@314Calhoun posted:John got in the mid-week game and had success!
That’s correct. He threw 5 pitches. The last of which resulted in a game ending double play. Let’s see what happens next.
I don't know John, but I am rooting for him
I think it is pretty impressive that a team can throw all 18 of their pitchers and have an 8-0 record. LFG John!
@Dadbelly2023 posted:I think it is pretty impressive that a team can throw all 18 of their pitchers and have an 8-0 record. LFG John!
Well if we are being accurate the number of pitchers used is up to 20. A couple are 2 way guys. And they are now 8-1. But those are just details. The point of this thread is the challenge facing freshmen trying to get on the field at top 30 D1 programs.
@adbono posted:Well if we are being accurate the number of pitchers used is up to 20. A couple are 2 way guys. And they are now 8-1. But those are just details. The point of this thread is the challenge facing freshmen trying to get on the field at top 30 D1 programs.
That can be an emotional and mental challenge. Just about every D1 player that arrives on a college campus have tasted nothing but success their entire career. I can see their being some mental scar tissue forming when they find themselves in John's position of not getting any playing time. However, there is nothing that changes a coaches mind about a player as fast as seeing success in a game situation. If John can get on the field and make the most of his outings, then the coach will put him back out there again.
@Ster posted:That can be an emotional and mental challenge. Just about every D1 player that arrives on a college campus have tasted nothing but success their entire career. I can see their being some mental scar tissue forming when they find themselves in John's position of not getting any playing time. However, there is nothing that changes a coaches mind about a player as fast as seeing success in a game situation. If John can get on the field and make the most of his outings, then the coach will put him back out there again.
If you have read this entire thread you know it’s my belief that John and his parents made a bad decision. He is not ready today for the demands of a ranked D1 program. I believe that he will be ready in a couple of years, but not today. John was a late bloomer that really only experienced great success in his senior year of HS - and that was partly because he transferred to a school that was one classification down. All signs are that John is in for a very difficult freshman year that will test his confidence and his dedication to his craft. I also have concerns about what that will do to his mental state of mind. But that’s really the point of this thread - the unintended consequences of decisions. I could see this coming a mile away and warned John and his father about this particular school. But they didn’t listen to me. And this was after I spent over 3 years developing John as his private pitching instructor - for no money btw. Like you, I hope John can overcome his circumstances. Time will tell.
@Ster posted:That can be an emotional and mental challenge. Just about every D1 player that arrives on a college campus have tasted nothing but success their entire career. I can see their being some mental scar tissue forming when they find themselves in John's position of not getting any playing time. However, there is nothing that changes a coaches mind about a player as fast as seeing success in a game situation. If John can get on the field and make the most of his outings, then the coach will put him back out there again.
IMO and in coaches defense, managing the roster is not an easy task. Some players have the stuff but not ready for the actual game.
What bothers me, and I know that I am repeating myself, some coaches just throw guys out there and burn the players year and it drives me crazy.
Make sure during recruiting that you understand the coaches philosophy.
If as a player you don't care, that's on you.
JMO
@adbono posted:If you have read this entire thread you know it’s my belief that John and his parents made a bad decision. He is not ready today for the demands of a ranked D1 program. I believe that he will be ready in a couple of years, but not today. John was a late bloomer that really only experienced great success in his senior year of HS - and that was partly because he transferred to a school that was one classification down. All signs are that John is in for a very difficult freshman year that will test his confidence and his dedication to his craft. I also have concerns about what that will do to his mental state of mind. But that’s really the point of this thread - the unintended consequences of decisions. I could see this coming a mile away and warned John and his father about this particular school. But they didn’t listen to me. And this was after I spent over 3 years developing John as his private pitching instructor - for no money btw. Like you, I hope John can overcome his circumstances. Time will tell.
That is very unfortunate, that the family failed to listen to quality advice. I know that the directors of my son's travel team have given similar advice to some of my son's teammates, but the allure of the "big name" is very attractive to players (AND FAMILY). Last summer, the directors of my son's travel ball team held a meeting with all of the families. The purpose of the meeting was to share with them that college baseball has changed dramatically over the past couple of years. Their presentation showed that P5 programs are dropping players that they recruit a much higher incident than they have in years past. They showed examples of one Power 5 school that dropped four high school seniors in their senior season. These players had been committed to this school since they were 9th and 10th graders and were informed their senior year that they weren't going to able to attend that school. They also presented data about the alarming number of Freshmen that were no longer on school rosters by the time they were sophomores. They claimed that fewer and fewer college programs are willing to be patient and help develop young players, and the instance gratification that comes from transfer portal is leading to many young players being released without fully getting a chance to grow and develop within their program.
The purpose of this meeting was to essentially tell families to be cautious and understand that recruiting and program commitments to players aren't as sound as they were prior to transfer portal. The ability for college programs to go into the transfer portal and get older/experienced players has led to a lot of difficult circumstances for a lot of younger players.
@Ster posted:That is very unfortunate, that the family failed to listen to quality advice. I know that the directors of my son's travel team have given similar advice to some of my son's teammates, but the allure of the "big name" is very attractive to players (AND FAMILY). Last summer, the directors of my son's travel ball team held a meeting with all of the families. The purpose of the meeting was to share with them that college baseball has changed dramatically over the past couple of years. Their presentation showed that P5 programs are dropping players that they recruit a much higher incident than they have in years past. They showed examples of one Power 5 school that dropped four high school seniors in their senior season. These players had been committed to this school since they were 9th and 10th graders and were informed their senior year that they weren't going to able to attend that school. They also presented data about the alarming number of Freshmen that were no longer on school rosters by the time they were sophomores. They claimed that fewer and fewer college programs are willing to be patient and help develop young players, and the instance gratification that comes from transfer portal is leading to many young players being released without fully getting a chance to grow and develop within their program.
The purpose of this meeting was to essentially tell families to be cautious and understand that recruiting and program commitments to players aren't as sound as they were prior to transfer portal. The ability for college programs to go into the transfer portal and get older/experienced players has led to a lot of difficult circumstances for a lot of younger players.
Kudos to your travel ball org for putting on that presentation. Everything you stated is exactly what is going on. Some people, for whatever reason, just refuse to believe it.
Here is the latest update for those that are following along:
John’s team sits at 14-3 on the season and is currently ranked. So far John has just made one appearance and thrown 5 total pitches. Which means he has used up his first year of eligibility. He doesn’t understand why he isn’t getting more opportunities and his confidence is taking a beating. It’s very questionable (in my mind) if he is mature enough to endure a freshman year like this w/o it having a lasting impact on his mental well being. And that’s something that most players/parents don’t think about until it’s happening to them. John’s current situation was predictable - and therefore could have been avoided. This particular school has a well known history of burying freshman pitchers. But John and his parents were caught up in grabbing the biggest, shiniest brass ring they could reach and didn’t consider the downside if things didn’t go well. Now the team is heading into conference play and future opportunities for John (and others) will be limited to their remaining mid-week games. Things could change but I can read the writing on the wall.
It stinks, but there's only one way out that doesn't involve transferring. And that's just do everything you can to show out in practice, and especially pens. Hope the Coach is watching, and treat the pens like you would a a Game 7 save situation. Go as hard as possible. No one tells these young guys this, but he's fighting for a spot. And he probably didn't realize that treating practice like a competitive battle was the assignment. Tough lesson, because he's indeed behind the 8ball now. But if he gets in midweek, he has to show out. He has to surprise the Coach and give him a reason to consider him. And if he can't manage to do that just use this as fodder for summer/fall improvement for next year. And, frankly, if he's not built to withstand this mental speed bump, then he may not be ready for the job he aspires to. Not meant to be a criticism, but a rally cry for him to just keep pushing himself beyond the place he thought he needed to be.
Adbono;
Where does the young man plan to pitch this Summer? His Summer League is
now his 1st Season in College. His College season is Spring Training.
Bob
On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 2:53 PM HS Baseball Web <alerts@crowdstack.com>
wrote:
Where does the young man plan to pitch this Summer? His Summer League is
now his 1st Season in College. His College season is Spring Training.
Bob
On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 2:53 PM HS Baseball Web <alerts@crowdstack.com>
wrote:
@Consultant posted:Adbono;
Where does the young man plan to pitch this Summer? His Summer League is
now his 1st Season in College. His College season is Spring Training.
Bob
On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 2:53 PM HS Baseball Web <alerts@crowdstack.com>
wrote:
I just learned yesterday that someone on John’s college coaching staff has made arrangements for him to play in the California Collegiate Summer League. Not sure what team.
Adbono;
Maybe he will play for the Healdsburg "Prunepackers" in a 100 year old ballpark.
Bob
John has not seen the game mound since the one and only outing where he threw a total of 5 pitches. He is frustrated and his confidence is taking a beating. He has met with the HC to discuss his situation - so I have heard. It has also gotten back to me that John doesn’t factor into the future plans at his current school. I don’t know for sure if that’s true but his experience so far this year would suggest that it is. All told John’s freshman year (so far) has been a miserable experience and he has burned a year of eligibility.
