A fairly well written paper trying to connect certain velo development training methods with TJ. (I just found the paper and do not have any opinion.)
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Excellent paper.
Thanks for sharing Goose - good read, as well access to a few other articles
A good Piece and he also said he uses moderate amounts of weighted balls Training himself so he is no "hater" but still the Claim that the heavier balls increase ER range by destroying passive stabilizing structures is a pretty big Claim. if that indeed was true weighted balls would be very questionable (not sure if he talks about 7-8 ounce balls here or about 1 Pound plus balls).
I think you can't make that Claim without further proof, as of now it is just speculation by him.
It is speculative but not unreasonable. Heavier baseballs potentially increase ER laxity, making them a good choice for certain athletes and maybe not so much for others. Strength against an isometrically positioned dynamometer (testing IR/ER shoulder strength) can tell you a lot more than a static measurement.
I wrote an accompanying article (Mike was good enough to send an advance copy with some notes for review over the weekend) on the same topic here:
Mike has done work on both my sons after coming highly recommended from several people. He certainly has outstanding credentials and an impressive resume. In addition, I would add that I have a son currently on a weighted ball program at a throwing facility utilizing Kyle's Driveline approach. He is experiencing success and is currently pain free.
Kyle Boddy posted:It is speculative but not unreasonable. Heavier baseballs potentially increase ER laxity, making them a good choice for certain athletes and maybe not so much for others. Strength against an isometrically positioned dynamometer (testing IR/ER shoulder strength) can tell you a lot more than a static measurement.
I wrote an accompanying article (Mike was good enough to send an advance copy with some notes for review over the weekend) on the same topic here:
I did some heavy ball throwing too this offseason (did some of the drills of your free program, albeit I was too lazy to do the complete program because I Play first
) and I had a Feeling that the layback Phase is longer and smoother with the heavier ball. the arm is getting slower and deeper into ER, which maybe also causes a less hard Stretch shortening cycle and thus more relaxed muscles and deeper ER.
However if it really was passive structures being damaged I would be quite worried.
BTW did you a notice that without an adjustment the first light balls tend to go down more and the heavy balls tend to sail high? of course then you adjust but the first light balls I throw tend to bounce .
I read it. Twice. More confusion for the layman. As the gatekeeper and final arbiter of what my son does with regards to throwing. Still a no on weighted balls, yes on some long toss, yes on ASMI pitch counts and innings limit, no on ice, I don't care on running poles after games, yes on limited breaking balls, yes on limited weight lifting (once a week legs mostly), yes on bands but no longer telling him to, definitely yes on a weekly pitching coach, no to owning a radar gun (but can't help asking if someone else guns him what he threw), no to pitching in fall ball, yes to no throwing at all for a couple months in winter.
But the article, opinions and sharing are appreciated. The text was plain and simple to follow. Just not sure their is any conclusion to take away other than to pay attention to research, etc. Would like some things in absolute numbers instead of percentages. I had a dime yesterday and then found a dollar. I'm up 1000%. I'm glad people are researching the topic and publishing.
I think the main thing to take away from the article is that weighted ball work has remarkable potential to both increase velocity while decreasing injury, but, there is potential danger in simply buy weighted balls going at it. We are just starting to get a good hold on how to best use them. It's been proven for decades (though the work on this subject has been widely ignored by many in the field) that overload/underload training works. A weighted ball program should be done under the instruction of an instructor with a good track record or after careful study on the subject and methodology of their use. I think there are people doing some solid work right now and developing fantastic programs.
Go44dad posted:I read it. Twice. More confusion for the layman. As the gatekeeper and final arbiter of what my son does with regards to throwing. Still a no on weighted balls, yes on some long toss, yes on ASMI pitch counts and innings limit, no on ice, I don't care on running poles after games, yes on limited breaking balls, yes on limited weight lifting (once a week legs mostly), yes on bands but no longer telling him to, definitely yes on a weekly pitching coach, no to owning a radar gun (but can't help asking if someone else guns him what he threw), no to pitching in fall ball, yes to no throwing at all for a couple months in winter.
But the article, opinions and sharing are appreciated. The text was plain and simple to follow. Just not sure their is any conclusion to take away other than to pay attention to research, etc. Would like some things in absolute numbers instead of percentages. I had a dime yesterday and then found a dollar. I'm up 1000%. I'm glad people are researching the topic and publishing.
