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170 replies

5A Region I Area Round

wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
But, the prinicipal is the same--the 'weaker' team is always able to dictate the format to the 'stronger' team, assuming their coach is lucky on a coin flip.

I do agree with this, and I think this is the main reason the current system is poorly concieved. Still sticking with my point about the "unknown gauntlet", but this isn't really the best way to set up a baseball playoff. Maybe if the 1-game vs. 3-game was a random draw, so the weaker team doesn't get to decide ?

quote:
Originally posted by The Voice of Reason:
Look at this year's play-offs in 5A Round 1. A substantial number of 3 game series have been won by the team that lost the first game. Those winners are advancing, while other teams that lost a coin flip did not get the same opportunity to advance. I repeat--something about that is not right.

I think this point is flawed, though. This makes the assumption that a coach facing a 3 game series will start the same pitcher and hitting line-up for game 1 that he would for a 1 game playoff. Most coaches enter 3-game series knowing that game 2 is most crucial, and will probably consider(consider at least) his best guess of who the other coach intends to start. No good coach would try to throw away game 1, just might play it different. So I don't think you can go look at the first game of a 3 game series and project backward to the real 1-game winner.
Last edited by wraggArm
I ironhorse5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by The Beast:
You people crack me up.
If you are the so called better team, then go out and prove it in a one game, 2 out of 3, 3 out of 5, 4 out of 7, 5 out of 8, or a game of rock, paper, scissors. If your the best it will show up. When it comes to the playoffs it don't matter if your a one or a four or a two or a three. THE better team finds a way to win.
Give me a break.


This is asinine. So Every World Series is a sweep? Or every championship series in every sport is a sweep? There have been plenty of series where there was a clear "better team" and that team dropped at least one game in the series.
D DFWFan10+ posts
Now we are discussing a good topic. Has nothing to do with individual teams or players, but rather the reform of a flawed system. Keep it coming!
quote:
Originally posted by The Voice of Reason:
The "best" team may or may not win a one game series, and may or may not even win a best of three series. But, that's not really the problem. The real problem with the current system is that it puts a 4th place team on exactly the same footing as a District winner. With this system, a 4th place team that wins a coin toss can dictate to a District winner the format of the play-off. Honestly, something about that is not right.

4th place usually takes about a .500 record, which basically means having one good pitcher during the District season. District champion, however, requires a deeper and more solid all-around team. Why is a team that excels in District play put on exactly the same footage as a team that manages to scrape by?

Now, as the teams advance in the play-offs, this disparity diminishes, since all teams have proved themselves by winning a play-off. But, the prinicipal is the same--the 'weaker' team is always able to dictate the format to the 'stronger' team, assuming their coach is lucky on a coin flip.

I may have this wrong, but as I recall, PW did not lose a game until the play-offs during their State Championship season. Didn't they lose the first game of a 3 game series during that run? Had their opponent opted for a one game play-off, and won the flip, PW wouldn't have been Champs that year--does that mean that they really were not "better."

Look at this year's play-offs in 5A Round 1. A substantial number of 3 game series have been won by the team that lost the first game. Those winners are advancing, while other teams that lost a coin flip did not get the same opportunity to advance. I repeat--something about that is not right.

As everyone who frequents this Board knows, Baseball turns so much on the pitchers' performance in a given game, what breaks occur, the bounce of the ball, etc. I suspect that the Royals will beat the Yankees in a given game this year--does anyone really think that makes them the better team? Now, I
understand that the State Champion is not crowned the "best team," but a system for reaching the State Champion which actually works against the best team is not a good one, IMHO.
Last edited by DFWFan
I ironhorse5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by The Beast:
Hey ironpony
We are talking high school. Not pros. Who said anything about a sweep if you take two out of three, you could of lost one of them.
Giddyup.

My point, Einstein, is that the better team is perfectly capable of losing one game. That would be even more true in HS than the pros. Hence a 1-game series is BS, as is your theory.
TB The Beast1,000+ posts
quote:
My point, Einstein, is that the better team is perfectly capable of losing one game. That would be even more true in HS than the pros. Hence a 1-game series is BS, as is your theory.

My point, ironpony, The better team moves on to the next round regardless of the series.
A one game may be BS, but the so called better team needs to get their s**t together and prove it. If they can't win a one game how in the H*ll are they going to win in Round Rock.
Last edited by The Beast
txbball14txbball14100+ posts
I know if we lose this weekend then I am going to suggest that we simply flip for wins & losses too...my pitching can handle a coin flip.

Big Grin


Seriously though, I think most of the points are valid and there are times when I would want a three gamer and when I would want a one gamer (like this weekend). A series will usually bring out the better team, but not always.
Out in LFOut in LF500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by The Beast:
You people crack me up.
If you are the so called better team, then go out and prove it in a one game, 2 out of 3, 3 out of 5, 4 out of 7, 5 out of 8, or a game of rock, paper, scissors. If your the best it will show up. When it comes to the playoffs it don't matter if your a one or a four or a two or a three. THE better team finds a way to win.
Give me a break.


