A paper on weighted balls, long toss and tj

@D6L posted:

Just like to update, he is now 5'9" and 123lbs, we went to our customary tryout for his mid level club team.  He was cruising at 76-77 on his fast ball and -10 - -12 on his off speed.  Clocked 7.07 in the 60.

 

This year we did little of weight lifting, squats and dead lift, not more than 100lbs, little bit of plyometrics, a little long toss and cardio.

He is 5'11 and half, almost 6', weighs 135!!!  Doctors says he had a late growth spurt and he may grow another 2-3, we will see.  But he is throwing 78-83, consistently in the 80s, one tryout he was clocked 84, I didn't see it so.  We are trying to gain weight.  He has try this and that on his own.  If anyone has some ideas, I would love to hear.

Update a year later,

Son 2022, is past 6', close to 6'1" and still growing, weighs 150 on a good day, velocity is sitting around 83 84.  Now he is getting noticed, received genuine emails and not spam, not asking for money for camps, lol and phone conference calls with DIII head coaches.  If his projection is consistent from all of his years, he should be throwing 86-88 by the end of this year.  Love to add some weight on his body though.

Mass=gas (to an extent). Help him understand that gaining mass is part of the job and just as important as working out. Find out his daily calorie intake and add a couple thousand calories. Sneak in olive oil and other good fats wherever you can (rice, oatmeal milkshakes, etc.). It sounds like he may not be past his pubertal growth spurt so he may still grow quite a bit and add a good chunk of velocity. Feed him.

@D6L posted:

Update a year later,

Son 2022, is past 6', close to 6'1" and still growing, weighs 150 on a good day, velocity is sitting around 83 84.  Now he is getting noticed, received genuine emails and not spam, not asking for money for camps, lol and phone conference calls with DIII head coaches.  If his projection is consistent from all of his years, he should be throwing 86-88 by the end of this year.  Love to add some weight on his body though.

Our sons sound like twins.

Pls don't let TPM comment on "weighted balls"!

This has been a great journey/journal since we started posting here on this site.  Something I can look back on and reminiscence the past.  Son still 6'1" and little less than 150lbs on a good eating day, very very athletic, at 5'10 he could dunk a basketball, just came back from 18U WWBA World Championships in Jupiter FL.   I was really humbled with all the tremendous talent gathered in one area, and it's an experience our son will enjoy and remember for rest of his life.  One thing my son said to me "i belong here" still rings.

End of August there were rumors from D3 college scouts that he touched 88, in the fall there were no rumors, our son was consistently hitting 87-88 and now touching 89 on many occasions.  We are hopeful after good winter workout we can pass 90.  His increase in velo has passed my expectations for his year.

We have never used weighted balls for this journey, if there was a week of lull, we would use long toss to maintain strength and the long toss was completely on his own discretion, continuously preaching, listen to his arm.

We have a lot of d3 schools calling, but his goal has been to go to d1, we have given him information of d3 vs d1 and he understands, he has been a late bloomer.

@D6L posted:

This has been a great journey/journal since we started posting here on this site.  Something I can look back on and reminiscence the past.  Son still 6'1" and little less than 150lbs on a good eating day, very very athletic, at 5'10 he could dunk a basketball, just came back from 18U WWBA World Championships in Jupiter FL.   I was really humbled with all the tremendous talent gathered in one area, and it's an experience our son will enjoy and remember for rest of his life.  One thing my son said to me "i belong here" still rings.

End of August there were rumors from D3 college scouts that he touched 88, in the fall there were no rumors, our son was consistently hitting 87-88 and now touching 89 on many occasions.  We are hopeful after good winter workout we can pass 90.  His increase in velo has passed my expectations for his year.

We have never used weighted balls for this journey, if there was a week of lull, we would use long toss to maintain strength and the long toss was completely on his own discretion, continuously preaching, listen to his arm.

We have a lot of d3 schools calling, but his goal has been to go to d1, we have given him information of d3 vs d1 and he understands, he has been a late bloomer.

He has to really think hard about the D1 v D3 logic, particularly in this current era.  I've posted this a few times in the past year, but a very clear impact from Covid was essentially the reverberation down the food chain for talent.  Since so many kids took 5th years, incoming 20/21 Freshman who wanted a better chance at playing time before their Junior years opted to drop down a level or two to Juco, D2 and D3.  Thus the pool for D3 is not the same as it was a few years ago.  It's gotten FAR more competitive.  I'd take that into consideration, because while the allure of big time D1 baseball is tough to ignore, the reality is *actually* playing is pretty appealing when you've made the full time commitment to college baseball.  Go where you're loved, where you love, and where you can play.  Don't get overly caught up in labels.

