Arm Soreness Question

For that age not enough rest between outings

Keep in mind he is still growing and growth plates are still closing

He should not play SS the day after he throws especially if you have him pitching twice a week as you say

Thanks TR. He won't be pitching 2x/week as the norm. And I plan on having him stretch a llitle more before and after his outings.

Have your son run after pitching.
Lactic acid build up in the muscle also can cause arm soreness,
running will break up the acid.
Also that to much pitching for an 11 year old.
Winning is fine but not everything at this age.
Its about the long haul and the years to come.
Being a coach is about teaching the game, and having fun at this age.
JMO
EH

According to Dr. Glenn Fleisig at the ASMI Sports Medicine Forum your sons weekly pitch count should max at 100.

Great information guys...thanks. First and formost, the number one priority, over everything else is my son's health. I was a QB for 10 years and suffered a ton of different arm issues. I do not want my son to experience anything like that. Winning is not my priority. And although I am not the manager of the team I will be talking to him tonight about our pitchers and rest. This LL baseball. And yes we do play to win, but having fun and staying healthy are priorities over winning. I had a feeling that my son threw too much and the result was a little soreness in his arm. He will not be throwing tonight at practice...and neither will another child whose dad has him pitch on their own way too much.
I want to thank you guys again for responding. It's been very helpful.

-Pat

Pat,

It's great that you are keeping this in check early. Our son same thing close to this age, though I think he may have been 13, but was always smaller. Anyway, solid mechanics, great shape, same as yours, started having a "little" soreness, not bad, we all thought "tendonitis". He was brought in to pitch off the bench (not properly warmed up, IMHO), pitched last 2/3 of an inning, our team hit, then went back out and on warm-ups (2nd pitch) "broke" his arm (growth plate pulled away and down his arm). Ortho said at his age, muscle was stronger than the bone(plate) and it can happen even if they are doing everything right... just happens. He had surgery to repair, and is doing wonderfully.
Just said all that to say this Always take any soreness very serious. If we had been a little more "worried", we may have caught it, but not for sure. Doc said even if we'd brought him in, they just would have prescribed rest, wouldn't have been able to see on an X-Ray.

Hi Pat,
A couple have indicated that more rest is needed inbetween pitching events. I certainly agree with that. But how much is enough? What is right for one may not be right for another, everyone is different.

My son is also a pitcher and something we used is to allow an hour rest for every game time pitch. 50 game pitches would require 50 hours or a little over two days rest. Also, as TR pointed out, you should strongly consider trying to limit the throwing the day after a high pitch count from the mound.

Tell you son to never hide any soreness. It sounds like he does talk to you, but as they get older you may find or see that some coaches can push a kid into a situation where he might try to pitch with some soreness. You son needs to understand that if he wants or expects to keep pitching this should never happen. He needs to understand that it is OK to tell a coach his arm is sore.

As I stated in the pitching forum on this same subject. There is a difference in being sore and being hurt. If all he has is muscle soreness, I would not consider it a big deal. He just needs to get his rest between starts. If he pitched on Saturday, he should not pitch in a game again till at least Thursday. 2nd day after outing, do long toss. That should stretch out and work the sorness out of the muscles.

Now if he was having pain in his joints (elbow or shoulder), that would be a different story. Good luck to you and your son.

Sounds like you already had your answer before you asked the question.

I know my son NEVER had soreness until he was 13/14 and pumping it up to about 81/83 mph. If the soreness is persistant after outings, recurring soreness at 11 would concern me, even in the muscle.

I had a frind who's son had recurring soreness in the muscle. Then when he got older/stronger he was pulling back on a coumpound bow and dislocated the arm from the socket. The kid was OK throwing, but always developed soreness when pitching.

I just want to highlight that my son has not complained about the soreness, as he stated it has not been "hurting" him. This has been most helpful for me. I think I will start practicing the rest period tonight. Since I am a coach I am going to tell the manager that if our pitchers throw, the required "rest" doesn't mean they throw form 3rd or the OF the next day. I am going to tell him that we should use a formula. For example, 6o pitches = 2 days of no throwing.

What has long been neglected cannot be restored immediatly. Fruit falls from the tree when it is ripe.

Pat, here are but just a few articles on pitch counts for players your son's age.

http://www.littleleague.org/As...Publication_2008.pdf

http://www.insidepitching.com/...iew&id=725&Itemid=46

A pitch-count log for you to download and print for game time:

http://www.littleleague.org/As...dia/Pitching_Log.pdf

I do not recall as a kid ever having a sore arm---but then we were throwing every day--all day long

quote:

I do not recall as a kid ever having a sore arm---but then we were throwing every day--all day long

over the years i haven't seen many older pitchers who don't have arm soreness/ heaviness , after they pitch. not pain just ..........the feeling that youve worked it.

but i don't travel in the best of circles.

Young,
Thanks. We keep pitch counts and logs. Last week was the most my son had ever pitched. We're going to give it 2 days rest and see how it feels Wed.

I'd be interested in the average amount of rest time coaches require of their pitchers after an outing. We follow th LL rules in place. And when they rest do they not touch a ball or is it light tossing from another position.

Thanks,
-Pat

Pat

Is this league Wiliamsport LL affiliated?

Yes.

