Wow again. I just don't get the theory to throw CB and get out of the innings sooner. Why not just let players develop their FB, so what if they get hit, at 10,11.
Your theory doesn't hold up there are LOTS of pitchers that go all through their young careers with no pain and then WHAM it hits like a brick. I find it so very interesting that many LH, soft tossing pitchers in milb have arm/elbow issues, most will tell you that they threw lots of curves to make up for lost velocity when young, in HS, in college. So beleiving that only hard throwers have issues is not so.
Stop diverting the conversation to what we all know and agree upon, you don't have to do a lot of "research" to know that good mechanics and monitoring young pitchers time on the mound, taking them out if fatigued etc is common sense. And yes timing is important, do you think that this is something new? It's that other part that falls into those gray areas and throwing CB is one of them. That's ok, we can agree to disagree, but at 14 you have NO CLUE how things will turn out for your son, do you?
You yourself said that at a young age that the velo is not there to warrant concern, so why not throw the FB and change? Why the curve, why did you have your son throw 25% CBs, to make him feel better as a player? To buid up his self esteem?
LOL, I know a few professional people in baseball who would chew you up and then spit you out all in one breath with that theory (pitching CB to get through an inning quicker).
Just one player?
quote:Bad mechanics coupled with overuse is in my honest opinion the real cause.
I wouldn't disagree with that. I suspect there is also possibly a genetic angle to consider as well.
What I mean by that is there is a percentage of kids that are going to injure their arms no matter how good their mechanics are - or the amount of pitches they throw.
I've seen 2 major elbow injuries in the past couple of years. One was a 10yo pitcher with good mechanics that had an avulsion in his elbow that occurred on a throw he was making in the infield. May have been from repetitive use, may have been a one time freak occurrence. In any case, he never threw anything other than fastballs. There was just something structurally in his elbow that could not sustain the same level of activity that other 10 year olds on the same team did without any issue.
Now, I'm pretty sure this player would have injured his arm no matter what pitches he threw - but if he had been throwing curves, I'm sure it would have been held up as another example of how dangerous curves are...
At the same time, given the fact that most kids don't have good mechanics, don't have coaches that know how to teach good mechanics, and probably aren't being shown how to throw a breaking ball without wrecking their growth plates - I can understand why their is the blanket "curves are bad" mantra. If it keeps kids from wrecking their arms by trying to over-torque their release, that's not a bad thing.
If leagues really wanted to promote safety, they could institute a "one inning" per pitcher per game rule for the younger kids. That would be more beneficial than worrying about the type of pitch being thrown.
All that aside, it does make me cringe to see a pitcher dropping his elbow and snapping a curve off as hard as he can at 12yo.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Wow again. I just don't get the theory to throw CB and get out of the innings sooner. Why not just let players develop their FB, so what if they get hit, at 10,11.
Your theory doesn't hold up there are LOTS of pitchers that go all through their young careers with no pain and then WHAM it hits like a brick. I find it so very interesting that many LH, soft tossing pitchers in milb have arm/elbow issues, most will tell you that they threw lots of curves to make up for lost velocity when young, in HS, in college. So beleiving that only hard throwers have issues is not so.
Stop diverting the conversation to what we all know and agree upon, you don't have to do a lot of "research" to know that good mechanics and monitoring young pitchers time on the mound, taking them out if fatigued etc is common sense. And yes timing is important, do you think that this is something new? It's that other part that falls into those gray areas and throwing CB is one of them. That's ok, we can agree to disagree, but at 14 you have NO CLUE how things will turn out for your son, do you?
You yourself said that at a young age that the velo is not there to warrant concern, so why not throw the FB and change? Why the curve, why did you have your son throw 25% CBs, to make him feel better as a player? To buid up his self esteem?
LOL, I know a few professional people in baseball who would chew you up and then spit you out all in one breath with that theory (pitching CB to get through an inning quicker).
Just one player?
So you are going to find a pitcher who doesn't believe a CB is a tool to keep batters off bases/from getting hit? This should be novel. I await. I do find it interesting that closers in professional baseball almost always utilyze both the fastball and breaking ball to make things quick and not give the other team any breathing room.
My son throwing the CB caused his overall pitch count to decrease in games. How is that a bad thing? I have the numbers to prove that throwing the CB decreased pitch counts. In professional baseball it is the same thing- baseball pitchers- the good ones, with low pitch counts, always throw a breaking ball of some sorts.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by Rob T:
In order to properly frame the discussion - shouldn't we specify what type of curve we are talking about?
Are we talking about a hard turning the doorknob curve - or a football curve?
Kids are going to experiment with their pitches and grips - whether we like it or not. I've instituted a simple rule with my team (12U) that I better not see them throw a pitch where they end up with their thumb pointing away from their body and their palm facing up. It's probably not the perfect cue to use - but it's simple enough for them to understand. Trying to explain pronating / supinating sometimes goes over their head. Telling them if I see them turning the door knob that they are going to be spending quality time with me on the bench usually does the trick.
In all honesty, does a 10U actually throw hard enough to get a curve to break? If they can, they could probably just throw the ball past 99 percent of the batters anyway. Anything that resembles a change up would take care of the other 1 percent.
I will agree that at the age of "10" a breaking ball is pretty much pointless or useless. However, by the age of 11-12 kids have usually put on substancial velocity and they will get balls to break. Batters have also advanced and they just absolutely love average fastballs they can blast out of the park. Pitchers throwing pretty much just fastballs at that age are no different than HS pitchers, they are going to get blasted and either have long grueling innings leading to fatigue and mechanical breakdowns or they are going to get pulled and someone else placed in their spot.
When I first worked with son on teaching him the breaking ball I had him place his finger on it's tip next to his middle finger. I then had him throw it just like a fastball. Over the course of several months it went from tumbling to breaking. He did not know at the time he was throwing a true curveball because he was, in his mind, throwing a fastball except he was altering how he placed the pointer finger. We shot video of him time after time and you could see he was properly pronating before release/at release. Never has he had any pain whatsoever from throwing a CB. That was 4 years ago. Now, he no longer throws the Knuckle curve but throws a harder breaking CB which some say is a slider. If it were true that throwing curves at an early age is what causes LL elbow, my son should be the poster child for that campaign. But, he has no pain- never has had LL elbow and probably threw his CB harder than anyone around. Something kinda tells me that their is a misunderstanding of grand proportinons on what is really causing LL elbow. Having pitch counts is a great idea. But even that is not going to get rid of the true underlying cause of LL elbow. Bad mechanics coupled with overuse is in my honest opinion the real cause. Leagues should do more to promote proper conditioning and mechanics in young players and not be so concerned with if they are throwing CB's or not.
Through this process I have done a lot of watching and reading on the subject and have come to the conclusion that elbow and shoulder breakdowns are due in large part to other factors besides merely throwing a CB. Most of the kids I have watched through the years who end up having arm pain when they are older are the same kids who when younger also had arm pain. Going back and looking at video from years ago manifests itself in the fact that video comparison shows no apparent change in mechanics for players. Kids will almost always throw the same the first years they pitch compared with how they pitch later.
This tells me that teaching good habits and mechanics from the get-go is critical and important. Correcting a mechanical flaw early on is much better than trying to tackle the problem down the road.
The current research now being done is showing that one of the leading factors in determining palyers with problems is in the "timing" sequence of the various pitching motion. Studies are showing a strong correlation with arm problems being made manifest in pitchers whose arm is late or behind too much. Teaching kids the proper sequence and timing of the arm to coincide with the body for those who struggle is paramount i believe.
Forget teaching all the other pitches like CU and CB at the early age. If we can't teach them the proper sequence of operation then it doesn't even matter- they will be at a higher risk of hurting their arm regardless of what pitches they throw later on.
Yeah, there have been a LOT of parents whose kids threw CB and they claimed their kids were poster child for none injury, until they got to the significant age where it mattered and couldn't play. I think that is what the discussion is all about, risk and reward.
BTW, slider is not a safe pitch at all. You talk about proper sequence? Why does a HS pitcher have to throw a slider?
I will ask you, why do 11 year olds have to rely on breaking balls? I just don't get the reasoning, whether they are good for the player or not, why would the FB be the secondary pitch?
BTW, no where did I see that GBM said use was "occasionally". I guess this goes along well with pitching a game then going and throwing a ball against the wall. Remember reward vs. risk.