@Wechson posted:

He has to really think hard about the D1 v D3 logic, particularly in this current era.  I've posted this a few times in the past year, but a very clear impact from Covid was essentially the reverberation down the food chain for talent.  Since so many kids took 5th years, incoming 20/21 Freshman who wanted a better chance at playing time before their Junior years opted to drop down a level or two to Juco, D2 and D3.  Thus the pool for D3 is not the same as it was a few years ago.  It's gotten FAR more competitive.  I'd take that into consideration, because while the allure of big time D1 baseball is tough to ignore, the reality is *actually* playing is pretty appealing when you've made the full time commitment to college baseball.  Go where you're loved, where you love, and where you can play.  Don't get overly caught up in labels.

Just to add my tiny $.02 to this comment - I am by far NO recruiting expert, but my 2024 is beginning this whole crazy process!  He is a RHP and is highly projectable (per his coaches), but he still has a lot of room for growth and development. As he says, "I'm still a rough project that needs several drafts before the final paper gets turned in." Off track - sorry -  He is being looked at by schools of ALL levels.  He of course was all starry eyed at the very beginning and wanted only to entertain the top D1 school idea, but, from the knowledge I have learned here on this board, I've been able to open his eyes to the "Go where you are loved, where you love and where you can play" mentality.

For weeks now I've showed him roster after roster of many, many schools on his list that are filled with JUCO kids and transfer kids from high level D1 schools.  There are by far more JUCO transfers, other "high level" school transfers and sophomores, juniors and seniors on these rosters then freshman.  He finally understands how recruiting has changed, especially, post Covid.

So, it is VERY important for kids to grasp this and more so, embrace this thought process. I'm seeing it with my own two eyes right now!

It's also really important to know (that especially now), coaches have over recruited at the D1 level. The bigger rosters allowed them to do that.  I went to a practice last week and heard several parents saying things like, "If we are still here after December..."  Last year, no roster limit, this year 40. We currently have 50.  10 are going to have to leave at Christmas or be redshirted.  There are a couple of guys that transferred in and I'm sure are starry eyed, that are just not going to make it.  It is a tough, tough situation right now.  I haven't heard if they are going back to normal rosters next year, but even with 40 on the roster this year, only 27 will travel, so almost half the current team will not play or will be cut.

On the topic of getting stronger. It has a huge effect on Velo/power.  Most of my son's class (pitchers) came in touching 94, we now have 2 hitting 99. And several more hitting 96-97. They have a greatStrength coach. Most have gained at least 10-15 lbs last year.  Our freshman of the year gained 20lbs.  It makes a difference.

@Wechson posted:

Since so many kids took 5th years, incoming 20/21 Freshman who wanted a better chance at playing time before their Junior years opted to drop down a level or two to Juco, D2 and D3. 

It's even worse than that. NJCAA granted a blanket waiver for the 2020-21 year, as well as 2019-20. I'm not clear on all the details, but there are lots of juco transfers who are listed as freshmen on current D1 rosters who graduated high school in 2019. They didn't play many games in 2019-20, but could have played an entire season in 2020-21. So, many of those "kids" will still be D1 eligible in 2024-25... muscling out kids who are graduating from high school in 2024. Crazy.

@BaseballMOM05 posted:

Just to add my tiny $.02 to this comment - I am by far NO recruiting expert, but my 2024 is beginning this whole crazy process!  He is a RHP and is highly projectable (per his coaches), but he still has a lot of room for growth and development. As he says, "I'm still a rough project that needs several drafts before the final paper gets turned in." Off track - sorry -  He is being looked at by schools of ALL levels.  He of course was all starry eyed at the very beginning and wanted only to entertain the top D1 school idea, but, from the knowledge I have learned here on this board, I've been able to open his eyes to the "Go where you are loved, where you love and where you can play" mentality.

For weeks now I've showed him roster after roster of many, many schools on his list that are filled with JUCO kids and transfer kids from high level D1 schools.  There are by far more JUCO transfers, other "high level" school transfers and sophomores, juniors and seniors on these rosters then freshman.  He finally understands how recruiting has changed, especially, post Covid.

So, it is VERY important for kids to grasp this and more so, embrace this thought process. I'm seeing it with my own two eyes right now!

@baseballmom05, etal:

This is an extremely insightful post, the only thing I would add that it is a lot more fun to win than lose, so drop the "D1" aspirations and go "where you are loved" as well as go "where there is a winning tradition" and "go where you will have fun" as it is a lot more fun to win at Dx level then to lose consistently at the D1 level.

I would also add "go where you will contribute" which in the end is the most important...other than "go where you can get a great education" as in the end this the most important.

Best of luck!

@D6L posted:

This has been a great journey/journal since we started posting here on this site.  Something I can look back on and reminiscence the past.  Son still 6'1" and little less than 150lbs on a good eating day, very very athletic, at 5'10 he could dunk a basketball, just came back from 18U WWBA World Championships in Jupiter FL.   I was really humbled with all the tremendous talent gathered in one area, and it's an experience our son will enjoy and remember for rest of his life.  One thing my son said to me "i belong here" still rings.