@adbono posted:John has not seen the game mound since the one and only outing where he threw a total of 5 pitches. He is frustrated and his confidence is taking a beating. He has met with the HC to discuss his situation - so I have heard. It has also gotten back to me that John doesn’t factor into the future plans at his current school. I don’t know for sure if that’s true but his experience so far this year would suggest that it is. All told John’s freshman year (so far) has been a miserable experience and he has burned a year of eligibility.
Well, this underscores the importance of selecting a school based upon opportunity and less upon the name and reputation of the program. The availability of the transfer portal to college baseball coaches has dramatically changed things.
First, and most obvious, is that it allows coaches to get talent with experience from the transfer portal. This is obvious. However the less obvious advantage of the transfer portal to a college baseball coach is that it makes it significantly easier to tell a kid to, "take a hike". Knowing that a college freshman that you have recruited can, "just get in the transfer portal and find another school, you'll be fine" takes a little bit of the human element out of the decision to cut a scholarship player.
As a business owner, I have only once had to sit down with an employee and tell them that they are fired, and I agonized over that uncomfortable decision for weeks. I would like to think that this is true of college coaches (maybe I'm naïve). But with there being a transfer portal its an easy escape for a coach to tell a freshman that they don't factor in the future of the program and they need to put their name in the transfer portal.
Stories like John will be more and more common in years to come, I'm afraid.
I keep reading my 2024 the updates on this thread. This morning he said, "Wow, I feel sorry for John but I can easily see how that could happen to him."
caveat emptor
Some people listen, some people won't. Although our circumstances were different than "John's" @adbono reached out to us and offered his advice. It was free and it was not requested. But it was a valuable tool that confirmed what we believed our situation to be.
If you would have told us after son's sophomore summer that this is where we'd be, I'd have looked at you crazily, but Covid and and ACL changed the shopping list. You learn to adapt or you end up like the dinosaurs. We adapted and son is having a great season at a JUCO starting in CF (366 BA and 526 OBP) and STARTING AND PLAYING almost EVERY GAME.
It's funny, I've had 2 sons go through the whole process (older boy pitched 4 years D1), so I've seen plenty of baseball (high level and not), and more than not I could tell you by watching a kid that was the same age as my boys, whether he had "it" or didn't, and if he would be successful at the level where he was going. It's interesting that ALOT of the so called "studs" that went D1 are actually sitting ALOT this year............and I'm sure they'll be in the portal soon. I've told my boy to be on the lookout for any friends that want an opportunity to play, and recruit them to his school next year.
Nice story. Thank you. If you read my post on another topic, we have a friend whose son needs to go to a Juco. He doesn't want to hear about it right now. Oh well.
I realize that some folks will blame John's coach and some will blame John's folks. His travel coach, if he had one, might be at fault as well. Usually when teams do well, they will use a player like John. When they are not doing well, they won't. There are a lot of P5 programs that have freshman playing, many gave up the draft to go to play in college. They are kicking it!
However D1 baseball is not HS, and it's not travel ball. There is a learning curve and if no one is working with your player at their program, get them out of THERE!
I feel badly for John that the coach burned a red shirt year.
That's despicable.
I found out last night that John is no longer traveling to away games. On the last road trip this team chose to leave 3 players behind and John was one of them. As if this Big12 team needs to cut a few corners?!? Really? No, this was a message sent IMO. At this point I’m pretty sure I know where this is headed.
@adbono posted:I found out last night that John is no longer traveling to away games. On the last road trip this team chose to leave 3 players behind and John was one of them. As if this Big12 team needs to cut a few corners?!? Really? No, this was a message sent IMO. At this point I’m pretty sure I know where this is headed.
You are 100% correct. It is a tactic used to get kids to leave. Here is what not traveling looks like at our P5 program.
6am lift on Thurs, Fri, Sat, and Sunday. You check in with the lift coach at the facility so they know you went. You also go on Tues/Wed if there is a road midweek game. Lift from 6-8.
After the lift you have a 3.5 hour practice from 10:30 am to 1. No coaches just the players who are not traveling and the injured guys. Tell me how 8 kids can practice for almost four hours?
You then go to the facility where you check in again with your badge and you have to sit and watch the game(s) taking notes/charting for probably another 3.5 hours. 8 if it's a double header.
Do this for 16 weeks straight and tell me if you'd want to stay for another year?
Here is the latest update. Read carefully if you are one of the people that believes every player gets coached and all freshmen get developmental instruction.
Last night John had a long conversation with my pitching coaching partner (Mike). Being concerned about John’s mental state, Mike asked a lot of questions. What he learned was that John is on his own. No coaches are watching his bullpens. Nobody is taking video of them either (unless he can get a teammate to do it) so there is no video analysis from any coaches. So far, according to Mike, John is using this experience as motivation. But he also is feeling very defeated. This is a tough way to learn a tough lesson. And you would hope that this experience will lead to John and his parents making a better decision about what to do next. You would hope.
@adbono posted:Here is the latest update. Read carefully if you are one of the people that believes every player gets coached and all freshmen get developmental instruction.
Last night John had a long conversation with my pitching coaching partner (Mike). Being concerned about John’s mental state, Mike asked a lot of questions. What he learned was that John is on his own. No coaches are watching his bullpens. Nobody is taking video of them either (unless he can get a teammate to do it) so there is no video analysis from any coaches. So far, according to Mike, John is using this experience as motivation. But he also is feeling very defeated. This is a tough way to learn a tough lesson. And you would hope that this experience will lead to John and his parents making a better decision about what to do next. You would hope.
Good luck to the young man.
@CollegebaseballInsights posted:Good luck to the young man.
Often your luck is a bi-product of your decisions
Adbono;
It maybe very important to the young man to have a successful College Summer League experience. What do you think? Maybe on the West Coast.
Bob
@Consultant posted:Adbono;
It maybe very important to the young man to have a successful College Summer League experience. What do you think? Maybe on the West Coast.
Bob
You are right, Bob. As usual. That would be the best thing John could do this summer based on current circumstances. But John’s dad is calling the shots and is apparently leaning on an exec at VTool for advice. So he obviously hasn’t learned who to listen to and who to tune out. This development adds to the probability that things could get worse for John instead of better. So far it’s been a blueprint for what not to do.
So I have a kid playing college ball. As such I'll add my .02.
There is no development in college baseball, unless you consider development to consist of being put into a game and expected to perform. Coaches are paid to win games, period. To that ends nor is there any loyalty. That said I have seen DI programs that work with JUCO's, sending down a player they see potential in understanding he may come back later.
My son got the whole "you can stay but you won't play" speech from a B10 school working around taking his scholarship away. Found a mid-tier DI closer to home and after Covid and a year lost to TJ got on the field last year. Missed the first third of the season to injury but still ended up starting left field and being close to the team leaders in runs scored, RBI's, blah, blah, blah. To the point that while being OK with call it quits, they asked him to come back for a 6th year (covid, injury red shirt). FF to this spring and they got a JUCO All American OF'er and they proceeded to give him start after start even though the kid insisted he did no better in practice leading up to the season. The kid has now earned his spot back and all is well. Moral of the story, your kid is a piece of meat, nothing more.
DAD:
Define the word "development".
For 35 years, I have observed the Coaches at SRJC in Santa Rosa and the players, who become professional or advance to a 4 year College have gained knowledge and experience from their 2 years at SRJC.
During this time I coached at SSU & the Cubs N_ Calif. Scout Teams. We played [Sac City] and other JC with our HS players.
Bob
@somebaseballdad. Man, these stories are something else. My kids are never going pro and I care much more about academics. So I don't really care what division they play (other than athletic money sounds good to me). D1 sounds like a great experience for a few and turmoil for many. My 2023 committed to one of the few HA D2s out there in his jr year fall. He then went completely off in the spring HS season winning several awards/1st all state,etc. People started pumping him up, suggesting he decommit and shoot for a D1. I love the fact he is confident but I had to repetitively talk him down and stress long term goals (and repeat stories from here).
The 2025 is now the project. I'm worried his eyes are bigger than his fastball.
@SomeBaseballDad posted:So I have a kid playing college ball. As such I'll add my .02.
There is no development in college baseball, unless you consider development to consist of being put into a game and expected to perform. Coaches are paid to win games, period. To that ends nor is there any loyalty. That said I have seen DI programs that work with JUCO's, sending down a player they see potential in understanding he may come back later.
..............................
There is no development in college baseball? Huh? 100% disagree.
Development is a two way street. The player has to want to learn, and the coach has to be willing to teach. With a staff of 3-4 coaches and a team of 30-35 players I think the player has to initiate their own development. In my work, my team comes up with their own development plan to further their careers. We talk about the development plan and I assist them when asked. Its the same thing.
