Article and Book on Chinese Parents

They had a review of the book on NPR's Fresh Air today.

I do like this line: "They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently."

But I think I'll stick with the 2Bmom method.

Another great book along the same lines is called Top of the Class: How Asian Parents Raise High Achievers. I use it in my sociology classes.

I'm going to have my son's chinese(Hong Kong born) mother read this woman's bull***t and give me her opinion. People can't cast a broad brush on a culture just because they belong to that culture, and everybody must believe. My wife does expect academic success, but not to the degree of mental distress she has seen in her culture. She also expects her son's to be as good as possible on the field with their TEAMS. This woman married an American and has been here since she was 1, and has little clue how it is back in the homeland. But I do agree that we make way to many excuses for our children's shortcomings in this country. In my opinion we are becoming too soft, and that can lead to us losing more ground on other cultures that are gaining ground way to fast for my liking. I will comment again later after I consult with the Wife.

Can kids be raised soft? Absolutely. I see it in our community. Can they be raised too rigidly? Of course. There may be a model for success in the posted story. But there should be a happy medium.

CELTDAD - Can't wait to hear back from your resident expert. I also thought the author used a mile-wide brush and made many sweeping generalizations about how Chinese raise their kids.

So what this lady is saying is that every mother among the 1,341,690,000 people living in China parents EXACTLY the same way, and that is the 100% exact right way to parent. And what she is also saying is that every mother among the 311,933,000 people living in the United States parents EXACTLY the same way, and that is the 100% wrong way to parent.

Just because you might have raised your kids this way doesn't mean its the right way. And just because you raised your kids this way doesn't mean its the only way.

I'd be very interested to sit in on the law classes that she teaches at Yale. I'd be curious about the extent of exaggeration that lies within everything she has to say.

We have already lost, irrecoverably I believe, the scientific battle.

The real difference maker, I feel, is that their government is more dedicated to public education.

Our government in the public education system is more dedicated to social entitlements than education.

The author's children, apparently typical of most "chinese" children were never allowed to (among other things) "play any instrument other than piano or violin."

My kid plays drums. I guess I lose in the gifted child sweepstakes.

Of course I am just kidding, and as obnoxious as some of the piece is, there are some excellent take homes that are readily applicable to baseball such as the importance of commitment and repetition in practice.

On the other hand, I am reading "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle at the suggestion of another forum posted. In that book, Coyle suggests that shear rote repetition is less productive as a mode of practice than what he describes as deep practice, or the process of working through mistakes until a skill is more or less "fully acquired" and in his research he found examples of "deep practice" in all cultures in many places around the world, in sports, literature, music, among other things.

It's a shame the author chose to write in a strident tone that's not likely to be well-received by readers that don't identify with the methods she describes. She's more likely to affront than inform as a result and that's too bad because it seems like there's something to learn there for anyone raising children in a competitive society.

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Originally posted by playfair:
The real difference maker, I feel, is that their government is more dedicated to public education.

Governments don't set expectations for kids, parents do. Expectations are set in a given culture.

For those who think she made sweeping generalizations should look at the list of the top 50 GPAs in a given high school.

"deep practice"... When the Soviets were very dominant in wrestling a kid practiced for 3 years before his first match.

This is an interesting discussion and I can spend 5 minutes or 5 hours.

Twenty-eight years in International Baseball [Japan, China, Korea and Australia] reveals the inner-working of the culture and the dynamics of the environment and the social dynamics of the people.

There are individuals expressions in each nation, however it may time to discover this trait, as it may be open to critical comment by group leaders.

This discussion was apparent a few hours ago with a Scout for a Japanese Pro team. We should train our children in "Social Psychology".

Bob

My wife is Chinese, and very highly educated. She imparted onto my children a very serious emphasis on school work and I am thankful that she did. My older boy (LHP), a history major, has made honor roll every semester in college, earning a perfect 4.0 this past semester. My younger boy is taking mathematics at West Point. My daughter (17) is talking about becoming reconstructive surgeon and passed the SAT in the top 20% of h.s. seniors when she was only 12.

As for me, I was the first in my family to ever get a college degree!

I can tell you there's nothing mysterious about Chinese culture. My wife's family stays connected with each other's lives. They are always there for each other, very involved in the lives of their children, and they all are living very American lives with tons of American friends. Amongst them are Microsoft engineers, school teachers and symphony artists. All with advanced degrees.

