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Alternative to deadlift

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Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
There are a large variety of deadlifts. You may look into those alternatives which are going to warrant lighter weight. It's possible that he may have gotten too heavy and so these alternatives may work.

Single Leg Deadlift
Trap Bar Deadlift
Straight leg Deadlift

Also, may look at kettlebell swings.

The deadlift is a hip-hinge exercise. I really like kettlebell swings as an effective workout!
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
It is a faulty exercise for many reasons.


So please do share... and let's see if you can do it without mentioning your favorite 3 words to exercise...


quote:
If you could find a Nautilus or MedX Lower back machine that would be great


And what exactly is functional about a machine? You wanna talk about worthless?...
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Eaglecoach:

Our strength coach says his form is fine so it's not bad technique.


It also could have been a result of a back strain from an exercise he previously completed.

As mentioned above, there are several variations to the deadlift that are effective. However, when completed properly, deadlifting is one of the best exercises for baseball players due to the explosiveness and functionality. There is certainly a risk-reward factor in the lift being that it is rather technologically advanced, but success is usually great as a result of proper form.

Some thoughts and possible alternatives:

http://www.ericcressey.com/how...n-is-right-for-you-1

http://www.ericcressey.com/how...n-is-right-for-you-2

http://www.ericcressey.com/how...-3-trap-bar-deadlift
Last edited by J H
JPontiacJPontiac500+ posts
This has been covered well by my very intelligent co-posters Bulldog and J H but I just want to add to the chorus of pro-deadlift. It is a great movement and perhaps the best one for pitchers (it's between that and squat, good thing you get to do both!).

If there is a back condition, deadlifting may not be a reality. I would suggest working on it at low weights and researching form (because trainer/coach may not be giving sound advice) to see if doing it aggressively in the future is possible. Keep in mind that the deadlift is primarily a lift for the low back so it should get normal muscle soreness.

The main alternative for deadlift is the trap bar deadlift. It is a fine lift, but keep in mind that it isn't a true replacement. It is, in effect, much closer to the squat in the way it works the legs vs the back. I still encourage working on the low back strength and health to eventually be able to deadlift.
TR Tom RileyMember
It is hard to say one thing he can do instead without knowing his whole program. Dead lifts are just one lift in a program. There are no magical lifts. Just good progressive programs that pay off with effort. Every athlete has different needs and their programs should be adjusted accordingly. Hopefully, his strength coach can make adjustments to his program if he is experiencing pain and his form is good. Pain is your body telling you something is wrong. It is either an injury or bad form. It is also possible his mobility is not good enough to do the lift properly. The other exercises that were given are all good alternatives, especially the single leg versions as these are usually more back friendly since the weight must be lowered. But even these can cause problems if done with poor form or an injury.

@Andrew-- A trap bar dead lift is just a dead lift done with a trap bar. It provides relief for those that do not have the mobility necessary to do the dead lift with good form. A trap bar has handles so that the athlete does not have to get as low to get the bar. Another way of doing dead lifts for those without the mobility is to elevate the bar on blocks. One could also do rack pulls by placing the pins in a squat rack on the lowest rung and putting the bar on that.

Nothing that causes pain should be done. Hopefully his strength coach can help with this problem and if not maybe a qualified professional in your area can help. Back pain is not something to take lightly.
T TheUnDiscovered10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
It is a faulty exercise for many reasons.


So please do share... and let's see if you can do it without mentioning your favorite 3 words to exercise...

Compresses the spine, doesn't work in accord to muscle and joint function(Which means it isn't really exercise, it is a self destructive movement), causes chronic pain/massive inflammation which is truly the underlier in many of these "mysterious" injuries.

quote:
If you could find a Nautilus or MedX Lower back machine that would be great


And what exactly is functional about a machine? You wanna talk about worthless?...


You know not what function is my friend. The machine builds muscle(supplies the stimulus, and an adaptation(growth) is gained through proper rest), so the gaining of muscle will make the athlete more functional in their sport, theoretically.