End of August there were rumors from D3 college scouts that he touched 88, in the fall there were no rumors, our son was consistently hitting 87-88 and now touching 89 on many occasions.  We are hopeful after good winter workout we can pass 90.  His increase in velo has passed my expectations for his year.

We have never used weighted balls for this journey, if there was a week of lull, we would use long toss to maintain strength and the long toss was completely on his own discretion, continuously preaching, listen to his arm.

We have a lot of d3 schools calling, but his goal has been to go to d1, we have given him information of d3 vs d1 and he understands, he has been a late bloomer.

Was your son strength training? If he's just starting and thinks he is going to walk into a D1 program and in the fall and survive he's going to be shocked. There was probably a time when "just wait til he gets on campus and starts lifting" was a thing. My son is at a low level D1 and has kids there benching 240-265 for reps.

Whoomp there it is!  Son hit 90 consistently in the bullpen session today.  Gained about 7-9lbs over the winter and definitely shows.  All being equal he should be around 92 by the summer.  Proud Proud of him!

Congrats! What year is he?

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Congrats! What year is he?

2022

@nycdad posted:

Was your son strength training? If he's just starting and thinks he is going to walk into a D1 program and in the fall and survive he's going to be shocked. There was probably a time when "just wait til he gets on campus and starts lifting" was a thing. My son is at a low level D1 and has kids there benching 240-265 for reps.

No reason to bench 245, I created a hybrid workout that would fit his body and position type (plays up the middle as well),  Squat was his heavy workout, did not want him to do dead lift as this would put tremendous pressure on his elbow.

@D6L posted:

No reason to bench 245, I created a hybrid workout that would fit his body and position type (plays up the middle as well),  Squat was his heavy workout, did not want him to do dead lift as this would put tremendous pressure on his elbow.

Different strokes for different folks. Some routines work better than others. There is no single bad exercise.

@D6L posted:

2022

Is he re-classing or still going through the recruiting process as a 2022?

@nycdad posted:

Different strokes for different folks. Some routines work better than others. There is no single bad exercise.

I would take issue with your last sentence. I have been told by top in their field orthos that (for baseball players) all olympic lifts should be avoided. They are high risk - low reward. There are better ways to build strength that are less likely to cause injury.

@adbono posted:

I would take issue with your last sentence. I have been told by top in their field orthos that (for baseball players) all olympic lifts should be avoided. They are high risk - low reward. There are better ways to build strength that are less likely to cause injury.

I would tend to agree about olympic lifts, the whole risk vs. reward thing. My above response was a little flippant. I wrote it with bench press in mind.

@adbono posted:

I would take issue with your last sentence. I have been told by top in their field orthos that (for baseball players) all olympic lifts should be avoided. They are high risk - low reward. There are better ways to build strength that are less likely to cause injury.

And to agree with adbono statement from experience, I watched an individual perform dead lift maxing out and proceeded to max out on velo, after throwing he felt pain in his arm and needed surgery on his throwing elbow.  I get it that this should not be done immediately after lifting, but we are dealing with kids, without education and supervision they will do these things.

I think one thing parents and coaches forget that the kids are growing and this growth is almost never mentioned when the players velo increases.

@nycdad posted:

Is he re-classing or still going through the recruiting process as a 2022?

If it is meant to be for college and beyond it is meant to be, I don't see a reason for our son to reclass.

Son 6'1 and sitting 152lbs.  As we turned the next chapter, here are my thoughts and experience;  I have some engineering back ground and played sports in HS.

Pitched in his last summer/HS game with his teammates, in his last game which was the playoffs, he struck out 17 batters, 7ip, and 98 pitches thrown, 3 pitch kid (fastball, curve and change)cruising 88-90 the whole game, touched 91 and 92, the 98th pitch was clocked at 89mph with pocket radar.  Was recruited mostly by D3s, an offer from D2 and few D1 interests, almost all local D3 wanted him to visit their facility, got a full ride to a JUCO, but he turned that down, sigh.  On his collegiate team he pitched 27ip, 24k with 2.9 ERA.

At the end of the day, and maybe due to his lack of academic preparedness, he decided on a local D3 school.

Our journey was to get to 90mph, we were hoping that baseball would help him to get into a college, instead baseball got him into a college.

We did not use weighted balls, we lifted weights for 3 months in his junior year only thinking he stopped growing but once we found out his growth plate was still open, we stopped the lifting.  When we did lift, we did squat as our heavy leg work out, mostly light free weights for the upper body and plyometric for developing the quick muscles, and all this could be found on youtube. 

