the day when we played travel ball with 48 foot elevated mounds. That year (when son was 11) he was clocked consistantly in the low to mid 60's, usually around 63 mph. Now I don't know how it is in other places around the states but I am guessing that this is pretty average velocity from an 11 year old playing travel ball. That velocity from 48 feet is not gonna smoke by anyone very often- it's gonna get hit.

This is why kids at that age throw breaking balls. We never ran into any travel team at that age (11-12) that didn't have pitchers not throwing breaking balls. The LL world series is a pretty good "average" of what every town in America produces in their LL organizations and travel leagues. This tells me that pretty much every LL in the country has pitchers who throw breaking balls. Now I am not certain of just how many pitchers, LL age, there are in this country but I am guessing it is at least in the hundreds of thousands. Of those, I am sure that the majority of them throw a breaking ball of some sorts. Now I am also fairly certain that among all the LL kids who also throw breaking balls, that the overwhelming majority of them will never have a major injury to their elbow or shoulder. Even if we were to take just the LL pitchers throwing CB's who later pitched into their senior year of HS and were good, the overwhelming majority of them never have a major injury to their elbow or shoulder causing it to "blow out".

Being effective at 11-12 by throwing CB's is the "norm" in this country. So, are you calling all the pitchers in the LLWS "chicken" also or is it just my son?
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:

Everyone thought curveballs were dangerous for years - including me. It will take some time for people to let these studies sink in. Then we can focus on the real causes of pitching injuries - fatigue, poor mechanics, and plain old bad luck. Of course, the debate will be, what is "poor mechanics"? Big Grin

...


You mentioned somethingt hat caught my eye- what is poor mechanics?

Poor mechancis is always manifest in one of two ways or both in a pitcher. First- they will have a slower than expected velocity, and Second, they may have persistant pain in their arms from pitching.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I guess for that matter, is every professional pitcher a "chicken" who trys to pitch around a good hitter throwing offspeed and junk? Or is it called just being smart?


Let's hope we all appreciate the difference between a MLB pitcher at ages 22 to 35 and how they pitch with baseball as their career... and a 10 to 14 year old competing in a game for fun.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
From the report:
"Parents and coaches should restrict the use of breaking
pitches in order to prevent pitching-related arm
injuries.20 If an individual pitcher can throw breaking
pitches on a limited basis and remain symptom free,
then it may be allowed; however, if the use of this pitch
precedes the development of any throwing-related
symptoms, it should be immediately terminated and
the athlete should seek medical attention. Evidence
Category: C"

That sounds anything but a clean bill of health for age 10-12 curve balls.


What the report should say is that if a pitcher can pitch any kind of a pitch and remain symptom free then he may be allowed to throw.

Let's cut right to the chase here. We all know that pitchers are placing undue stress on their arms throwing any kind of pitch. Strasburg blew out his elbow throwing a CU. Of course it wasn't just that pitch, but never-the-less, it had it's cumalitive damaging effect on the elbow just as all the other pitches he threw. Could you imagine if he blew out his arm throwing a slider? Everyone in the country would be saying "sliders are bad". No one says Change-ups are bad. And no one really says that fastballs are bad. Heck, they are all bad when a pitcher has less than good mechanics.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I guess for that matter, is every professional pitcher a "chicken" who trys to pitch around a good hitter throwing offspeed and junk? Or is it called just being smart?


Let's hope we all appreciate the difference between a MLB pitcher at ages 22 to 35 and how they pitch with baseball as their career... and a 10 to 14 year old competing in a game for fun.


And yet it is funny that the same exact strategy is used whether they are 12 or 24. Pitchers are pitchers regardless of the age difference.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
GBM,

It isn't about all the others with pain.
What is happening with others is no assurance for your son. I wonder what benefit there might be for you to be finding solace in the pain of others.
It is about your son in 3-4 years, since everything you post suggests playing beyond HS is the goal.
Make whatever "guesses" you want about throwing curve balls.
They are guesses into the status of researched and studied medical information as discussed above with Sultan.
If throwing curveballs at age 11 and being on varsity at age 14/15 is the priority, that is a choice.
Baseball is a marathon. Cumulative injury risk occurs over the course of years, on a cumulative basis.
What makes sense to me from experience and all I have read is that the more "risks" that are taken at younger ages, the greater the additive "risk" on a cumulative basis over the course of several developmental years of pitching and throwing.
Get to age 15/16 with high velocity of the type you describe with your son/pitcher, and the risk increases in a significant manner.
The velocity risk of injury at age 16 and up is one area where there appears to be medical concurrence.
If you want to rely on pain as the deciding factor, the question which arises is whether that is risking that the presence of pain means it is too late. Cumulative micro trauma does not have to result in pain before it results in injury, which then causes the pain.