GBM, you need to talk to someone on a higher level, seriously, do yourself a big favor. No one disagrees that breaking balls can cut down on pitch counts but again, you cannot compare 14 year old with ML pitchers, you keep forgetting that.
Interesting, I had to ask a professional (who has youngsters that play ball and he coaches) about 10U-11U throwing CB.
They (young pitchers) throw all FB's and 2 of the first 3 pitches are thrown for strikes, people tend to make it too complex for young pitchers, and want results, the bottom line, what is being taught should be about behavior.
Again, these are young kids, not ML pitchers, learn to work the FB so that it becomes their pitch, regardless of velo, more important to learn how to use the FB rather than get more 10-11 year olds out!
YESSSSSSSSSS!
If this concept is too difficult for those who think throwing CB at 11 is not good and find it too difficult to understand (why), let me know.
They (young pitchers) throw all FB's and 2 of the first 3 pitches are thrown for strikes, people tend to make it too complex for young pitchers, and want results, the bottom line, what is being taught should be about behavior.
Again, these are young kids, not ML pitchers, learn to work the FB so that it becomes their pitch, regardless of velo, more important to learn how to use the FB rather than get more 10-11 year olds out!
YESSSSSSSSSS!
If this concept is too difficult for those who think throwing CB at 11 is not good and find it too difficult to understand (why), let me know.
quote:Yeah, there have been a LOT of parents whose kids threw CB and they claimed their kids were poster child for none injury, until they got to the significant age where it mattered and couldn't play. I think that is what the discussion is all about, risk and reward.
Pretty much every good LL kid age 12-14 throws a breaking ball. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of kids each year throwing breaking balls.
quote:BTW, slider is not a safe pitch at all. You talk about proper sequence? Why does a HS pitcher have to throw a slider?
Neither is the fastball. In fact, they say the fastball is most harmful to the arm over breaking balls. There are tons of kids in HS throwing sliders. I believe a lot of it comes down to how hard pitchers throw their breaking ball.
quote:I will ask you, why do 11 year olds have to rely on breaking balls? I just don't get the reasoning, whether they are good for the player or not, why would the FB be the secondary pitch?
Who said the fastball was the secondary pitch? The fastball is always the primary pitch and all other pitches are built around the fastball. We both know that. Go ask everyone at the LLWS- they are all throwing breaking balls- everyone of them. That is how it is in all LL play. Breaking balls is part of the game. Travel ball at the 11-12U and up age groups all throw breaking balls, some more than others.
quote:BTW, no where did I see that GBM said use was "occasionally". I guess this goes along well with pitching a game then going and throwing a ball against the wall. Remember reward vs. risk.
Go back and read my posts. I have said occasionally several times. You think my son throws nothing but breaking balls but you are wrong. My son is typical of the pitchers his age accross the board throughout the entire contry.
quote:GBM, you need to talk to someone on a higher level, seriously, do yourself a big favor. No one disagrees that breaking balls can cut down on pitch counts but again, you cannot compare 14 year old with ML pitchers, you keep forgetting that.
And yet, youth pitchers throw the same pitches, throw from the same distance, have the same rules, etc. Yes, it is true that ML pitchers are older and throw harder but in comparison, they are really the same. The same bad mechanics at the youth age lead to the same pain and problems at the ML level. Youth players having UCL surgery are no different than players at the ML level having UCL surgeries. It comes down to overuse and bad mechancis for the most part. Were just comparing baby apples to grown apples. The same logic applys to both groups.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
And yet, youth pitchers throw the same pitches, throw from the same distance, have the same rules, etc. Yes, it is true that ML pitchers are older and throw harder but in comparison, they are really the same. The same bad mechanics at the youth age lead to the same pain and problems at the ML level. Youth players having UCL surgery are no different than players at the ML level having UCL surgeries. It comes down to overuse and bad mechancis for the most part. Were just comparing baby apples to grown apples. The same logic applys to both groups.
The same logic does not apply to both groups, only because you think it should, not everyone manages young pitchers the way you do.
BTW, this was about 10U throwing CB, but it somehow turned into GBM's pitcher and what he does, which happens often.
I am gonna take someone's advice they gave me and I didn't listen when I should have, don't argue with an idiot.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
And yet, youth pitchers throw the same pitches, throw from the same distance, have the same rules, etc. Yes, it is true that ML pitchers are older and throw harder but in comparison, they are really the same. The same bad mechanics at the youth age lead to the same pain and problems at the ML level. Youth players having UCL surgery are no different than players at the ML level having UCL surgeries. It comes down to overuse and bad mechancis for the most part. Were just comparing baby apples to grown apples. The same logic applys to both groups.
The same logic does not apply to both groups, only because you think it should, not everyone manages young pitchers the way you do.
BTW, this was about 10U throwing CB, but it somehow turned into GBM's pitcher and what he does, which happens often.
I am gonna take someone's advice they gave me and I didn't listen when I should have, don't argue with an idiot.
That's right some don't manage pitchers the way I do. I actually won't let my pitchers throw in any kind of arm pain and if they do have arm issues I actually video them to see where possible problems might be.
quote:Yes, it is true that ML pitchers are older and throw harder but in comparison, they are really the same. The same bad mechanics at the youth age lead to the same pain and problems at the ML level. Youth players having UCL surgery are no different than players at the ML level having UCL surgeries. It comes down to overuse and bad mechancis for the most part. Were just comparing baby apples to grown apples. The same logic applys to both groups.
Medicine as taught by GBM.
----------------------------------------------------
"Repetitive stress on the musculoskeletal system without
adequate and appropriate preparation and rest can result
in chronic or overuse injuries in athletes of any age. In
children and adolescents, this fact is complicated by the
growth process, which can result in a unique set of injuries
among pediatric athletes. Growth-related injuries most
frequently affect the epiphyseal plates, where long bone
growth occurs, and the apophyses, which serve as the bony
attachments for musculotendinous units.6 Compression is
usually responsible for epiphyseal injuries, whereas repeated
tension or traction forces injure the apophyses.39
Differences in growth rates between the epiphyses and
apophyses and between bone and muscle tissue are factors
in apophyseal injury risk. These different growth rates may
lead to relative myotendinous inflexibility and increased
traction forces on the apophyses, contributing to traction
apophyseal injuries.40,41 In throwers, repetitive microtrauma
can lead to further bony insult, resulting in capitellar
osteochondritis dissecans, a localized lesion of uncertain
cause that involves the separation of articular cartilage and
subchondral bone.42,43 Although most cases of osteochondritis
dissecans resolve without consequence, lesions that
do not heal after surgical intervention or a period of
reduced repetitive impact loading may be responsible for
future sequelae, including degenerative changes.44
Growth-center injuries may have long-term physical
consequences and affect normal growth and development.
16,40"
Medicine and the unique reasons repetitive stress in pediatric situations can be different, unique and have the potential for long terms consequence, as discussed in the April 2011 position statement of the National Athletic Trainer's Association.
Take your pick.
---------------------------------------------------
The more GBM is posting, the more I think prouddad24 was close to correct. It appears Dr Andrews still has much to learn.
BTW, GBM, you still don't get it.
The prospective study referenced in the NATA position paper demonstrated youth cb's resulted in a significant increase in the number of pitchers reporting pain... the shoulder.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
The prospective study referenced in the NATA position paper demonstrated youth cb's resulted in a significant increase in the number of pitchers reporting pain... the shoulder.
You have a link to this?
I am not really sure what the argument is, if you speak to most youth coaches who really know what they are doing (at the age that is mentioned at the top) they should be throwing FB only, and perhaps working on the CU.
Now if you are talking the LL CB, you are NOT talking true CB, so get off the horse and stop bragging. The use of the LL CB retards the development of the FB, maybe not in the case of your son, but that is a reflection that young players see results and that's what they want, not having to tough it out by getting hit. Then that player gets to the next level and is hit and has no clue how to handle it. So I think in teaching kids at an early age that this is a game of ups and downs, you are doing what is best for them, emotionally.
Putting aside whether it's harmful or not, you are talking 10 year olds, I guess that means keep it simple, don't worry about results so much as learning the game.