Stength & conditioning, nutrition, pitching & fielding practice with his position coach 5 days a week, looking at practice and game film, and the opportunity to play college summer baseball. My son didn't exactly play for a D1 baseball powerhouse, but the skills development and opportunities were there for the learning. The position coaches worked hard. He learned new pitches, pitching strategies and approaches as well as stopping the running game. He learned a great pickoff move in college, and word travels fast in a conference of 8 teams. A lot of what he learned he initiated, and the coaches helped him.
Just my experience.
@fenwaysouth, people used to wear suits to work everyday too. A lot has changed in college baseball since your son played. College baseball is now big business. It didn’t used to be. Due to Covid there are now athletes playing 6 years of college baseball. That’s never been the case before. There is an over supply of players like never before too. Add the impact of the transfer portal and NIL and you have chaos. Many top programs (especially D1s) don’t want to spend 2 years developing a freshman that may or may not work out when, for the same scholarship dollars, they can get 2 proven players out of the transfer portal. It’s both less risk and a better ROI. It’s a business decision. It’s also easier and you get your return sooner. It’s an easier, more efficient business model. In theory and for right now. But a lot of schools have adopted it. I know this because, not only do I see it happening with my own eyes, more than a few D1 coaches have told me that this is what they are doing. Comparing development in the workplace to development in college baseball is a reach at best. You are talking about adults vs 18 yr old kids. But you wouldn’t see college players signing up for Tread Athletics at $500/mo if they were being developed at their schools. I’m glad that your son had a good experience. It’s the kid that everyone hopes for. But right now that experience only exists for a fraction of college players. And what makes up that fraction are the players that have position coaches that actively teach the game. Even then those position coaches may only be helping the players that are on the field contributing. There would not be so many posters that currently have sons playing college baseball talking about the lack of development if it wasn’t a real issue. They problem with this issue, as with many others, is that if your player didn’t experience it then it’s sometimes hard to believe. But there is a reason that so many Drivelines, Treads, etc have popped up over the last 10 years. And the reason is that there is a huge appetite for development that isn’t being satisfied in college baseball. Right now is a great time to be one of the very best players in college baseball. It’s a terrible time to be anything less than that.
And I will add this as an afterthought. Even if you do have a position coach that is actively trying to teach and develop players there is a possibility that he isn’t very good at it. His direction may be more hurtful than helpful. What if a PC decides that your son will be the subject of his sidearm experiment and makes him change his arm slot. And then that doesn’t work out and your player has to change back. Now let’s mention the inevitable injury that occurred somewhere in that process. Sound crazy? It does to me but it goes on a lot because it’s fashionable for every PC to have a sidearm thrower on their staff. So they try to create one. And in doing so often wreck a kid’s career. That’s just one example.
@adbono posted:@fenwaysouth, people used to wear suits to work everyday too. A lot has changed in college baseball since your son played. College baseball is now big business. It didn’t used to be. Due to Covid there are now athletes playing 6 years of college baseball. That’s never been the case before. There is an over supply of players like never before too. Add the impact of the transfer portal and NIL and you have chaos. Many top programs (especially D1s) don’t want to spend 2 years developing a freshman that may or may not work out when, for the same scholarship dollars, they can get 2 proven players out of the transfer portal. It’s both less risk and a better ROI. It’s a business decision. It’s also easier and you get your return sooner. It’s an easier, more efficient business model. In theory and for right now. But a lot of schools have adopted it. I know this because, not only do I see it happening with my own eyes, more than a few D1 coaches have told me that this is what they are doing. Comparing development in the workplace to development in college baseball is a reach at best. You are talking about adults vs 18 yr old kids. But you wouldn’t see college players signing up for Tread Athletics at $500/mo if they were being developed at their schools. I’m glad that your son had a good experience. It’s the kid that everyone hopes for. But right now that experience only exists for a fraction of college players. And what makes up that fraction are the players that have position coaches that actively teach the game. Even then those position coaches may only be helping the players that are on the field contributing. There would not be so many posters that currently have sons playing college baseball talking about the lack of development if it wasn’t a real issue. They problem with this issue, as with many others, is that if your player didn’t experience it then it’s sometimes hard to believe. But there is a reason that so many Drivelines, Treads, etc have popped up over the last 10 years. And the reason is that there is a huge appetite for development that isn’t being satisfied in college baseball. Right now is a great time to be one of the very best players in college baseball. It’s a terrible time to be anything less than that.
Fair enough, you've convinced me somewhat. Yes, my son has been out for about 10 years. So this explanation makes sense to me given Covid 6-year NCAA rules. It's got to be a difficult pill to swallow if your son is playing college baseball (hopefully under some kind of scholly) and the parent/player is paying for the education, athletic opportunity, and then on top of that they're paying for Tread/DriveLine at $500/month because their coach can't spare the time or is unwilling to develop his own player. I can tell you without hesitation that if my son was in the position today, he would not have played college baseball for a handful of reasons. Essentially, the coach is acknowledging he'd rather spend the balance of his time recruiting JUCO players that have been previously trained by another coach than working with his current players. If this is the true state of college baseball this paints a pretty freaking sad and vastly different picture of college coaches than just a few years ago. I'll take your word on it @adbono
BTW....My Dad wore a suit to work! Not me! 
My son left college baseball last year. This wasn't his experience. He was a Sunday starter for about a month before COVID, came back post COVID as a sometimes starter, sometimes reliever, etc. He was coached. He had coaches at his bullpen's, reviewing video, texting with him when he was away from school on break or whatever. And yes, they also talked with him about whether something like driveline would be useful to him and they made recommendations on other resources he could consult. He had two different PCs during his time at Iowa, I think he still asks for their advice from time to time.
Part of it may be that the University of Iowa is going to struggle to recruit people to come here (other than Iowans) unless they show a serious track record of making players better. It also may be that we just got lucky. Either way, feel terrible for kids who don't encounter that support.
I don't know why people make it seem like 4 coaches for 35 players is a problem. It's not like they work a 9-5 and then go coach college baseball. It's what they do. Development is one of the job requirements along with recruiting players that they can develop.
It's a pretty sad commentary that it is normal for a pitcher to not have success and the coaching staff not actively working with the player to get some value out of him. Maybe the kid isn't a weekend starter, but maybe he can be by the time he's a junior. Maybe he isn't a closer, but he might be a guy who comes in and throws to two lefties, maybe he's long relief, maybe he's short relief. Wouldn't you want one of the guys you were invested in to succeed? I don't understand the seek help argument. If the PC can't see that velo is down, there are mechanical issues, can't alter prep work/throwing programs then I find that to be really pathetic.
One of mine is having a bit of a velo problem. Sometimes it's lower than it was in HS and when it's down he's getting hit more. I think it's a problem that he was told to go spend a month at driveline this summer in lieu of playing in a summer league. I think it's annoying that he has too many credits for any type of transfer to be worth it academically or financially. I think it's a problem that two freshman who struggled were told to leave and they've both been drafted since.
I get it - there are some cutting edge coaches who care about their kids and turn them into better players. I also understand that there are plenty of players who don't work hard, don't eat right, don't put in extra work and they can't be helped. But there is a meaty chunk of players in programs that are subject to the numbers game and it sucks that there are contributors who don't get the opportunity because it's too inconvenient for a coaching staff to *coach*
@adbono posted:@fenwaysouth, people used to wear suits to work everyday too. A lot has changed in college baseball since your son played. College baseball is now big business. It didn’t used to be. Due to Covid there are now athletes playing 6 years of college baseball. That’s never been the case before. There is an over supply of players like never before too. Add the impact of the transfer portal and NIL and you have chaos. Many top programs (especially D1s) don’t want to spend 2 years developing a freshman that may or may not work out when, for the same scholarship dollars, they can get 2 proven players out of the transfer portal. It’s both less risk and a better ROI. It’s a business decision. It’s also easier and you get your return sooner. It’s an easier, more efficient business model. In theory and for right now. But a lot of schools have adopted it. I know this because, not only do I see it happening with my own eyes, more than a few D1 coaches have told me that this is what they are doing. Comparing development in the workplace to development in college baseball is a reach at best. You are talking about adults vs 18 yr old kids. But you wouldn’t see college players signing up for Tread Athletics at $500/mo if they were being developed at their schools. I’m glad that your son had a good experience. It’s the kid that everyone hopes for. But right now that experience only exists for a fraction of college players. And what makes up that fraction are the players that have position coaches that actively teach the game. Even then those position coaches may only be helping the players that are on the field contributing. There would not be so many posters that currently have sons playing college baseball talking about the lack of development if it wasn’t a real issue. They problem with this issue, as with many others, is that if your player didn’t experience it then it’s sometimes hard to believe. But there is a reason that so many Drivelines, Treads, etc have popped up over the last 10 years. And the reason is that there is a huge appetite for development that isn’t being satisfied in college baseball. Right now is a great time to be one of the very best players in college baseball. It’s a terrible time to be anything less than that.