-Worthless to a fool who doesn't understand it, priceless to those who love the truth. Smile
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
-Worthless to a fool who doesn't understand it, priceless to those who love the truth.


So you want to tell me which of these professionals has a "low back machine" in their sports performance center or physical therapy clinic?


Mike Boyle
Mike Reinold
Charlie Weingroff
Gray Cook
Eric Cressey
Dan John
Stuart McGill

Should I go on?

Do you have a leg extension machine too?
Last edited by Bulldog 19
T TheUnDiscovered10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
TheUnDiscovered- What opinions have you heard from your college coaches about the weight training programs you stand by?


Well I'm now on my own program because theirs almost killed me. The outrageous long distance running and overtraining caused my hemoglobin to drop to 8 over the past few months and I had to get a blood transfusion.

-All college coaches are the first to tell you who they have gotten to the next level. Yet are reluctant to mention all the kids they have injured and baseball careers they have cut short through illogical exercise programs.
Last edited by TheUnDiscovered
JPontiacJPontiac500+ posts
I will say that baseball coaches at all levels tend to be just about worthless when it comes to exercise programs.

The things that take years to filter through fitness circles tend to take decades to reach baseball coaches.

This isn't necessarily an indictment on any particular coach, anyone that does their due diligence should arrive at a good place. So many don't, though.
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by The UnDiscovered:

Well I'm now on my own program because theirs almost killed me. The outrageous long distance running and overtraining caused my hemoglobin to drop to 8 over the past few months and I had to get a blood transfusion.

-All college coaches are the first to tell you who they have gotten to the next level. Yet are reluctant to mention all the kids they have injured and baseball careers they have cut short through illogical exercise programs.



Hopefully you take this next piece as advice and not condescending. I would highly advise to watch what you say about those in power in this sport. Baseball is a small world and this website has a lot of tributaries. Strong negativity can provide very little benefit in future endeavors.
T TheUnDiscovered10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by J H:
quote:
Originally posted by The UnDiscovered:

Well I'm now on my own program because theirs almost killed me. The outrageous long distance running and overtraining caused my hemoglobin to drop to 8 over the past few months and I had to get a blood transfusion.

-All college coaches are the first to tell you who they have gotten to the next level. Yet are reluctant to mention all the kids they have injured and baseball careers they have cut short through illogical exercise programs.



Hopefully you take this next piece as advice and not condescending. I would highly advise to watch what you say about those in power in this sport. Baseball is a small world and this website has a lot of tributaries. Strong negativity can provide very little benefit in future endeavors.


Good point! Most baseball people I meet are great people, just seems when it comes to exercise most don't know any better...
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
"Body By Science: A Research-Based Program for Strength Training, Body Building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week"

That sure is some interesting BS they're selling you...

At some point you going to answer my question about your "machines" solution? Little hint: it's no longer the 1970's and the Nautilus machines have fallen out of style...
T TheUnDiscovered10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
"Body By Science: A Research-Based Program for Strength Training, Body Building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week"

That sure is some interesting BS they're selling you...

At some point you going to answer my question about your "machines" solution? Little hint: it's no longer the 1970's and the Nautilus machines have fallen out of style...


Call it what you want. You will reap what you sow. They offer so much more than free weights. Free weights are restricted to one plane of motion due to gravity. The machine can offer resistance(stimulus) in accord to muscle and joint function throughout the proper range of motion. The real secret to exercise is rest. Rest is the part of training where growth occurs. Patience is a virtue. Most are simply doing too much. They have good intentions but with a better understanding of exercise they can save themselves a lot of time.
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
They offer so much more than free weights. Free weights are restricted to one plane of motion due to gravity. The machine can offer resistance(stimulus) in accord to muscle and joint function throughout the proper range of motion


Interesting. I didn't know that swinging a bat was a single-joint movement. I didn't realize that throwing a ball was a single-joint movement.

That's exactly what using a machine is-- single-joint movements...

Machines are junk and have next to no place in an athletic workout.