Seems that there is always a change in stories based upon current reading. GBM, has told us how he tells his son to get on mound and throw as hard as he can to develop velo, but that's ok he can't hurt himself because his velo is not that fast to cause damage, I remember that discussion distinctly. Now it's ok to throw CB because throwing FB causes injury, yeah I suppose if you are throwing 80 at 10, it's not good. But if a player at 10 is throwing average velocity, throwing FB, 4 seam, 2 seam is not going to hurt, according to what has been stated in the past (my son doesn't throw hard enough to get hurt).
The bottom line, for me as a parnet, is that it's all about following a plan that works, and most coaches who truely understand player development don't compare youth pitchers to 25,26 year olds. I know that may be very hard to comprehend for some that wish their 10 year olds were 18 already and have a hard time distinquishing the difference even between that group.
FWIW, as I have said to you in the past, son didn't throw breaking ball until 15, good solid mechanics, true slider (don't count the safer slurve) until mid college, threw pretty hard, not overused and didn't play year round and only ONE time until the last 3 years did he ever have any issue. Oh and he was 15 when he first got into the gym. I can't assume that any one particular thing above helped, but a combination and perhaps genetics.
I would imagine it's pretty scary out there, pretty scary to think that a philosophy for 11 year olds would be to throw a lot of breaking balls to get through the game quicker, as to not over use the arm. I think we got a much smarter bunch of folks out there, so I am not worried someone is going to actually think this is how mot coaches think.
No one takes away that GBM doesn't let his players play when in pain, I mean how many times do we have to hear, that is the correct and proper way to treat all players.
Now if you are talking the LL CB, you are NOT talking true CB, so get off the horse and stop bragging. The use of the LL CB retards the development of the FB, maybe not in the case of your son, but that is a reflection that young players see results and that's what they want, not having to tough it out by getting hit. Then that player gets to the next level and is hit and has no clue how to handle it. So I think in teaching kids at an early age that this is a game of ups and downs, you are doing what is best for them, emotionally.
Putting aside whether it's harmful or not, you are talking 10 year olds, I guess that means keep it simple, don't worry about results so much as learning the game.
Seems that there is always a change in stories based upon current reading. GBM, has told us how he tells his son to get on mound and throw as hard as he can to develop velo, but that's ok he can't hurt himself because his velo is not that fast to cause damage, I remember that discussion distinctly. Now it's ok to throw CB because throwing FB causes injury, yeah I suppose if you are throwing 80 at 10, it's not good. But if a player at 10 is throwing average velocity, throwing FB, 4 seam, 2 seam is not going to hurt, according to what has been stated in the past (my son doesn't throw hard enough to get hurt).
The bottom line, for me as a parnet, is that it's all about following a plan that works, and most coaches who truely understand player development don't compare youth pitchers to 25,26 year olds. I know that may be very hard to comprehend for some that wish their 10 year olds were 18 already and have a hard time distinquishing the difference even between that group.
FWIW, as I have said to you in the past, son didn't throw breaking ball until 15, good solid mechanics, true slider (don't count the safer slurve) until mid college, threw pretty hard, not overused and didn't play year round and only ONE time until the last 3 years did he ever have any issue. Oh and he was 15 when he first got into the gym. I can't assume that any one particular thing above helped, but a combination and perhaps genetics.
I would imagine it's pretty scary out there, pretty scary to think that a philosophy for 11 year olds would be to throw a lot of breaking balls to get through the game quicker, as to not over use the arm. I think we got a much smarter bunch of folks out there, so I am not worried someone is going to actually think this is how mot coaches think.
No one takes away that GBM doesn't let his players play when in pain, I mean how many times do we have to hear, that is the correct and proper way to treat all players.
Here are some facts...
Most 10-12 yo pitchers throw curveballs. LL and every other major youth organization allows curveballs and has not banned them for safety purposes.
As outlined previously, ASMI (and others) have studies that say curveballs are less harmful than fastballs. There are no studies that refute the 2009 ASMI study.
Many people continue to falsely believe otherwise. It will take some time before the hysteria settles down.
Most 10-12 yo pitchers throw curveballs. LL and every other major youth organization allows curveballs and has not banned them for safety purposes.
As outlined previously, ASMI (and others) have studies that say curveballs are less harmful than fastballs. There are no studies that refute the 2009 ASMI study.
Many people continue to falsely believe otherwise. It will take some time before the hysteria settles down.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Here are some facts...
Most 10-12 yo pitchers throw curveballs. LL and every other major youth organization allows curveballs and has not banned them for safety purposes.
Most adults drink alcohol, does that mean it's safe for everyone? Some rely on it to make them feel good, get dependant on it. That's usually what happens when youngsters use the CB, they don't debvelop their other pitches. Oh maybe dad told him it's really better because you throw less pitches, but really it's just great cause you win, it's all about the win, right. Then dad gets to come on a message board and tell everyone how much success his LL kid had. No wonder!
The original post was about a 10U throwing 17 CB in less than 2 innings, that makes lots of sense, right?
Fenway asked a question why don't you guys answer, why not teach the change up instead?
Isn't the change up supposed to be the better pitch anyway? Or is it because it's hard to really get it to work and the CB is so much easier and non hittable, why not?
A pitching coach told me once he's amazed that many HS pitchers can't FB properly. I find that interesting, these kids have been playing for 8-10 years and can't throw FB properly? Don't you find that amazing? Then dad is all kinds of upset cause the coach isn't interested, or they don't get drafted. But wait a minute, he had GREAT HS stats, he struck out a lot of guys and had a great ERA, what happened?
Why not hit to contact? Why not let the guys behind you learn how to play, they can't if the ball isn't in play, can they? What's it supposed to be about at 10, 11 anyway?
I tk the whole point I am trying make in this post is that there is this whole negative baggadge that goes along with little leaguers and curveballs. So many are quick to jump on board this boat of negativity about youth throwing curveballs. The actual research is now showing what the real causes of youth baseball pitching injuries is due to and it has basically nothing to do with throwing curves.
Baseball at any level is about learning how to win and be better perhaps than the opponent. Not very many play the game and grow up in the game with the attitude of "just playing" without any emphasis on competeing and winning. There is some misunderstanding obviously that a CB at a young age doesn't get "put in play". Even at a young age, the CB along with the CU and fastball are all thrown to hitters basically in the strike zone or appearing to come into the strike zone to induce a swing. There is nothing greater than a batter weakly hitting a CB to the SS and have an easy play at first- that is what teaching pitching is all about- causing batters to swing off balanced or uncomfortably. It absolutely is not about placing meatballs down the pipe to get crushed.
One of th reasons my son has been so successful with his CU and CB and fastball is that they all induce a myriad of groundballs and thus- shorter pitch counts in innings. This is the very definition of pitching to contact. I want batters to swing on every pitch and I teach my son that philosophy. The more a batter swings, the greater the chances improve for a lower pitch count in an inning.
On my fall team we would intentionally have a sign to let the third baseman know when son would throw his CU or CB. The third baseman would slowly start coming forward in anticipation of the weakly hit ground ball to third. We did this over and over again with great success. We were intentionally trying to induce weakly hit ground balls to third and it worked over and over and over again.
We could all argue all the day and night long on the importance of the fastball and it's primary purpose. I am not arguing that point at all. My son spends the majority of his bullpens working on his fastball and locating it- that is paramount! But does this mean he shouldn't learn other pitches and how to control them? No pitcher, by the time they get to HS, is going to survive by the fastball alone unless of course they can throw mid to upper 80's. By HS age most good pitchers already have a CB in their arsenal and they will need it to survive the rigors of HS sluggers. Even if they rarely throw it, they need to let hitters know they have it and keep them worried about it.
With bat technology where it is at, we all know how easy it is for HS average kids to plunk them over the fence at will. knowing how and when to throw both the CB and CU by the time they reach HS will do tons at saving their arms from long outings and sore arms.
As for getting drafted or recruited out of HS, a pitcher pretty much better have a good idea on how to throw the CB. Many times a pitcher is chosen because of the quality of his breaking ball. I know that fastball velocity is king, I won't argue that, but no pitcher survives after HS on the fastball alone. Properly teaching pre-hs players how to throw and teaching them the fundamentals of strength conditioning and then teaching them how to throw a CB is advantageuos for their development. This doesn't necessarily mean teaching 10-12 year olds how to throw them, it means teaching youth "when they are ready". I have never taught any youth how to throw a CB until they have command of the fastball and can throw consistantly without any joint pain. Every pitcher is going to have some slight "normal" stress from throwing. Every arm gets sore in the "usual" spots, especially in the early part of the season. Teaching kids the signs of what is normal and what is not is also paramount.
