10U Pitcher Curveballs

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:A curveball that is a "12-6 curveball" is one that breaks from 12-6 regardless of what grip or how it is thrown. A person such as one who has a high over the top slot can thus throw a knuckle curve with 12-6 break- thats a no brainer! A true Knuckle curve is no different than a regular curve other than the mere placement of the finger. Besides that they are thrown the same. I hope that clarifys.

What?
You DO know that if you talk to 10 different major league pitchers you’ll get 10 different grips and 10 different ways to throw the “Same” pitch…right?
And you DID read where I DESCRIBED how each pitch I mentioned was thrown, as I teach them?
A true 12 to 6 curveball and a knuckle curve are NOT thrown the same way.

I read all of that and understand what you are saying. I was just pointing out that a "12-6" curve can be a knuckle curve "if" it has 12-6 break.

So, a true 12-6 curveball can indeed be a knuckle curve- it just depends on the motion of break.

So perhaps- what do you define as the difference between a "12-6" CB and a Knuckle CB?

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:A curveball that is a "12-6 curveball" is one that breaks from 12-6 regardless of what grip or how it is thrown. A person such as one who has a high over the top slot can thus throw a knuckle curve with 12-6 break- thats a no brainer! A true Knuckle curve is no different than a regular curve other than the mere placement of the finger. Besides that they are thrown the same. I hope that clarifys.

What?
You DO know that if you talk to 10 different major league pitchers you’ll get 10 different grips and 10 different ways to throw the “Same” pitch…right?
And you DID read where I DESCRIBED how each pitch I mentioned was thrown, as I teach them?
A true 12 to 6 curveball and a knuckle curve are NOT thrown the same way.

I read all of that and understand what you are saying. I was just pointing out that a "12-6" curve can be a knuckle curve "if" it has 12-6 break.

So, a true 12-6 curveball can indeed be a knuckle curve- it just depends on the motion of break.

So perhaps- what do you define as the difference between a "12-6" CB and a Knuckle CB?

What?

Wow..now I know why everyone else abandoned this one.

To throw a TRUE 12 to 6 curveball you release the ball differently than the traditional knuckle curve.

The knuckle curve may drop or break down but the ball does NOT rotate in a 12 to 6 manner.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:

What?

Wow..now I know why everyone else abandoned this one.

To throw a TRUE 12 to 6 curveball you release the ball differently than the traditional knuckle curve.

The knuckle curve may drop or break down but the ball does NOT rotate in a 12 to 6 manner.

First off we need to make sure we are both talking about the same knuckle curve. I am referring tot he hard breaking curveball like that of Mike Mussina's and Cliff Lee. This is a standard CB just with placing the one finger differently but thrown otherwise with traditional mechanics.

A knuckle curve is not defined by its breaking motion but rather the "grip" by which it is thrown. We are talking of the pitch sometimes referred to as the "spike curve" here. This pitch traditionally has a sharper/harder break than the traditional gripped CB. The motion of the break- whether it be 12-6, 1-7, 2-8, 11-5, 10-4 etc is determined by a pitchers individual mechanics and arm slot.

For an over-the-top pitcher throwing a knuckle-curve it may very well indeed have a 12-6 break.

Arm slot is generally what defines the break on a pitchers CB. An over-the-top pitcher or even high 3/4 can throw a 12-6 breaking CB whereas a low 3/4 throwing with identical mechancis as the over-the-top guy will get 2-8 break. I don't know of any low 3/4 guys who throw a 12-6 breaking cb because it is counterproductive to their natural arm slot to generate that breaking motion.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by ncball:
You are exactly who I'm talking about! You have no business acting like you know something when you know very little and your information could hurt kids. Honestly, you need to go away.

I know this is an emotional issue for some.

Can we just stick to facts?

Not emotional to me at all. The guy is a novice who posts way too much. I see this all the time- the more someone posts, the more they think they know!

Novice eh? I am still awaiting your reply what exactly it is I am teaching that is so wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:A curveball that is a "12-6 curveball" is one that breaks from 12-6 regardless of what grip or how it is thrown. A person such as one who has a high over the top slot can thus throw a knuckle curve with 12-6 break- thats a no brainer! A true Knuckle curve is no different than a regular curve other than the mere placement of the finger. Besides that they are thrown the same. I hope that clarifys.