If you were to put one guy onto a leg press machine and another guy doing back squats with free weight and had them work out for 6 months; the one doing back squats would be MUCH stronger than the one that is doing a leg press machine. There is so much more work being done with free weights...
T TheUnDiscovered10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
They offer so much more than free weights. Free weights are restricted to one plane of motion due to gravity. The machine can offer resistance(stimulus) in accord to muscle and joint function throughout the proper range of motion


Interesting. I didn't know that swinging a bat was a single-joint movement. I didn't realize that throwing a ball was a single-joint movement.

That's exactly what using a machine is-- single-joint movements...

Machines are junk and have next to no place in an athletic workout.

If you were to put one guy onto a leg press machine and another guy doing back squats with free weight and had them work out for 6 months; the one doing back squats would be MUCH stronger than the one that is doing a leg press machine. There is so much more work being done with free weights...


Your right they are not the same. The thing is, physical conditioning is different than skill training. They are separate, yet you are trying to combine them and act like they are the same.

Oh well.

Take care...
Last edited by TheUnDiscovered
J HJ H5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by The Undiscovered:

Your right they are not the same. The thing is, physical conditioning is different than skill training. They are separate, yet you are trying to combine them and act like they are the same.

Oh well.


This is where I have to chime in. You are woefully mistaken with this comment. Have you never heard of sport-specific training? Physical conditioning for a particular sport is very much geared toward the skills required to optimally perform that sport. It's the reason why you don't see pitchers lifting like offensive linemen. Machines have no functionality whatsoever as baseball-specific exercises because they are not in the least bit similar to baseball-specific movements.
TR Tom RileyMember
Undiscovered,

You have said some very smart things such as rest is key to making gains. This is something that many people don't understand. It is something very important for strength coaches to learn because the competitive nature of many athletes is do more and I'll get better.

You also are right on that physical training and skill acquisition are different and should be separated. I want my athletes learning skills in a rested state or a state that is similar to a game.

However, you are way off on your love for machines and hatred of free weights. One thing that is important is not to be attached to any modality of training. A strength coach should have lots of tools in his tool box. That is becoming a problem with some people saying kettle bells for everything or deadlift or machines. Don't be a machine guy. Be a coach. Know to teach everything. A favorite quote of mine from strength coach Mike Boyle is "when you are a hammer everything looks like a nail." Don't fall into the trap of us against them.

You can learn most from those you disagree with. I completely disagree with your hatred of the dead lift as a healthy athlete with proper form and load should be able to deadliest without problems. If no one can deadliest, parents better stop picking their kids up off the floor. Having said that, you bring up great points such as the importance of rest.

There is no one manual that is the "Bible" of training. Always keep learning. Machines have a place for certain populations just as free weights do. No one knows it all.

Google Stu McGill for lower backs. He is one the world's top experts on back pain.

Other good follows
Mike Boyle
Eric Cressey
Tony Gentilcore
Mike Robertson
Mark Verstegen-Athletes Performance
Vern Gambetta
Gray Cook
C CoachGregRobins10+ posts
quote:
There is a reason why it's called a "Deadlift." It is a faulty exercise for many reasons. But they won't tell you that(the truth). If you could find a Nautilus or MedX Lower back machine that would be great, otherwise I would stay away from it period.


The deadlift, or one of it's many variations is probably one of the BEST exercises for athletes. The "hinge" pattern of the hips has incredible transfer into lower body movements such as sprinting, jumping, and hitting / throwing a baseball. Additionally it is a great choice for overhead throwing athletes as it does not require awkward loading of a bar on the back or shoulders which can be rough on the shoulders, elbows and wrists. All of which are pretty **** important in baseball. I agree with the posts on using a trap bar. The trap bar DL is generally a go to movement for athletes, especially younger ones.

Another common regression from the conventional DL would be it's SUMO variety.

If there is a pre-existing low back injury it may be a bad choice. However, some kind of hip hinge movement should be a fundamental part of his program.