I do bodywork for a living and push a sanding block many hours a day. My arms get sore in the usual spots. When they begin to get sore you have to rest. Knowing how much, how hard, and when to shut it down is the key to protecting arms at all levels. Some on this board think I have my kid throw his arm off making him throw at "maximum velocity" all the time. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Some need to pay attention more I guess.
Finally (sorry for the long post BTW), we do not teach our kids to be losers. We all know that they will all lose continually and we can learn from that but success in baseball at any age is about winning. We keep score because somebody "wins". We all want our kids to reach their highest dreams and that doesn't happen to losers. We must strive to win- strive to work harder than the others and perhaps be a little better than the next and in the end be proud of how winning leads to success. I am sure TPM and others are proud of their kids achievements because they won at the right levels.
Baseball at any level is about learning how to win and be better perhaps than the opponent. Not very many play the game and grow up in the game with the attitude of "just playing" without any emphasis on competeing and winning. There is some misunderstanding obviously that a CB at a young age doesn't get "put in play". Even at a young age, the CB along with the CU and fastball are all thrown to hitters basically in the strike zone or appearing to come into the strike zone to induce a swing. There is nothing greater than a batter weakly hitting a CB to the SS and have an easy play at first- that is what teaching pitching is all about- causing batters to swing off balanced or uncomfortably. It absolutely is not about placing meatballs down the pipe to get crushed.
One of th reasons my son has been so successful with his CU and CB and fastball is that they all induce a myriad of groundballs and thus- shorter pitch counts in innings. This is the very definition of pitching to contact. I want batters to swing on every pitch and I teach my son that philosophy. The more a batter swings, the greater the chances improve for a lower pitch count in an inning.
On my fall team we would intentionally have a sign to let the third baseman know when son would throw his CU or CB. The third baseman would slowly start coming forward in anticipation of the weakly hit ground ball to third. We did this over and over again with great success. We were intentionally trying to induce weakly hit ground balls to third and it worked over and over and over again.
We could all argue all the day and night long on the importance of the fastball and it's primary purpose. I am not arguing that point at all. My son spends the majority of his bullpens working on his fastball and locating it- that is paramount! But does this mean he shouldn't learn other pitches and how to control them? No pitcher, by the time they get to HS, is going to survive by the fastball alone unless of course they can throw mid to upper 80's. By HS age most good pitchers already have a CB in their arsenal and they will need it to survive the rigors of HS sluggers. Even if they rarely throw it, they need to let hitters know they have it and keep them worried about it.
With bat technology where it is at, we all know how easy it is for HS average kids to plunk them over the fence at will. knowing how and when to throw both the CB and CU by the time they reach HS will do tons at saving their arms from long outings and sore arms.
As for getting drafted or recruited out of HS, a pitcher pretty much better have a good idea on how to throw the CB. Many times a pitcher is chosen because of the quality of his breaking ball. I know that fastball velocity is king, I won't argue that, but no pitcher survives after HS on the fastball alone. Properly teaching pre-hs players how to throw and teaching them the fundamentals of strength conditioning and then teaching them how to throw a CB is advantageuos for their development. This doesn't necessarily mean teaching 10-12 year olds how to throw them, it means teaching youth "when they are ready". I have never taught any youth how to throw a CB until they have command of the fastball and can throw consistantly without any joint pain. Every pitcher is going to have some slight "normal" stress from throwing. Every arm gets sore in the "usual" spots, especially in the early part of the season. Teaching kids the signs of what is normal and what is not is also paramount.
I do bodywork for a living and push a sanding block many hours a day. My arms get sore in the usual spots. When they begin to get sore you have to rest. Knowing how much, how hard, and when to shut it down is the key to protecting arms at all levels. Some on this board think I have my kid throw his arm off making him throw at "maximum velocity" all the time. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Some need to pay attention more I guess.
Finally (sorry for the long post BTW), we do not teach our kids to be losers. We all know that they will all lose continually and we can learn from that but success in baseball at any age is about winning. We keep score because somebody "wins". We all want our kids to reach their highest dreams and that doesn't happen to losers. We must strive to win- strive to work harder than the others and perhaps be a little better than the next and in the end be proud of how winning leads to success. I am sure TPM and others are proud of their kids achievements because they won at the right levels.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Hey TPM, I try to be civil but you are a pain in the but. .......
You will knock everything I say.
Amen brother!
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Here are some facts...
Most 10-12 yo pitchers throw curveballs. LL and every other major youth organization allows curveballs and has not banned them for safety purposes.
As outlined previously, ASMI (and others) have studies that say curveballs are less harmful than fastballs. There are no studies that refute the 2009 ASMI study.
Many people continue to falsely believe otherwise. It will take some time before the hysteria settles down.
"Some experts are now moving away from the long-held
and perhaps largely anecdotal belief that throwing
breaking pitches is related to arm injuries in young baseball
players. The only prospective study20 we were able to find
appears to support this belief: pitchers throwing sliders had
an 86% increased risk of elbow pain, and pitchers throwing
curveballs had a 52% increased risk of shoulder pain.
However, biomechanical studies comparing torque and
moments generated by different types of pitches in 11- to
14-year-olds85 and 14- to 18-year-olds86 showed that the
fastball imposed more demand than the curveball. Based
on the results of these biomechanics studies, some
researchers have postulated that throwing breaking pitches
is not necessarily risky for young athletes. Yet it is
important to recognize that the participants in these studies
were healthy, with no history of arm injury, and, in the case
of the Nissen et al86 study, perhaps slightly older than the
players who are generally the target"
quote:Finally (sorry for the long post BTW), we do not teach our kids to be losers. We all know that they will all lose continually and we can learn from that but success in baseball at any age is about winning. We keep score because somebody "wins". We all want our kids to reach their highest dreams and that doesn't happen to losers. We must strive to win- strive to work harder than the others and perhaps be a little better than the next and in the end be proud of how winning leads to success. I am sure TPM and others are proud of their kids achievements because they won at the right levels.
Success in baseball, at any age, is about winning???
Sorry, but to me, that sounds to me like an adult rationalizing his comments through this entire thread. We just view this in very, very different ways for youth baseball.
It sure is about winning when they get to and play and compete in HS, college and Milb. But even then, each year they play, there is only one winning team in the end. I would propose to you there are many winners even though there is only one team that wins.
So, if it is only about winning, do you support this:
In 2004, a team from Oregon won the DIII CWS. Beat our son's team in the West Region Final. Their #1 pitcher threw 37/38 innings in 12 days.
A few days later, he was drafted in the 6th/7th round.
One month later, he needed arm surgery. He never pitched again.
They won. Is that what it was/is all about?
How can they do a study with healthy participants to begin with, what results do they expect to see.
Wouldn't it make sense that data compiled from ASMI would come from patients with issues, a questionaire of when they began pitching, what tye of pitches they used etc?
IMO, the above study really means nothing.
I may be missing something, but I always thought that CB and CU were used to produce swing and miss opportunities and used to off set timing of the fastball. They must do things differently in different parts of the country.
FWIW, the first pitch consideration (as to scholarship) of a college coach for a RHP is the players FB and velo. Actually, my son didn't really have a good CB entering college, must be something wrong as he got a great scholarship. Because of that, his slurve ball (neither here nor there CB and slider) his weakest pitch was developed into a slider. He doesn't throw a CB at all, and has a specific out pitch. I think that's basically how it's done, in HS, college (good programs) and in pro ball.
Whoever told you that pitchers are chosen primarily on their bb. Go look at the chart over on MLB gameday, interesting. My son doesn't eve throw a CB, is he missing something?
I have no problem with HS players throwing CB's, again for the last time the post was about 10U throwing CB's. Somehow this discussion turned into GBM's kid throwing CB at 11 and how successful he has been. GBM, to be honest, most of our kids here were successful, yours is no different than most, your son is 14, let's see how that success turns into college scholarship, or beyond. I don't really care, nor do most here, how successful your 14 year old is/was in LL. It means NOTHING.
I don't remember telling my son how important winning was at an early age, we impressed the importance of learning how to be part of a team, listening and respecting the coach, and the game and most of all, win or lose HAVE FUN. Unfortunetly that concept seems to have gotten lost, probably why most kids turn away from baseball, they love the winning but don't learn from the losses.