There are two conversations to be had regarding D1. There are those programs who are either competing for the CWS or believe they are. Then there's the rest of D1. An Ivy isn't going to load up on transfers and JuCo players. A lot of the rest of D1 aren't going to have the recruiting budget, facilities or access to NIL money to lure players and have high turnover. But, for P5s and a handful of other teams roster spots have become the Wild West. Even before recruiting became the Wild West about half of freshmen transferred from their first stop.
@fenwaysouth posted:There is no development in college baseball? Huh? 100% disagree.
Development is a two way street. The player has to want to learn, and the coach has to be willing to teach. With a staff of 3-4 coaches and a team of 30-35 players I think the player has to initiate their own development. In my work, my team comes up with their own development plan to further their careers. We talk about the development plan and I assist them when asked. Its the same thing.
Stength & conditioning, nutrition, pitching & fielding practice with his position coach 5 days a week, looking at practice and game film, and the opportunity to play college summer baseball. My son didn't exactly play for a D1 baseball powerhouse, but the skills development and opportunities were there for the learning. The position coaches worked hard. He learned new pitches, pitching strategies and approaches as well as stopping the running game. He learned a great pickoff move in college, and word travels fast in a conference of 8 teams. A lot of what he learned he initiated, and the coaches helped him.
Just my experience.
I agree with the above.
Coaching is teaching and achieving goals. It should include all that Fenway mentioned. The coach and staff have an obligation to help the player to achieve those goals. It can be achieved differently in different programs. As pointed out by Fenway, there are many involved in helping players to achieve their best results. We all know it takes a village to raise a child, same goes for athletes.
Sorry to repeat this story. It's about Florida's Wyatt Langford. He didn't play much as a freshman. He wasn't happy and decided the change had to come from within. He changed everything about himself, his diet, his workouts, his practices, his attitude. Hours in the cages, hours in the gym. Players that hold themselves to a higher standard, usually succeed. It's those that think they are owed more than they are getting usually don't succeed. There are those players who can blame the coaches all they want but I will bet that they have been given opportunities and tools to succeed but don't work as hard at becoming better when left on their own. It's always easy to blame someone else.
Back to Wyatt. He was recently injured while fouling a ball off of his groin and ruptured a testical. Required immediate surgery. Wasn't sure of prognosis and how long he had to rehab, was back in the game after 2 weeks. Can't keep a good man down! The best part, the team held it together while waiting for his return.
I just found out recently that quite a few hitters while son was in college, sought out better hitting instruction. One drafted first round. So this is not a new thing, it's been going on for years. There are many D1 programs that have their players evaluated by outside sources to see where the player is deficient. Goals are set to help the player improve. FAU evaluated players with the Cressey team. The athletic trainer is made aware of the needs and monitors the results. Again, it takes a village. A player cannot succeed unless he/ she is physically able to compete. There are training centers everywhere. Here in FL, you will find pros, college players, HS and youth players in the gym and all types of players in the cages.
IMO, if a parent wants to spend their money on additional training, that's their business. Coaches only have so much time allowed to work with players. After their allotted instruction, it's up to the player to follow through on what he needs to work on to improve. That's on them, not the coach. How many of your players work their butts off every chance they can?
Now about John. I want to know, has John done everything he can to improve his game, on his own? Sounds like Johns dad is involved. Fall and spring instruction are long over, time to stop blaming the staff and get to work.
@TPM, I believe that John has done all that he can to get better. I know it’s not always the case but with John I believe the school is the one at fault.
@adbono posted:And I will add this as an afterthought. Even if you do have a position coach that is actively trying to teach and develop players there is a possibility that he isn’t very good at it. His direction may be more hurtful than helpful. What if a PC decides that your son will be the subject of his sidearm experiment and makes him change his arm slot. And then that doesn’t work out and your player has to change back. Now let’s mention the inevitable injury that occurred somewhere in that process. Sound crazy? It does to me but it goes on a lot because it’s fashionable for every PC to have a sidearm thrower on their staff. So they try to create one. And in doing so often wreck a kid’s career. That’s just one example.
100%. We had 2 guys from our recruiting class turned into sidearmers. Both have dealt with injuries off and on. Although it was never mentioned to us, my son’s arm slot was changed the minute he stepped on campus. When it doesn’t work, you are left to figure it out. Happens with hitters too. Even when it’s not broke, sometimes they need to “fix” it.
@fenwaysouth posted:There is no development in college baseball? Huh? 100% disagree.
That's your prerogative.
The kid went as a two way. His freshman year the team had like 4-5 pitchers go down with injuries, so the staff pushed him into PO. I'm not going into detail but.. we picked this school based on the HC. The PC coach ended up being a problem. PO didn't work out, so sophomore year it was back to position player. Thing is he had lost a year seeing live pitching, so the start of the season he struggled and was benched. At the time he still had a very high level MLB scout working with him. In a conversation with him he stated that college coaches were under such pressure to win that they has no time to let a player dig himself out of a slump. To that point, if the team lost a couple, three, four games in a row the forums would fill up with "fire the coach/lets go a different direction" threads.
BTW, the first batter the kid faced right out of HS was Nick Madrigal.
For those who read this and don't know the people involved, fenway's son went to an Ivy League school, most of the other people are posting about experiences at P5 schools. It's kind of like apples and oranges.
There are many people who would like to coach baseball. Are most of them no good at development? Are the ones who are good scooped up by MLB/MiLB? Or earning more money working for Driveline or Tread?
In other words, is the problem (a) there aren't enough pitching coaches at the college level who are capable of developing their players, (b) most coaches have to do too many other things and don't have time to develop their players, or (c) most coaches don't see the need to try to develop their players because they can easily bring in transfers who have been developed by someone else?
And, how do these juco and lower-level schools' coaches have more skills or more time to develop their players than the P5 coaches?
It’s extremely difficult to be an impact player at the college level as a freshman, regardless of the coaching. My son was not an impact freshman at the Juco level.
IMO the combination of relationships with the coaching staff, ability, execution, perceived ceiling, work ethic, timing and luck all play into every players’ college opportunity. I’ve seen players at the Juco level that didn’t get opportunity, change school, and thrive. I watched a physically dominant freshman get no playing time at a P5 school, transfer to a Juco and get drafted in the 1st round.
Some coaches add a lot of value to some players and none to others. I know my son values what he learned from working his pitching coach at the D1 level.
I’m a I’ll put gas in the car, you need to drive parent and my son has owned his development choices since HS. I’d have liked him to play college summer ball, but he always chose to train. He felt he needed to supplement his college coaching in the offseason to be his best (now it’s his job, and he still trains the entire offseason).
This is a great thread because it has evolved into firsthand stories of college experience. No two are the same and there is no blueprint. Just real life examples of what can happen.
@JucoDad posted:It’s extremely difficult to be an impact player at the college level as a freshman, regardless of the coaching. My son was not an impact freshman at the Juco level.
IMO the combination of relationships with the coaching staff, ability, execution, perceived ceiling, work ethic, timing and luck all play into every players’ college opportunity. I’ve seen players at the Juco level that didn’t get opportunity, change school, and thrive. I watched a physically dominant freshman get no playing time at a P5 school, transfer to a Juco and get drafted in the 1st round.
Some coaches add a lot of value to some players and none to others. I know my son values what he learned from working his pitching coach at the D1 level.
I’m a I’ll put gas in the car, you need to drive parent and my son has owned his development choices since HS. I’d have liked him to play college summer ball, but he always chose to train. He felt he needed to supplement his college coaching in the offseason to be his best (now it’s his job, and he still trains the entire offseason).
Refreshing post Jucodad.
Thank you!
I think it’s important to note than winning and developing are not always the same thing. Coaches that are highly paid, win. If you are lucky, they also care about the kids and develop them both as players and men. That is rare. MLB coaches manage. College is becoming more of a management gig with the portal and NIL. They (more and more) prefer you to develop elsewhere and they will “bring you up” when you are ready.
@baseballhs posted:I think it’s important to note than winning and developing are not always the same thing. Coaches that are highly paid, win. If you are lucky, they also care about the kids and develop them both as players and men. That is rare. MLB coaches manage. College is becoming more of a management gig with the portal and NIL. They (more and more) prefer you to develop elsewhere and they will “bring you up” when you are ready.
Very well said. This is the reality for most players.
adbono, baseballhs
I find it kind of shocking that the Big12 and Big10 have only 1 or 2 teams (combined) in the top 25 RPI. Does this have to do with the programs in those conferences lack of development, NLI $, use of the portal or that other teams are just working harder at getting better?
@anotherparent posted:For those who read this and don't know the people involved, fenway's son went to an Ivy League school, most of the other people are posting about experiences at P5 schools. It's kind of like apples and oranges.
..........................................
True, but I think the real difference is Covid and NCAA transfer policies that have thrown a monkey wrench in the development of a typical 4-5 year D1 baseball career outward to a 6 year baseball college baseball career including graduate transfers in some cases. This is the big development change that coaches are dealing with or not dealing with as the case may be. adbono did a pretty good job of convincing me this is at the heart of the development issue, and I believe it.