GR
JMW37JMW37100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachGregRobins:
The deadlift, or one of it's many variations is probably one of the BEST exercises for athletes. The "hinge" pattern of the hips has incredible transfer into lower body movements such as sprinting, jumping, and hitting / throwing a baseball. Additionally it is a great choice for overhead throwing athletes as it does not require awkward loading of a bar on the back or shoulders which can be rough on the shoulders, elbows and wrists. All of which are pretty **** important in baseball. I agree with the posts on using a trap bar. The trap bar DL is generally a go to movement for athletes, especially younger ones.

Another common regression from the conventional DL would be it's SUMO variety.

If there is a pre-existing low back injury it may be a bad choice. However, some kind of hip hinge movement should be a fundamental part of his program.

GR


Are you saying dead lift should be done in place of squats, or should be used in conjunction with them?
C CoachGregRobins10+ posts
quote:
Are you saying dead lift should be done in place of squats, or should be used in conjunction with them?


The truth is "it depends". Everything is based off an assessment.

I find that the deadlift is actually more approachable as a primary lower body lift. The deadlift is easily regressed, while also remaining effective. I.E. Mobility issues could effect an athlete getting into the right position from the floor, but the deadlift can be elevated and still build power in that hip hinge pattern.

To squat full ROM takes an acceptable amount of mobility and in turn adequate stability through that range. I often find athletes that are not able to squat right away. Therefore we have to use more single leg work, or squat variations that do not allow the same amount of loading if any.

I love the squat, but it's not for everyone. I don't think the back squat with a barbell is ever a squat overhead athletes should be doing.

I think the deadlift should be trained and progressed safely. I would more concerned that an athletes numbers go up in the deadlift, and that they are able to squat.

Hope that helps.

GR
JPontiacJPontiac500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachGregRobins:
quote:
Are you saying dead lift should be done in place of squats, or should be used in conjunction with them?


The truth is "it depends". Everything is based off an assessment.

I find that the deadlift is actually more approachable as a primary lower body lift. The deadlift is easily regressed, while also remaining effective. I.E. Mobility issues could effect an athlete getting into the right position from the floor, but the deadlift can be elevated and still build power in that hip hinge pattern.

To squat full ROM takes an acceptable amount of mobility and in turn adequate stability through that range. I often find athletes that are not able to squat right away. Therefore we have to use more single leg work, or squat variations that do not allow the same amount of loading if any.

I love the squat, but it's not for everyone. I don't think the back squat with a barbell is ever a squat overhead athletes should be doing.

I think the deadlift should be trained and progressed safely. I would more concerned that an athletes numbers go up in the deadlift, and that they are able to squat.

Hope that helps.

GR


I appreciate your level-headed approach to those you have disagreed with in this thread.

Can you tell me in more detail why you are opposed to conventional squats for throwing athletes? I'll tell you now that I don't agree, but I honestly am not sure what your reasoning is and I want to listen.
J HJ H5,000+ posts
JPontiac- I'll let Coach Robins respond with the proper kinesiological terminology, since I am not too familiar with it myself. However, I have worked with an S&C coach in the past ( http://www.fitandfunctional.co...ls/matt_otteman_cpt/ ) who explained to me that the external rotation of the shoulder causes a lot of tension on the superior labrum. He said that as a baseball player (and specifically a pitcher, and more specifically a pitcher coming off of injury like myself), the majority of throwing shoulders have some sort of structural damage already in place, which could cause an even weaker base for this movement.

I've never been hurt while back squatting or experienced any sort of shoulder discomfort from it, so I can't say all this from experience. I'm just relaying on some information from what I've been told.
Last edited by J H
T TheUnDiscovered10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Riley:
Undiscovered,

You have said some very smart things such as rest is key to making gains. This is something that many people don't understand. It is something very important for strength coaches to learn because the competitive nature of many athletes is do more and I'll get better.

You also are right on that physical training and skill acquisition are different and should be separated. I want my athletes learning skills in a rested state or a state that is similar to a game.

However, you are way off on your love for machines and hatred of free weights. One thing that is important is not to be attached to any modality of training. A strength coach should have lots of tools in his tool box. That is becoming a problem with some people saying kettle bells for everything or deadlift or machines. Don't be a machine guy. Be a coach. Know to teach everything. A favorite quote of mine from strength coach Mike Boyle is "when you are a hammer everything looks like a nail." Don't fall into the trap of us against them.