Wouldn't it make sense that data compiled from ASMI would come from patients with issues, a questionaire of when they began pitching, what tye of pitches they used etc?
IMO, the above study really means nothing.
I may be missing something, but I always thought that CB and CU were used to produce swing and miss opportunities and used to off set timing of the fastball. They must do things differently in different parts of the country.
FWIW, the first pitch consideration (as to scholarship) of a college coach for a RHP is the players FB and velo. Actually, my son didn't really have a good CB entering college, must be something wrong as he got a great scholarship. Because of that, his slurve ball (neither here nor there CB and slider) his weakest pitch was developed into a slider. He doesn't throw a CB at all, and has a specific out pitch. I think that's basically how it's done, in HS, college (good programs) and in pro ball.
Whoever told you that pitchers are chosen primarily on their bb. Go look at the chart over on MLB gameday, interesting. My son doesn't eve throw a CB, is he missing something?
I have no problem with HS players throwing CB's, again for the last time the post was about 10U throwing CB's. Somehow this discussion turned into GBM's kid throwing CB at 11 and how successful he has been. GBM, to be honest, most of our kids here were successful, yours is no different than most, your son is 14, let's see how that success turns into college scholarship, or beyond. I don't really care, nor do most here, how successful your 14 year old is/was in LL. It means NOTHING.
I don't remember telling my son how important winning was at an early age, we impressed the importance of learning how to be part of a team, listening and respecting the coach, and the game and most of all, win or lose HAVE FUN. Unfortunetly that concept seems to have gotten lost, probably why most kids turn away from baseball, they love the winning but don't learn from the losses.
I forgot, I really couldn't have cared less if my son's team won or lost at 10-14. Yeah it's fun, but that didn't make him who he is and as you will see, pretty much didn't determine where he was headed until much later on.
I am going to say that losing probably makes most players winners.
I am going to say that losing probably makes most players winners.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:quote:Finally (sorry for the long post BTW), we do not teach our kids to be losers. We all know that they will all lose continually and we can learn from that but success in baseball at any age is about winning. We keep score because somebody "wins". We all want our kids to reach their highest dreams and that doesn't happen to losers. We must strive to win- strive to work harder than the others and perhaps be a little better than the next and in the end be proud of how winning leads to success. I am sure TPM and others are proud of their kids achievements because they won at the right levels.
Success in baseball, at any age, is about winning???
Sorry, but to me, that sounds to me like an adult rationalizing his comments through this entire thread. We just view this in very, very different ways for youth baseball.
It sure is about winning when they get to and play and compete in HS, college and Milb. But even then, each year they play, there is only one winning team in the end. I would propose to you there are many winners even though there is only one team that wins.
So, if it is only about winning, do you support this:
In 2004, a team from Oregon won the DIII CWS. Beat our son's team in the West Region Final. Their #1 pitcher threw 37/38 innings in 12 days.
A few days later, he was drafted in the 6th/7th round.
One month later, he needed arm surgery. He never pitched again.
They won. Is that what it was/is all about?
Look, you may have misunderstood my point. Any sport, no matter what it is, is about being successful. A bad team against a good team might have a gola of making it close. To them- that is winning- that is success. For a pitcher it may be getting their 2,3 and 4 batters out in a row- that is success and winning. I don't care what age it is but as coaches and parents we teach our kids to compete and try to have success. As they get older it becomes more apparent to have this personal success. This may mean going to a showcase and hitting really well or hitting 90mph on the gun.
You will find no organization of LL in this country that isn't structered around competition and winning. That is one of the main reasons why we play and is every reason why we keep score. I am not saying it is all for the win, we all know that someone has to lose and it very well could be us reather than someone else. But, as you get older and older and are looking at getting recruited or drafted, your own personal wins must stand out or you will not get noticed for your ability. As players go up through the MiLB system it is all about personal battles and wins against the opponent because if you lose, your career is done.
Our team gets hitting instructions from current professional MiLB sluggers. They constantly tell us that the only thing keeping them from breaking into the majors is that there are some who are more consistant over themselves. In order for them to extend their professional baseball careers they must show that they can win more than their peers. It's not selfish, it is just part of the game at that level- it's about personal success through winning more than your opponent.
GBM,
Again, you are comparing professional players to 13-14 year olds.
Again, you are comparing professional players to 13-14 year olds.
Experience in baseball is a wonderful thing.
Last Monday night, I listened to a 2 hour Q&A with Coach Marquess at Stanford.
One point he made was he gets kids drafted who never get an AB at Stanford and have less than 10 innings pitched in 3 years.
They didn't win and didn't contribute to winning but moved on to Milb.
In contrast he had a walk on who ended up pitching for him in Omaha in 2008. Brilliant student. 3.99 in some math and science area no one on the team could comprehend. Draft day came and went. When he didn't get picked, he sat with his coach..and sobbed.
Tell me about winning again.
Thanks for the education on Milb.
Our son has been there and done that.
Not sure I agree with your views on Milb and sure don't see the relevance of Milb to youth baseball and your emphasis on winning.
Many players at higher levels will tell you they get motivated by the bitterness of a loss or failure.
Last Monday night, I listened to a 2 hour Q&A with Coach Marquess at Stanford.
One point he made was he gets kids drafted who never get an AB at Stanford and have less than 10 innings pitched in 3 years.
They didn't win and didn't contribute to winning but moved on to Milb.
In contrast he had a walk on who ended up pitching for him in Omaha in 2008. Brilliant student. 3.99 in some math and science area no one on the team could comprehend. Draft day came and went. When he didn't get picked, he sat with his coach..and sobbed.
Tell me about winning again.
Thanks for the education on Milb.
Our son has been there and done that.
Not sure I agree with your views on Milb and sure don't see the relevance of Milb to youth baseball and your emphasis on winning.
Many players at higher levels will tell you they get motivated by the bitterness of a loss or failure.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
How can they do a study with healthy participants to begin with, what results do they expect to see.
Wouldn't it make sense that data compiled from ASMI would come from patients with issues, a questionaire of when they began pitching, what tye of pitches they used etc?
IMO, the above study really means nothing.
I may be missing something, but I always thought that CB and CU were used to produce swing and miss opportunities and used to off set timing of the fastball. They must do things differently in different parts of the country.
FWIW, the first pitch consideration (as to scholarship) of a college coach for a RHP is the players FB and velo. Actually, my son didn't really have a good CB entering college, must be something wrong as he got a great scholarship. Because of that, his slurve ball (neither here nor there CB and slider) his weakest pitch was developed into a slider. He doesn't throw a CB at all, and has a specific out pitch. I think that's basically how it's done, in HS, college (good programs) and in pro ball.
Whoever told you that pitchers are chosen primarily on their bb. Go look at the chart over on MLB gameday, interesting. My son doesn't eve throw a CB, is he missing something?
I have no problem with HS players throwing CB's, again for the last time the post was about 10U throwing CB's. Somehow this discussion turned into GBM's kid throwing CB at 11 and how successful he has been. GBM, to be honest, most of our kids here were successful, yours is no different than most, your son is 14, let's see how that success turns into college scholarship, or beyond. I don't really care, nor do most here, how successful your 14 year old is/was in LL. It means NOTHING.
I don't remember telling my son how important winning was at an early age, we impressed the importance of learning how to be part of a team, listening and respecting the coach, and the game and most of all, win or lose HAVE FUN. Unfortunetly that concept seems to have gotten lost, probably why most kids turn away from baseball, they love the winning but don't learn from the losses.
Perhaps we have a different outlook on the pitching philosophy. Greg Maddux was once asked what the best pitch was. He replied "strike one". They then asked him what the perfect game would be and he replied "throwing 27 pitches". This means that he was getting an out on every pitch. Maddux was the most dominant pitcher of his day because he nibbled around the strike zone intentionally trying to induce swings leading to weakly hit balls. It was his blatant attack of the strike zone that kept him in the game for so long. He dominated hitters by staying ahead of them in the count and drawibg more swings. More swings translates directly into lower pitch counts.
If you asked any MLB pitcher if they would rather throw a breaking ball for a swing and a miss or a swing and a soft groud ball to the infield they will say everytime that it is better to draw a weak swing leading to a weakly hit ball. They all know that success for them is winning with the lowest effort possible. If a pitcher knows a pitch will draw a swing they also must realize that it is hardest to put good wood on anything but the fasball. this means that generally, a well placed CU or breaking ball that gets hit has less of a chance of finding the meat on the bat.
