800 LB Gorilla in the Room - Bad or Good Call on the Utley "Slide" in NLDS

Because every major leaguer has exactly the same intent going into the bag. 

I agree with PG that Torre/MLB over reacted, which probably had a lot to do with all the commotion going on in the NY press over it. Had it been the other way around all of the NY papers and talk shows would have been saying that it was a "good hard play". From what I understand the Players Union will be showing pictures of multiple other "hard slides" that did not result in a suspension, I think they have a strong case.  

I also agree that the rule needs to be changed, or at least enforced within the language of the current rule. 

From what I read this morning the there is a good chance that Utley will play today because of the favorable match ups. That will be fun! I also hope they do not warn teams before the game and just let them play on. 

Probably like most everyone here, I have watched that video numerous times. In regular speed, slow motion, frame-by-frame and I guess I'm just seeing something different. Yes, it was a late slide. But, I see him reaching for the bag. His hand is actually over the bag when his head makes contact with Tejada's knee. That impact is what twisted their bodies and threw Utley in a strange direction past second base. He definitely would have ended up past 2nd even without the violent collision, but I think he would have touched the bag in the process of sliding (on his knees) past the bag.  Below are a couple pics I found. Please disregard the meme and the message in the 2nd pic. Its the best still shot I could find and I don't endorse the message.

It's definitely not his most egregious slide this season, as far as being out of the base path or away from the bag. The 3rd pic is from earlier this season and he has no hope of touching the bag at all, but there was no suspension. I just don't like the inconsistent message from the MLB. It's like an inconsistent strike zone. If you don't know the rules, then it's hard to play the game.

Has anyone here ever seen a slide into 2nd base declared illegal or interference in MLB?  Is there even a precedent for this?

I like it.  It is true.  You can probably find 100 pictures of a BR breaking up the DP in which the runner is WAY further from the base than Utley was.  It was a freak accident on a play that happens many, many times during the regular season that you never even hear about.

Calling this a "slide into second base" seems like a stretch to me.   It was hardly a slide.  And it certainly wasn't "into second base."    Look at how his  body touches  the fielder before making contact with the ground even and after he is almost completely past the bag.  This was an attempt to body tackle the fielder.  Period.  

He wasn't going into 2nd base?  Here's a picture directly down the 1st base line.  He is certainly going into 2nd base...

I really don't understand all the outrage.  I've said it before, I'll say it again - EVERY player is taught to break up the DP from the time he starts playing baseball.  How can you say that he should be called out because he was trying to "take out" the SS???  It's what EVERY runner does in this situation.  And there are plays in which the runner was WAY, WAY further away from the base than Utley was here.  Look at the 3rd picture in kandkfunk's post above.  Utley isn't anywhere near the bag, yet no one made a stink about it.

Maybe there needs to be a rule change.  Maybe some people feel that he shouldn't have gone in that hard.  But, he did not violate any rule.  He just didn't.  I think if you want to argue about this play, argue that the rules need to be changed.  Not that what Utley did was wrong.  In my opinion, if a player has a problem with this play, they are a hypocrite.  I guarantee EVERY MLB player has gone into 2nd trying to take out the MI to break up the DP.  It is a part of baseball.  

By the same token, you could say this was an attempt to nail the runner with an ill timed spinning back round kick. Perhaps Tejada anticipated that Utley would attempt to take him out, and sought to teach him a lesson with his previously unknown ninja skills.  

I thought Utley took a pretty good hit to the head in that collision. I was actually surprised that no trainer looked at him to check for a concussion.

http://cdn.barstoolsports.com/...2/dwright.jpg?6a89d0

Apparently Utley has been on both sides of this 

Haven't read the posts - but for me it's simple: Change the rule.

Until that happens, let 'em play.

And if they change the rule, get rid of the neighborhood play.

Pedro Martinez talking about it today. His take is Tejada should have never turned his back to Utley because as nice as he is off the field he is ruthless on the field.  He personally didn't like the play. He more or less agreed he was out to tackle him.  Pedro loves the young kids, I can see why he thought it was unnecessary.

Also, the suspension was just a move to keep Utely off the field while in NY.  He is planning on retiring, so he will never see s suspension.  Oyt more or less was sending a message to everyone.

I have to agree with that point.

Hell of a way for Utley to slide tackle his way into notoriety, er...retirement.

This is funny and simple minded, Utley is a class act and has been for years. If baseball had more like him the game would be a better sport. Quite possibly my favorite player ever. 

Smart, hustle, heady he played the game right 

Yes. Like the time he scored from second on a groundout to the pitcher. It's about halfway into this 2-minute clip: www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjoyK5_Ae48

Has been 2019Son's favorite player.

The fake throw to first and get the out at home in game 5 of the 08 series....but honestly it was just the day to day activities that made him great....oh and the world f***ing champions line that was so honest not even grandmothers were upset with him. Love Chase

MLB + NYPD = suspension umpires vs MLB

Objective is to reduce problems. Enjoy the game.

12 of our former Area Code and Goodwill Series alumni are playing in this game.

Bob

It was a legal slide. He could reach the base. He wasn't out of the baseline. A MLB base runner's responsibility is to take out (within the rules) a middle infielder attempting to turn two. Utley isn't a dirty player. He's a hard nose player. He's old school like most fans wish players would be.

In football there's good reason why a Chop Block gets a heavy penalty.  The same reasoning for the same kind of move should be applied to "taking out a middle infielder".

So you are arguing for a rules change...fair enough but that is a conversation for the winter, next year, the rules committee or whatever. It doesn't change this play or if it was legal.