For perspective Go44dad, what age is your son?
14yo 2020
Go44dad posted:14yo 2020
that makes sense then and I agree
Well, I got past the first sentence, which I think is impossible to support with data, or at least needs defined parameters ("One thing is certain when it comes to baseball pitching injuries, they are rising."). There are also several conclusions that I don't agree with. However, I'm always happy to hear that more studies are being conducted. This is such a complex problem.
MidAtlanticDad posted:Well, I got past the first sentence, which I think is impossible to support with data, or at least needs defined parameters ("One thing is certain when it comes to baseball pitching injuries, they are rising."). There are also several conclusions that I don't agree with. However, I'm always happy to hear that more studies are being conducted. This is such a complex problem.
Yes. Many will continue to ignore the logic problem involved in supporting the argument that injuries are on the increase with only the evidence that surgical incidences are on the rise.
Dominik85 posted:Kyle Boddy posted:It is speculative but not unreasonable. Heavier baseballs potentially increase ER laxity, making them a good choice for certain athletes and maybe not so much for others. Strength against an isometrically positioned dynamometer (testing IR/ER shoulder strength) can tell you a lot more than a static measurement.
I wrote an accompanying article (Mike was good enough to send an advance copy with some notes for review over the weekend) on the same topic here:
I did some heavy ball throwing too this offseason (did some of the drills of your free program, albeit I was too lazy to do the complete program because I Play first
However if it really was passive structures being damaged I would be quite worried.
BTW did you a notice that without an adjustment the first light balls tend to go down more and the heavy balls tend to sail high? of course then you adjust but the first light balls I throw tend to bounce .
The "longer and smoother" portion is a great way to phrase it, same with the notes about ER. It is definitely possible that passive stiffness is being "destroyed" though the wording is a little harsh by Mike. You have to realize Mike sees mostly injured patients and has dealt with some serious crap in his time as a professional, so his viewpoint is going to be skewed (just like mine is skewed towards performance).
And yeah that is super common
It seems to me the point of what Mike wrote in this paper is what he said here:
"I believe we are overdosing on velocity programs.
We are putting a lot of faith into programs being marketed on the internet that have not been validated scientifically to be safe or effective. Again, just to be clear, there are many smart coaches on the internet with great programs. I follow many great minds and really respect what they do. But realize that:
- People are trying to implement these programs on their own without thought or a clear understanding on what is safe and effective. They are not selecting the appropriate dose.
- People are implementing the same velocity program for everyone, often on a team-wide basis, not individualizing the dose for each individual.
- People are getting greedy. Many people think if a 1 lb ball can help them gain 3 MPH, than a 2 lb ball can help them gain 6 MPH! They are overdosing.
We have a very limited understanding of the science weighted baseball, long toss, and other baseball training and velocity programs, but research is starting to come out. Below is what we currently know regarding weighted ball and long toss programs.
If you are going to start a pitching velocity training program yourself of with athletes, you MUST understand the science"
I don't see that he advocates not using any of these training methods, just that at best we all have limited understanding of the science (what little there really is of it).
Truman posted:I don't see that he advocates not using any of these training methods, just that at best we all have limited understanding of the science (what little there really is of it).
Unfortunately, I think there's still very limited understanding of pitching and arm injuries, in general. That is, why some people get injured and others don't, even under very similar conditions.
MidAtlanticDad posted:Truman posted:I don't see that he advocates not using any of these training methods, just that at best we all have limited understanding of the science (what little there really is of it).
Unfortunately, I think there's still very limited understanding of pitching and arm injuries, in general. That is, why some people get injured and others don't, even under very similar conditions.
Totally agree.
While I think we've learned a lot over the last couple decades, issues concerning the human body is so very complex, particularly when looking at the differences from one body to the next. We can see and measure differences on the outside, but haven't been able to do that for the inside (like measuring individual muscle density relating to strength and speed, or measuring individual tinsel strength of ligaments or of ligament attachment points, etc.). Maybe one day we'll have the technology to quantify measurements on individuals for such things. But until then, when we apply strength and conditioning techniques on a general basis, were not likely gong to lower the rate of injury issues much when striving for maximum performance from individuals.
