2 Questions about Hitting

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:

quote:

So, as you move your hands forward....by pulling the knob with your lower arm

Who said this was "how" to pull the knob...

Um...your buddy Tony Gwynn said it......

"by pulling the knob with the lower arm."

You know, the one you said you really liked his comment/description of what Bonds is doing.

Sounds like maybe you don't like what he's saying.

Which is it.....Flip........or Flop?

quote:

Originally posted by WillieBobo:


By pulling with the lower hand, the upper hand becomes the fulcrum initially.

hogwash

quote:

Once the bat is in motion, the fulcrum then becomes the body.

that may be the goal but you don't get there by "pulling on the knob with the lower hand"

quote:

Hitters who rely solely on the wrists as the secondary fulcrum are usually high average, good contact hitters.

no, hitters that do this are playing s****r.

quote:

Seeing that you are in the Mid West, I ask if you ever used an ax or mall to split fire wood. If you have, you understand the double fulcrum.

totally unrelated to hitting. First, you are under no time pressure. Second, it still remains.....maybe you need a definition of angular displacement.....the barrel will not arc or angularly displace while the hands are moving forward, independently.

I have a simple question-- how come all the top MLB hitters dont hit in the manner that Linear says is the only way?

I just don't understand it--if his way is the only way why isn't he a MLB instructor with loads of videos and instruction books on the net?

Am I missing something here!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

Am I missing something here!!!!

You got this part right.

linear-

the knob needs to be pulled with the lead arm in a way that does NOT move the hands forward/disconnect.what is so difficult for you to understand about that ?

Tom

He understands what he wants to and nothing else

Hitting is about generating speed of the bat head and making contact with the target.

With the initial pull downward of the bat, the upper hand remains slightly firm and becomes the fulcrum causing the bat to move in the opposite direction of the force applied (the swing).

The upper hand (arm ) in the grip is just guiding the bat in its flight along with the lower pulling hand after the primary fulcrum effect.

There is bat head speed produced by the lever effect greater than that which can be produced by simply swinging the bat.

The increased speed of the weight of the bat head making contact with the target (ball) creates a greater impact causing greater energy to be released in the contact.

Hitters who use the wrists as the secondary fulcrum have historically been called 'slap hitters'. They usually lead the league in base hits and doubles.

Hitters who can keep their hands in and generate greater speed on the bat head (without effort at this point) are known as power hitters.

Same principle applies in generating the speed of the club head in golf.

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
linear-

the knob needs to be pulled with the lead arm in a way that does NOT move the hands forward/disconnect.what is so difficult for you to understand about that ?

If it is being pulled by the lead arm in such a way that does not move the hands......then the arm isn't doing the pulling. Very simple.

I bet the shoulder is doing the work. And, I bet the shoulder is being turned by the center.

Wille, eloquently stated.

Coachric

Willie's top hand description is muchlike the Mankin "oar lock" analogy.

My "thinking" following the overall Epstein model is that as the uncoking of the bat progresses.accelerating primarily by lead arm knob pulling (without push/disconecting hands) the primary role of the back arm/top hand is to stay with the back shoulder and assist in setting the up/down plane of the swing/adjusting for up/down by how more/less upright the axis of rotation gets before the bathead fires. The top hand can stay back and provide oar lock resistance to work with the lead arm as this happens.

quote:

Most children, if given the right weight bat, will use a very near perfect 'swing'.

Not so, at all.......A child will reach with his hands and arms to get the bat around to the ball......So will all hitters until they train their body not to do this......Problem is, 99.9% of all hitters will never be aware there is a different and better way to swing......

Bluedog,

In 1976 - 30 full years ago - every single one of the starting nine on my team did not swing the bat the way you just described. Every single one of them used their "center" (as you call it) - as the foundation for their swing.

All 9 of them. 30 years ago.

Bluedog,

Heres the problem. When you are presented with facts you dont agree with - you deny those facts exist.

Your "discussions" would carry alot more weight - IMO - if you practiced what you preach.

Unfortunately - you dont do that. Your mind is shut closed. A steel trap - engraved with your theory and only your theory - (with a pinch of marketing influence thrown in - LOL)

Have improvements in mechanics been identified over the years? Absolutely.
Did every young player in high school or college "swing with their arms" over the last 30 years - nonsense.

Pure unadulterated nonsense. IMO.

Bob Nadal was teaching the use of your "center" - 30 years ago. As I am sure many others were.

You need to face the facts - not deny them.
Only then can you truly learn - grasshopper. LOL

Game, there were teachers in the past who realized the importance of athletes using their center.........No doubt about it......That is an undeniable fact.......

Doesn't change the fact that 99.9% of amateur hitters swing with their hands and arms, though....They always have and still do......You can use your center and swing with your hands and arms.....Heck, Swingbuster and Tom advocate doing just that.......

The real problem is, you don't understand swing technique.......