You can learn most from those you disagree with. I completely disagree with your hatred of the dead lift as a healthy athlete with proper form and load should be able to deadliest without problems. If no one can deadliest, parents better stop picking their kids up off the floor. Having said that, you bring up great points such as the importance of rest.

There is no one manual that is the "Bible" of training. Always keep learning. Machines have a place for certain populations just as free weights do. No one knows it all.

Google Stu McGill for lower backs. He is one the world's top experts on back pain.

Other good follows
Mike Boyle
Eric Cressey
Tony Gentilcore
Mike Robertson
Mark Verstegen-Athletes Performance
Vern Gambetta
Gray Cook


Thank you for the kind words!

Hate is a very strong word. I don't hate deadlifts or free weights. I just believe there is a safer and more efficient way to get the results everyone wants from exercise.

The fitness industry is a huge business with many trying to make some big bucks. Be wary of who you trust with your health, time, and money...
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
Can you tell me in more detail why you are opposed to conventional squats for throwing athletes? I'll tell you now that I don't agree, but I honestly am not sure what your reasoning is and I want to listen.


I have eliminated the back squat from my choice of exercises. I can get a greater stimulus using things like rear-foot-elevated split squats, TRX lunges, walking lunges, Goblet Squats, and the occasional front squat.

You'll hear baseball people talk about it being because of the shoulders, but that's not why I've eliminated it. Think about the amount of stress you are putting on your spine when you put a heavy bar onto your back....
JPontiacJPontiac500+ posts
Interesting responses so far.

I wondered if it was a shoulder concern, but I've been doing the back squat (with a pre-existing labrum tear) for quite a while and have never had an iota of discomfort in the exercise.

The back is always a concern, but flexibility and the proper form that flexibility allows for safe squatting IMO. You just can't be stupid, I see a lot of teammates doing some very dangerous looking squats and it makes me wonder. I unfortunately can't do any lunging because of a toe injury.
Kyle BKyle B10+ posts
You guys are barking up the same tree that everyone else has on the Internet for years. Undiscovered believes in Super-Slow Training, which has largely been debunked for athletic training / performance training for years. Nothing will convince him otherwise, so it's not really worth discussing.

His constant "People are trying to sell you stuff" diatribe is particularly hilarious because he recommends working out on machines that costs tens of thousands of dollars, while you can pick up 500 pounds of free weights, a squat rack, and a barbell for a few hundred dollars on Craigslist.
Last edited by Kyle B
T TheUnDiscovered10+ posts
Yes I do believe in SuperSlow training... Builds muscle and is easy on the joints and ligaments(Machines work with your body, not against it.) Doesn't cause inflammation or injury like the training the masses prefer. Machines are expensive but claiming they are "tens of thousands of dollars" is a lie. My guy has paid around 500 to 1,000 a machine. He finds good deals. To do this type of training you don't have to buy the machines, that would be silly. Try to find a trainer or gym in your area.
Last edited by TheUnDiscovered
Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
quote:
(Machines work with your body, not against it.)


Machines work in the exact Range of Motion that it wants. It forces your body to adjust rather than going with its natural movements.

And yes typically a gym full of machines is going to cost "tens of thousands" of dollars unless you buy junk that is higly used. If you go out and buy brand new equipment you're looking at probably closer to $50k or more.

And machines run into one of the same problems that using a barbell does in the hands of the wrong person. It builds muscle on top of dysfunction. You may be strong, but you might be super weak when it comes to stability.
JPontiacJPontiac500+ posts
Here's a very light read from the NSCA on free weights vs machines, fully equipped with peer-reviewed citations.

http://www.nsca.com/HotTopic/d...20Free%20Weights.pdf

Here's another pertinent, more recent single study:

quote:
Strength outcomes in fixed versus free-form resistance equipment.

Spennewyn KC, J Strength Cond Res. 2008 Jan;22(1):75-81.