In the fast moving world of Information Technology this is known as the "build vs buy" continuum. College baseball coaches seem to adopted this mindset. I can "buy" talent easier, faster, quicker to compete than I can "build" which is less expensive but takes more time.
JMO.
@TPM posted:adbono, baseballhs
I find it kind of shocking that the Big12 and Big10 have only 1 or 2 teams (combined) in the top 25 RPI. Does this have to do with the programs in those conferences lack of development, NLI $, use of the portal or that other teams are just working harder at getting better?
Big10 is definitely the weakest P5, but the conference has been really down since COVID hit. UCLA/USC will make it a stronger conference. I think traveling for the first month of the season hurts a lot of these schools. Playing higher RPI teams after having limited outdoor work is not a recipe for success. Usually by the end of the season the programs at the top turn the early season struggles around and typically make nice runs in the tournament - typically 2 in finals of regionals each year.
I also think there are a few teams that are better than their RPI (TCU, Tech, Iowa) but that is neither here nor there.
Big 12 baseball will be interesting. A year or two ago adding Houston, Cincy, and UCF would have been the best possible way to offset Texas and Oklahoma leaving. Houston has been an interesting team this year - some really good wins with an average record. UCF has been down since starting red hot. I hope they stay competitive heading into the Big 12, they have solid baseball.
@fenwaysouth posted:True, but I think the real difference is Covid and NCAA transfer policies that have thrown a monkey wrench in the development of a typical 4-5 year D1 baseball career outward to a 6 year baseball college baseball career including graduate transfers in some cases. This is the big development change that coaches are dealing with or not dealing with as the case may be. adbono did a pretty good job of convincing me this is at the heart of the development issue, and I believe it.
In the fast moving world of Information Technology this is known as the "build vs buy" continuum. College baseball coaches seem to adopted this mindset. I can "buy" talent easier, faster, quicker to compete than I can "build" which is less expensive but takes more time.
JMO.
Well said. I will take issue with your last sentence however and I will explain why in a hypothetical example. Say a HS pitcher that would normally be recruited hard by good D1 programs believes he deserves a 50% scholarship. He believes this because every travel ball coach and PC that he has ever had have told him how great he is. Then he sees VTool, PBR, and PG touting him on social media. So he is sold that the market price for his services is a 50% deal - but he is assuming these are normal times. And they are not. Right now the D1 schools have the option of plucking proven players out of the transfer portal. Besides being proven the players in the portal are hungry. Many have already been slighted once. Many don’t care how much money they get. They just want an opportunity to play. So for that same 50% a school can get 2 or 3 proven guys out of the portal instead of 1 HS kid that may or may not pan out. And they avoid having to convince the HS player that he isn’t worth what he thinks he is. So in the current college baseball business model “buying” is actually cheaper than “building.” One of many problems, as I see it, is the issue of culture. Culture is much easier to build than buy.
Although I’m not sure, most coaches ever looked at a P5 HS commit as a four year deal, I think they now look at it more as a one year trial in terms of freshman. If you come in as a freshman and they don’t see immediately that you are ready to go, you won’t be there your second year. In our program, there are 6 remaining of the 14 that showed up last year. Five are on the current roster.
The rule that P5 scholarships have to be for 4 years is pretty recent. Perhaps they should go back to the old system, of only guaranteeing one year at a time, since that's how they are operating in practice.
@anotherparent posted:The rule that P5 scholarships have to be for 4 years is pretty recent. Perhaps they should go back to the old system, of only guaranteeing one year at a time, since that's how they are operating in practice.
I think it started in 2016 or 2017.
@fenwaysouth posted:True, but I think the real difference is Covid and NCAA transfer policies that have thrown a monkey wrench in the development of a typical 4-5 year D1 baseball career outward to a 6 year baseball college baseball career including graduate transfers in some cases. This is the big development change that coaches are dealing with or not dealing with as the case may be. adbono did a pretty good job of convincing me this is at the heart of the development issue, and I believe it.
In the fast moving world of Information Technology this is known as the "build vs buy" continuum. College baseball coaches seem to adopted this mindset. I can "buy" talent easier, faster, quicker to compete than I can "build" which is less expensive but takes more time.
JMO.
I can say this has changed my son's HA D3. They have at least 4 players that are covid or xfers. This is the first time the team has done this many and I would suspect given their success it will not end. I told my kid you are 100% on my 4 year plan or find a good student loan provider.
@anotherparent posted:The rule that P5 scholarships have to be for 4 years is pretty recent. Perhaps they should go back to the old system, of only guaranteeing one year at a time, since that's how they are operating in practice.
I don’t even hate Gundy’s idea that you sign a 1,2,3 or 4 year scholarship deal….but it actually means something on both sides.
@adbono posted:Here is the latest update. Read carefully if you are one of the people that believes every player gets coached and all freshmen get developmental instruction.
Last night John had a long conversation with my pitching coaching partner (Mike). Being concerned about John’s mental state, Mike asked a lot of questions. What he learned was that John is on his own. No coaches are watching his bullpens. Nobody is taking video of them either (unless he can get a teammate to do it) so there is no video analysis from any coaches. So far, according to Mike, John is using this experience as motivation. But he also is feeling very defeated. This is a tough way to learn a tough lesson. And you would hope that this experience will lead to John and his parents making a better decision about what to do next. You would hope.
pretty much par for the course with us also...
@adbono posted:@fenwaysouth, people used to wear suits to work everyday too. A lot has changed in college baseball since your son played. College baseball is now big business. It didn’t used to be. Due to Covid there are now athletes playing 6 years of college baseball. That’s never been the case before. There is an over supply of players like never before too. Add the impact of the transfer portal and NIL and you have chaos. Many top programs (especially D1s) don’t want to spend 2 years developing a freshman that may or may not work out when, for the same scholarship dollars, they can get 2 proven players out of the transfer portal. It’s both less risk and a better ROI. It’s a business decision. It’s also easier and you get your return sooner. It’s an easier, more efficient business model. In theory and for right now. But a lot of schools have adopted it. I know this because, not only do I see it happening with my own eyes, more than a few D1 coaches have told me that this is what they are doing. Comparing development in the workplace to development in college baseball is a reach at best. You are talking about adults vs 18 yr old kids. But you wouldn’t see college players signing up for Tread Athletics at $500/mo if they were being developed at their schools. I’m glad that your son had a good experience. It’s the kid that everyone hopes for. But right now that experience only exists for a fraction of college players. And what makes up that fraction are the players that have position coaches that actively teach the game. Even then those position coaches may only be helping the players that are on the field contributing. There would not be so many posters that currently have sons playing college baseball talking about the lack of development if it wasn’t a real issue. They problem with this issue, as with many others, is that if your player didn’t experience it then it’s sometimes hard to believe. But there is a reason that so many Drivelines, Treads, etc have popped up over the last 10 years. And the reason is that there is a huge appetite for development that isn’t being satisfied in college baseball. Right now is a great time to be one of the very best players in college baseball. It’s a terrible time to be anything less than that.
Nailed it - 1 billion % !
@fishnsail posted:Nailed it - 1 billion % !
Thank you. I’m here all week. Try the veal and don’t forget to tip your waitress!
@adbono posted:Thank you. I’m here all week. Try the veal and don’t forget to tip your waitress!
LOL.. I had the lasagna..
honestly though -this site should bookmark that post and highlight it for all the HS players /parents and future/current college players with unknown expectations.
An eye opener it has been and no truer words have been spoken(or written or whatever)...
the game has changed and keeps changing not that fluidly at times.
Adbono, fishnsail, TPM;
Game has not changed. Players need 4 of the 6 tools to succeed. Coaches need the experience to recognize the player's toolbox. Parents need the knowledge to prepare the young man at age 14 for his future College opportunity.
Question: why have a rooster of 40 when only 20 will play?
Bob
@Consultant posted:Adbono, fishnsail, TPM;
Game has not changed. Players need 4 of the 6 tools to succeed. Coaches need the experience to recognize the player's toolbox. Parents need the knowledge to prepare the young man at age 14 for his future College opportunity.
Bob,
Some may disagree but I get what you are saying.
@SomeBaseballDad posted:That's your prerogative.
The kid went as a two way. His freshman year the team had like 4-5 pitchers go down with injuries, so the staff pushed him into PO. I'm not going into detail but.. we picked this school based on the HC. The PC coach ended up being a problem. PO didn't work out, so sophomore year it was back to position player. Thing is he had lost a year seeing live pitching, so the start of the season he struggled and was benched. At the time he still had a very high level MLB scout working with him. In a conversation with him he stated that college coaches were under such pressure to win that they have no time to let a player dig himself out of a slump. To that point, if the team lost a couple, three, four games in a row the forums would fill up with "fire the coach/lets go a different direction" threads.
BTW, the first batter the kid faced right out of HS was Nick Madrigal.