I guess I could just lock him up in a padded room and make a "bubble boy" out of him.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
I will accept the authors view and research as it is stated, not what you think it should say.
What the heck does Strassberg have to do with youth baseball at ages 10 to 15 or 16?
To me,we as parents are entrusted with making decisions to help our sons get as far in baseball as their talent will permit.
That is all this is about.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
I will accept the authors view and research as it is stated, not what you think it should say.
What the heck does Strassberg have to do with youth baseball at ages 10 to 15 or 16?
To me,we as parents are entrusted with making decisions to help our sons get as far in baseball as their talent will permit.
That is all this is about.


I accept the current research showing that valgus stress to the elbow is highest with the fastball. I have always felt that the fastball was the most harmful pitch to throw. Now, there is ample evidence showing that indeed so, the fastball is the most dangerous of all the pitches in a pitcher's arsenal.


I agree that this really is all about getting our kids, and other kids as far as they want to pursue in their baseball dreams. I honestly believe that the work ethic and approach I use with my kid and those I have coached will be the best insurance to helping that happen.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I guess for that matter, is every professional pitcher a "chicken" who trys to pitch around a good hitter throwing offspeed and junk? Or is it called just being smart?


Let's hope we all appreciate the difference between a MLB pitcher at ages 22 to 35 and how they pitch with baseball as their career... and a 10 to 14 year old competing in a game for fun.


ML teams usually don't pay RHP to throw junk, and FWIW, most good college programs don't give them scholarships either. ML pitchers don't pitch around ML hitters, that's what they call chicken, they go after them and use off speed to off set timing. Or use their FB that has such movement the catcher has trouble catching it. Yeah once ina awhile you will come across the older guy who doesn't have the velo, or the lefty that doesn't have the velo either, but for RHP, no way. Oh maybe you might get a cup of coffee or a fee on that level, rarely they stick.
That is essentially the philosophy should be for young pitchers, and 10 and 11 do not need to throw CB 25% of their game and should not be taught to be afraid to get hit. The ball in play is how 10,11 year olds in the field learn to develop skills. That's what they do here in FL, must be why you see a lot of FL kids getting good scholarships along with getting drafted often. I guess that's teh difference, between being somewhere no one has a clue how to teach young kids properly and being somewhere they do. No wonder we don't see many Idaho kids out there, they are all hurt!

I don't really care what you do with your kid or the kids you "coach". Don't use this forum for your "theories", your son is 14, you have NO CLUE what will be going on in a year or two.

I find it strange you are so proud your son has no arm or elbow pain, yet you haven't done your due diligence in other areas of the body he experiences pain, seems you are so worried about others pain and delight in telling of their misfortune.

Again you sound just like the dad who argued for years his son never had any issues throwing CB at a young age.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I guess for that matter, is every professional pitcher a "chicken" who trys to pitch around a good hitter throwing offspeed and junk? Or is it called just being smart?


Let's hope we all appreciate the difference between a MLB pitcher at ages 22 to 35 and how they pitch with baseball as their career... and a 10 to 14 year old competing in a game for fun.


ML teams usually don't pay RHP to throw junk, and FWIW, most good college programs don't give them scholarships either. ML pitchers don't pitch around ML hitters, that's what they call chicken, they go after them and use off speed to off set timing. Or use their FB that has such movement the catcher has trouble catching it. Yeah once ina awhile you will come across the older guy who doesn't have the velo, or the lefty that doesn't have the velo either, but for RHP, no way. Oh maybe you might get a cup of coffee or a fee on that level, rarely they stick.
That is essentially the philosophy should be for young pitchers, and 10 and 11 do not need to throw CB 25% of their game and should not be taught to be afraid to get hit. The ball in play is how 10,11 year olds in the field learn to develop skills. That's what they do here in FL, must be why you see a lot of FL kids getting good scholarships along with getting drafted often. I guess that's teh difference, between being somewhere no one has a clue how to teach young kids properly and being somewhere they do. No wonder we don't see many Idaho kids out there, they are all hurt!

I don't really care what you do with your kid or the kids you "coach". Don't use this forum for your "theories", your son is 14, you have NO CLUE what will be going on in a year or two.

I find it strange you are so proud your son has no arm or elbow pain, yet you haven't done your due diligence in other areas of the body he experiences pain, seems you are so worried about others pain and delight in telling of their misfortune.

Again you sound just like the dad who argued for years his son never had any issues throwing CB at a young age.


Hey TPM, I try to be civil but you are a pain in the but. I don't even know how to reply. You will knock everything I say.

BTW, A kid who plays in our HS conference was on the All American Aflac team last year and is on a scholarship to a top D-1 university right now. Do your homework.
RT Rob T5,000+ posts
In order to properly frame the discussion - shouldn't we specify what type of curve we are talking about?

Are we talking about a hard turning the doorknob curve - or a football curve?