The secret is this: Sacrifice for your children.

Bob,

The groups of Japanese ballplayers in the stands were among the most memorable aspects of our time with your team on Kyushu (one among many). I can still see and hear them cheering wildly in unison as a block for their baseball academy's best players, who were representing their prefecture on the field against our visiting team of U.S. players.

All of us were struck by the fact that they would leave their homes for the baseball academies as early in life as they would to devote themselves to hours of baseball each day wrapped around their classes. If I recall correctly, they would come home one week a year to visit.

While one can debate forever the appropriateness of the approach from the standpoint of adolescent development and family relationships, one thing was obvious: it produced players who were rather remarkable in their ability to execute on the field.

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Originally posted by RJM:
Can kids be raised soft? Absolutely. I see it in our community. Can they be raised too rigidly? Of course. There may be a model for success in the posted story. But there should be a happy medium.

Good post.

This quote from the WSJ article caught my eye:

"That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child. The Chinese parent believes that their child will be strong enough to take the shaming and to improve from it."

Having counseled people of Asian heritage who grew up under this kind of shaming, I can tell you the long-term effects are not pretty or insignificant.

I told my 13yo daughter about this while bringing her home from dance. Needless to say the approach didn't hold much appeal for her.

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Originally posted by CADad:
I told my 13yo daughter about this while bringing her home from dance. Needless to say the approach didn't hold much appeal for her.

Obviously you didn't tell her in nearly strong enough terms, or she would have liked it.


One of my favorite sayings to this day, remains...

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Don't buy the results of the so called study. Too small a sampling for one thing. My wife & I both are friends with many Asian (including naturalized Chinese) couples with children, & the upbringing of their children is far from this rigorous. As an American law professor of Asian decent, sure one can sit in the splendor of New Haven, CT academia and come up with such a study, but is it newsworthy with anyone other than elitists?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Corner Dad:
This quote from the WSJ article caught my eye:

"That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child. The Chinese parent believes that their child will be strong enough to take the shaming and to improve from it."

Having counseled people of Asian heritage who grew up under this kind of shaming, I can tell you the long-term effects are not pretty or insignificant.

I was going to ask, for every brilliant kid pushed hard to the upper end of brilliance, how many kids end up emotionally damaged. I remember when people pointed to Tiger Woods as a positive example of being pushed from early childhood. How's that story going now? How about Todd Marinovich? Jennifer Capriatti? Brittney Spears?

She left out "jewish mother".

feeling sad here in the shoe factory... If only mom had had a temper tantrum when I couldn't perform "The little white donkey" correctly when she wanted me to.

Well the essay is having it's intended effect. The Wall Street Journal site that published the excerpt now has 2500+ comments in one day. Penguin released the book, "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mom" (from which the article is excerpted) today and it debuts at #11 on the Amazon best seller list. Amy Chua (author) is doing the publicity circuit including appearance on the network morning shows and an interview with Meredith Viera. However, she also appears to be in something of a backpedalling mode, disclaiming the headline for the excerpt, describing the book as here memoir of "coming of age as a mom," and how she is backing off that model. Her publicity releases today are also claiming the excerpt is meant to be over the top, humorous, and satirristic. I guess the bottom line is all this does is sell books. No more taking the bait for me.

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Originally posted by TPM:
She left out "jewish mother".

What's the Jewish mother's stance on child development? It's still a growing child until it finishes grad school? But even with an MBA I still occassionally hear, "It would have been nice had you gone to law school or med school." I guess, "My son the businessman" doesn't have the same ring as "My son the lawyer" or "My son the doctor."

quote:

Originally posted by tres_arboles:
Well the essay is having it's intended effect. The Wall Street Journal site that published the excerpt now has 2500+ comments in one day. Penguin released the book, "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mom" (from which the article is excerpted) today and it debuts at #11 on the Amazon best seller list. Amy Chua (author) is doing the publicity circuit including appearance on the network morning shows and an interview with Meredith Viera. However, she also appears to be in something of a backpedalling mode, disclaiming the headline for the excerpt, describing the book as here memoir of "coming of age as a mom," and how she is backing off that model. Her publicity releases today are also claiming the excerpt is meant to be over the top, humorous, and satirristic. I guess the bottom line is all this does is sell books. No more taking the bait for me.

I really thought that it was meant to be over the top, humorous and a satire actually?

