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10U Pitcher Curveballs

GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
Oh I am sorry, I remember you telling us that your son did so well because he thriew from different arm angles, in fact I remember us having quite a discussion about that.

Now he throws only from a low 3/4?

I don't know what to say amymore, you change your stuff everytime you post something, very confusing.

This link best provides how I feel, about how we felt was best for our pitcher and what someone explained to me the other day.

What more can I say, other than it's not hard to understadn , even with the knowledge available, that so many young pitchers are injured.

http://www.webball.com/cms/page7202.cfm


Arguing with you is completely hopless and endless. Hopefully this will be my last reply to you.

My son used to occasionally throw a pitch from a lower arm angle. he has always been a low 3/4 guy.

You misquote me, misunderstand me, and take everyhting I say out of it's proper context. You bash everything I say pretty much. You think I am clueless, an idiot, and shouldn't be around kids.

I have stated my case. You haven't been able to refute it. You have your philosophy, I have mine. Let's agree that we disagree with each other and move on.We both have the interests of safety for pitchers in mind and at the forefront of actions. However, we just disagree on the little **** that you bring up. Let's freakin move on. I showed that there was no correlation to throwing the CB and injuries trend in youth and instead showed that the trend points to overuse of pitching in general. We both agree with that don't we?

Let's move on.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
GBM,
The difference between you and many parent/coaches I know is the difference between knowing what you don't know and knowing everything.
Your posts on this site clearly say you are the latter.
Chronic pain vs joint pain. Another medical diagnosis you are ill equipped to even understand.
One thing for sure, if your son becomes an outstanding HS pitcher and top national recruit in 3-4 years, you can brag all you want.
If he does not, or should have some unfortunate injury, then you should also take complete responsibility.
You have made this all about how much you know, how little others know and how rigid you are in your beliefs. Your son's a novice in baseball at age 14 but you know everything.
Good luck to your son.
.
Last edited by infielddad
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
GBM,
The difference between you and many parent/coaches I know is the difference between knowing what you don't know and knowing everything.
Your posts on this site clearly say you are the latter.
Chronic pain vs joint pain. Another medical diagnosis you are ill equipped to even understand.
One thing for sure, if your son becomes an outstanding HS pitcher and top national recruit in 3-4 years, you can brag all you want.
If he does not, or should have some unfortunate injury, then you should also take complete responsibility.
You have made this all about how much you know, how little others know and how rigid you are in your beliefs. Your son's a novice in baseball at age 14 but you know everything.
Good luck to your son.
.


I don't claim to know everything. I only claim to know that just throwing a curveball in LL is not the underlying "main" reason for arm injuries by pitchers. I am only claiming what other "professionals" already know.

BTW, my son is 15 not 14.
CS coach scotty10+ posts
My 9-10 team has been driving me nuts to teach them to throw a curve. So I figured what the heck. I told them I would teach them a 12/6 curve and explained to them how the ball would "spin" down. Then I told them it was the curve I threw and it was different than how most did it. Haha then I taught them how to throw a circle change. Well of coarse the drop in velocity made the ball drop and convinced them it was curving down. They worked there butts off learning that pitch and unlike when normally teaching a CU to little ones they threw it hard. After they got pretty good at it I told them it wasn't a curve but now they liked it and didn't care.

As for the original post IMO a nationally ranked 10U team has more to do with the kids arm problems than him throwing curves does, but that's just my opinion.
C ctandc500+ posts
FWIW...

Overuse is the enemy for young pitchers and arms. You have to break down and look at what a kid is doing nowadays.

It's not out of the ordinary for say a 12 year old kid to play rec ball, play travel ball, pitch some in both, and in between game go to pitching lessons where they throw bullpens.

A CORRECTLY thrown curve ball, in my opinion, is less stressful on an arm that a max effort or close to max effort fastball.

I pitched. On those days when I was eating innings for whatever reason, like throwing most of both games in a Fall League double header (you didn't argue with the coach and ask to come out..wrong or right) and I got tired, I learned quickly that it took less effort to throw a CB than a FB.