But . . . even with machines where we do have the data to know just where the breaking points are, both inside and out, there are those who will push the machine to and beyond those points in their effort to get as much out of the machine as possible. That will continue to be so for the human body too. 
- Overweight balls may be causing damage to the tissue of the shoulder to allow more layback. This gain in layback may also increase the strain on the Tommy John ligament.
- Underweight balls increase the amount of peak strain on the arm.
Don't get me wrong, but doesn't this imply that though it "may" increase velocity, it also "may" increase in injury? It doesn't matter how you throw with either professional trainer or by untrained individual, the the damages do occur or did i miss something that stated if you threw with professional these strains will "NOT" occur? Even in his studies a subject was injured while implementing a weighted ball program by professional?
Also if you trained regularly with 7oz ball or more, isn't it logical that a 5oz ball would be in the Underweight ball category and would cause the high peak stress as the 4oz ball did?
We have 6 new kids who have never thrown a baseball in their life and they desperately want to make the team. One has decent velocity (65mph) while the others are around 55-60. The guy who throws harder however puts everything into every throw and he gets tired quickly. I keep telling him to take it easy but I think he wants to impress us. How would you train these guys to get the most out of them? Right now they throw rainbows over trees during lunch time. I figured that's a good idea as that's what I did when I was a kid, but I was 10/11, not 15/16. Should they do any long toss or hard throwing at all or should they just play catch everyday until next year?
Could it be that heavier implements are easier on the elbow but harder on the shoulder? I think javelin throwers have more shoulder injuries than elbow injuries, (they have elbow pain but not so often surgery I think).
Dominik85 posted:Could it be that heavier implements are easier on the elbow but harder on the shoulder? I think javelin throwers have more shoulder injuries than elbow injuries, (they have elbow pain but not so often surgery I think).
Could be something to this. You don't see quarterbacks with a lot of elbow problems.
personally,
with the individual that uses "all" of his body, I would concentrate on conditioning so he doesn't tire out rather quickly.
I think you need to develop a plan that consist of lifting weights for the lower body, steady diet of core regiment and long toss, but not too much to strain the arm. The lifting weight is hard thing to gauge as some body type is more ready then others at age 15/16 so I would consult a pro. I have never seen Yeager video before until 2 days ago, but I was doing almost the same thing with my son, but I think he has refined it from trial and error.
Most importantly, stick with a plan from beginning to end and adjust as needed but stick with it.
this is just what I would do or currently am doing, I'm not a pro, but i've researched a lot. Take it for whatever is worth.
A lot of the problem is that very few coaches, even most of the ones using weighted ball programs, really get why it works - especially with the underweight portion. Anyone interested in using weighted balls should, for beginners, simply spend just one half hour studying proprioception. Simply having a solid understanding of what this term means will make the goals and uses of weighted ball work a lot more understandable. It's a concept few are really familiar with, but simply knowing it will turn on light bulbs.
hsbaseball101 posted:We have 6 new kids who have never thrown a baseball in their life and they desperately want to make the team. One has decent velocity (65mph) while the others are around 55-60. The guy who throws harder however puts everything into every throw and he gets tired quickly. I keep telling him to take it easy but I think he wants to impress us. How would you train these guys to get the most out of them? Right now they throw rainbows over trees during lunch time. I figured that's a good idea as that's what I did when I was a kid, but I was 10/11, not 15/16. Should they do any long toss or hard throwing at all or should they just play catch everyday until next year?
Hey Coach,
I think long toss is good as part of the equation but it should be monitored, at least until you have drilled the importance of maintaining proper mechanics when throwing with an intentional arc. My experience is that most new players drop their arm angle and fly open when they just jump into long toss without proper guidance.
I would have a very specific progressive warm up and throwing routine for them instead of "just play catch". Again, there should be lots of guidance by coaches as to give them a chance to properly develop good mechanics and kinetic chain. For some, most of this comes naturally. For many, it does not. For most, slight adjustments at the outset can make a big difference in how much they can improve in a relatively short period of time. Close monitoring of throwing mechanics during warm ups is so important, yet I see so many coaches use this time as their "BS with the other coaches" time or "field maintenance" time.
Even more important... I'd spend more time on hitting
I think one thing we are forgetting on these studies are alot of statistics are coming from players who are not FULLY developed, especially long toss. As the players grow and develop eventually they should get stronger and throw harder. So, are we saying that it was just the long toss or weitghted balls or lifting weight, I don't ever see biological transformation reference from one season to next for the players.