Have they changed the rules for pitchers?

In the old days it was 6 innings a week and three days rest if you went one pitch over 3 innings

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Have they changed the rules for pitchers?

In the old days it was 6 innings a week and three days rest if you went one pitch over 3 innings

The rules were changed three years ago to pitch counts and associated days of rest in relation to the count. Since my son was out of LL I can't remember the specifics. I do remember playing with the numbers when I saw them and figuring out how to use the stud excessively if the schedule broke properly. From talking with parents with kids still in LL, for the most part pitch counts are working.

Pitch counts were implemented after ESPN raked the Iowa coach for letting his pitcher go 137 pitches in the LLWS. My son's LL all-star coach let a pitcher go the distance in a sixteen strikeout, seven walks, four hit batters no hitter. He went deep in the count to almost every hitter throwing 160+ pitches. My son caught. He was black and blue after the game.

Personally I think the rule is a CYA for when a parent decides to sue when their kid blows his arm out pitching for LL and travel concurrently.

My son threw 39 pitches on a Tuesday (1 day rest required) then threw 65 Friday (3 days and 1 game rest required). With our schedule he won't be eligible to pitch agin until next week (due to the 1 game rule). My question is even though there is required rest, does "rest" mean no throwing? Last week my son had a game Tuesday, practice Wed and game Friday. He felt no soreness or discomfort during the game or after but felt soreness when he did some light throwing on Saturday then again yesterday. Which is completely my fault. He doesn't feel any soreness now. So he's going to refrain from throwing for until his Wed's practice.

RJM

Thanx for the update on the rules--I have been away from LL for some 10 years plus now.

quote:

65 Friday (3 days and 1 game rest required).

If I remember correctly, 75 is the magic top out number. A kid could throw 75 pitches Monday and come back and do it again Friday or Saturday of there's a game sometime in between Tuesday to Thursday. A stud pitcher who's mowing them over could get twelve innings that week.

quote:

Originally posted by Pat H:
My question is even though there is required rest, does "rest" mean no throwing?

No, rest means no competitive pitching. In most pitching routines there is some throwing on some off days. Usually the day after is a day of rest, then the next day is long toss, stretched out to a distance of comfort.

Having a son in college now, that is post labrum surgery, if it were my son, I would have give him 3 days rest after anything close to 40 pitches, and 4 days rest over 50.

Injuries occur when players get fatigued. They don't know they're tired, they feel fine. They are also the result of not enough time for micro tears to heal before starting up again.

Every dad of every youngster thinks his kid is the one with the "live" "rubber' arm. "Hey, junior here can throw all day, every day and feel great." The reality is, that all that wear adds up, and you'll figure that out when you're looking down on him in the hospital bed, wondering if he'll ever pitch like he used to.

Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt.

quote:

Every dad of every youngster thinks his kid is the one with the "live" "rubber' arm. "Hey, junior here can throw all day, every day and feel great." The reality is, that all that wear adds up, and you'll figure that out when you're looking down on him in the hospital bed, wondering if he'll ever pitch like he used to.

Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt.

ditto, but my t-shirt don't fit anymore.

quote:

No, rest means no competitive pitching. In most pitching routines there is some throwing on some off days. Usually the day after is a day of rest, then the next day is long toss, stretched out to a distance of comfort.

Having a son in college now, that is post labrum surgery, if it were my son, I would have give him 3 days rest after anything close to 40 pitches, and 4 days rest over 50.

Injuries occur when players get fatigued. They don't know they're tired, they feel fine. They are also the result of not enough time for micro tears to heal before starting up again.

CP,
This is the info I was looking for. Thanks.

quote:

Every dad of every youngster thinks his kid is the one with the "live" "rubber' arm. "Hey, junior here can throw all day, every day and feel great." The reality is, that all that wear adds up, and you'll figure that out when you're looking down on him in the hospital bed, wondering if he'll ever pitch like he used to.

Please do not put me in this boat. I suffered through numerous arm injuries due to overuse from my years QB-ing and throwing the javelin. I do not want my son to go through that. As a young pitcher I know my son will possibly be prone to arm soreness. As a dad, this is my first experience with it. From everything I am reading it's probably overuse. And yes that is my fault..%100. But I did not purposely overuse my kid because he has a "live" or "rubber" arm. Nor do I think he's the next Nolan Ryan/Greg Maddux (or whatever pro you want to throw in here). It is not my call to pitch him. It's the manager's of his team. I looked at how the manager wanted to use him last week, under 40 on Tues and let him go 65 on Friday. I thought since it was in the limits of LL, that it would be ok. But between the extra inning game (he pitched then went to SS), practice at SS and OF 1 day later, I believe he threw too much. Again my fault and I learned a tough lesson. I stretched my son yesterday and he did not feel any soreness. If he still has soreness after tomorrow's practice we'll pay a visit to the ortho (I don't want to take any chances). My child plays baseball, loves doing it, and yes he's a decent player. But continuing to play baseball is not worth the price of an arm injury.

I certainly overstated the situation by using the term, "every dad of every youngster". However, not by much, IMHO.

Good luck with your son and he'll benefit from your pro activeness to his arm health.

Dont know if anyone said this already but get him on the jobe tubing stretches, they would wonders for our pitching staff