What?
You DO know that if you talk to 10 different major league pitchers you’ll get 10 different grips and 10 different ways to throw the “Same” pitch…right?
And you DID read where I DESCRIBED how each pitch I mentioned was thrown, as I teach them?
A true 12 to 6 curveball and a knuckle curve are NOT thrown the same way.

I'm going to stay out of the fray. Since I was asked about the difference in the two pitches I'll comment ctandc is speaking for me very well.

I was just reading about Matt Desalvo a pitcher who throws a "12-6 knuckle curveball". Hum.....

For all you who do not know what a 12-6 curveball is and how it is determined, here-

"Curveballs have a variety of trajectories and breaks among pitchers. This chiefly has to do with the arm slot and release point of a given pitcher, which is in turn governed by how comfortable the pitcher is throwing the overhand curveball.

Pitchers who can throw a curveball completely over handed with the arm slot more or less vertical will have a curve ball that will break straight downwards. This is called a 12-6 curve as the break of the pitch is on a straight path downwards like the hands of a clock at 12 and 6. The axis of rotation of a 12–6 curve is parallel with the level ground and perpendicular to its flight path.

Pitchers who throw their curveballs with the arm slot at an angle will throw a curve ball that breaks down and toward the pitcher's off-hand. In the most extreme cases the curve will break very wide laterally. Because the slider and the curveball share nearly the same grip and have the same unique throwing motions, this curveball breaks much like a slider, and is colloquially termed a "slurve". The axis of rotation on a slurve will still be more or less perpendicular to the flight path of the ball, however it will not be parallel to the ground. With some pitchers, the difference between curveball and other pitches such as slider and slurve, may be difficult to detect or even describe." (Wikipedia)

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
For all you who do not know what a 12-6 curveball is and how it is determined

OMG....

Are you building an argument against people who have worked with lots of people who are much older than 15 using wikipedia?

You really used wikipedia?

I don't suppose that you are gonna procede to tell me the wikipedia article is wrong are you....

I used the article because it is pretty basic and easy to understand.

C'mon, this isn't some mickey mouse forum is it?

There are a lot of inaccuracies on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is public posting. Wikipedia is no more likely to be accurate as every post on hsbaseballweb.

OK, OK, so- is the wikipedia article wrong? I thought personally it was written up pretty well.

I wondered when it would happen. lol.

All remote credibility is completely gone now.

Like Kenny Rogers use to sing "you gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, know when to run".



RUN

YGD,
You are right, I guess that is what ncball had in mind when he made his post.

I find a lot of decrepencies in his posts, I am sure I am not the only one.
An example: according to wikipedia and GBM the overhand slot produces a 12-6 break. If I remember correctly, GBM has told us his son's CB had a 12-6 break (of course), but he also has stated that his son has a low 3/4 slot, so that would mean according to GBM info supplied, it wouldn't be a 12-6 break. Right? Or is this one of those things that goes back to when his son was throwing his pitches from different arm slots (remember that one)?
So many stories.

It's not wikipedia I doubt, wiki is what it is, as mentioned it is not always reliable correct info.

What I believe is that much of what we are told is a bunch of BS. That is what happens when someone posts too much. It's real easy to try to fool people but eventually it catches up.
Right?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
YGD,
You are right, I guess that is what ncball had in mind when he made his post.

I find a lot of decrepencies in his posts, I am sure I am not the only one.
An example: according to wikipedia and GBM the overhand slot produces a 12-6 break. If I remember correctly, GBM has told us his son's CB had a 12-6 break (of course), but he also has stated that his son has a low 3/4 slot, so that would mean according to GBM info supplied, it wouldn't be a 12-6 break. Right? Or is this one of those things that goes back to when his son was throwing his pitches from different arm slots (remember that one)?
So many stories.

It's not wikipedia I doubt, wiki is what it is, as mentioned it is not always reliable correct info.

What I believe is that much of what we are told is a bunch of BS. That is what happens when someone posts too much. It's real easy to try to fool people but eventually it catches up.
Right?

TPM,

I am calling you out on this one. I have never maintained that my son's curveball had a 12-6 break. Perhaps you could bring up the post where I said that because I am quite certain I have never said that. I am calling for a direct reference here.

It's also funny that you post as much or more than me....hum.

Okay I'll bite..here's my take.

The TRUE 12 to 6 curve ball usually isn't. It's referred to as that, because that's the rotation many pitchers are trying to acheive. Natural arm motion, slot and release methods, not to mention grip differences, will alter this slightly. Most people who have been around baseball and pitchers assume this is common knowledge.