To the proponents of professional clubs not using the weighted balls, yes I would like to know why as well, a sport that's been around since 1845, the mecca of all that have touched, thrown, caught or hit a baseball. With almost limitless resources to find that franchise pitcher, if weighted ball is the answer for the pitchers then why do these ball clubs search outside the boundaries and spend millions of dollars to find the next Cy Young, instead of developing within. The ball clubs are gravitating to areas that baseball is played the most, the arms are used the most and the balls are hit the most.
If the professional pitchers are at their peak therefore they do not need to throw the weighted balls, this doesn't make sense, if you have an equipment that helps you get to the top level, once you get there stop using it?
In football you don't throw, curve, slider, surve, cutter, 2seam, 4seam, change, screw, gyro or a knuckle. The arm action and the grip for a QB is slightly different then a Pitcher.
The things I like to question, I hear stress, strain and tear, but are these the good ones or the bad ones. I know that to build the muscle you need to tear it down, but is this muscle there to be built, our chest and leg muscles are definitely have space to grow, but some of muscles we are talking about are in places where massive growth can't happen or shouldn't.
I just read an article recently, Tampa Bay organization was trying to find "new" method for developing and training, so their low minor league affiliate was the test dummy. One idea was the weighted balls, for proprietary reasons the group didn't divulge what exactly was done with the weighted balls, but the success story was that this 34th round pick was going to be released, if I read the article correctly he was throwing in the 90s but lost the velocity. With the weighted ball program he got his velocity back to the 90s not increased his velocity since losing it but got it back. But the sad thing was that the very next year, he had arm problems and needed surgery. Now was this injury because of the weighted ball program, or just pitching too much. I am not sure. But one thing the parent club made it absolutely clear is that they will NOT use this method on their "TOP" prospects for now.
D6L posted:I think one thing we are forgetting on these studies are alot of statistics are coming from players who are not FULLY developed, especially long toss. As the players grow and develop eventually they should get stronger and throw harder. So, are we saying that it was just the long toss or weitghted balls or lifting weight, I don't ever see biological transformation reference from one season to next for the players.
To the proponents of professional clubs not using the weighted balls, yes I would like to know why as well, a sport that's been around since 1845, the mecca of all that have touched, thrown, caught or hit a baseball. With almost limitless resources to find that franchise pitcher, if weighted ball is the answer for the pitchers then why do these ball clubs search outside the boundaries and spend millions of dollars to find the next Cy Young, instead of developing within. The ball clubs are gravitating to areas that baseball is played the most, the arms are used the most and the balls are hit the most.
If the professional pitchers are at their peak therefore they do not need to throw the weighted balls, this doesn't make sense, if you have an equipment that helps you get to the top level, once you get there stop using it?
In football you don't throw, curve, slider, surve, cutter, 2seam, 4seam, change, screw, gyro or a knuckle. The arm action and the grip for a QB is slightly different then a Pitcher.
The things I like to question, I hear stress, strain and tear, but are these the good ones or the bad ones. I know that to build the muscle you need to tear it down, but is this muscle there to be built, our chest and leg muscles are definitely have space to grow, but some of muscles we are talking about are in places where massive growth can't happen or shouldn't.
I just read an article recently, Tampa Bay organization was trying to find "new" method for developing and training, so their low minor league affiliate was the test dummy. One idea was the weighted balls, for proprietary reasons the group didn't divulge what exactly was done with the weighted balls, but the success story was that this 34th round pick was going to be released, if I read the article correctly he was throwing in the 90s but lost the velocity. With the weighted ball program he got his velocity back to the 90s not increased his velocity since losing it but got it back. But the sad thing was that the very next year, he had arm problems and needed surgery. Now was this injury because of the weighted ball program, or just pitching too much. I am not sure. But one thing the parent club made it absolutely clear is that they will NOT use this method on their "TOP" prospects for now.
There are a lot of common misconceptions concerning weighted ball work in this post. First is the idea that MLB clubs don't use weighted balls. It's just not trues. A lot of them do. Even with clubs that may not formally incorporate programs, many very durable mlb'ers do use weighted balls as very important components to their personal programs. You don't have to look any farther than this World Series. If you watched Chapman warm up in the bullpen, you will see him use a weighted ball. In fact, one of the earliest proponents was Rivera.