Well said, Beast. It all boils down to one Champion and 2nd Place is the first loser!
DillonDillon100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by The Beast:
You people crack me up.
If you are the so called better team, then go out and prove it in a one game, 2 out of 3, 3 out of 5, 4 out of 7, 5 out of 8, or a game of rock, paper, scissors. If your the best it will show up. When it comes to the playoffs it don't matter if your a one or a four or a two or a three. THE better team finds a way to win.
Give me a break.


You ARE the voice of reason!
D DFWFan10+ posts
This is not about who is better. This is about the system. Coaches, AD's and sometimes concerned administrators can orchestrate changes. All of those types out there... help this system get fixed.
quote:
Originally postedby Dillon:
quote:
Originally posted by The Beast:
You people crack me up.
If you are the so called better team, then go out and prove it in a one game, 2 out of 3, 3 out of 5, 4 out of 7, 5 out of 8, or a game of rock, paper, scissors. If your the best it will show up. When it comes to the playoffs it don't matter if your a one or a four or a two or a three. THE better team finds a way to win.
Give me a break.


You ARE the voice of reason!
N NTXDAD10+ posts
If a one game series is such a good model, why is it Farmington, Perfect Games and AABC all use a multi-loss format to determine a winner (and Beast, these are at the high school level players that are competing)?

In addition, the College Regionals, Super Regionals and the College World Series is also a multi-game elimination format. They are not a one game series to determine the better team. They are a multi-loss format to determine an ultimate winner.

While I realize there can't be a high school "double" elimination tournament with all teams participating, there can be a double elimination format used in a 2 of 3 format. The first team to lose 2 goes home.

One game series never has and never will determine the true champion. IMHO
U UpperDeck10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by HRKB:
quote:
Originally posted by UpperDeck:
Jesuit 10
Southlake 5


Is that a prediction? They don't play until Thursday.


Sorry about that. I posted that from my phone in the stands.

Southlake scored 4 runs in the bottom of the 7th. Otherwise, Freimuth pitched a 2 hitter through 6 innings. An excellent outing for Clayton.

It should be a great game Friday night when SL visits Jesuit with a 4:30 start time. Can we keep the rain away?
TV The Voice of Reason10+ posts
________________________________________________________________________
It's the same for everyone. Go out and win, or stay home next week.
________________________________________________________________________

But, it isn't the same for everyone. Some teams get to play a 3 game series, some play a one game series.

And, even if it were the same, why should it be? Whay should a District winner get put on exactly the same footing as a 4th place team? Why should a team with only one decent pitcher get to dictate to a stronger team what the format should be? Particularly when other play-offs throughout the state are using a different format.
TV The Voice of Reason10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by The Beast:
You people crack me up.
If you are the so called better team, then go out and prove it in a one game, 2 out of 3, 3 out of 5, 4 out of 7, 5 out of 8, or a game of rock, paper, scissors. If your the best it will show up. When it comes to the playoffs it don't matter if your a one or a four or a two or a three. THE better team finds a way to win.
Give me a break.


If you truly believe this, then explain how the Yankees ever lose a game. The "better team finds a way to win" sounds great, but in real life, it doesn't always happen that way, particularly in baseball. Or, I suppose that you have never won with a weaker team, or ever lost with a stronger one.
txbball14txbball14100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by The Voice of Reason:
________________________________________________________________________
It's the same for everyone. Go out and win, or stay home next week.
________________________________________________________________________

But, it isn't the same for everyone. Some teams get to play a 3 game series, some play a one game series.

And, even if it were the same, why should it be? Whay should a District winner get put on exactly the same footing as a 4th place team? Why should a team with only one decent pitcher get to dictate to a stronger team what the format should be? Particularly when other play-offs throughout the state are using a different format.


This is why only 3 teams should get in. The district champ should be rewarded with a first round bye. Yes, they get to play the 4th place team, but the true reward should be a series off.

Just my opinion.
O Outsider100+ posts
Its the same for both teams playing.

Again, the UIL has to take into consideration the smaller districts with less money that would have drive several hundred miles to play. Not everyone goes to a 4A or 5A school in the area. They HAVE to leave that option open. And who makes up the rules that the UIL goes by? The UIL Legislative Council, which is made up with.......... superintendents. Its their budgets.

In a perfect world where everyone is equal, yes, a 3 game series would be ideal. Last time I checked it was far from perfect.

As far as the 3 team or 4 team thing making the playoffs. Its about increased student athlete particitipation. It use to only be the district champion went to the playoffs. Football and basketball playoffs expanding meant 2 things: expanded participation, and more money for the UIL. They take 15% of all varsity football and basketball gates. Follow the $$$$.
M Marcos10+ posts
Update: Well, amazingly enough, both teams have decided to continue play this evening now that the bad weather has come and gone. Action is expected to resume at 10:10 p.m.

Top of second (continued): . It's 10:22 p.m. and Zak Adams has taken the mound for Flower Mound, replacing starter Steven Bruce. Billy McKinney digs back into the batter's box he left almost two hours ago.