Now what some people may call a CB, is not what I'm referring to. I teach a overhand, 12-6 breaking ball. The emphasis is on using the FINGERS to generate the spin, not cranking the arm or elbow.

This is a silly argument when 10 different people say "Curveball" and mean 10 different things.

I taught my guys a "Curveball" when they were 9 or so. Some call it a "Football pitch". It's the SAME EXACT motion as throwing a spiral with a football...except using a baseball. So when the study comes out saying throwing spirals hurts young arms, I'll feel bad.

There is the "Knuckle Curve" which simply enough is just a FB grip, rolling a finger under and throwing it...just like a FB. I've taught that one too.

I always hear people argue about curve balls. I can't wait for the "SLIDERS KILL ARMS" argument. That's the only pitch I was ever taught that actually hurt to throw. No thanks.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Those that state their sons threw CB's at a young age are usually not refering to a true ML CB. Then they give the argument that their kids were fine.

It took my son a few years to learn how to throw a slider correctly from a major D1 pitching coach. I beleive this pitch, properly taught over a period of time and excellent, has not been a good one for him. That has a lot to do with the risk and reward stuff I refer to, but son is his own man now and controls his future, not us.

I am sorry, I just cringe when I hear about young HS players throwing sliders.
Last edited by TPM
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
I do know that there is quite some debate on what the difference is between a CB, a slider, and a slurve. Many think the slurve is just a weak attempt somehwere between the CB and slider. You can watch MLB tonight and even here them debate on the difference between the pitches. Some call a slider a CB while others call it the CB or even a slurve. Do kids throw a true CB- a true MLB cb? Well, who is the judge and what is the criteria?

As for sliders the same applies- who is the judge and what is the criteria?

TPM, you seem so enamored by the difference between pro baseball players and everyone else as if their is this huge difference. I don't buy into it. A Youths CB is no different than a MLB CB other than one is thrown harder because he is stronger and more conditioned. Both have the same break,the same spin, etc.

MLB scouts even call HS prospects as having a CB or slider when they are in HS. So are MLB scouts wrong?

I still tend to just call them all "breaking balls" because that is what they are. Depending on arm slot, velocity and spin imparted on the ball a persons breaking ball will do different things for different pitchers depending on their own style. In MLB baseball a cb could be anything between a 65 mph and a 85+ velocity. It could be anything between a 8 inch break to a foot of break. It could also be anything inbetween a 12-6 break and a 2-7 break. What really is the criteria though? Everyone has their own style and definition of what they throw. This same logic applies to sliders. It could be anything from a 70 mph to a 90+ velocity. It could also have a large sweeping break or a short tight break. It could also be anything from 12-6 break toa 3-9 break. What is thge criteria?

Last of all, please explain the difference in a youth CB/bb and a MLB cb/bb?
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I am really curious here. I was not aware there was a difference between a MLB CB and someone elses CB. Please explain.


You claim you have learned everything from lots of reading, yet you can't find this?
Has something to do with arm/hand angle rather than snapping and twisting, which some claim still may not be considered safe for an arm where the growth plates are still open.

Tell me that you are not aware of the LL curveball?
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I am really curious here. I was not aware there was a difference between a MLB CB and someone elses CB. Please explain.


You claim you have learned everything from lots of reading, yet you can't find this?
Has something to do with arm/hand angle rather than snapping and twisting, which some claim still may not be considered safe for an arm where the growth plates are still open.

Tell me that you are not aware of the LL curveball?


As you imply it, you would be stating that my son throws a little league CB, of the which he does not throw. This so called "little league CB" is fictional in most minds. I think for a lot it's just another way to freshen up the breaking ball into not sounding scary or be some middle of the road transitional pitch.

As one properly learns to throw a CB- a true CB, there is a transitional stage where the ball doesn't quite have the forward rotation and is more of a spiral spin. But, that transitional pitch is not a CB. A CB has to have forward rotation- it has to break.