Purpose: The purpose of this study was to compare measures of strength and balance between subjects using fixed form or free-form resistance training equipment to determine whether there is a difference in strength or balance outcomes.

Methods: Thirty previously untrained subjects, mean age = 49 (+/-3.7 years), were randomly placed in either a free-form strength group (FF n = 10) utilizing a commercially available free-form plate loaded resistance device, a fixed form strength group (FX n = 10) utilizing a commercially available fixed range selectorized resistance device or a control group (C; n = 10) who did not exercise. All groups were assessed during a pretest (T1) and a posttest (T2). The exercise groups were asked to exercise over a 16-week period, increasing resistance based on a standardized 8-12 repetition protocol. The same muscles were targeted in both exercise groups, all groups were instructed not to change their dietary habits.

Results: A one-way ANOVA was used to detect differences among the groups using baseline and end results data. FX group increased strength 57% from baseline while the FF group increased strength 115% from baseline. A statistically significant difference (P = 0.000001) was detected for strength production in the FF over the FX group and (P = 0.0000144) over the training and control groups. Balance improved 49% in the FX versus 245% in the FF groups. Testing revealed a statistically significant difference (P < or = 0.003). The control (C) group did not show significant improvement in either strength or balance.

Conclusions: Results of this study indicate a greater improvement in FF over FX in strength (58%), and balance (196%). Additionally, the FX reported increased pain levels while the FF group reported lowered overall pain levels.


You can see some more discussion of that study at the following page: http://optimumsportsperformance.com/blog/?p=116

There's a ton of info out there that strength enhancement is almost always superior in free weight movements, and even moreso in ways translatable to the playing field (look at the balance increase in that study!)
Last edited by JPontiac
C CoachGregRobins10+ posts
In response to the barbell back squat:

What we are discussing is "risk to reward"

I have no problem admitting that plenty of baseball players have probably had much success with it.

However, as stated above almost every throwing athlete, even the average person, is walking around with a rotator cuff issue. They are often asymptomatic. I don't have the exact percentage in front of me but it's quite high. In order to perform the barbell back squat the shoulder is going to be put in hard external rotation and that just isn't a place I would want to put a shoulder that a kid is depending on to get a scholarship.

We must always remember that lifting is not their sport. Baseball is their sport. Any strength gains in the gym are going to translate into better performance on the field, and isn't that the end goal?

The worst case scenario we get a kid hurt performing back squats and he could of been doing a squat with a safety bar, cambered bar, or front squat variation. I DO think they should squat if they can do it. I DO think they should load it on the back if they have a specialty bar. Even though it places a demand on the back if its performed right, this is a healthy demand that leads to stronger back sides.

The reward to the barbell back squat just doesn't outweigh the risk for these athletes. As a strength coach you should be operating under the idea of "doing no harm" first and foremost.

As far as the machine guy...how much force do you think actually throwing a baseball, sprinting, jumping, and hitting places on the body. It's A LOT. I wouldn't be worried about placing too much of it in the gym. If super slow machine training was beneficial people would use it at the highest level, and they aren't.
Kyle BKyle B10+ posts
We back squat pitchers and position players in my gym because I think we teach it well and the benefits are largely worth it. However, as they start to squat more weight, we shift them to a front squat-based program with more trap-bar deadlifting. This way you get the quad-dominant exercise in the front squat but maintain posterior chain strength by pulling from the floor.

I think it's a good compromise. There is little "harm" in a kid back squatting 150 pounds. That's barely anything. Is there a point to a kid back squatting 500 pounds? Maybe not. But with decent form (not even perfect), there is no way kids are gonna hurt themselves squatting 2 plates - as long as the coach isn't an idiot and supervises them appropriately. (Which is my job, of course.)
Kyle BKyle B10+ posts
As for the forced external rotation the back squat puts people in, I think a passive stretch in ER is a GOOD thing for novice lifters and kids who are throwing 70-75 MPH.

Obviously if you have kids in the mid-upper 80's or 90's, you don't back squat them very much. But for novices, passive static stretching of the shoulder into ER can have a lot of benefits.
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