Offspeed pitches are designed like you say to mess up a batters timing. This translates directly into them swinging at the wrong time and causing the batter to hit the ball weakly rather than strongly. Let me ask- how many times have we seen a CU or Breaking ball that doesn't get the sweet spot on the bat or misses a batters most powerful position in his swing and it leads to a slow tapper back to the infield? It happens all the time in professional baseball. It is intended for that to happen. Scouts intentionally look for pitchers who throw less pitches getting ground balls leading to outs. Why? because a pitcher who throws less and gets batters off their game will go a long way in the majors.
I never said that a pitchers BB was what scouts primarily look for. Who said that? It wasn't me. I said the fastball and "velocity was king". What I did say however is that scouts very much do look at the quality of a pitchers CB which may be a deciding factor.
I only brought up my son to show that if throwing the CB at an early age is the cause of LL elbow then my son should have been the poster child for their campaign because he threw quite a bit of them when he was 11-12 in little leageue. My point was that there must be a misunderstanding about LL and the CB because I can see more cases of LL elbow from improper mechanics and poor conditioning and throwing fasballs than I see cases of merely throwing a CB at a young age. I know that you will just say that it will lead to problems later but I don't but it. the latests stats also don't correlate throwing CB's at an early age leads to elbow blowouts later on. What they have found is that playing year round, throwing hard (fasballs), playing fatigued or injured is the main underlying cause of LL elbow and for older players- tears and rupture of the UCL. What they are also finding is that improper timing in hard throwing pitchers has a direct correlation to overload stress on the elbow joint. Forget what pitches they are throwing and at what age they are throwing them at, the research is showing that bad mechanics, poor conditioning and playing through pain/injury are the leading cause to elbow and shoulder injuries.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
Experience in baseball is a wonderful thing.
Last Monday night, I listened to a 2 hour Q&A with Coach Marquess at Stanford.
One point he made was he gets kids drafted who never get an AB at Stanford and have less than 10 innings pitched in 3 years.
They didn't win and didn't contribute to winning but moved on to Milb.
In contrast he had a walk on who ended up pitching for him in Omaha in 2008. Brilliant student. 3.99 in some math and science area no one on the team could comprehend. Draft day came and went. When he didn't get picked, he sat with his coach..and sobbed.
Tell me about winning again.
Thanks for the education on Milb.
Our son has been there and done that.
Not sure I agree with your views on Milb and sure don't see the relevance of Milb to youth baseball and your emphasis on winning.
Many players at higher levels will tell you they get motivated by the bitterness of a loss or failure.
Everyone who gets drafted is because they are projected to win, or, they are palcing odds that they will develop into talent that will win. The players you mentioned who get drafted and never won are still players that are projected to win at the next level with their talent or skill level. They obviously must do something right better than another or they wouldn't get drafted. Something they do in their skillset is getting them noticed and seen as beinga a "projected winner".
Perhaps if winning isn't relevent, even at the youth level you should petition that all scoreboards and scorebooks should be done away with. Every kid at the youth level lives for the opportunity and chance of being better than their opponent they play against. I agree 100% with what you said about players at the pro levels get motivated through a loss and failure. It causes them to strive to be better- to train harder and hopefully outcompete their opponent. That same logic is what also applies in LL. Teams that get beat continually (son was on teams like that) strive harder to get better and hopefully win. It was a major contributing factor for my son to get better. the few years he was on a weaker losing team not only humbled him but it helped motivate him to work harder than his peers and become a better player. My son, along with millions of others who don't like losing, use their losses as motivating tools to become better and hopefully win. If a fortune teller was to tell people they would never win and always lose they would lose all motivation to work harder. This means that working harder is all about becoming successful.
quote:Forget what pitches they are throwing and at what age they are throwing them at, the research is showing that bad mechanics, poor conditioning and playing through pain/injury are the leading cause to elbow and shoulder injuries.
GBM,
My main reason for posting in this thread is so others who might read it have a balance of information in which to evaluate your comments and the conclusions which Sultan inserted.
I am going to end by cutting and pasting what I think is pertinent information from the article released this month by NATA:
"Coaches of youth and high school sports should have
certifications or credentials identifying specific knowledge
in areas related to sports safety, sports techniques
and skills, psychosocial aspects of childhood and
adolescence, growth and development, and common
health and medical concerns.13,16,26,27 Evidence Category:
C"
________________________________________
"A subsequent investigation20 of 3 suspected risk factors
(pitch type, pitch count, and pitching mechanics) found
that the use of breaking pitches and high pitch counts
increased the risk of both elbow and shoulder pain among
youth pitchers. Specifically, the risk of elbow pain among
pitchers using the slider increased 86% and the risk of
shoulder pain in those throwing curveballs increased 52%.
In addition, higher single-game pitch counts and higher
cumulative (season-long) game pitch counts were associated
with an increased risk of shoulder pain. This association
between game pitch count and shoulder injury was
strongest among 9- to 10-year-old and 13- to 14-year-old
pitchers. Interestingly, pitching mechanics were not significantly
associated with either elbow or shoulder pain in any
of the age groups studied.20 The authors20 concluded that
changeups remain the safest pitch for 9- to 14-year-olds to
throw and that pitch limits, rather than inning limits, may
be a better indicator of when pitchers should be removed
from pitching to allow adequate rest."
________________________________________
Others can come to their conclusions from reading your views as they are contrasted from current thinking and recommendations of The National Athletic Trainers Association.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
Again, you are comparing professional players to 13-14 year olds.
So are you saying that professioanl baseball players shouldn't be instructing the youth? That is what it sounds like. Professional baseball players instruct youth and teach them the same exact skills and conditioning techniques that they themselves use and train with. Are you kidding me?
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:quote:Forget what pitches they are throwing and at what age they are throwing them at, the research is showing that bad mechanics, poor conditioning and playing through pain/injury are the leading cause to elbow and shoulder injuries.
GBM,
My main reason for posting in this thread is so others who might read it have a balance of information in which to evaluate your comments and the conclusions which Sultan inserted.
I am going to end by cutting and pasting what I think is pertinent information from the article released this month by NATA:
"Coaches of youth and high school sports should have
certifications or credentials identifying specific knowledge
in areas related to sports safety, sports techniques
and skills, psychosocial aspects of childhood and
adolescence, growth and development, and common
health and medical concerns.13,16,26,27 Evidence Category:
C"
________________________________________
"A subsequent investigation20 of 3 suspected risk factors
(pitch type, pitch count, and pitching mechanics) found
that the use of breaking pitches and high pitch counts
increased the risk of both elbow and shoulder pain among
youth pitchers. Specifically, the risk of elbow pain among
pitchers using the slider increased 86% and the risk of
shoulder pain in those throwing curveballs increased 52%.
In addition, higher single-game pitch counts and higher
cumulative (season-long) game pitch counts were associated
with an increased risk of shoulder pain. This association
between game pitch count and shoulder injury was
strongest among 9- to 10-year-old and 13- to 14-year-old
pitchers. Interestingly, pitching mechanics were not significantly
associated with either elbow or shoulder pain in any
of the age groups studied.20 The authors20 concluded that
changeups remain the safest pitch for 9- to 14-year-olds to
throw and that pitch limits, rather than inning limits, may
be a better indicator of when pitchers should be removed
from pitching to allow adequate rest."
________________________________________
Others can come to their conclusions from reading your views as they are contrasted from current thinking and recommendations of The National Athletic Trainers Association.
Studies can be read in a myriad of ways and interpreted by a myriad of ways. It's kind of like that study where they showed that eating salad led to living longer. However, it is also known that people who eat salad are also healthy in a lot of other areas of their lives including getting proper excersize. So what truly is causing them to live longer?
As for the studies as you mentioned? I see it being no different. The pitchers who throw breaking balls at the youth levels who get injured are almost always the same kids who throw more pitches in games, throw harder, and play year round. What is the real cause? I am going to balk at the bad mechanics not being a factor. For starters, what do they classify as bad mechanics? This can varry from one person to the next. But to conclude that bad mechanics wasn't a factor is what should lead a person to question what their philosophy is on what "good mechanics" and "bad mechanics" are.
Are you trying to educate us?
No one, no one argued that poor mechanics, poor conditioning, overuse and playing through pain didn't cause injuries, did they?