PW up 5-0
D DFWFan10+ posts
If that is the case... then let every series be a one game accross the board and let it be at higher seeds home for the first 3-4 rounds until it goes neutral. Another poster is right on this.....the district champ should get every conceivable advantage. No flip to equalize anything acceptable. Else the district champ has to deal with a form of "mental loss" that is not fair at all to them. There is absolutely zero advantage to winning district in the current format.
quote:
Originally posted by Outsider:
Its the same for both teams playing.

Again, the UIL has to take into consideration the smaller districts with less money that would have drive several hundred miles to play. Not everyone goes to a 4A or 5A school in the area. They HAVE to leave that option open. And who makes up the rules that the UIL goes by? The UIL Legislative Council, which is made up with.......... superintendents. Its their budgets.

In a perfect world where everyone is equal, yes, a 3 game series would be ideal. Last time I checked it was far from perfect.

As far as the 3 team or 4 team thing making the playoffs. Its about increased student athlete particitipation. It use to only be the district champion went to the playoffs. Football and basketball playoffs expanding meant 2 things: expanded participation, and more money for the UIL. They take 15% of all varsity football and basketball gates. Follow the $$$$.
Last edited by DFWFan
O Outsider100+ posts
There is no right answer. There is always going to be an argument made that will support what is happening. Why should a district champion of a really, really, realllly bad district that has sub .500 record have an advantage of the 2nd place team of the toughest district in the state that has a record of 20-3? You may answer because they're dist champ. This is like arguing about the best way to determine the NCAA football champions.

About theonly way that you can match this up is to only have the district champs advance to the playoffs.

High school sports are not based upon giving the "better" team any type of advantage. They try to even the fields as much as possible, but we all know that some fields are more level than others. The organization of HS sports in Texas are among the best in the country. Arguably the best.
TV The Voice of Reason10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Papa Smurf:
So did the better team win last night?


I don't know if PW is better than FM or not. I just know that the PW coach had his doubts-he opted for a one game play-off, and was unwilling to face FM 2 out of 3. Certainly, PW was better in that one game.

In other 2nd round series throughout the State, first game losers will get opportunities to advance--FM will not. And, in many cases, it's just because the coach of the 'better' team won a coin flip. What a way to run a tournament.
TV The Voice of Reason10+ posts
The Board seems to be dividing into the following categories on this whole question:

1) The play-offs are not about who is "better" anyway, so if the there is disparity in the play-off format, no big deal. (I wonder if those who think this would support a District Champion v. District Champion, 2nd place v 2nd place, 3rd v 3rd, etc. format in the first round. Perhaps it should be set up so that play-off teams always play the team that is closest geographically, regardless of record or district finish).

2) The best team always wins, ie. a win proves that the winner is really better. (don't know how this squares with the fact that there are many split series winners, and honestly I can't believe that there are real baseball fans on this board who really believe this anyway)

3) There should be some conformity in the play-off format, so that a) there is at least some reward for winning a district championship, and b) an individual coach is not in position to game the system to his team's advantage, even to the extent that the outcome of the play-off will sometimes depend in large degree on who wins a coin toss. (It will always happen, but a uniform system would help eliminate a 4th place team dictating the format to a District Champ, for example).

My previous posts are indicative of my position. My team is still alive and I don't have a personal interest in any of the teams affected by this situation thus far. But, I do think that the UIL should make the system uniform, with some acknowledgement of a District Championship taken into account.
FG FMHS Grad10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by wraggArm:
If the criterion for "better" is "able to win last night's game", then the data sure seems to say Jesuit is a "better" team than Flower Mound.

However, I think there may be a whole pile of shouldawouldacoulda analysis on it's way that's going to dispute this fact...


Jesuit beat Southlake and yes they were the better team yesterday in that game.

I don't doubt the coaches, players and parents at FM will go over the game between Plano West and FM but I don't think or you should not hear we were robbed or it was stolen from us out of FM. We didn't get the job done It hurts but really saying we should have or could have only makes it worse.
Last edited by FMHS Grad
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by The Voice of Reason:
If you truly believe this, then explain how the Yankees ever lose a game. The "better team finds a way to win" sounds great, but in real life, it doesn't always happen that way, particularly in baseball. Or, I suppose that you have never won with a weaker team, or ever lost with a stronger one.

Ok, so the Yankees should never be judged by a single game, because we all know they are really "better". So the next time they end up in a game 7, maybe Bud Selig should just release this statement:

"It looks like this series has come down to a single must-win game. Everyone in the universe knows that the Yankees are the best team, because they have the best roster, and they won the most games during the regular season. But due to all of the variables in a single baseball game that are beyond their control, we feel that it would be incorrect to expose the best team to the statistical hazards that may cause the best team to actually lose.
We therefore award the series to the Best Team, the Yankees."

Or maybe they should just keep playing enough games until the Yankees win +1 ?
Last edited by wraggArm
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