Kids are going to experiment with their pitches and grips - whether we like it or not. I've instituted a simple rule with my team (12U) that I better not see them throw a pitch where they end up with their thumb pointing away from their body and their palm facing up. It's probably not the perfect cue to use - but it's simple enough for them to understand. Trying to explain pronating / supinating sometimes goes over their head. Telling them if I see them turning the door knob that they are going to be spending quality time with me on the bench usually does the trick.

In all honesty, does a 10U actually throw hard enough to get a curve to break? If they can, they could probably just throw the ball past 99 percent of the batters anyway. Anything that resembles a change up would take care of the other 1 percent.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
I don't really care what you do with your kid or the kids you "coach". Don't use this forum for your "theories", your son is 14, you have NO CLUE what will be going on in a year or two.


Theories? Hum... let's see. I promote active throwing pretty much daily to ensure proper conditioning. I promote no pitching through pain and a change in mechanics to those who do have pain. I promote teaching kids correct mechanics before they attempt pitching. I promote proper rest. I promote shorter pitch outings. I promote frequent but shorter bullpens. I promote looking at the real cause behind pitchers pains not just placing blame on things we don't know about. I promote teaching kids the "correct" way to throw breaking balls. I promote shorter inning pitch counts. I promote teaching pitchers to get batters out with the least amount of pitches. I promote teaching kids about the effects of fatigue and pain and how important it is to have a "voice" to their coach when these signs manifest themselves.


Where exactly am I clueless?
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Rob T:
In order to properly frame the discussion - shouldn't we specify what type of curve we are talking about?

Are we talking about a hard turning the doorknob curve - or a football curve?

Kids are going to experiment with their pitches and grips - whether we like it or not. I've instituted a simple rule with my team (12U) that I better not see them throw a pitch where they end up with their thumb pointing away from their body and their palm facing up. It's probably not the perfect cue to use - but it's simple enough for them to understand. Trying to explain pronating / supinating sometimes goes over their head. Telling them if I see them turning the door knob that they are going to be spending quality time with me on the bench usually does the trick.

In all honesty, does a 10U actually throw hard enough to get a curve to break? If they can, they could probably just throw the ball past 99 percent of the batters anyway. Anything that resembles a change up would take care of the other 1 percent.


I will agree that at the age of "10" a breaking ball is pretty much pointless or useless. However, by the age of 11-12 kids have usually put on substancial velocity and they will get balls to break. Batters have also advanced and they just absolutely love average fastballs they can blast out of the park. Pitchers throwing pretty much just fastballs at that age are no different than HS pitchers, they are going to get blasted and either have long grueling innings leading to fatigue and mechanical breakdowns or they are going to get pulled and someone else placed in their spot.

When I first worked with son on teaching him the breaking ball I had him place his finger on it's tip next to his middle finger. I then had him throw it just like a fastball. Over the course of several months it went from tumbling to breaking. He did not know at the time he was throwing a true curveball because he was, in his mind, throwing a fastball except he was altering how he placed the pointer finger. We shot video of him time after time and you could see he was properly pronating before release/at release. Never has he had any pain whatsoever from throwing a CB. That was 4 years ago. Now, he no longer throws the Knuckle curve but throws a harder breaking CB which some say is a slider. If it were true that throwing curves at an early age is what causes LL elbow, my son should be the poster child for that campaign. But, he has no pain- never has had LL elbow and probably threw his CB harder than anyone around. Something kinda tells me that their is a misunderstanding of grand proportinons on what is really causing LL elbow. Having pitch counts is a great idea. But even that is not going to get rid of the true underlying cause of LL elbow. Bad mechanics coupled with overuse is in my honest opinion the real cause. Leagues should do more to promote proper conditioning and mechanics in young players and not be so concerned with if they are throwing CB's or not.

Through this process I have done a lot of watching and reading on the subject and have come to the conclusion that elbow and shoulder breakdowns are due in large part to other factors besides merely throwing a CB. Most of the kids I have watched through the years who end up having arm pain when they are older are the same kids who when younger also had arm pain. Going back and looking at video from years ago manifests itself in the fact that video comparison shows no apparent change in mechanics for players. Kids will almost always throw the same the first years they pitch compared with how they pitch later.

This tells me that teaching good habits and mechanics from the get-go is critical and important. Correcting a mechanical flaw early on is much better than trying to tackle the problem down the road.

The current research now being done is showing that one of the leading factors in determining palyers with problems is in the "timing" sequence of the various pitching motion. Studies are showing a strong correlation with arm problems being made manifest in pitchers whose arm is late or behind too much. Teaching kids the proper sequence and timing of the arm to coincide with the body for those who struggle is paramount i believe.

Forget teaching all the other pitches like CU and CB at the early age. If we can't teach them the proper sequence of operation then it doesn't even matter- they will be at a higher risk of hurting their arm regardless of what pitches they throw later on.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
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