Wanted to point out a correction here. In the original post it read "coaches were under such pressure they have time to let a player dig himself out of a slump". Changed it to read have no time.
@adbono posted:This is a great thread because it has evolved into firsthand stories of college experience. No two are the same and there is no blueprint. Just real life examples of what can happen.
OK, so here goes. The kid could have been drafted right out of HS, but like rounds 30-40. I was under no illusion that the kid would ever step foot on an MLB field, so I said no. I wanted him to have the college experience. The kid went as a two-way but pitching was an afterthought although he was pretty dam good at it. So, as I said his college team had some injuries. Now, here's some advice, be careful what you say, because in interviews prior to the season the kid said, "I'll do whatever I can to help". So when the HC asked him to do PO he threw that statement back in his face.
As to the scout, he became the director of scouting for an MLB team while going out of his was to help the kid find a new college after he refused to be a PO for a new coach and promptly being dismissed. The next year he had to have TJ and that was it. The guy never responded to a text or call from the kid again. He did a lot for the kid and for that I'll always be grateful, but the whole not returning a call thing.... that was disappointing.
@PABaseball posted:Big10 is definitely the weakest P5, but the conference has been really down since COVID hit. UCLA/USC will make it a stronger conference. I think traveling for the first month of the season hurts a lot of these schools. Playing higher RPI teams after having limited outdoor work is not a recipe for success. Usually by the end of the season the programs at the top turn the early season struggles around and typically make nice runs in the tournament - typically 2 in finals of regionals each year.
I also think there are a few teams that are better than their RPI (TCU, Tech, Iowa) but that is neither here nor there.
Big 12 baseball will be interesting. A year or two ago adding Houston, Cincy, and UCF would have been the best possible way to offset Texas and Oklahoma leaving. Houston has been an interesting team this year - some really good wins with an average record. UCF has been down since starting red hot. I hope they stay competitive heading into the Big 12, they have solid baseball.
We are top 25 RPI and 2-1 vs B10. Another mid-week B10 game then Vanderbilt next week. I understand both will not start their best pitchers but still a yardstick for our team. I'd assume we'll get our buts kicked as we are not deep pitching wise.
@SomeBaseballDad posted:We are top 25 RPI and 2-1 vs B10. Another mid-week B10 game then Vanderbilt next week. I understand both will not start their best pitchers but still a yardstick for our team. I'd assume we'll get our buts kicked as we are not deep pitching wise.
I don't think the conference is weak by any stretch - just not near the level of ACC or SEC top to bottom.
If your son is at the school I think he is - I think it's a very underrated program and they will fare well. Midweeks are usually higher scoring, uglier games anyway.
This is a great thread! I hope parents in this situation really pay attention to these experiences. Like someone mentioned on here, for the studs it usually turns out great in D1. The others not so much. Several in my son's class committed to OK State. Only one remains as a hitter, the rest went to the portal or dropped down to D2. One was drafted. One was at OK State and played very little and transferred to another D1 and was drafted b a mlb team. There are several pitchers from the area on the team, but most of OK State hitters are not from Oklahoma.
As far as development, I can speak for son's school (D2). Right now, this year there is no hitting coach. If a player goes in a slump he's on his own to figure it out. My son relies on his hs coach to help but he's in the middle of his season and has a large, young family and isnt available often. Last year we had a hitting coach and son had a big year power wise. That coach left and this year his power numbers are way down. I guess what I'm saying is that development is basically on their own. Ive offered mine to go to a hitting instructor locally but he has little time and I dont think he wants to see one on the outside, but idk why that is. Players that play for a school that has a good or great hitting/pitching coach should consider themselves very fortunate. It would be wonderful to have that extra pair of eyes available to help when things go south or just need a little tweak here and there.
Ed;
Does your son have access to game films? He can study his swings in 2 segments. Upper half {waist up to eyes] and lower half [waist down to feet]. One half could be the problem not the "whole".
Also use the full length mirror to practice his swing. The majority of "hitting" slumps are vision. Not tracking the pitch from release point to the catchers mitt. When your pitcher warms up in the bullpen stand next to the plate and "track" the ball.
Watch Juan Soto {Padres] when he tracks the pitch. Also his swing stays in the "strike path" longer than the majority of MLB hitters.
Bob
thanks Bob. I will share your thoughts with him.
Interesting comments from Dickie V. Same applies to college baseball.
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@SomeBaseballDad posted:We are top 25 RPI and 2-1 vs B10. Another mid-week B10 game then Vanderbilt next week. I understand both will not start their best pitchers but still a yardstick for our team. I'd assume we'll get our buts kicked as we are not deep pitching wise.
OK, I need to stop posting after a day of watching baseball and drinking beer. I'll also add that I'm not a hugh baseball fan, so when the kid was out at the beginning of the season with a rib injury I wasn't following closely. We played Iowa the first game of the season. And we played Michigan St two games, all losses. Kid didn't play any of those games so that explains the L's. 
Also a win vs Illinois, so that makes us 3-4 vs B10 with a game vs Purdue tomorrow. After that it gets pretty tough for the next two weeks, with two weekend conference series vs good teams sandwiching a visit to Vandy.
SBD,
Indiana State plays a good non conference schedule. A few of the teams have players whose parents post here.
The baseball world is pretty small.
@TPM posted:SBD,
Indiana State plays a good non conference schedule. A few of the teams have players whose parents post here.
The baseball world is pretty small.
I was about to reply to PAbaseball and let him know for sure it's ISU. No reason to hide anything now, here at the end of it all. I'll miss the kid in that uniform, I think he fills it out well. We made a big mistake not coming here out of HS, but Nebraska offered 90% as a two way (the kid can really pitch, and the new HC offered to honor it as a PO, but the kid has always been "I love playing baseball, and pitchers don't play baseball" so he said no. Anyway, we were greedy I guess and went with the money.
A clip from a couple of weeks ago. Had another to RC caught a couple of feet from the fence, and another in left that was over the fence but the LF'er made a great play on it. Almost a 3 HR day. I can't tell you how many balls he's had caught on the track this year. A few feet from 15+ HR's, and that's after missing three weeks with an injury. Anyway, what's the old saying, that and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee. That said, 401 to the fence. IDK how far the hitters eye sits behind the fence but the ball hits 2/3 of the way up it.
@SomeBaseballDad, posts after a day of drinking are some of the best ! Don’t stop now!!
In other recruiting news…….
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Wait, what? That needs a new thread!
Knock yourself out.
@SomeBaseballDad posted:
Nice. That ball was absolutely jacked to CF.
@fenwaysouth posted:Nice. That ball was absolutely jacked to CF.
Good description. No doubter over the batters eye qualifies for those type of descriptions.
Here is the latest update on John. He has not seen the mound again since his one and only appearance this season. Word is that he is in the doghouse with his coaches. I suspect that something happened to put him there. But nobody is saying what that something is. I was scouting a potential recruit at a local HS game last week and, as luck would have it, I sat next to the VTool guy that is currently advising John’s parents. And we had an interesting conversation. Unlike a lot of people in his position, this guy has a solid baseball background (both as player & coach) and I liked him. Turns out he is giving good advice and John’s parents aren’t listening to him either. You can lead a horse to water but…….
@PitchingFan posted:I still say it is a dual problem. Which comes first chicken or the egg?
The coaches are afraid if the player does not start as a freshman they will not stay so why should I invest in a kid who probably won't be here next year. The player who doesn't start as a freshman thinks he will get cut so why invest the extra time to still not get to play. Both are hurting themselves and others. I think it is rare the coach who invests in the guy who won't help him until 2/3 years down the road and the player who stays with the program even though he may not start until his junior or senior
But wouldn’t the coaches want to get the younger or less experienced guys ready, in case of injuries to the starters? IMO, depth of roster is what wins championships.
For those still following John’s train wreck of a journey, here is the latest. And there is good news and bad news. The good news is that John has realized that, for whatever reason, he is no longer wanted at his current school and he will most certainly transfer. So he has a chance to get back on the right track. In theory. But John’s dad has hatched a master plan and that’s the bad news. You see John’s younger brother is a 4 star recruit as a HS wide receiver. He has over 20 D1 football offers. Dad wants both kids at the same school so he is trying to coordinate John’s transfer with the younger son’s football commitment. How is that for a plot twist? It’s not often that you see the same train wreck twice in one year but that’s where we are headed IMO.
Adbono;
Yes, the U of Colorado. Coach Sanders can coach baseball. Perfect fit.
Bob
@Consultant posted:Adbono;
Yes, the U of Colorado. Coach Sanders can coach baseball. Perfect fit.
Bob
Ha! Good call!