A second misconception is that you can probably put off much of the velocity gains to natural growth. While this has some merit concerning long toss, where reports of gains come over longer periods of time, it just doesn't work for weighted ball gains. Every documented study concerning this deals with velocity gains over a very short period of time - usually no more than three months. Over such a short period of time, natural growth cannot be a factor. Additionally, this is an area where it is possible to separate out the numbers as they apply to younger players. One has to look no farther than Kyle Boddy's work in Washington to see a pattern of fully physically developed pitchers experiencing remarkable velocity gains over a relatively short period of time. Such developments couldn't possibly be the result of natural growth in subjects of this classification.
An anecdotal story of a single pitcher who needed surgery a year after using weighted balls is not very useful to the conversation. However, a long term comparison of injury rates among pitchers who use weighted ball programs and pitchers who don't would be useful. Of course, the conclusions of any such story would have to take two competing notions into account; 1) the idea that increased velocity inherently increases risk factors and 2) the idea that weighted ball work can actually increase the strength the smaller muscle groups surrounding the elbow, therefore allowing it to withstand greater stress factors. So, for example, if you saw increased velocity in our weighted ball subjects, but similar injury rates, you could certainly conclude that it has substantial positive effect. The same conclusion could be reached if you saw no increase in velocity gain rates of change, but substantially lower injury rates in weighted ball pitchers. However, if you saw only slight changes in increased velocity and substantially greater injury rates in weighted ball pitchers, you could conclude the opposite.
edit: Another misconception is that weighted balls as a general concept are a new untested training method and that the old timers didn't need them. In reality, weighted balls have been around for more than a hundred years. IN the old days, pitchers would soak balls in water to weight them down for throwing "programs."
roothog66 posted:Dominik85 posted:Could it be that heavier implements are easier on the elbow but harder on the shoulder? I think javelin throwers have more shoulder injuries than elbow injuries, (they have elbow pain but not so often surgery I think).
Could be something to this. You don't see quarterbacks with a lot of elbow problems.
When I look at slow-mo of football throwing, it reminds me more of long-toss in baseball. Missing are the bend at the waste, the big follow-through, and the downward angle of the throw. I'm guessing the lack of elbow problems has more to do with the difference in effort/stress.
MidAtlanticDad posted:When I look at slow-mo of football throwing, it reminds me more of long-toss in baseball. Missing are the bend at the waste, the big follow-through, and the downward angle of the throw. I'm guessing the lack of elbow problems has more to do with the difference in effort/stress.
The things you mention don't really support your theory though. They are mechanical differences, not effort.
However those observations do get to the heart of the issue. It's not always what you are throwing - but how you throw it.
Marshall had guys throwing iron balls, not just the slightly heavier balls everybody gets up in arms about. I don't think he had any guys hurt their elbows doing it.
That doesn't mean I'm a big Marshall fan, but even if I question the effectiveness of the mechanics he advocates - It certainly does pass the safety test.
Specifics aside, quarterbacks and pitchers throw the ball differently. One group has a history of elbow injuries, one does not.
Instead of just passing it off as being different, we should be looking at what can be learned from the way a football is thrown.
Rob T posted:MidAtlanticDad posted:When I look at slow-mo of football throwing, it reminds me more of long-toss in baseball. Missing are the bend at the waste, the big follow-through, and the downward angle of the throw. I'm guessing the lack of elbow problems has more to do with the difference in effort/stress.
The things you mention don't really support your theory though. They are mechanical differences, not effort.
I guess I was trying to say that the mechanics of pitching a baseball allow for or cause more effort/stress to the elbow than the mechanics of throwing a football. IOW, it's not just that the mechanics are different, it's that pitching mechanics wring every ounce of kinetics out of your body and focus it down through your arm. Football throwing is more like outfielder throwing, and outfielders don't seem to have many elbow injuries either. So I guess my conclusion is that the weight isn't nearly as big of a factor (if at all) as the mechanics of pitching off of a mound.
roothog66 posted:It's been proven for decades (though the work on this subject has been widely ignored by many in the field) that overload/underload training works.