Check this out, wikipedia states in an interview before her new book she claimed that although her kids speak chinese they were "raised jewish".

She didn't fool me one bit.

quote:

Check this out, wikipedia states in an interview before her new book she claimed that although her kids speak chinese they were "raised jewish".

She didn't fool me one bit.

You have to get up very early in the morning to fool a Jewish mother.

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Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Check this out, wikipedia states in an interview before her new book she claimed that although her kids speak chinese they were "raised jewish".

She didn't fool me one bit.

You have to get up very early in the morning to fool a Jewish mother.

I don't know about where you all are from, but in my neck of the woods, we have a terrible problem with the asian gangs. Now, I am quite sure their parents are asian as well, and they certainly aren't at the top of their class, unless you count, murder, fighting, and drug dealing.


I can see some "truth" to the fact the children of their culture are often pushed when they are young to excel and that carries onto adulthood, and often the philosophy of parenting in USA is to be a little more well rounded. But, with being more well rounded, you lose a little in each area (academics, athletics, social skills etc..)as you can't be perfect if you "practice" it all.

I find that some of these people who are raised the "eastern way" have the personality of a rock and have no social skills whatsoever. Unfortunately, I have seen many doctors lately that may be at the top of their class, but their bedside manner is awful. Doesn't make for a good experience for a sick patient.

Reading this thread reminded me of my University roommate – a guy who went to my High School and who I didn’t really know that well before university. If it wasn’t for this guy, I don’t think I would have made it through first year engineering. He was a machine.

We went to an engineering school that was very tough mathematically. I recall one freshman student who didn’t get accepted the year before, went to another engineering school, got a 75% in his first year there and barely scraped a 60% average going through it the second time. In fourth year, one of our professor’s made the statement that two thirds of the engineering professors at the university wouldn’t be accepted to the school based upon their high school marks.

In any event, this guy had a work ethic that was unbelievable. In the first term, he averaged four all-nighters a week and made the Dean’s list. He would coach me a bit with words like “you CAN do it”. He taught me how to power through the assignment load; to load up on carbs at about 11:00 pm and drink a lot of tea to do the all-nighters; ice cubes on the eyes help if you are going to get two hours or less sleep. I averaged one all-nighter a week. In second year, my roommate had physical problems because of the 70 pound fluctuations in weight he would go through from School Term to Work Term. He would put on the weight from the carb intake during a school term and take it off through swimming during his work term.

Engineering wasn’t his love – it was what his parents expected of him. He actually wanted to be an artist but, they threatened to take him out of art class in High School if he even mentioned it. It was actually a German-background family. He became a successful engineer but, I didn’t really get the sense that he was a very happy person.

I lived in a household where you didn’t escape piano lessons until you were through Grade 7 piano and Grade 2 Theory as a minimum (not even approaching Chinese Mom). My mom was a retired school teacher. She made it her job to make sure we were well-prepared for school. When I came home from school at lunch during primary grades, there was always reading time. She prepared quizzes before any test. We were the first three siblings in generations of our family to get degrees.

A couple of years back, I coached a kid whose parents came over from Japan for a two year-stint. Every Saturday was Japanese school – and there was no way this kid would even consider taking a day off for a game.

I think one of the key issues in the Chinese Mom articles is that these parents have the ability to teach at high levels themselves. Maybe that makes us a little uneasy too. The author’s career path is not necessarily in that direction however; I would bet money she could teach Grade 12 Calculus better than most Grade 12 math teachers. Their system requires a base – generations of academic success.

I think one of the most obvious examples of when the Chinese Mother system breaks down is the last Biggest Loser show. One of the contestants was made to feel shame throughout her life about her weight. I know that my son has classmates that no matter what they do, they will not have the ability to achieve academic performance. What happens in the Chinese Mom family when this is the case?

I installed a whiteboard in my HS freshman’s room. I read his notes and texts and try to prepare him not for what he’s doing now but, what’s coming up. Right now, although a good student, he is learning to study. Between HS Sports and 8 hours of baseball a week at indoor facilities, he is loaded pretty good.

I do this because right-or-wrong, the world economy is at our doorstep, and we seem to avoid the issue that it is performance-based. The opportunities for easy-gain are not as prevalent as they once were and in most cases, you will have to bring tangible value to the table to be more successful than your peers.