A true 12 to 6 curveball, by definition would DROP not curve...at all. It would be, in effect, a drop ball. Normally it's not something a pitcher tries to accomplish...the resulting small alterations to the 12 to 6 rotation of course effect the actual break of the pitch.

I sometimes refer to the curveball I threw, and the curve I normally teach, as an "overhand" curve. Now don't get anxious here..that doesn't a pitcher has to have a perfect overhand arm slot / release. It helps some pitchers visualize getting "on top" of the baseball and shortening extension to get the desired rotation.

The knuckle curve, that I (and others here it seems) are referring to is simply a modified 2 seam fastball. Grip a traditional 2 seam FB. Fold the pointer finger so the knuckle (fingertip for some not for others) rests against the ball. Then throw the ball as you would a fastball. The grip changes the release and spin on the baseball.

We're eseentially arguing over names and labels here. EVERY pitcher is different, and THUS common sense tells you every pitch thrown by different pitchers, EVEN if gripped the same and called by the same name, can be different.

It's the same for the Sinker, the cutter, etc etc.

The biggest thing ANY pitcher can do, and what most all successful pitchers that have played for a longer time (HS and beyond) do, is to EXPERIMENT with grips, pitches and how they move.

It's something I take for granted that other people know. Not because I'm some baseball genius, but because I pitched long enough to figure out HOW certain pitches and grips worked OR DIDN'T work for me. I've tried to pass that on to the kids I've coached / coach.

I truly believe one of the things, of more than a few, that players today have missed out on, as far as baseball, is EXPERIMENTATION. I couldn't tell you how many HOURS upon HOURS I spent throwing rocks, all forms of balls and about anything else, and figuring out how the ball, or other object, would reach when I gripped it a certain way or threw it a certain way. Everything is so structured.

I ENCOURAGE my pitchers to experiment after I teach them a pitch. The only hard and fast rule I have is to make sure they don't throw a "Breaking Ball" by trying to use the "door knob" motion. I was actually taught that for throwing a slider by a high level coach. It was the only pitch that ever made my arm "twinge"....

That "door knob" motion is what many coaches are referring to when they say "Little League Curve".

I agree that a true 12-6 rotation on the curveball is seldom seen in baseball. I think perhaps our debate is confused because of semantics.

I taught my son to throw his knuckle curve with the same grip as a traditional curveball except for placing the pointer finger in the knuckle position directly next to the other finger. He then threw it just like a fastball. Over time he learned to angle his wrist more and more until he developed a true CB. The break on my son's curve has always been from about 1-7 to 2-8 (from his perspective). There is a kid on our HS team who throws a CB with true 12-6 rotation. But, he also throws from an over-the-top arm slot and so it is natural for him to have that break.

ctandc,
My son pronated his CB and it was based on what you have posted you teach, the break was a result of the grip more then the snap, etc. He didn't use it and then sparingly until he was 14.

I find it interesting how GBM's son went from teaching his son a knuckle curve with a 12-6 break to throwing it like a FB with a 1-7 to 2-8 break with wrist action later on. That's not what was what we were led to beleive which is a big part of my issue, how things change over the course of the post once others come in that most likely know a bit more about it than what's posted in wiki. Instead of being so darm stubborn, take this opportunity to learn from others, instead of acting like a know it all.

I think some of the issue here with the original topic is whether a 10,11 year old really needs to throw any CB or not. I still beleive that the jury is out on whether it is a safe pitch (the TRUE CB thrown with wrist snap and supination).

You are correct about variations on the grip, that is what makes a pitcher unique, you got that right for sure. It doesn't matter about the grip but the action produced by the ball. That's why it's not good practice to call out ML players and their FB and try to model your player after that, because most likely they are pretty unique in what they do for the results anyway.

According to information presented here, especially from wikipedia, only confirms more to me, that the individual has really not much of a clue about working with young pitchers. JMO.

GBM, I specifically remember the brag about the 12-6 break at 10-11, it may not have been here, as well as the low 3/4, I am not going to sift through the BS to find it. You posted it you changed your story.

Besides, it's not my credility that's an issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I agree that a true 12-6 rotation on the curveball is seldom seen in baseball. I think perhaps our debate is confused because of semantics.