I think a big point made here to you is that your son is 14, so you really don't know, at this point, exactly what will be in 2,3, maybe even 5 years, do you?
You continue to point out about your son's "success". If success at 14 means no injury issues, then he's been successful.
Funny part is, that most parents here whose sons go far beyond 14 never mention the word "success" when speaking about their player. You do understand that there are 14 year old successful players that never got past HS and there are non successful 14 year olds playing in ML. Or maybe you don't get that. Was is success at the 10-14 year old level anyway, winning games? Throwing 3-4 pitches for strikes, I don't get that explain.
By the way, you do know that part of Maddux success was because he broke everything into odds, besides knowing everything about every hitter he faced, what he threw was based on mathmatically odds, taught to him by his father who was a dealer in Vegas.
I never said that throwing a (true) CB (let's get that straight), means injury will occur, but just like Maddux using odds in the game, I think, along with others that it may increase the odds for injury later on. It's the same with beginning too early, as does trying to throw too hard, or throwing too much too early from the mound, all of these things help to increase the odds of injury happening.
JMO.
No one, no one argued that poor mechanics, poor conditioning, overuse and playing through pain didn't cause injuries, did they?
I think a big point made here to you is that your son is 14, so you really don't know, at this point, exactly what will be in 2,3, maybe even 5 years, do you?
You continue to point out about your son's "success". If success at 14 means no injury issues, then he's been successful.
Funny part is, that most parents here whose sons go far beyond 14 never mention the word "success" when speaking about their player. You do understand that there are 14 year old successful players that never got past HS and there are non successful 14 year olds playing in ML. Or maybe you don't get that. Was is success at the 10-14 year old level anyway, winning games? Throwing 3-4 pitches for strikes, I don't get that explain.
By the way, you do know that part of Maddux success was because he broke everything into odds, besides knowing everything about every hitter he faced, what he threw was based on mathmatically odds, taught to him by his father who was a dealer in Vegas.
I never said that throwing a (true) CB (let's get that straight), means injury will occur, but just like Maddux using odds in the game, I think, along with others that it may increase the odds for injury later on. It's the same with beginning too early, as does trying to throw too hard, or throwing too much too early from the mound, all of these things help to increase the odds of injury happening.
JMO.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
GBM,
Again, you are comparing professional players to 13-14 year olds.
So are you saying that professioanl baseball players shouldn't be instructing the youth? That is what it sounds like. Professional baseball players instruct youth and teach them the same exact skills and conditioning techniques that they themselves use and train with. Are you kidding me?
I didn't say that go back and read what you said. You stated that professionals said that they must be consistant to win over their peers, do 10-14 year old need to do that, or do they just need to learn how to do things properly to begin with.
quote:"Coaches of youth and high school sports should have
certifications or credentials identifying specific knowledge
in areas related to sports safety, sports techniques
and skills, psychosocial aspects of childhood and
adolescence, growth and development, and common
health and medical concerns.13,16,26,27 Evidence Category:
C"
Since you are coaching youth league, do you feel this applies to you?
It is intriguing to read how you rationalize away each aspect of research that doesn't fit your mold and view and what you have been posting about how you coach and teach.
As I said, others who might read this can reach their views and act accordingly.
Drafting a pitcher at Stanford who pitched less than 10 innings in 3 years because they project he is a "winner?"
They draft him because he throws 95, but not anywhere near the plate. He has never shown he can win beyond HS either in college or Summer leagues.
They passed over the Winner. He pitched in Omaha.
But again, thanks for the education on just about everything.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The pitchers who throw breaking balls at the youth levels who get injured are almost always the same kids who throw more pitches in games, throw harder, and play year round.
What study did you take that from or is that your opinion on what you have seen up to age 14?
Good point there infielddad, seen LOTS of guys get the nod because they throw the heat not outstanding anything else.
If it was based on winning, ugh, my player would have been in big trouble, he didn't even throw a decent CB in HS.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:quote:"Coaches of youth and high school sports should have
certifications or credentials identifying specific knowledge
in areas related to sports safety, sports techniques
and skills, psychosocial aspects of childhood and
adolescence, growth and development, and common
health and medical concerns.13,16,26,27 Evidence Category:
C"
Since you are coaching youth league, do you feel this applies to you?
It is intriguing to read how you rationalize away each aspect of research that doesn't fit your mold and view and what you have been posting about how you coach and teach.
As I said, others who might read this can reach their views and act accordingly.
Drafting a pitcher at Stanford who pitched less than 10 innings in 3 years because they project he is a "winner?"
They draft him because he throws 95, but not anywhere near the plate. He has never shown he can win beyond HS either in college or Summer leagues.
They passed over the Winner. He pitched in Omaha.
But again, thanks for the education on just about everything.
So do you think that every coach of youth kids should be a doctor or have a degree of some sorts? That is absolutely ridiculous. That recomendation has it's merits in a fictional world but in the real world LL coaches are going to be made up of nobodies in general who have no idea about mechancis or anything else. That is why leagues have adopted pitch counts and inning counts so that those who will never know or just don't care can't overuse kids arms.
I interpret the data from several sources, not just one opinion. I also interpret the data in light of real world happenings that I observe physically on our own ball fields. What I am seeing is a trend in arms and bodies less conditioned to throw, a continuance of teaching bad mechanics such as changing the natural arm slot of a pitcher, or, teaching kids old traditions and myths about mechanics. Of the few kids who I have taken on as field studies (whose names I won't mention) whom I know and have worked with, the leading cause of everyone of their elbow and shoulder issues is due to bad mechanics and not whether or not they are throwing breaking balls. I have watched them throw bullpens and they threw no breaking pitches or Change-ups and they still complain of elbow pain. Video analysis of each one of them all show a strkingly similar mechanic- they all lead with their elbow into foot plant and the arm gets violontly whipped around and eventually dragged around into release. This has been termed by others as a timing issue and the arm gets behind. There are even websites completely dedicated showing the correlation of this timing issue and elbow and shoulder injuries. So, it appears I am not the only one who has found this issue.
The pitcher who drafted with the 95 mph fasball is drafted because he is projected to be a winner. they are placing their odds that they can refine his skill into being a winner. No one drafts a projected loser. That is my point.
quote:What I am seeing is a trend in arms and bodies less conditioned to throw, a continuance of teaching bad mechanics such as changing the natural arm slot of a pitcher, or, teaching kids old traditions and myths about mechanics. Of the few kids who I have taken on as field studies (whose names I won't mention) whom I know and have worked with, the leading cause of everyone of their elbow and shoulder issues is due to bad mechanics and not whether or not they are throwing breaking balls. I have watched them throw bullpens and they threw no breaking pitches or Change-ups and they still complain of elbow pain. Video analysis of each one of them all show a strkingly similar mechanic- they all lead with their elbow into foot plant and the arm gets violontly whipped around and eventually dragged around into release.
In one paragraph you are calling the NATA recommendations on education/certifying youth coaches...such as yourself "ridiculous" but possibly with merits on only a fictional basis.
Would you even consider that thoughtful recommendation of a consensus group like that, probably arrived at through many hundreds of hours of deliberation, might be directed at coaches like GBM?
And then, after you throw the recommendation under the bus, you provide medical and bio-mechanical opinions on causation of arm injuries!
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The pitchers who throw breaking balls at the youth levels who get injured are almost always the same kids who throw more pitches in games, throw harder, and play year round.
What study did you take that from or is that your opinion on what you have seen up to age 14?
Good point there infielddad, seen LOTS of guys get the nod because they throw the heat not outstanding anything else.
If it was based on winning, ugh, my player would have been in big trouble, he didn't even throw a decent CB in HS.
I will provide a link. Here is some of the relevent information from the study I will quote-
quote:There were no differences among the groups in age at the beginning of the study, in number of years playing catcher during the study, or in age began using curveballs. About half the short-term and injured pitchers used curveballs, whereas almost all the successful pitchers (140 of 143) used curveballs
Defining or interpreting this data suggests that throwing CB's has no effect on injury. If we were to take just those who threw curveballs from the study we would have 156 pitchers who threw the CB during the study. Of all those, the trend showed that throwing more than 100 innings increased the risk of injury. This study however doesn't show that there is a trend of injury correlating with throwing the CB. 98% of the uninjured (successful) pitchers studied threw the CB during the time period studied.