One main thing we focused on this journey was hip-shoulder separation throughout the years and even still.  Every year except for one when he was relegated to the OF only, 12u and was run by daddy ball he gained 3+ mph on his velo.   He pitched in a game once a week and threw more than 50+ pitches in all of his outings after 12u.  If we knew he was to be idled for more than a week, we added a long toss session, for that week.  There was a correlation between growth (height/weight) with increased in his velo and in his Junior year because of the weight lifting his velo increased by more than 5+mph.  There was no magical workout, instructor that assist him to increase in his velo.  At 13u, the topvelocity guy (Brent) came out to our area, spent $599 for the camp and all he said to me was, keep doing what he is doing, biggest waste of my money!

In ten years our son never complained about his arm, in 98% of games we made sure that he wasn't being abused, only 3 games we recall, when we knew it was the last time he will be pitching for the season did we allow him to throw more.

On this forum, there has been a wealth of experience, knowledge and common sense.  Thank you.

6'1" 152lb.....Your son needs a steak and milkshake, not weighted balls ;-)

So cool to see your son's journey through this thread!  Congrats to you and your boy @D6L! You should be proud.

Did he long toss year round?  Take regular time off from throwing in the off-season?  Play any other sports, etc?

@Zanzibar posted:

So cool to see your son's journey through this thread!  Congrats to you and your boy @D6L! You should be proud.

Did he long toss year round?  Take regular time off from throwing in the off-season?  Play any other sports, etc?

We used long toss as a tool and not specifically for increasing velocity, we did not long toss year round, we used long toss ONLY when he was being idled for more than 10 days except from Feb to end of Mar when we long tossed every 4 or 5 days, in most cases until 15u he was shut down from end of September to end of Feb next year when we started throwing again, February through end of March we gradually increased the tempo, during the same time we would do pulldowns last 2 weeks in Mar and clocked him, as a youth this was a barometer to which we would go by the years end, for example; this Feb-Mar on a pull down he was clocked 92mph, this year he topped 92 on the mound, the year before that, he pull down 89mph and at the end of the season he hit 89 consistently, in the beginning of year he was hitting 84-86mph.    At 16u, he was able to get on mid top tier club team and at 17u he was able to get on top tier club team and this caused his season to be longer up to end of October.  He pretty much pitched once a week, it did help that he threw almost 75% strikes and at times he would go 3-0 and battle back to get the batter out or sometimes they would get a hit.  We were also fortunate with good college background coaches when he got older.

Pull down =  taking few steps and throwing as hard as you can to the fence, net, either run or walk and as long as the radar is going up or staying the same mph he kept throwing.

Long Toss  = light toss starting from home plate to 60 feet and light tossed upto 90 feet moving 5 LARGE adult steps back every 3 balls, (with this we were VERY careful, I adhere to him listening to his arm, some days we literately threw only 20 balls and some days were able to empty the bucket, we would also come back to 60 feet and I would let him pitch, fastball change and curve.

Most importantly we worked on hip to shoulder separation.

He is very athletic, he could have played football, basketball and track, he seems to have closing speed.  He can dunk now with both his hands on the ball.  thanks for reading the post and hope this helps.

@D6L posted:

We used long toss as a tool and not specifically for increasing velocity, we did not long toss year round, we used long toss ONLY when he was being idled for more than 10 days except from Feb to end of Mar when we long tossed every 4 or 5 days, in most cases until 15u he was shut down from end of September to end of Feb next year when we started throwing again, February through end of March we gradually increased the tempo, during the same time we would do pulldowns last 2 weeks in Mar and clocked him, as a youth this was a barometer to which we would go by the years end, for example; this Feb-Mar on a pull down he was clocked 92mph, this year he topped 92 on the mound, the year before that, he pull down 89mph and at the end of the season he hit 89 consistently, in the beginning of year he was hitting 84-86mph.    At 16u, he was able to get on mid top tier club team and at 17u he was able to get on top tier club team and this caused his season to be longer up to end of October.  He pretty much pitched once a week, it did help that he threw almost 75% strikes and at times he would go 3-0 and battle back to get the batter out or sometimes they would get a hit.  We were also fortunate with good college background coaches when he got older.

Pull down =  taking few steps and throwing as hard as you can to the fence, net, either run or walk and as long as the radar is going up or staying the same mph he kept throwing.

Long Toss  = light toss starting from home plate to 60 feet and light tossed upto 90 feet moving 5 LARGE adult steps back every 3 balls, (with this we were VERY careful, I adhere to him listening to his arm, some days we literately threw only 20 balls and some days were able to empty the bucket, we would also come back to 60 feet and I would let him pitch, fastball change and curve.

Most importantly we worked on hip to shoulder separation.

He is very athletic, he could have played football, basketball and track, he seems to have closing speed.  He can dunk now with both his hands on the ball.  thanks for reading the post and hope this helps.

Super helpful!  Thanks for sharing.  Your point about listening to the arm is so important and one of the things I'm constantly stressing with my '26.