@adbono posted:For those still following John’s train wreck of a journey, here is the latest. And there is good news and bad news. The good news is that John has realized that, for whatever reason, he is no longer wanted at his current school and he will most certainly transfer. So he has a chance to get back on the right track. In theory. But John’s dad has hatched a master plan and that’s the bad news. You see John’s younger brother is a 4 star recruit as a HS wide receiver. He has over 20 D1 football offers. Dad wants both kids at the same school so he is trying to coordinate John’s transfer with the younger son’s football commitment. How is that for a plot twist? It’s not often that you see the same train wreck twice in one year but that’s where we are headed IMO.
How could anyone do something like that? Zero self awareness. If I’m one of the 20 D1 coaches, I’m running the other way, as fast as I can. I bet that guy is the type that would call the kids college coach if kids not playing
First I hope the OP doesn't mind me posting this here. Don't want to start a thread on the main board. Just an update on some things we talked about earlier.
So I had mentioned the kids team had some big games coming up. Two three game series against some tough Conference teams with a trip to Vanderbilt sandwiched in. Well the kids went 7-0 with a 10-1 win over Vanderbilt. I don't care how high your rank, walk 11 people and bad things might happen. So now in the top 10 RPI, and ranked in the top 25 in a couple different polls.
@RoadRunner posted:How could anyone do something like that? Zero self awareness. If I’m one of the 20 D1 coaches, I’m running the other way, as fast as I can. I bet that guy is the type that would call the kids college coach if kids not playing
Dad has stopped short of calling college coaches to complain. Barely. But he is no doubt hurting John’s chances of having a good college career.
@adbono posted:Dad has stopped short of calling college coaches to complain. Barely. But he is no doubt hurting John’s chances of having a good college career.
This is likely not a popular statement, but I also have sympathy for the dad in this story. All of us on this message board are fathers, and as a father, you want your children to accomplish their goals. I can't help but think of all of the effort, money, emotions etc... that these parents have invested in assisting John achieve his dream of playing baseball. And here they find themselves with a year of disappointment and frustration. This is a fear that I have. And maybe, I'm to far on the spectacle spectrum. But, I continue to hear and read about players getting recruited, arriving on campus, and then things completely turn sour. These scenarios ending in a kid looking for another school, and parents wondering where it all went wrong.
My son is a 2024 pitcher committed to a school in a one bid conference (So, low D1). I am constantly asking myself if we are going to find ourselves in John and his families position. Now, I have been watching the school that my son is committed to all year, and I believe that my son's ability are very comparable to the players that are seeing the pitching mound currently. This leads me to believe that he can find success and playing time there, but when I have conversations with dad's and they are sharing stories about how their sons were recruited, signed, enrolled, and by Thanksgiving of their Freshman season told they wouldn't be on the roster, it gets me thinking.
I heard an SEC head coach state last August at a camp that he was going to tell 10 players on their roster that they need to put their name in the transfer portal before Thanksgiving. We have also read stories on this message board of signing classes with 14 reporting in the Fall, and only 5 still on the roster in the spring. So, while we as parents always look with optimism and joy about our son's college baseball future, we have to remember that for a large number of us, much like John's family, there may be just as much heartache as there will be joy.
So, while John's dad may very well be a bumbling buffoon, I can't help but have sympathy for John and his family as they go through this experience.
@Ster, we would all do well to remember that baseball can be a cruel mistress. Sometimes you can do all the right things and still end up with unfair results. I spent 3 years developing John as a pitcher. So I know his dad decently well and he is no buffoon. But like soooo many parents, he over estimates his kids’ abilities. And won’t listen to anyone that doesn’t share his misperceptions. He means well but he is causing problems - not fixing them.
@adbono posted:@Ster, we would all do well to remember that baseball can be a cruel mistress. Sometimes you can do all the right things and still end up with unfair results. I spent 3 years developing John as a pitcher. So I know his dad decently well and he is no buffoon. But like soooo many parents, he over estimates his kids’ abilities. And won’t listen to anyone that doesn’t share his misperceptions. He means well but he is causing problems - not fixing them.
I'm not questioning your experience with this situation. I feel certain that you are probably right in your assessment. I agree with you that baseball "can be a cruel mistress". I just wonder if that mistress is a lot more crueler today than it use to be. The impression I am gathering from reading accounts, and talking to parents etc... is that coaches aren't showing a level of patients with players today than they have in years past. Maybe in years past John signs with a program, arrives on campus and has some control issues. Or his FB is topping at 88 instead of the 90/91 that they thought they were recruiting. Perhaps 5 years ago, that staff would have worked with John on his control. Or maybe, they would have had him in the weight room to help increase he velo? Whatever the issue, they would have invested time into helping a kid that they recruited, committed, and enrolled. Well, today it's too easy to cut your losses and get a transfer portal player or 24 year old grad transfer.
I just looked up a specific Power 5 school and in 2022 they had 13 players in the transfer portal and signed 6 players out of the transfer portal.
@Ster posted:I'm not questioning your experience with this situation. I feel certain that you are probably right in your assessment. I agree with you that baseball "can be a cruel mistress". I just wonder if that mistress is a lot more crueler today than it use to be. The impression I am gathering from reading accounts, and talking to parents etc... is that coaches aren't showing a level of patients with players today than they have in years past. Maybe in years past John signs with a program, arrives on campus and has some control issues. Or his FB is topping at 88 instead of the 90/91 that they thought they were recruiting. Perhaps 5 years ago, that staff would have worked with John on his control. Or maybe, they would have had him in the weight room to help increase he velo? Whatever the issue, they would have invested time into helping a kid that they recruited, committed, and enrolled. Well, today it's too easy to cut your losses and get a transfer portal player or 24 year old grad transfer.
I just looked up a specific Power 5 school and in 2022 they had 13 players in the transfer portal and signed 6 players out of the transfer portal.
The baseball journey has always been a difficult one. Most are filled with ups and downs and don’t end on our terms. My own experience fits that description and the same for both my sons that played. In that respect nothing has changed. I do agree that times are tougher now than ever before. But expectations are also more unrealistic than ever before. And the gap between the tough conditions and unrealistic expectations equals disappointment! I think by now most people understand why the conditions are tough for college baseball players. But the unrealistic expectations need to be talked about. People seem to expect a level of coaching and development that just doesn’t exist very many places. Only people that played college baseball, coach college baseball, or have a son that plays, played, coaches, or coached seem to understand this. And the advent of the transfer portal has made matters worse. There is no doubt about that. But when it comes to making decisions about your own son, people need to embrace the way things are right now instead of lamenting about how things should be.
Hi Ster.
@Ster posted:I'm not questioning your experience with this situation. I feel certain that you are probably right in your assessment. I agree with you that baseball "can be a cruel mistress". I just wonder if that mistress is a lot more crueler today than it use to be. The impression I am gathering from reading accounts, and talking to parents etc... is that coaches aren't showing a level of patients with players today than they have in years past. Maybe in years past John signs with a program, arrives on campus and has some control issues. Or his FB is topping at 88 instead of the 90/91 that they thought they were recruiting. Perhaps 5 years ago, that staff would have worked with John on his control. Or maybe, they would have had him in the weight room to help increase he velo? Whatever the issue, they would have invested time into helping a kid that they recruited, committed, and enrolled. Well, today it's too easy to cut your losses and get a transfer portal player or 24 year old grad transfer.
I just looked up a specific Power 5 school and in 2022 they had 13 players in the transfer portal and signed 6 players out of the transfer portal.
Ster .. you are 100% correct in your assessment.
most of all.. you are going into this (your son's college career) with your Eyes Wide Open..
I would guess 90% of incoming freshman and parents are not aware of much of what has been discussed on this thread which probably needs to be required reading by every single potential college player.
so credit is where credit is due.. you are going into this way ahead of the competition (whether the competition is his fallball,his teammates or the player vs himself)
a lot of what you wrote in the past 2 postings- our family and son has experienced all of it and over the past few years in multiple instances. .. hopefully except the father being a baffoon part(but maybe I am?)
I will have to say this strange journey has taken a lot of toll on my family. the small victories are few and far between and we have taken many lumps while often beseiged with adversities.. but the dream still lives...though sometimes it is on life support and needs resuscitation
Hasn't been easy... a lot of self reflection, a lot of $$$ and digging deep (for me) and even some for him too...
I would say just enjoy the time because it can be over soon as the time goes past: slowly ,slowly -then quickly...and it then it speeds up before maybe coming to a screeching halt or it takes another road..
good luck to your son. make sure he knows what he is getting into.
@fishnsail posted:I will have to say this strange journey has taken a lot of toll on my family. the small victories are few and far between and we have taken many lumps while often beseiged with adversities.. but the dream still lives...though sometimes it is on life support and needs resuscitation
Hasn't been easy... a lot of self reflection, a lot of $$$ and digging deep (for me) and even some for him too...
I would say just enjoy the time because it can be over soon as the time goes past: slowley ,slowely -then quickly...and it then it speeds up before maybe coming to a screeching halt or it takes another road..
good luck to your son. make sure he knows what he is getting into.
Very heart felt post. Thanks for sharing. Being a baseball player and parent of one, is just hard.