Thus, we may conclude that throwing curveballs does not increase the risk for injury. The trend actually shows that the higher percentage of players throwing the CB are the ones not injured. Now this of course can be translated or interpreted in different ways but sufficeth to say, a pitcher who throws harder and more will usually throw less curveballs. This may mean that pitcher age, velocity and how many pitches thrown in a year has more correlation to injury.
Studies have shown that higher velocities coupled with pitching frequency greatly increases injury risk. What studies are showing in relation to the CB is that use of the CB amongst youth pitchers is highest in the nonijured groups. This tells me that there are other factors besides throwing a CB leading to injuries.
Do the math yourself. Here is the link-
http://assets.ngin.com/attachm...10_year_study_1_.pdf
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:quote:What I am seeing is a trend in arms and bodies less conditioned to throw, a continuance of teaching bad mechanics such as changing the natural arm slot of a pitcher, or, teaching kids old traditions and myths about mechanics. Of the few kids who I have taken on as field studies (whose names I won't mention) whom I know and have worked with, the leading cause of everyone of their elbow and shoulder issues is due to bad mechanics and not whether or not they are throwing breaking balls. I have watched them throw bullpens and they threw no breaking pitches or Change-ups and they still complain of elbow pain. Video analysis of each one of them all show a strkingly similar mechanic- they all lead with their elbow into foot plant and the arm gets violontly whipped around and eventually dragged around into release.
In one paragraph you are calling the NATA recommendations on education/certifying youth coaches...such as yourself "ridiculous" but possibly with merits on only a fictional basis.
Would you even consider that thoughtful recommendation of a consensus group like that, probably arrived at through many hundreds of hours of deliberation, might be directed at coaches like GBM?
And then, after you throw the recommendation under the bus, you provide medical and bio-mechanical opinions on causation of arm injuries!
Let me give you a for instance. I have this kid who has elbow pain and he asks formy advice. Suppose I tell him that he needs to not throw as much in games or throw CB's. He then tells me he hardly pitches at all and doesn't throw the CB very much. I then tell him that according to recomendations it probably isn't your mechanics (citing your study). What's left?
As you can see that is the wrong approach. Finding the real cause of his arm pain is the right approach. Where am I going to start to look? If it isn't his pitch count or his throwing the CB then what is left? The first thing i am going to do is evaluate his throwing mechanics, how hard he throws, his conditioning, etc. That is the right approach.
The right approach would be to recommend getting qualified medical advice.
Isn't that infielddad's point? Maybe what's going on even has NOTHING to do with throwing a baseball? But all these self appointed, I know what I am doing because I read a lot of stuff people, are trying to figure out something they are not qualified to figure out. I would imagine that is what is being pointed out in teh study.
Do you think that if a HS, college or a pro player has a discomfort or pain issue their coach/manager tries to figure it out, no, that's not their job, they pass it on to much more qualified individuals for evaluation first then they proceed.
You told us what you do for a living, how does that make you qualified to determine what's going on?
Isn't that infielddad's point? Maybe what's going on even has NOTHING to do with throwing a baseball? But all these self appointed, I know what I am doing because I read a lot of stuff people, are trying to figure out something they are not qualified to figure out. I would imagine that is what is being pointed out in teh study.
Do you think that if a HS, college or a pro player has a discomfort or pain issue their coach/manager tries to figure it out, no, that's not their job, they pass it on to much more qualified individuals for evaluation first then they proceed.
You told us what you do for a living, how does that make you qualified to determine what's going on?
Hey GBM,
Go to MLB.com gameday and take a look at the type of pitches the starters throw.
The 2 and 4 seam FB is dominant over any pitch. If the CB is as effective (as you say) in producing the weak hit why are they not using more CB. Actually most RHP don't even throw CB, but rather sliders.
If youth bb is supposed to mimic pro ball (as you say), why are you NOT teaching the pitch to youngsters that produces the most weak hits, the 2 seam sinker?
I still stand on the premise that most coaches teach LL CB so they can't be touched, thus creating the win, which I guess in your opinion is what success is at the 10-14 level.
Just sayin.....
Go to MLB.com gameday and take a look at the type of pitches the starters throw.
The 2 and 4 seam FB is dominant over any pitch. If the CB is as effective (as you say) in producing the weak hit why are they not using more CB. Actually most RHP don't even throw CB, but rather sliders.
If youth bb is supposed to mimic pro ball (as you say), why are you NOT teaching the pitch to youngsters that produces the most weak hits, the 2 seam sinker?
I still stand on the premise that most coaches teach LL CB so they can't be touched, thus creating the win, which I guess in your opinion is what success is at the 10-14 level.
Just sayin.....
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
The right approach would be to recommend getting qualified medical advice.
Isn't that infielddad's point? Maybe what's going on even has NOTHING to do with throwing a baseball? But all these self appointed, I know what I am doing because I read a lot of stuff people, are trying to figure out something they are not qualified to figure out. I would imagine that is what is being pointed out in teh study.
Do you think that if a HS, college or a pro player has a discomfort or pain issue their coach/manager tries to figure it out, no, that's not their job, they pass it on to much more qualified individuals for evaluation first then they proceed.
You told us what you do for a living, how does that make you qualified to determine what's going on?
If a player has chronic pain issues I always tell them to get medical advice. I am speaking of the kids who always have the persistant joint pain which is somewhat common in pitchers. My first advice for them is to not pitch through any kind of pain.
I amy not be "qualified" in the medical field but at least I am actively willing to approach the problem and try to understand and do something about it in a realistic manner.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Hey GBM,
Go to MLB.com gameday and take a look at the type of pitches the starters throw.
The 2 and 4 seam FB is dominant over any pitch. If the CB is as effective (as you say) in producing the weak hit why are they not using more CB. Actually most RHP don't even throw CB, but rather sliders.
If youth bb is supposed to mimic pro ball (as you say), why are you NOT teaching the pitch to youngsters that produces the most weak hits, the 2 seam sinker?
I still stand on the premise that most coaches teach LL CB so they can't be touched, thus creating the win, which I guess in your opinion is what success is at the 10-14 level.
Just sayin.....
Let's use the term "breaking balls" because one persons definition is different than anothers. Some pitchers say they throw a curve when others say they throw the slider.
I totally agree that the fastabll dominates pitches thrown. I am not arguin that. I even said my son was only throwing the CB 25% of the time. If you can't understand that then I don't know what to tell you.
Of the placed offspeed and breaking balls in pro ball, the ones hit draw ground balls, the mistakes are usually taken yard. Pitchers do not try to throw offspeed pitches up in the zone because a mistake there means a home run. They try to place their breaking balls and Cu in the lower part of the zone or out of the zone completely. If they do swing (hopefully they do) they will either miss it or hit a weakly hit ground ball.
For my son, he is a natural sinkerball pitcher because of his arm slot. Most sinkerball pitchers throw from a low 3/4 arm slot. So, a 2 seamer is not necessarily a ground ball pitch. Son gets greater sink on his 4 seam when he locates down in the zone.
Teaching kids to throw the offspeed is all about locating it at the bottom of the strike zone. It's about downward angle and biting towards out of the zone. Batters who swing are thus most likely to hit ground balls. This the same for fastball sinkerball pitchers. They live on the downward angle of their pitches heading out of the lower part of the strike zone.
Oh I am sorry, I remember you telling us that your son did so well because he thriew from different arm angles, in fact I remember us having quite a discussion about that.
So now he throws only from a low 3/4? My sons a sinkerballer and he throws from a high 3/4 so how can you say that most sinkerballers throw from low arm slots?
I don't know what to say anymore, you change your stuff everytime you post something, very confusing. I understand your good intentions to help others, even though half of what you do is very strange.
This link best provides how I feel, about how we felt was best for our pitcher and what someone explained to me the other day.
What more can I say, other than it's not hard to understadn , even with the knowledge available, that so many young pitchers are injured.
http://www.webball.com/cms/page7202.cfm
So now he throws only from a low 3/4? My sons a sinkerballer and he throws from a high 3/4 so how can you say that most sinkerballers throw from low arm slots?
I don't know what to say anymore, you change your stuff everytime you post something, very confusing. I understand your good intentions to help others, even though half of what you do is very strange.
This link best provides how I feel, about how we felt was best for our pitcher and what someone explained to me the other day.
What more can I say, other than it's not hard to understadn , even with the knowledge available, that so many young pitchers are injured.
http://www.webball.com/cms/page7202.cfm