I taught my son to throw his knuckle curve with the same grip as a traditional curveball except for placing the pointer finger in the knuckle position directly next to the other finger. He then threw it just like a fastball. Over time he learned to angle his wrist more and more until he developed a true CB. The break on my son's curve has always been from about 1-7 to 2-8 (from his perspective). There is a kid on our HS team who throws a CB with true 12-6 rotation. But, he also throws from an over-the-top arm slot and so it is natural for him to have that break.

"Angle his wrist more"?

Which way? When in the delivery?

As for younger pitchers throwing them.

IF they are taught correctly, and they don't make it their only pitch, I still believe general overuse is a bigger issue.

Of course those are two BIG IF's.

I remember when I learned my curve from my Dad. I think I was 10 or 11. He caught me screwing around in the yard, twisting and turning my arm trying to "Throw a curve". He then showed me how to throw a curve ball. He told me doing what I was doing was a sure way to hurt my arm, He then told me I had to practice the curve ball WITH HIM. However I could only do that once I could throw my FB for so many strikes that session. He then said I could ONLY Throw the curve ball when I was UP in the count, and never more than one curve ball to a batter.

What I later realized he was doing was making me RELY and develop my FAST BALL and not come to rely on the curve ball. Many coaches and kids fall in love with the breaking pitches at a young age because it gets outs.

The benefit to learning to throw it and control it at a young age? Sure the adjustment to 60'6" is an adjustment. But the fundamental throwing motion is the same. In fact I told my son to just TRUST the pitch, aim it at the batter's head and let it loose. He quickly got the hang of it.

The benefit? (I rambled sorry) is that a young pitcher gains CONFIDENCE in throwing that pitch in any count. I remember my son getting a kid out last year. I remember it because the count was full, the bases were loaded and it was the last inning and we were up a run. I was PRAYING it ended there, since I was about to soil my shorts I had to go so bad (bad Chinese food for lunch) and the bathroom was quite a walk from the field. I was the only coach there at the time. The opposing 3rd base coach said "Full count, you know he's coming with a FB."

The kid took this as a challenge I guess. He shook off the catcher (I don't call pitches my catchers / pitchers do, they should learn this before HS, make them THINK not just throw) and fed the kid a hook that back doored him. The hitter looked at the coach and mumbled "Fast ball huh?"

I do know there are several kids on my son's JV team who have pitched in the past. They play for a certain Academy that gives lessons and runs teams. The pitching coach there doesn't believe in teaching curve balls at this age yet. They get feasted on in JV and travel once opposing hitters know they don't have a hook. They all have a good change up, so I think it's just a mental thing for the hitters.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
ctandc,
My son pronated his CB and it was based on what you have posted you teach, the break was a result of the grip more then the snap, etc. He didn't use it and then sparingly until he was 14.

I find it interesting how GBM's son went from teaching his son a knuckle curve with a 12-6 break to throwing it like a FB with a 1-7 to 2-8 break with wrist action later on. That's not what was what we were led to beleive which is a big part of my issue, how things change over the course of the post once others come in that most likely know a bit more about it than what's posted in wiki. Instead of being so darm stubborn, take this opportunity to learn from others, instead of acting like a know it all.

I think some of the issue here with the original topic is whether a 10,11 year old really needs to throw any CB or not. I still beleive that the jury is out on whether it is a safe pitch (the TRUE CB thrown with wrist snap and supination).

You are correct about variations on the grip, that is what makes a pitcher unique, you got that right for sure. It doesn't matter about the grip but the action produced by the ball. That's why it's not good practice to call out ML players and their FB and try to model your player after that, because most likely they are pretty unique in what they do for the results anyway.

According to information presented here, especially from wikipedia, only confirms more to me, that the individual has really not much of a clue about working with young pitchers. JMO.

GBM, I specifically remember the brag about the 12-6 break at 10-11, it may not have been here, as well as the low 3/4, I am not going to sift through the BS to find it. You posted it you changed your story.

Besides, it's not my credility that's an issue.

It is your credibility though. You have been known in the past to post bogus information about me. I called you out on this because I know for a fact you are making this BS up. I have never claimed that my son threw anything with a 12-6 break.

I can gaurentee that you searched and searched in vain for that post and it flat out doesn't exist! Why? Because I never said that.

If you are going to make accusations you need to back it up with facts, with references because it isn't fair to go on rants about people on this board and spread misinformation and lies. Either find the source or recant your statement.

Sorry to be so blunt but you really need to learn to stop spouting misinformation about people. We don't do that with you. Show the same courtesy back and do the same.