I'm pretty sure I'm not simple-minded; I'm pretty sure you were being pejorative; and I'm pretty sure you read far too much into my post, which had nothing to do with his preceding career. As for him being your favorite player ever, yes, that is clear. You might as well be his publicist on this thread. But hey, clearly, not everyone thinks as highly of Utley as you do = duh.

Okay as OP, I've given this some time and distance.  Read all the posts and I've changed my mind.

1) Was it a dirty play....no.  Tejada should not have turned his back. I believe this led to his injury because he didn't know where Utley was.

2) Was it a hard nosed play....yes.  Have there been worse take out slides in the history of baseball...yes.   If Tejada had not turned his back I think this injury could have been avoided or Utley would have got a face full of cowhide.

3) Did MLB overreact....certainly.  That is what they do.  They'll have time to figure it out in the off season.

4) Does there need to be a rule put in place that prevents someone sliding into a MIF past the bag.....yes.

Here's my question: in order to be a "slide" doesn't the lower body have to be on the dirt at least a little in front of the bag? Utley hit Tejada behind the bag before hitting the dirt at all. In my book that just isn't a slide. It's a hit. 

Could I "slide" into first base by taking out the first baseman, hoping to disrupt a throw home to get a runner going from second to home knowing the "slide" play is on?

Open the MLB rule book:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloa...l_baseball_rules.pdf

now search for "slide".  Tell us what you find. I think you'll find there's some verbiage about a "legal slide" at home base, but that's about it. Without a definition or rule, an umpire would be hard pressed to create his own. Thus he goes with the accepted practices.

I believe you have described the "accepted terminology" for a slide and what youth players are taught. You've also somewhat described what is found the High School Federation Rules handbook where there's quite a few points detailing what an illegal slide is.

Not sure what your "play" above references... On a ball in the infield where a play is being made at 1B and the runner slides to take out the fielder so he cannot throw home to get a runner from 2B?  That's two very speedy runners. If it was a ball to the outfield and the runner "slides" into 1B to take out the fielder - that's interference if there isn't a play being made on the runner.  You'd need to be more specific with what you're asking (and of course ask it in the umpire forum ;-)).

There is a reason youth league rule books go in great detail about sliding and also why there's always controversy whether it's a "must slide" or a "slide or avoid" rule.  If you haven't seen a youth coach acting like Billy Martin on such a play, then count yourself as "lucky" unless you like the entertainment value.  By the written rule, a player sliding into a base, without play being made on him, and the ball not in the possession of the fielder is probably one of two things - obstruction on the fielder for standing in the baseline or on the base or interference on the runner for taking out the fielder. In HS if that crash was harsh enough (at any base BTW) you can have malicious contact. That's when you get to see a HS coach act like Earl Weaver.

Interesting piece on Utley causing season-ending injury to SFG OF Gregor Blanco. Inadvertent it seemed at the time. But was it....?

http://www.mccoveychronicles.c...rkknee-gregor-blanco

Tune in tonight to Coast To Coast AM with George Noory to find out.

Once again, according to Pedro, he had a rep among players to watch out for him.

He sat the bench for two games. I guess they were afraid he would get hurt...awwwwww poor Chase.

You got a thing for Pedro, TPM?

The author wonders in his piece about the possibility of confirmation bias on his part.

I think that's the best explanation for how anyone could look at this video and see evil intent on a play in which the infielder has to a) run to second base to cover the bag, b) change direction the moment he reaches the bag because the ball is tailing back into the runner, and c) get low enough to be in position to block and field a ball that arrives off line and late while the runner is diving into him.

It strains credulity to assert that Utley "caused" the injury to Blanco. It looked to me like two guys playing hard and happening to be in the same spot at the same time, a spot Utley arrived at because the ball led him there. 

It also looked like the two players were about equally exposed to risk of injury. If that helmet had hit Utley a little lower or at a different angle, Utley could have been the one whose season had been ended. 

There's no way a non-superhuman could do everything Utley had to do on that play while also intentionally putting his knee in just the right spot that the impact would hurt the runner but not him. 

So with the Dodgers now out, does MLB quietly make this go away or do they follow the NFL's example and make a mountain out of a molehill for something that's "part of the game"...

I believe it just goes away.

Neither mountain nor molehill.....Owners change the rules to protect their assets.  If a $20M a year shortstop is out for a year, the game is damaged.  Imagine if it was a May game and Jeter was hurt.

I agree with Go44dad.  The owners have to protect their assets and I would assert the rules are not very clear on what is a slide and not a slide.  Even someone who doesn't watch baseball (my mother) noticed that he didn't slide, made no attempt to touch the bag and initiated contact past the bag.  

I see this going the same way as the Buster Posey situation at home plate a few years ago.  Some "smart guys" (not executives) will get together and modify the sliding rules at 2nd base to protect the players.  Frankly, I have no problem with it. 

There are many changes I would make if I was commissioner for a day.  This would go to the top of the list because it has to do with safety and it is something that can be avoided by simply altering the rule book language.  There is always going to be contact at 2nd base in baseball but there is a significant difference between being slide into for the purposes of breaking up a double play and being tackled on a blitz. 

As always JMO.

To my knowledge, there is no rule in MLB that you even have to slide in this situation.  The only qualifier I'm aware of is when you go into 2nd base, you have to be close enough to touch the bag.  Definition of a slide doesn't matter, because it's not even something you are required to do.  

Legal??  Yes, according to the rules...or lack of.

Dirty??  In my mind...absolutely!  Everyone has an opinion...that's mine

Rule change on the way??  I think so.

Congrats to Utley....he will now be the source behind "The Utley Rule"....lol