If a ball has downward break to it due to forward rotation, regardless, it is a CB. Arm and hand angle is debateable as some MLB players have it more pronounced and some hardly at all.

So, let me ask- Do you think my son throws this so called transitional pitch called the "little league CB"?
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
TPM,

It sounded as if you were implying that my son who started out with a knuckle-curve was throwing some "little league CB" and not a true MLB CB. You said- "Those that state their sons threw CB's at a young age are usually not refering to a true ML CB. Then they give the argument that their kids were fine."

Perhaps when you said "Those" I thought you were referring to my son. You then seemed to state that youth don't throw a cb the same as they do in the pro's.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007



There is nothing unhealthy about a ten year old throwing a properly thrown curve. In fact it places less stress on the arm than a fastball. BUT the key word is properly thrown. Most ten years olds do not throw the curve properly. Then throw in they often don't have coaches who can recognize a properly thrown curve or a tiring pitchers whose mechanics are starting to fail him.

Glen Fleisig of ASMI did extensive research on preteen curveballs and arm injuries. He couldn't come up with a connection if the pitch was thrown properly. His number one connection between among preteen arm injuries and pitching is overuse. Second is poor mechanics regardless of pitch.

The best pitch I taught my son when he was nine was the knuckle curve. It doesn't involve the mechanics of throwing the curve. It's all about grip. It was nasty. I did teach him how to throw a curve at eleven. He probably didn't throw more than five a game. Preteen pitchers should fire fastballs past every hitter they can.

At thirteen and 5'2", 110 my son couldn't effectively throw a curve sixty feet. He practiced the curve from a shorter distance and learned a circle change to use in games.
Last edited by RJM
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
what does it mean for a 10U team to be nationally ranked?
Everything in the world to the parents of the pitchers. The three preteen pitching studs my son played with were out of baseball by fourteen. I don't know hpow many times I heard the dads say their big, strong kids could handle the pitching load. At age twelve two had arm surgery. One spent much of the year with his arm in a sling. The coach hated me and threatened to kick my son off the team because I wouldn't let him pitch more than an inning a day on the weekends.
Last edited by RJM
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
As far as I know, the knuckle curve that youth learn is taught because it basically forces the hand off cnter which naturally teaches one how to throw a true curveball. When youth, or anyone for that matter, learn how to properly throw a knuckle-curve, it is by every definition a "true CB". The so called "youth CB" is a transitional pitch and is not really a CB at all because it lacksthe break or correct rotation to be truly classified as a CB.

Mike Mussina comes to mind as having one of the best knuckle curves in our era. My son during his 12th year had to finally quit throwing the knuckle curve because of the stress he was placing on his fingertip and knuckle. It would blister, get sore, etc. It also got to the point where he was having a hard time placing it due to it's greater and sharper break.

Just not to confuse readers on the post- a knuckle curve is thrown by a lot of youth because of it's ease to get good break and also because of the ease of teaching one to throw the CB correctly. Make no mistake though, the knickle-curve or "spike curve" as some call it, is not a "little league CB" that some people tend to refer it as.
N ncball100+ posts
I think most of you are missing the point here. I hope the priority for young pitchers is about development for the future. Big-leaguers throw 70% fastballs as a rule. Why would it be different for kids? The first pitch you should learn is a fastball with command. I don't care if it's a 2-seam or a 4-seam. Pick one and develop the other after you can master the first. The next pitch to learn would be a change-up with fastball arm speed. Play with the grip and find out what works. Stay with those pitches for a while.

The last pitch to learn is a breaking ball- curve, slurve, slider, cutter, whatever. Find the grip that matches your arm slot. Why is it the last to learn? Because it's easy to pick up and the first two are more effective in the long-run. Finally, it's too easy to put stress on your arm if not thrown properly and hopefully somebody who knows something will teach it to them when they are a little older.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
I think most of you are missing the point here. I hope the priority for young pitchers is about development for the future. Big-leaguers throw 70% fastballs as a rule. Why would it be different for kids? The first pitch you should learn is a fastball with command. I don't care if it's a 2-seam or a 4-seam. Pick one and develop the other after you can master the first. The next pitch to learn would be a change-up with fastball arm speed. Play with the grip and find out what works. Stay with those pitches for a while.