To bring this back to HSBBW… How many of the posters here are really looking at the education first and the baseball second? How many of the kids will actually complete their degree at the college they attended because of a baseball scholarship? How many will take weaker academic routes, so that they can PLAY? I’ve done some following of players through schools and I get the sense there are not a lot of kids who complete their degrees as cleanly as they might have without the baseball.

For most of us here, there is opportunity and optimism in all of this. Our kids have WORKED as well as played at this game. Many will have the option to have some portion of higher education paid for and for some making continued education possible. Some will have the opportunity to gain entrance to a school they might otherwise not have had the chance to get into. Our kids have the benefit of becoming focussed on higher education earlier, avoiding the many distractions that are all around them. We are not the Chinese Mom but, I sense our little niche is closer to it than many of our children’s peer households.

I showed the article to my son. He's in high honors and AP classes. He said the Asian kids are at the top of every one of his classes. He said they approach school symphony the way he approaches travel baseball. He's seen Asians break down and cry in the hallway when they find out they didn't make first violin or first row.

My daughter was in the school symphony. Every strings player was an Asian. This is despite the Asian population of the district only being 2%.

My son is taking 4 AP classes. This semester, he made a B in one of them.



NO BASEBALL FOR YOU!

....not...

Just had a discussion with one of the folks in my office. He teaches an entrepreneurship class where he takes groups of students and forms virtual companies. He said that if he has four Asians and one American in a group, the likelihood is that the American will be the leader. The Asians might work harder, study harder, do better on tests, they might very well be smarter, but it is the American who will innovate and create.

2Bmom,

I think you hit nail on the head, the American always has been and always will be a "leader".
I believe it is just natural for us Americans to always take the leadership role regardless of books, brains or upbringing. We are LEADERS!

I don't know about anyone else but I became a "leader" so that somebody else would have to do all the work. Laziness is the path to invention.

Now if only someone had told me being a leader would take more work, not less!

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He said that if he has four Asians and one American in a group, the likelihood is that the American will be the leader.

Hmmm...all of the Asians at my son's school are Americans...

Hawk - this is engineering grad school. It might be a little different.

quote:

The Asians might work harder, study harder, do better on tests, they might very well be smarter, but it is the American who will innovate and create.

The problems with honoring intellectual property rights in China would confirm that too.

For the record - this is just an observation of the way that things tend to shake out over a significant period of time, and perhaps a reflection of cultural upbringing.

"The climax of the book occurs in a restaurant in Moscow, with 13-year-old Lulu screaming, “I hate the violin. I HATE my life. I HATE you, and I HATE this family!” She throws a water glass to the floor, where it shatters into pieces. The Tiger Mother relents, and gives Lulu permission to quit the violin so she can spend more time playing tennis—a non-Chinese-mother-approved activity.".

A good friend has a son who was a very talented tennis player. By fourteen he was playing exhibitions at the US Open. But the kid couldn't please his father. The father would only pick at the kid's game even when he walked away with the trophy.

The kid was a heavily recruited college prospect. The kid finally flipped out at a tennis showcase. He smashed his racket, told his father in front of an entire audience where to shove the racket and never played competitively again. He's in college now. He took up golf as a weekend hobby. He won't even hit tennis balls.

Just as everything in life, anything can be a blessing and a curse. My oldest son's 2014 college (freshmen) class has 15% identified themselves as Asian. I actually thought there were more after visiting the campus a few times. Applying to this school as an Asian is the most difficult & competitve path becasue you are competing against other Asian kids for a few slots. Not surprisingly these slots are in schools to become doctors, vets or engineers.

My concern is what happens to those who move onto college but don't live up their Mom's desire to be the best? Last time I checked, only one can be #1. I found my answer right here (URL below), and I really feel bad for this kid. He probably got his first C+ ever in first semester freshmen year, and his Asian parents are threatening to pull the plug. He is looking for the easiest classes to take to get his GPA so he can stay. Our philosphy has been to weather the first semester engineering "storm" and thngs can only get better. Apparently, that philosphy is not shared with this students parents. My son did pretty well his first semester, but we would not have freaked out with a 3.1 nor handled it this way. It is just a different way of parenting, and I'm very partial to my way and mrs fenwaysouth's way!

4.0 GPA next semester or done

quote:

Originally posted by Hawk19:

quote:

He said that if he has four Asians and one American in a group, the likelihood is that the American will be the leader.

Hmmm...all of the Asians at my son's school are Americans...

That's right, Hawk19. Some of these posters might well remember hence we came.