'works' for what? Velocity? UCL/shoulder injury reduction? Not sure what you mean here, and if it relates to this topic.
roothog66 posted:D6L posted:I think one thing we are forgetting on these studies are alot of statistics are coming from players who are not FULLY developed, especially long toss. As the players grow and develop eventually they should get stronger and throw harder. So, are we saying that it was just the long toss or weitghted balls or lifting weight, I don't ever see biological transformation reference from one season to next for the players.
To the proponents of professional clubs not using the weighted balls, yes I would like to know why as well, a sport that's been around since 1845, the mecca of all that have touched, thrown, caught or hit a baseball. With almost limitless resources to find that franchise pitcher, if weighted ball is the answer for the pitchers then why do these ball clubs search outside the boundaries and spend millions of dollars to find the next Cy Young, instead of developing within. The ball clubs are gravitating to areas that baseball is played the most, the arms are used the most and the balls are hit the most.
If the professional pitchers are at their peak therefore they do not need to throw the weighted balls, this doesn't make sense, if you have an equipment that helps you get to the top level, once you get there stop using it?
In football you don't throw, curve, slider, surve, cutter, 2seam, 4seam, change, screw, gyro or a knuckle. The arm action and the grip for a QB is slightly different then a Pitcher.
The things I like to question, I hear stress, strain and tear, but are these the good ones or the bad ones. I know that to build the muscle you need to tear it down, but is this muscle there to be built, our chest and leg muscles are definitely have space to grow, but some of muscles we are talking about are in places where massive growth can't happen or shouldn't.
I just read an article recently, Tampa Bay organization was trying to find "new" method for developing and training, so their low minor league affiliate was the test dummy. One idea was the weighted balls, for proprietary reasons the group didn't divulge what exactly was done with the weighted balls, but the success story was that this 34th round pick was going to be released, if I read the article correctly he was throwing in the 90s but lost the velocity. With the weighted ball program he got his velocity back to the 90s not increased his velocity since losing it but got it back. But the sad thing was that the very next year, he had arm problems and needed surgery. Now was this injury because of the weighted ball program, or just pitching too much. I am not sure. But one thing the parent club made it absolutely clear is that they will NOT use this method on their "TOP" prospects for now.
There are a lot of common misconceptions concerning weighted ball work in this post. First is the idea that MLB clubs don't use weighted balls. It's just not trues. A lot of them do. Even with clubs that may not formally incorporate programs, many very durable mlb'ers do use weighted balls as very important components to their personal programs. You don't have to look any farther than this World Series. If you watched Chapman warm up in the bullpen, you will see him use a weighted ball. In fact, one of the earliest proponents was Rivera.
A second misconception is that you can probably put off much of the velocity gains to natural growth. While this has some merit concerning long toss, where reports of gains come over longer periods of time, it just doesn't work for weighted ball gains. Every documented study concerning this deals with velocity gains over a very short period of time - usually no more than three months. Over such a short period of time, natural growth cannot be a factor. Additionally, this is an area where it is possible to separate out the numbers as they apply to younger players. One has to look no farther than Kyle Boddy's work in Washington to see a pattern of fully physically developed pitchers experiencing remarkable velocity gains over a relatively short period of time. Such developments couldn't possibly be the result of natural growth in subjects of this classification.
An anecdotal story of a single pitcher who needed surgery a year after using weighted balls is not very useful to the conversation. However, a long term comparison of injury rates among pitchers who use weighted ball programs and pitchers who don't would be useful. Of course, the conclusions of any such story would have to take two competing notions into account; 1) the idea that increased velocity inherently increases risk factors and 2) the idea that weighted ball work can actually increase the strength the smaller muscle groups surrounding the elbow, therefore allowing it to withstand greater stress factors. So, for example, if you saw increased velocity in our weighted ball subjects, but similar injury rates, you could certainly conclude that it has substantial positive effect. The same conclusion could be reached if you saw no increase in velocity gain rates of change, but substantially lower injury rates in weighted ball pitchers. However, if you saw only slight changes in increased velocity and substantially greater injury rates in weighted ball pitchers, you could conclude the opposite.
edit: Another misconception is that weighted balls as a general concept are a new untested training method and that the old timers didn't need them. In reality, weighted balls have been around for more than a hundred years. IN the old days, pitchers would soak balls in water to weight them down for throwing "programs."