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Bluedog,

In 1976 - 30 full years ago - every single one of the starting nine on my team did not swing the bat the way you just described. Every single one of them used their "center" (as you call it) - as the foundation for their swing.

All 9 of them. 30 years ago.

And the point is 30 years later someone has finally come very close to defining what the f they were doing.

And, it came from someone outside of baseball.

Very revealing facts.

Truthfully - we didnt worry about whether Coach Nadal was close to defining anything.

We were just happy to have his coaching - apply his teaching - and hit the **** out the ball.

What do you think I mean?

quote:

Also, it sounds like you feel that kids don't use anything but their hands and arms.

Perhaps, you should explain what you mean by this?.......You are adding words to what I said.....

Bluedog,

I dont think I ever saw you on the field in 1976 - at any of the venues where the team played that spring and summer. Or 1975 for that matter.
So your 99.9% thing is nonsense.

Being polite young chaps though - we sure as heck would have invited you over to North Rockland for a little "dust-up".
After the game - you would have been better able to reevaluate - and redefine.

LOL

But, the single most determining factor is the players willingness to use trial and error. Try this. Try that. Rule this in. Rule this out. Practice, fail, pick yourself up, practice, get a hit, fail, fail, fail, pick yourself up, t work, soft toss, bp, bp, bp, trial and error over and over and over.

Linear...based on what is written in their books; that is exactly how it happened. Bull sessions with other players.

I shot worse golf round of 10 years Sunday....had club outside at top all day and could not stop it

Stopped a friend, went to range and in five swings, being my eyes from behind, he fixed it where I could not see it as I swung. I knew from watching ball what I was doing but I could not fix it without some help

Slump to repair and do it again. Failure and success cycles and what you file away in your mind. Coaching is similar too

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
If it is being pulled by the lead arm in such a way that does not move the hands......then the arm isn't doing the pulling. Very simple.

I bet the shoulder is doing the work. And, I bet the shoulder is being turned by the center.

The shoulder can not be doing the work in the high level swing. This is the point. The torso needs to be loading/twisting with a final quick twist that reverses efficiently. This twist cannnot be interrupted as it works up to drive a well connected shoulder link.At the same time the arm action (which is not the same as scap action/where back scap needs to continue load/pinch - clips of Aaron from back are good at seeing this ongoing scap pinch while lots of uncoking is happening) is creating the last quick stretch and controlling the timing with finer control by working the arms out of plane/making plane transition.

This is not the way an engineer would typically design a repeating swing,but it is a more accurate description of what high level players are actually/in reality doing.

This is an important thing LAu tries to get across by talking about pulling the knob with the arm NOT the shoulders. Shoulder link has to wait for trunk to untwist.Mankin makes same point.

quote:

Originally said by PGStaff:
A couple questions... Not meant to create an argument, but it probably will.

Well, you hit that nail squarely on the head, didn't you!

Itsinthegame, you don't want a "dustup" with me......That's something you want no part of......

And, you saying something someone else says is nonsense is like Ted Kennedy questioning a Supreme Court nominee on their morals......

BB,

I'm really not trying to get between you and Bluedog or nothing but that was hilarious-LOL

The site you posted that is>
Shep

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Bluedog's watering hole


Is the chow any good at this place.

I think Blue Dog is up for an avatar change. If I had a place named after me I'd use it.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Itsinthegame, you don't want a "dustup" with me......That's something you want no part of......

And, you saying something someone else says is nonsense is like Ted Kennedy questioning a Supreme Court nominee on their morals......

Bluedog,

LOL

Blah,blah,blah.

Talk baseball. If you are able. So far, you have proven you cant.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Bluedog's watering hole


Is the chow any good at this place.

I think Blue Dog is up for an avatar change. If I had a place named after me I'd use it.

I am a little slow at times, and just realized that you do and you do.

But I did......and it doesn't work anymore.

Linear,

That last post is like an algebraic equation.

A quadratic algebraic equation at that-LOL

No pun just fun,
Shep

My wife told me:

People who can't do...teach;
People who can't teach...ump;
People who can't ump...become TV analysts;
People who can't become TV analysts...sit on the sofa, watch TV and critique all the above.

I'm ashamed to tell you where I fit...now, where's my remote?

I think that the reason why most ML players have simular mechanics is some senses is because they have all have the experiance since playing the game forever, and they now have by trial and error, adjusted their mechanics to best work for them. And some basic mechanics work for nearly everyone...

One of the original 2 questions in this thread had to do with vision. Just as in most threads regarding hitting, no matter what the question, it gets off track and the same arguments are brought up about swing mechanics.

Back to vision…. Not just the 20-20 type but tracking and other important things pertaining to vision. There have been several discussions about the head and eyes. I’ve heard everything from keeping still and tracking, to the head should move, to everything in between. I’ve heard vision is important and vision is not important.