@adbono posted:The baseball journey has always been a difficult one. Most are filled with ups and downs and don’t end on our terms. My own experience fits that description and the same for both my sons that played. In that respect nothing has changed. I do agree that times are tougher now than ever before. But expectations are also more unrealistic than ever before. And the gap between the tough conditions and unrealistic expectations equals disappointment! I think by now most people understand why the conditions are tough for college baseball players. But the unrealistic expectations need to be talked about. People seem to expect a level of coaching and development that just doesn’t exist very many places. Only people that played college baseball, coach college baseball, or have a son that plays, played, coaches, or coached seem to understand this. And the advent of the transfer portal has made matters worse. There is no doubt about that. But when it comes to making decisions about your own son, people need to embrace the way things are right now instead of lamenting about how things should be.
All good points. Some thoughts of my own after following the ebbs and flows of this thread..
I am not sure the transfer portal is as much of an enemy as it seems to be. Colleges have always been able to recruit JUCO players and still do. Thus, when you are an incoming freshmen, you are not just competing with the remnants of last year's roster and other incoming freshmen, but recruited JUCO players, and now transfer portal guys. I think average players at P5/competitive schools "may" have more to fear from the portal. You may have been a starter last year but you could lose your job to an unknown, yet to be named portal guy. Of course, guys who did not play last year also will have to compete with portal guys.
The more I think about it, the villain here may be the decision they made to allow the extra year of eligibility for the COVID19 issue. That decision has hurt incoming freshmen for several years now. I don't think that was a good decision. Yes, the parents of Super Seniors are happy about this but, but... the ones who are/have been suffering are incoming freshmen buried behind guys who should be on to their life's work by now. If my understandings are correct, this extra year issue won't sort itself out until the 2025 incoming freshmen year.
Based on my experience, and long time membership here, the main way to develop is to be in the game. That is the way it was back then, and that is the way it is now in my lowly, humble opinion. I tell incoming freshmen all the time, you better be in the best shape of your life when you get to college. Train like you are going into the Marines and try to win any running/endurance drill they may have instore for you in the fall. That is one way to turn a coach's head that is not based on talent but desire. Secondly, what happens in fall scrimmages is where they make their decisions in the spring. You light it up hitting or pitching in the fall, you likely will receive a decent shot in the spring. In this thread, John got a spring shot and succeeded. None of us know why he did not get a follow up shot (e.g., injury, low velocity, attitude, etc.)
You've got to be ready for one shot, and one shot only in the spring. You get hit around in your first outing, your next shot may be awhile. You look clueless at the plate, your next shot may be next fall. One positive thing to keep in mind, is the original starters named in the spring do not all succeed as planned. Some struggle with the competition and injuries almost always happen. You have to be ready for one shot when such a situation occurs. When Lou Gehrig got his shot, Wally Pipp never got his job back. That is kind of the way baseball works. If you are not playing, you have to Wally Pipp someone out of the lineup and you may only get one shot to do that.
One thing an incoming freshmen may want to ask the coach directly, "Coach can you place me in a competitive summer league?" If he hem haws on that issue, that could be a red flag. Development happens when they play against live college players in the spring, summer, and/or fall.
@ClevelandDad posted:All good points. Some thoughts of my own after following the ebbs and flows of this thread..
I am not sure the transfer portal is as much of an enemy as it seems to be. Colleges have always been able to recruit JUCO players and still do. Thus, when you are an incoming freshmen, you are not just competing with the remnants of last year's roster and other incoming freshmen, but recruited JUCO players, and now transfer portal guys. I think average players at P5/competitive schools "may" have more to fear from the portal. You may have been a starter last year but you could lose your job to an unknown, yet to be named portal guy. Of course, guys who did not play last year also will have to compete with portal guys.
The more I think about it, the villain here may be the decision they made to allow the extra year of eligibility for the COVID19 issue. That decision has hurt incoming freshmen for several years now. I don't think that was a good decision. Yes, the parents of Super Seniors are happy about this but, but... the ones who are/have been suffering are incoming freshmen buried behind guys who should be on to their life's work by now. If my understandings are correct, this extra year issue won't sort itself out until the 2025 incoming freshmen year.
Based on my experience, and long time membership here, the main way to develop is to be in the game. That is the way it was back then, and that is the way it is now in my lowly, humble opinion. I tell incoming freshmen all the time, you better be in the best shape of your life when you get to college. Train like you are going into the Marines and try to win any running/endurance drill they may have instore for you in the fall. That is one way to turn a coach's head that is not based on talent but desire. Secondly, what happens in fall scrimmages is where they make their decisions in the spring. You light it up hitting or pitching in the fall, you likely will receive a decent shot in the spring. In this thread, John got a spring shot and succeeded. None of us know why he did not get a follow up shot (e.g., injury, low velocity, attitude, etc.)
You've got to be ready for one shot, and one shot only in the spring. You get hit around in your first outing, your next shot may be awhile. You look clueless at the plate, your next shot may be next fall. One positive thing to keep in mind, is the original starters named in the spring do not all succeed as planned. Some struggle with the competition and injuries almost always happen. You have to be ready for one shot when such a situation occurs. When Lou Gehrig got his shot, Wally Pipp never got his job back. That is kind of the way baseball works. If you are not playing, you have to Wally Pipp someone out of the lineup and you may only get one shot to do that.
One thing an incoming freshmen may want to ask the coach directly, "Coach can you place me in a competitive summer league?" If he hem haws on that issue, that could be a red flag. Development happens when they play against live college players in the spring, summer, and/or fall.
Super accurate across the board. Most kids don’t realize you have to be ready to compete in the Fall. Iron your stuff out before you get to school because one you hit campus it’s game on.
Separately, what was the last year that Covid could be considered a lost year for eligibility? 20-21 or 21-22?
CD;
Outstanding analysis.
"One thing an incoming freshmen may want to ask the coach directly, "Coach can you place me in a competitive summer league?" If he hem haws on that issue, that could be a red flag. Development happens when they play against live college players in the spring, summer, and/or fall."
Very true! Parents should consider this when player is 15 years old. it will prepare the young man for College baseball. Forget making the "All Stars" 16 and under team. "Learn & study the game, obtain quickness from players 2-3 years older.
Bob
I heard this once and it makes lots of sense.
A player during exit interview states that the coach took away his playing time that season. The coach tells him that it's not me that took away your playing time, it's the guy who worked harder than you in the fall to earn that playing time.
I think this generally sums up how things go in most programs. Its hard as a freshman to understand the expectations. It's hard for their parents also.
I think it's pretty wise to assume nothing is a given. If you don't work hard, you won't play as often as you feel you should.
I don't see the portal as an evil addition. When you have incoming freshman decide they are going to take the ML offer instead of coming on campus. Coach has to be prepared. The same when a player decides to take an offer when he said he was staying.
Everyone wants to play in the best school in the best conference. Please, please understand that it's not for everyone.
This is a story about a really talented player with pro potential in HS. He got a lot of offers from the big programs in Florida. But he wanted to go to a mid D1 program and play with his travel ball teammates. He had gone to this teams camp on several occassions over several years. So a strong relationship was developed.
So this player excelled in the game. I think everyone got nervous when the transfer rule without sitting was implemented. No way was he going to go to any P5.
He has a great story. This summer if you listen, this player from FAU will have his name called very early!
Go play where you will make a difference!
@TPM said, “Go play where you will make a difference.”
That is 100% spot on. All coaches want to recruit difference makers. Because those are the guys that will never come off the field. It’s as simple as that. As it relates to this thread, I will pose this question : Did John make a difference this year at his ranked D1 program? Absolutely not. They couldn’t care less about him. Would he have made a difference at Temple JC (where he initially committed) ? Absolutely he would have. He would have been one of their conference starters. John and his parents got caught up in John’s one year of great success in HS, over reached, and ended up drowning in a pool that he wasn’t ready for. And it’s easy to see how that can happen. But it can be very difficult to recover from.
Some brilliant thoughts here the last 24 hours of posts and thank you to all who have commented. We (my favorite player, my spouse, and me) have seen all parts of these things this season except a John (that we are aware of). Great thread. I have a lot to offer but will see how the next month shakes out.
Something that I do not think has been mentioned much is how injury at a key time of the year can set things on a different course. Another thing is how expectations of a team (players, coaches, and parents) can put a bunch of pressure that manifests itself in all sorts of unhealthy ways.
I spoke with a couple of dads the last couple of weeks of conference foes and have heard all sorts of things like:
"I don't think that there is development at any D1 school...development is on your own and coaches play whomever they think will help them win now."
"Our team is good but filled with all individuals all out for themselves. They have 1 freshman on the roster who has not seen the field and the rest of the team is JUCO kids and from the portal. The HC does not trust the PC and tells the PC who is starting the day of and occasionally the night before. Pitchers have no idea what is happening and are stressed out."
Back to hi-jack this thread again. Just keeping this to the people following this thread.
So another tidbit on the kid's team. Woot..