I believe you are validating what I am saying, listing individuals who use weighted balls as their individual preference and not the Organizations embracing the weighted ball as the sole source of increasing velocity. As you noted that this idea has been around for years also supports what i am trying to impart. As for Chapman you can youtube his mechanics as to why he can throw 105mph, not because of the weighted balls, but his hip to shoulder separation is BETTER than most elite pitchers and having his size is bonus as well. My assumption is, if he does use the weighted balls during bullpen session or warmup, this would stretch the hip/shoulder separation or even strength it, without undue stress of lifting heavy weights for the upper body rotation.
I agree that there is a place for weighted balls in a workout, but should not be touted as the "Main" source to increase velocity, in my opinion. In a 3 month period of "workout" program, you are in essence strength something and in any workout program it does take 3 months to see results. I know that if you put a load on anything continuously there will be some results, but why are we overloading the arm to the extreme when most of the power comes from the leg. When we overload something continuously there will be consequences.
Like you on this board I have read weighted ball research papers, during one of these programs an individual hurt his arm, and this was conducted by professionals as well.
Wasn't the Tampa Bay article done by professionals for the professional who competes at the very top? I am not sure how we can ignore it completely.
Just for the record... TJ surgeries have gone way down in 2016. Nearly 300%! Lowest number since TJ surgery became so common. Why aren't people talking about that? Guess it isn't quite as news worthy as calling it an epidemic. Probably some people hoping it increases again next year so they can continue writing about the epidemic. I hope it continues to decrease!
PGStaff posted:Just for the record... TJ surgeries have gone way down in 2016. Nearly 300%! Lowest number since TJ surgery became so common. Why aren't people talking about that? Guess it isn't quite as news worthy as calling it an epidemic. Probably some people hoping it increases again next year so they can continue writing about the epidemic. I hope it continues to decrease!
Wow! Is there a consensus of why? What is your take on what is happening?
My son is 12 and doesn't turn 13 until spring and only throws 61-62mph, last season was the first time since 8 that his velocity didn't increase 5mph, rather it increase only by 2mph. The only exercise we eliminated was the long toss, we figured because he was on a better team that they would have better program and the extra work was not needed. This season to get ready for the spring 13U we will implement the long toss (probably late Jan.)as well as other core exercises, not to keen on heavy lifting at this age. We have never used weighted balls in any of our programs. So we are going to see how the long toss in conjunction with core and light weight leg exercise program will produce. When I say light weight, I mean 2-4lbs for the legs.
PGStaff posted:Just for the record... TJ surgeries have gone way down in 2016. Nearly 300%! Lowest number since TJ surgery became so common. Why aren't people talking about that? Guess it isn't quite as news worthy as calling it an epidemic. Probably some people hoping it increases again next year so they can continue writing about the epidemic. I hope it continues to decrease!
Sounds like great news. Do you know if the number are available from any publications yet?
PGStaff posted:Just for the record... TJ surgeries have gone way down in 2016. Nearly 300%!
I wonder if more pitchers are going through stem cell therapy.
Random variation is the most likely cause. Which isn't exciting.
Kyle Boddy posted:Random variation is the most likely cause. Which isn't exciting.
+1
D6L posted:roothog66 posted:D6L posted:I think one thing we are forgetting on these studies are alot of statistics are coming from players who are not FULLY developed, especially long toss. As the players grow and develop eventually they should get stronger and throw harder. So, are we saying that it was just the long toss or weitghted balls or lifting weight, I don't ever see biological transformation reference from one season to next for the players.
To the proponents of professional clubs not using the weighted balls, yes I would like to know why as well, a sport that's been around since 1845, the mecca of all that have touched, thrown, caught or hit a baseball. With almost limitless resources to find that franchise pitcher, if weighted ball is the answer for the pitchers then why do these ball clubs search outside the boundaries and spend millions of dollars to find the next Cy Young, instead of developing within. The ball clubs are gravitating to areas that baseball is played the most, the arms are used the most and the balls are hit the most.
If the professional pitchers are at their peak therefore they do not need to throw the weighted balls, this doesn't make sense, if you have an equipment that helps you get to the top level, once you get there stop using it?
In football you don't throw, curve, slider, surve, cutter, 2seam, 4seam, change, screw, gyro or a knuckle. The arm action and the grip for a QB is slightly different then a Pitcher.