I have a college player, high school player, and a 10 year old. So my 10 year old has seen the curve and can throw one effectively but why would I take a chance of hurting his arm with it. He has not played a game worthy of hurting his arm yet but neither has one of the others and they have both played in big games.
I hear you GBM saying that winning is what it is about and I am all for winning but not at all costs and that is what I see in youth baseball today. I watch these kids who their dads are like you and feel like throwing a curveball gives them an advantage but again it is just youth baseball. It really does not matter in the whole scheme of things if pro baseball is the final goal. I just hate to see parents and coaches take a chance of hurting a kid's arm when the final goal could care less what the kid did at 10 or 11 or 14 or 16. They really don't care until they are able for the draft or college. So why take a chance? And I have read all the studies good and bad and I have never heard a former pro pitcher say that a 10 year old pitching a curve ball is a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I have a college player, high school player, and a 10 year old. So my 10 year old has seen the curve and can throw one effectively but why would I take a chance of hurting his arm with it. He has not played a game worthy of hurting his arm yet but neither has one of the others and they have both played in big games.
I hear you GBM saying that winning is what it is about and I am all for winning but not at all costs and that is what I see in youth baseball today. I watch these kids who their dads are like you and feel like throwing a curveball gives them an advantage but again it is just youth baseball. It really does not matter in the whole scheme of things if pro baseball is the final goal. I just hate to see parents and coaches take a chance of hurting a kid's arm when the final goal could care less what the kid did at 10 or 11 or 14 or 16. They really don't care until they are able for the draft or college. So why take a chance? And I have read all the studies good and bad and I have never heard a former pro pitcher say that a 10 year old pitching a curve ball is a good thing.

And that's fine. At least you are informed enough to make your OWN decision.

The truth is that most kids throwing a lot of pitching at 10 years old won't be pitching in 5 or 6 years anyway.

Why?

Well in no particular order...injury,girls, overuse, lack of growth,girls, lack of arm strength, other interests over baseball, girls, earning money, girls..

You get the idea.

Seeing a pre puberty kid throwing curve ball after curve ball is one thing. Having a kid throw a couple an inning, the proper way, is another animal entirely.

While I'm definitely for keeping kids safe and not getting hurt...I'm also starting to see that so many parents, coaches and players (the least out of the three surprisingly) keep NOT doing this or that because of a future in baseball that may never materialize. In fact the odds are against it being there.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
...They get feasted on in JV and travel once opposing hitters know they don't have a hook. They all have a good change up, so I think it's just a mental thing for the hitters.

I found the opposite when my team was coming up. We competed at the highest level and against the best teams with only fastball and changeup through 13U. We were a perennial contender at AAU Nationals and Battle in the South. We never threw CBs.

Our kids threw 10 changeups every practice after long tossing. I taught them how to throw CBs in the bullpen but we didn't throw them in the game until they were 14. I just didn't feel comfortable risking their future to win a game. We kept the same core of 10-11 kids from 8U-14U, adding 2-3 kids each year. Of those 10, all were on varsity as sophs.

What I noticed was that we had better command of the FB than most teams. We had above average velocity. We had other methods of confusing hitters rather than a CB.

Did I mention that the only times we played our natural age group is when we went to the bigger tournaments?

On a separate note, we never bunted, except for basehits. I wanted them to learn to hit in all counts and situations (especially hitting behind the runner at 2B with 0 outs). While we practiced the bunt, we never used it. We spent more time on leads and stealing - which, coincidentally, we still hold the record at CDP for stolen bases as a team (157 in 1 week).

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
What I noticed was that we had better command of the FB than most teams. We had above average velocity. We had other methods of confusing hitters rather than a CB.

Redbird,
Been following your posts for a very long time, you are one here I think that's got it right and the right thing to do for young players that you coach.

I am going to give my advice as a parent for parents of young players just beginning to pitch and reading this post, do your homework, understand where the advice is coming from, and from who and most of all, forget all the bragging about 10-14 year old success, means nothing. If you want your players to try to get to the higher levels, this is about future development, a players FB and his command determines where and how far they will go, no this BB. And don't confuse the difference as to what grown men need to do to survive in the game vs yougn kids who are playing for fun and future development.
My sons teams when he played youthball were also contenders among their age (actually they usually played up). The kids were not allowed to throw in games a CB and that was way back in 1995+. And my son's 10-12 year old coach was one who didn't take losing well. It wasn't so much about developement but rather being able to remain in the game as long as you can without injury. If young players are taught properly, there are other ways to get hitters out (as noted by Redbird).