Anyway, I checked the site that someone recommended in a different thread. I’ve seen these before on youth coaching site. If you look at all the clips of ML hitters you will see some with forward and downward head/eye movement. You will see Bagwell who actually finishes with his eyes farther back than where they started. Magwire and Bonds who move very little (if any) forward. But the one thing fairly consistent in all the clips is the start position and the position at contact of the head! Would this consistency among great hitters mean anything? Do all great hitters turn their head slightly backwards while everything else is going forward? Or do great hitters move their head and eyes the direction of their swing?

For years I’ve been teaching hitters to track. Has new found evidence proved this to be unimportant? And yes, I understand the half way to the plate theory as far as decision making goes. But reacting to that exact millisecond that the ball is exactly half way (less than 30 feet) on a 95 mph fastball is not something that can be taught… is it? So wouldn’t it require at least an attempt to track the ball a longer distance than half way? Or as long as possible?

My answer is two-fold. Hitting a baseball does have a base genetic pre-dispostion. Certainly, some have the "knack" from the get-go while others can practice "til the cows come home" and work with the most talented coaches, but will never excel!

The second key element is practice. Almost every very gifted hitter, upon investigation, seems to have had access to a batting cage or seized upon every opportunity to take swings AND OR had an involved father/dad(recent ex: Piazza, McCann, Wright, Uptons). Again I will refer to the findings in the book "Outliers" that I suggest every parent read, as further evidence that practice (10,000 repetions bench mark)in any successful endeavor (Bill Gates-computers, Paul McCartney-music, exceptional athletes in any sport, etc.), played a huge part.

I don't mean to diminish the impact of great coaching, by the above, certainly as you rise it assists the athlete to be the best he can be. I don't think you can question the importance of vision to hitting; the aspects of recognition and perception are crucial (ask McCann with his recent problems).

I believe that athletes are born with skills that can not be taught. A quick smooth swing and the ability to track a ball or read a pitch. A good coach can get the best out of an individual, but the talent has got to be there, it can't be taught.

Teaching a player to deal with failure and preparing a player for the challanges that he has yet to face are the qualities that I look for in good coaching and good trainers.

But I am a believer that the best hitters are born not made, the ones that work and develop those skills through constant practice and training become the great hitters we love to watch.

My kid one of those...great hitter.

What I have done is spent the years avoiding the hitting guru's. Don't fix what not broke.

In a building full of 15 year old hitters, he gets in the cage and everyone comes to watch because of the sound. Every coach, every where he's been, has tried to change him, he just nods and says OK.

In my opinion the good MLB hitters are the best today at avoiding the hitting instructors. *ie Holliday - Mcguire. attempted change of high leg kick*


Mike Epstein in my opinion is the best, he recognizes and promotes a natural swing, and leaves you alone more than any others, he's not one the many, my way or the Hi way... gurus.

The Myth of Hitting Coaches

"Hitters are BORN with the natural swing; coaches take it away."

http://www.mikeepsteinhitting....534_param_detail=183

Teams or statisticians would want the eye test scores in order to look for a commonality among the better hitters. If a common score is found for the better hitters, teams will use that as part of their search criteria when signing prospects or draft choices.

The better hitters are the naturals. They have hand eye coordination that cannot truly be taught.

The best batting instructors will take the existing mechanics that obviously work and at best fine tune them to catch up with faster pitching at the higher levels.

The hitting guru will be able to teach the batter how to read the spin on the ball when it leaves the pitcher's hand. This is a process that requires many repetitions to see the spin, recognize that spin and adjust the swing for that pitch.

It was much easier to learn these things when repetitions were free as kids were able to just go out and play ball.

quote:

The Myth of Hitting Coaches

Showme ... good article, thanks for posting! My son, always one of the best on his teams, flourished after years of work with an "Epstein like" Pro Coach, and relearning his "natural swing."

So many old wives tales here.

Hitting is technique, period.

You, too, can be a "natural" hitter.

From my hitting instructions hahaha jk!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
A couple questions… Not meant to create an argument, but it probably will.

1 – What is the major reason MLB Scouting Departments test vision?

2 – Where did all these Major League hitters learn how to hit? I understand the value in studying the video of MLB stars to figure out what they do. I understand the value in finding those things that nearly all of them do the same way. Now, if all the coaching is so bad, where did these ML hitters pick it up… Who taught them? Or do they all do these things naturally in spite of all the bad coaching.

It just seems confusing that we study Major League hitters to learn more about what they have in common, maybe we should find out how they learned it. After all, we can be fairly certain that they all didn’t have the same coaches. There has been many great hitters… Does that mean there have been many great hitting coaches.

I would be interested in hearing opinions… I have my own opinion, but it has more to do with the ability to learn than the ability to teach.

I saw this post updated and started reading it as though it was a current thread! I marveled at how those oldtimers had come out of the woodwork to hypothesize the science of hitting! I was on the third page before I realized it was a thread from 2006! LOL! It was an oldie but a goodie though!