The things I like to question, I hear stress, strain and tear, but are these the good ones or the bad ones. I know that to build the muscle you need to tear it down, but is this muscle there to be built, our chest and leg muscles are definitely have space to grow, but some of muscles we are talking about are in places where massive growth can't happen or shouldn't.
I just read an article recently, Tampa Bay organization was trying to find "new" method for developing and training, so their low minor league affiliate was the test dummy. One idea was the weighted balls, for proprietary reasons the group didn't divulge what exactly was done with the weighted balls, but the success story was that this 34th round pick was going to be released, if I read the article correctly he was throwing in the 90s but lost the velocity. With the weighted ball program he got his velocity back to the 90s not increased his velocity since losing it but got it back. But the sad thing was that the very next year, he had arm problems and needed surgery. Now was this injury because of the weighted ball program, or just pitching too much. I am not sure. But one thing the parent club made it absolutely clear is that they will NOT use this method on their "TOP" prospects for now.
There are a lot of common misconceptions concerning weighted ball work in this post. First is the idea that MLB clubs don't use weighted balls. It's just not trues. A lot of them do. Even with clubs that may not formally incorporate programs, many very durable mlb'ers do use weighted balls as very important components to their personal programs. You don't have to look any farther than this World Series. If you watched Chapman warm up in the bullpen, you will see him use a weighted ball. In fact, one of the earliest proponents was Rivera.
A second misconception is that you can probably put off much of the velocity gains to natural growth. While this has some merit concerning long toss, where reports of gains come over longer periods of time, it just doesn't work for weighted ball gains. Every documented study concerning this deals with velocity gains over a very short period of time - usually no more than three months. Over such a short period of time, natural growth cannot be a factor. Additionally, this is an area where it is possible to separate out the numbers as they apply to younger players. One has to look no farther than Kyle Boddy's work in Washington to see a pattern of fully physically developed pitchers experiencing remarkable velocity gains over a relatively short period of time. Such developments couldn't possibly be the result of natural growth in subjects of this classification.
An anecdotal story of a single pitcher who needed surgery a year after using weighted balls is not very useful to the conversation. However, a long term comparison of injury rates among pitchers who use weighted ball programs and pitchers who don't would be useful. Of course, the conclusions of any such story would have to take two competing notions into account; 1) the idea that increased velocity inherently increases risk factors and 2) the idea that weighted ball work can actually increase the strength the smaller muscle groups surrounding the elbow, therefore allowing it to withstand greater stress factors. So, for example, if you saw increased velocity in our weighted ball subjects, but similar injury rates, you could certainly conclude that it has substantial positive effect. The same conclusion could be reached if you saw no increase in velocity gain rates of change, but substantially lower injury rates in weighted ball pitchers. However, if you saw only slight changes in increased velocity and substantially greater injury rates in weighted ball pitchers, you could conclude the opposite.
edit: Another misconception is that weighted balls as a general concept are a new untested training method and that the old timers didn't need them. In reality, weighted balls have been around for more than a hundred years. IN the old days, pitchers would soak balls in water to weight them down for throwing "programs."
I believe you are validating what I am saying, listing individuals who use weighted balls as their individual preference and not the Organizations embracing the weighted ball as the sole source of increasing velocity. As you noted that this idea has been around for years also supports what i am trying to impart. As for Chapman you can youtube his mechanics as to why he can throw 105mph, not because of the weighted balls, but his hip to shoulder separation is BETTER than most elite pitchers and having his size is bonus as well. My assumption is, if he does use the weighted balls during bullpen session or warmup, this would stretch the hip/shoulder separation or even strength it, without undue stress of lifting heavy weights for the upper body rotation.
I agree that there is a place for weighted balls in a workout, but should not be touted as the "Main" source to increase velocity, in my opinion. In a 3 month period of "workout" program, you are in essence strength something and in any workout program it does take 3 months to see results. I know that if you put a load on anything continuously there will be some results, but why are we overloading the arm to the extreme when most of the power comes from the leg. When we overload something continuously there will be consequences.
Like you on this board I have read weighted ball research papers, during one of these programs an individual hurt his arm, and this was conducted by professionals as well.
Wasn't the Tampa Bay article done by professionals for the professional who competes at the very top? I am not sure how we can ignore it completely.
To quote George McFly: " I'm writing this down. This is good stuff!"
TE