Jeff, I know you understand, your son is at the point in his young bb career where he is getting attention (when it counts) and I am sure that you look back and feel that you did the best you could to help him achieve a his possible goals in good health.

Things happen to pitchers all of the time, it's a part of being a pitcher, but the goal should always be to keep him as safe as possible, sometimes that means when young he's not as good as the others, he may lose, it doesn't matter, no win at the pre HS level means anything if it sets up for injury later on.

Hum....still waiting on you TPM, where is the post?

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I have a college player, high school player, and a 10 year old. So my 10 year old has seen the curve and can throw one effectively but why would I take a chance of hurting his arm with it. He has not played a game worthy of hurting his arm yet but neither has one of the others and they have both played in big games.
I hear you GBM saying that winning is what it is about and I am all for winning but not at all costs and that is what I see in youth baseball today. I watch these kids who their dads are like you and feel like throwing a curveball gives them an advantage but again it is just youth baseball. It really does not matter in the whole scheme of things if pro baseball is the final goal. I just hate to see parents and coaches take a chance of hurting a kid's arm when the final goal could care less what the kid did at 10 or 11 or 14 or 16. They really don't care until they are able for the draft or college. So why take a chance? And I have read all the studies good and bad and I have never heard a former pro pitcher say that a 10 year old pitching a curve ball is a good thing.

I have said over and over again that you keep score because someone wins and someone loses. Winning isn't everything especially at a young age. However, by the time you get into competetive travel ball and HS ball it is about winning, at least on a personal level. Losers ( I am not speaking of actual team wins)don't make it to the next level because they don't have the desire to truly compete. And, a "L" can often times be a "w" if it achieves a goal or one feels good about it.

So what about the danger of fastballs on young arms?

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
...So what about the danger of fastballs on young arms?

That is why I always had my kids in throwing programs and on pitch counts. Keeping the arm healthy is the goal. My pitchers knew they only had 60 pitches up to age 12. If that occurred in 2 innings or 6, they were done.

By challenging the young pitchers to throw FB and CU, you teach them command and build their competitiveness. By placing them on pitch counts, you teach them to be efficient. (I never was a big fan of wasting the 0-2).

The thing is...we really don't know about CBs, so why chance it at a young age?

I agree about strict pitch counts and all. A few years ago my son played a travel team where they pitched him way too much and we left that team for that reason alone.

On the CB I think thejury is still out on that pitch. My philosophy has always been to minimize the pitch count per inning and save the arm. If a pitcher can throw the FB and command it and wants to throw a CB and he can be taught right- by all means teach it to him. Of the few kids I have taught to throw the CB, none of them have had any issues from throwing it (knock on wood). My beef has generally always been with kids who pitch through pain or who suffer pain, especially in the joints.

It's something i believe I have a good idea about but just as anyone who dedicates their time to studying pitching mechanics and conditioning, it truly is just a philosophy that is unique to each.

I was at a HS game tonight and watched two teams play and the pitchers were both throwing on sore arms, and everyone in the crowd knew it! That kind of thing drives me crazy. Everyone in the crowd also knows it wasn't from throwing curveballs, no, everyone had the general consensus that it was because of the overtaxing (high pitch counts coupled with too many innings over too short of rest periods) just trying to get that one last batter. Heck, that one last batter gets stretched out again and again and again until it stretches into one more inning and then just one more game.

I look back at the 10-11 age groups son used to play in years ago and think, man, that was nothing compared with this- it borderlines on abuse. Some pitchers will not come out of the game if their coach keeps asking them "just one more".

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
..My philosophy has always been to minimize the pitch count per inning and save the arm...

I agree with that philosophy but I don't think the CB is the way to minimize pitches. Command of the CB is not nearly as good as that of the FB. If we can throw a FB for strikes 75% of the time and the CB is thrown for 50% of the time, I'll take my chances with the FB.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
..My philosophy has always been to minimize the pitch count per inning and save the arm...

I agree with that philosophy but I don't think the CB is the way to minimize pitches. Command of the CB is not nearly as good as that of the FB. If we can throw a FB for strikes 75% of the time and the CB is thrown for 50% of the time, I'll take my chances with the FB.