The last pitch to learn is a breaking ball- curve, slurve, slider, cutter, whatever. Find the grip that matches your arm slot. Why is it the last to learn? Because it's easy to pick up and the first two are more effective in the long-run. Finally, it's too easy to put stress on your arm if not thrown properly and hopefully somebody who knows something will teach it to them when they are a little older.


Thanks for that post ncball.
It was a very simple explanation as well, as someone told me, most make it a lot more difficult that it really is.
N ncball100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
I think most of you are missing the point here. I hope the priority for young pitchers is about development for the future. Big-leaguers throw 70% fastballs as a rule. Why would it be different for kids? The first pitch you should learn is a fastball with command. I don't care if it's a 2-seam or a 4-seam. Pick one and develop the other after you can master the first. The next pitch to learn would be a change-up with fastball arm speed. Play with the grip and find out what works. Stay with those pitches for a while.

The last pitch to learn is a breaking ball- curve, slurve, slider, cutter, whatever. Find the grip that matches your arm slot. Why is it the last to learn? Because it's easy to pick up and the first two are more effective in the long-run. Finally, it's too easy to put stress on your arm if not thrown properly and hopefully somebody who knows something will teach it to them when they are a little older.


Thanks for that post ncball.
It was a very simple explanation as well, as someone told me, most make it a lot more difficult that it really is.
Well thank you. I know that you have been there, done that, and get it. There are a few people on here that classify themselves as "experts" (because they post a lot) and have no clue what they are talking about. In reality, they are the dangerous ones because they can literally hurt kids with their lack of knowledge.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
I think most of you are missing the point here. I hope the priority for young pitchers is about development for the future. Big-leaguers throw 70% fastballs as a rule. Why would it be different for kids? The first pitch you should learn is a fastball with command. I don't care if it's a 2-seam or a 4-seam. Pick one and develop the other after you can master the first. The next pitch to learn would be a change-up with fastball arm speed. Play with the grip and find out what works. Stay with those pitches for a while.

The last pitch to learn is a breaking ball- curve, slurve, slider, cutter, whatever. Find the grip that matches your arm slot. Why is it the last to learn? Because it's easy to pick up and the first two are more effective in the long-run. Finally, it's too easy to put stress on your arm if not thrown properly and hopefully somebody who knows something will teach it to them when they are a little older.


Thanks for that post ncball.
It was a very simple explanation as well, as someone told me, most make it a lot more difficult that it really is.
Well thank you. I know that you have been there, done that, and get it. There are a few people on here that classify themselves as "experts" (because they post a lot) and have no clue what they are talking about. In reality, they are the dangerous ones because they can literally hurt kids with their lack of knowledge.


I also agree. Some people on here don't know a lot about these kinds of things.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
Well thank you. I know that you have been there, done that, and get it. There are a few people on here that classify themselves as "experts" (because they post a lot) and have no clue what they are talking about. In reality, they are the dangerous ones because they can literally hurt kids with their lack of knowledge.


ncball,
You have a pm.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
I do know this- the worst place to pick up information, and sadly where most information comes from, is the baseball fields from unsuspecting but still genuinely concerned people who only know because so and so said so.

The second worse place to pick up information is on posts like this one also from people who don't know much but are still genuinely concerned folks.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
RJM,
So what you are stating is that you first taught your son the knuckle curve, which they say has less stress on the arm as it is all in the grip (often referred to as the LL CB)? And just a few at a time?