A lot depends on the team, the pitch count, and the batter. I do know that I tracked pitch counts when my son pitched when he was 11-12 and saw a substancial lowering of pitch counts per inning and game over the course of a season when he mixed his CB in with the right count and batter. The CB is a pitch that is supposed to induce a swing as it is harder to control for stikes. I am not sure what the stats are but generally- the more batters swing the lower the overall pitch counts because of the increased chances of the batter getting closer to an out or putting the ball in play to be put out.

Perhaps this with son was just an anomaly but his throwing the CB not only drew more swings on that pitch, they also swung more at the FB hoping to hit it instead of getting the CB. He had a lot of complete games back then in the 50-70 pitch count range for the entire game compared with before throwing the CB in games he was at around 70-100+ for the same innings per game.

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Originally posted by redbird5:I found the opposite when my team was coming up. We competed at the highest level and against the best teams with only fastball and changeup through 13U. We were a perennial contender at AAU Nationals and Battle in the South. We never threw CBs.

Different experiences I guess. We've never done much AAU, it's died out here in Central VA. We've been to USSSA NIT's, World Series etc...that's just my experience with what we've played.

It's funny this came up. Last night in my son's JV game, against our weakest opponent, one of the other 8th graders came into pitch. He doesn't have a breaking pitch. The starting pitcher had a good CU and a good hook. After watching two of their players go down looking then another one go down swinging on a good 2 strike hook, you could hear the players telling hitters behind in the count "Watch for the curve." The kid ate them up with FB's.

So the 8th grader comes in. Threw well. But they picked up on that he didn't have a CB. They hit him hard. In fact I heard one of their kids say "he doesn't have a curve..."

I'm not saying it's always true. And I teach my guys a CU as well. It's arguably the hardest pitch to master, in my lowly opinion. (Not counting the knuckle ball...LOL).

Just saying that has been my experience. The other benefit to showing a CB (not necessarily throwing it a lot) is the hitter and the other team KNOWS you have it, and if it's a good hook, they can get fixated on it and think about it. Again, just my experience from pitching and coaching.

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Our kids threw 10 changeups every practice after long tossing. I taught them how to throw CBs in the bullpen but we didn't throw them in the game until they were 14. I just didn't feel comfortable risking their future to win a game. We kept the same core of 10-11 kids from 8U-14U, adding 2-3 kids each year. Of those 10, all were on varsity as sophs.

We're 14U...going into 15U shortly. I would never "risk" a kid's future to win a game. That does bother me A LOT. Sure there are a lot of coaches out there overusing kids and hurting arms...but just because someone teaches a kid how to correctly throw a CB, doesn't mean they are putting anyone at risk. My kids are on pitch limitations. Personally I don’t enforce a strict pitch count rule on my guys, since every one of them is different. Different physical maturity levels, different deliveries, different intensity levels depending on their situation. I simply keep an eye of each pitcher, as I know what they start to do when they get tired.

And maybe I took you wrong, but it did come off a bit "holier than thou". If I took it wrong, I apologize, it is the internet. Especially the comment about 10 of your guys making V as Sophs. Honestly, I would be very surprised if all my current players weren't playing V at their respective schools by their Soph year. Three of my 9th graders play V (with actual playing time) most going back and forth when schedule permits. All my other guys except for 1 8th grader start on their respective JV teams. The one who doesn't start...well let's just leave it as it's not an ability issue.

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What I noticed was that we had better command of the FB than most teams. We had above average velocity. We had other methods of confusing hitters rather than a CB.

Did I mention that the only times we played our natural age group is when we went to the bigger tournaments?

On a separate note, we never bunted, except for basehits. I wanted them to learn to hit in all counts and situations (especially hitting behind the runner at 2B with 0 outs). While we practiced the bunt, we never used it. We spent more time on leads and stealing - which, coincidentally, we still hold the record at CDP for stolen bases as a team (157 in 1 week).

Again…it just sounds a little too “braggy” to me. Again, if that’s not your intention I apologize. “Most teams” really? And what is above average velocity? Did that have to do with the players you had or the coaching they received? What did you do to help increase their velocity?

Then the playing up comment. Pretty irrelevant in my opinion. Beside 13U year, the first year on the real field, 14u-16u is pretty much the same. Kids get bigger in some cases…but pretty much the same game. It’s what JV baseball as far as ages. So if a 8th grader starts on a good JV team, does that mean he’s ‘playing up’ since he plays with and against 10th graders?


You mention you never bunted, except for base hits? Then you mention you want the the kids to hit in all counts. Then why would they bunt for base hits? I don’t get it. But hey that’s just me.