Also, does anyone know what type of CB ASMI used in their study?
I taught him the knuckle curve at nine. I taught him the 12/6 curve at eleven. The knuckle curve is not the LL curve. The LL curve is an off center grip. The knuckle curve involves gripping the ball with the index finger in the knuckle grip. With the middle finger gripping the ball and the index finger in a knuckle grip it puts a lot of spin on the ball. Mike Mussina threw the best knuckle curve I've seen. The best example was the first six innings of the 2004 ALCS versus the Red Sox.
C ctandc500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I am a little confused how you say the knuckle-curve was a different pitch than the 12-6 curve. Do you mean that you later taught him a different grip? A knuckle curve is a 12-6 curve if it follows the 12-6 break.


Are you honestly asking this?

A true 12 to 6 curveball is thrown with the throwing thumb pointing into the pitcher's ear. Downward spin is put on the ball with the fingers and wrist. No snap or anything with the arm of elbow.

A knuckle curve, as I've taught younger players is held like RJM describes and is thrown just like a fastball. The only difference is the grip.

What is often referred to as a "LL Curve" is where the arm cranks the ball over, almost in a "turning the doorknob" motion.

Don't confuse the resulting spin or pitch trajectory with how the pitch is thrown. Every arm angle is different and the same grip / same pitch will do different things for different pitchers.
N ncball100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I do know this- the worst place to pick up information, and sadly where most information comes from, is the baseball fields from unsuspecting but still genuinely concerned people who only know because so and so said so.

The second worse place to pick up information is on posts like this one also from people who don't know much but are still genuinely concerned folks.
You are exactly who I'm talking about! You have no business acting like you know something when you know very little and your information could hurt kids. Honestly, you need to go away.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ctandc:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I am a little confused how you say the knuckle-curve was a different pitch than the 12-6 curve. Do you mean that you later taught him a different grip? A knuckle curve is a 12-6 curve if it follows the 12-6 break.


Are you honestly asking this?

A true 12 to 6 curveball is thrown with the throwing thumb pointing into the pitcher's ear. Downward spin is put on the ball with the fingers and wrist. No snap or anything with the arm of elbow.

A knuckle curve, as I've taught younger players is held like RJM describes and is thrown just like a fastball. The only difference is the grip.

What is often referred to as a "LL Curve" is where the arm cranks the ball over, almost in a "turning the doorknob" motion.

Don't confuse the resulting spin or pitch trajectory with how the pitch is thrown. Every arm angle is different and the same grip / same pitch will do different things for different pitchers.


A curveball that is a "12-6 curveball" is one that breaks from 12-6 regardless of what grip or how it is thrown. A person such as one who has a high over the top slot can thus throw a knuckle curve with 12-6 break- thats a no brainer! A true Knuckle curve is no different than a regular curve other than the mere placement of the finger. Besides that they are thrown the same. I hope that clarifys.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I do know this- the worst place to pick up information, and sadly where most information comes from, is the baseball fields from unsuspecting but still genuinely concerned people who only know because so and so said so.

The second worse place to pick up information is on posts like this one also from people who don't know much but are still genuinely concerned folks.
You are exactly who I'm talking about! You have no business acting like you know something when you know very little and your information could hurt kids. Honestly, you need to go away.


I knew exactly who you were talking about. You may disagree with me and that is your choice. It is also the choice of anyone who freely reads these posts to agree or disagree. But remeber the same holds true for you also. I am sorry you think I need to go away. What if I said the same about you?

Please specify exactly what information I said could hurt kids and let's discuss those issues, if you are willing. The last thing I want to do is unintentionally hurt some kid with my advice or something i said..
C ctandc500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:A curveball that is a "12-6 curveball" is one that breaks from 12-6 regardless of what grip or how it is thrown. A person such as one who has a high over the top slot can thus throw a knuckle curve with 12-6 break- thats a no brainer! A true Knuckle curve is no different than a regular curve other than the mere placement of the finger. Besides that they are thrown the same. I hope that clarifys.

What?
You DO know that if you talk to 10 different major league pitchers you’ll get 10 different grips and 10 different ways to throw the “Same” pitch…right?
And you DID read where I DESCRIBED how each pitch I mentioned was thrown, as I teach them?
A true 12 to 6 curveball and a knuckle curve are NOT thrown the same way.
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