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Originally posted by redbird5:
Command of the CB is not nearly as good as that of the FB. If we can throw a FB for strikes 75% of the time and the CB is thrown for 50% of the time, I'll take my chances with the FB.

I'm just curious. Are you stating that across the board, pitchers have less "command" of a breaking ball than they do a FB?

ctandc,

My post was meant as ANYTHING BUT a holier than thou. I'm just saying there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. I don't believe a kid needs a CB to be effective. We played at the highest levels of travel ball and won without it. I mentioned the success of my kids and our team to help qualify what I said. Had I not done so, I'm sure there would have been questions about the level of success.

The core group of kids were not that good at 8U and 9U. I didn't have the best players, but they became the best players through hard work. My kids have moved on to HS and have become very effective without having to throw a CB when they were younger.

Yes, we had more command than most teams. Our #7 pitcher had better command than their #2 or #3. It was a distinct advantage we had. As for velocity, above average is above average for their age. I didn't use a radar gun so I can't tell you velocities. I can't really expound upon that any more.

Playing up...we played up every year. As 10U, we were playing 11U (and 12U at times). At 15U, we played 90% of our games against 17U showcase teams. At 14U-16U is where I have seen the biggest difference. Against 17U's, we weer regularly facing guys throwing mid-upper 80's. We only had a couple of kids touching low 80's. That is a HUGE difference.

As for bunting...bunting for a basehit was only done by 2 LHH's. I always gave them that option because it was a weapon they could use as they got older. When I said I wanted them to hit in all counts, I should have clarified it. With a runner on 2B, we would work on trying to hit behind the hitter or steal 3B. When I watch younger kids play now, there is a LOT of bunting. I don't see how that helps a kid get better.

If you are trying to pick a fight, I'm not interested. I offered my opinion based on my experiences, which have worked out pretty good so far. Quite a few of my guys are talking to ACC and SEC schools as juniors. (That last sentence IS bragging)

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Originally posted by ctandc:

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Command of the CB is not nearly as good as that of the FB. If we can throw a FB for strikes 75% of the time and the CB is thrown for 50% of the time, I'll take my chances with the FB.

I'm just curious. Are you stating that across the board, pitchers have less "command" of a breaking ball than they do a FB?

Generally, yes. A CB is harder to throw for a strike than a FB, especially for a kid.

I think generally it is easier to command the location of the fastball. As for throwing strikes and not necessarily to command location so much, a CB can be thrown for a high percentage to induce a strike in the right count. A CB thrown with a two strike count will almost always induce a swing if it starts out looking like it is anywhere close to the strike zone. It could end up in the dirt and the batter stiil swings. It just has to look good initially.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
ctandc,

My post was meant as ANYTHING BUT a holier than thou. I'm just saying there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. I don't believe a kid needs a CB to be effective. We played at the highest levels of travel ball and won without it. I mentioned the success of my kids and our team to help qualify what I said. Had I not done so, I'm sure there would have been questions about the level of success.

The core group of kids were not that good at 8U and 9U. I didn't have the best players, but they became the best players through hard work. My kids have moved on to HS and have become very effective without having to throw a CB when they were younger.

Yes, we had more command than most teams. Our #7 pitcher had better command than their #2 or #3. It was a distinct advantage we had. As for velocity, above average is above average for their age. I didn't use a radar gun so I can't tell you velocities. I can't really expound upon that any more.

Playing up...we played up every year. As 10U, we were playing 11U (and 12U at times). At 15U, we played 90% of our games against 17U showcase teams. At 14U-16U is where I have seen the biggest difference. Against 17U's, we weer regularly facing guys throwing mid-upper 80's. We only had a couple of kids touching low 80's. That is a HUGE difference.

As for bunting...bunting for a basehit was only done by 2 LHH's. I always gave them that option because it was a weapon they could use as they got older. When I said I wanted them to hit in all counts, I should have clarified it. With a runner on 2B, we would work on trying to hit behind the hitter or steal 3B. When I watch younger kids play now, there is a LOT of bunting. I don't see how that helps a kid get better.

If you are trying to pick a fight, I'm not interested. I offered my opinion based on my experiences, which have worked out pretty good so far. Quite a few of my guys are talking to ACC and SEC schools as juniors. (That last sentence IS bragging)

Wasn't trying to pick a fight not at all. One of those mornings. IF I came off like an A$% I apologize.