Bad coaching advice - what to do

Does your son hit well using the academy methods?

quote:

Our track record speaks for itself,

What does this mean? He has a winning program or that lots of his players go to the next level or what??

Perhaps we do it wrong but the only time we tinker with a players swing is when he is going bad or we see a flaw

Well this sounds like our high school coach. What my son is doing is when the coach is around and during batting practice he swings like the coach wants and during the games he does it like he was taught by me. He is hitting the ball better since I first asked this same question.

My high school coach put it this way with most everything we did in the game..

You can do it your way until it isn't working. If what you want to do doesn't work, then you'll do it our way.

quote:

Perhaps we do it wrong but the only time we tinker with a players swing is when he is going bad or we see a flaw

My son's coach once told my wife when she asked what my son should change...'We don't fix what isn't broke...'

Boy you guys are quick!! Thanks for all the input. My son is an average hitter. Here is what the JV coach is telling him that is different than the instruction he's getting at the academy(RBI).

All hitting off a tee:
1) hit with a bent front leg
2) wrap the bat around the shoulder
3) hands back first, then stride, then pivot, then hit, head ends up a little forward than it was at address

RBI taught him this in contrast:
1) when you make contact with the ball, the front leg should be straight
2) bat should finish up around the neck after good extension
3) hands and stride foot separate at the same time, head stays in about the same spot as address

The "you do it our way" quote doesn't hold water with me. He's making everyone do this drill, not just Ben and I just think he's wrong....

For all you who said just do what they want in the drills/BP, I told him the same thing - just do what he asks. He's already caught the wrath of the coach by explaining what he's learned. You know how some coaches can be when you tell them you think they're wrong.....OH BOY...

quote:

Originally posted by dPayton:
For all you who said just do what they want in the drills/BP, I told him the same thing - just do what he asks. He's already caught the wrath of the coach by explaining what he's learned. You know how some coaches can be when you tell them you think they're wrong.....OH BOY...

imo, i can think of very few situations where a kid should be telling a coach he is wrong. funny, my boss just hates it when i tell him how he's running his business wrong, too?

general schwarzkopf said "there's more than one way to look at problem, and they may all be right."

L8 - this is a little different. The guy who he has learned from played AA, managed AA and was a hitting coach for an AA team. The JV coach never played higher than high school ball.

my boss is a college dropout....i've got a 4 year degree!

if you're son is fortunate enough to play college ball and his new coach only has college coaching experience, will he tell the college coach he's wrong if it differs from something his intructor taught?

the point is, right or wrong a kid should not "correct" a coach. teach your kid the diplomacy of "going with it" or he may be tagged as uncoachable....just my two cents!

btw, my son is working with two former major leaguers, one is his grandpa. he has worked with former college players and a double a guy and a single a manager from san diego......they all offered something. good luck!!

Our son was told before the season started by his academy instructors on this exact subject- when in Rome do as the Romans do. And you can't play the next level until you complete this level.

So we took that to mean if this is what the coaches want from you that is what you should give them.

Just because it's different or not what you teach doesn't make it bad or wrong. If there were only one way to teach hitting then every single hitter at every single level of ball would look the same. It's not that way.

That being said I'm not a fan of the "it's only going to be done my way" philosophy. I pretty much teach what you described the AA guy was teaching but I have seen the other method work. So if I got a guy who can hit using that method then I'm going to pencil them in and tell them how great they are.

Your son is going to have to learn to deal with different types of coaches and teachings as he goes through this game. Some of it's great and some of it's terrible and some of it won't make a lick of sense. Doesn't really make it wrong. Plus, if something is changed it won't feel "right" to the player on the first try. He has developed a habit (good or bad) that he is used to. Any change to that habit is going to feel uncomfortable. It doesn't mean they should stop trying to make the change if it's good for them. It's like riding a bicycle - you don't just hop on one and start riding it. You have to learn how to ride it and that takes time.

I got a player right now who drops his hands when he hits. Obviously he is not doing very well right now. I got him doing a drill everyday that is helping but he's still dropping his hands although not as bad. It will probably take another week of doing that drill before it becomes a regular habit for him. We got to keep working at it and make the change. If we quit after the first time trying the new drill he would never get better.

You said your was an average hitter - to me that means he can improve (of course you can say that about everyone). He might pick up something in the new style the JV coach is teaching that will help him.

Teach him to cope with what's going on to make adjustments. I realize you are on here pretty much just venting and there's nothing wrong with that but think of this - if you go to the coach and say anything (even if you mean it positively) do you think he will change? I doubt he will.

L8 - I hear ya! I guess I mistyped or mis-communicated about what my son said to the coach. I don't think he said he was wrong, just what he learned from RBI was different than what his coach was telling him. And I REALLY know what you're saying about being labeled uncoachable. I keep telling him over and over - do what he asks and bust your ars....Thanks for the advice, I really didn't know what to do about this.

Lefty - 100% agree now with that. I just wasn't sure how to proceed with it when he came home all upset telling me the coach pulled him in his office because he wasn't doing it HIS way...Ya learn as you go...

Hi Coach - In regards to what the coach is teaching, I just think he's wrong, period. No one is taught to have your leg bent when making contact with a ball, well, as much as I've heard/seen. That's probably my biggest gripe. I'm having a hard time with a guy this rigid teaching something I know(or should I say think) is wrong. No one can tell me this coach knows more than the guy at RBI. I watch MLB swings all the time and everything he's taught at RBI is mimic'd on tv all the time. I guess I'm just worried he'll fall into bad habits. You're probably right too - I'm just venting. I need to sit back and enjoy the ride and stop worrying...Easier said than done! Thanks!!

PS - I'd never go to the coach and confront him on anything. He's got too much on his plate to begin with..

Sometimes two coaches are saying the same thing two different ways. But the bottom line for your son is doing what the coach says and playing, or tuning him out and sitting. Your son may not have been hitting well enough for the coach to intervene. Most coaches (not all) won't mess with success.

Are you sure the coach said to hit with a bent front knee? Could he have meant bent in his stance?

RJM - I thought so too(not messing with success) but after a practice I saw a few weeks ago, he had everyone doing that same drill. Note that he really hadn't seen the kids hit yet at that point so he really didn't know who could hit and who couldn't. And yep, when the coach was showing the kids what he wanted his leg was bent throughout. I've just never seen that. Couple that with the bat wrapped around the shoulder - it just looked very, very odd.

quote:

Couple that with the bat wrapped around the shoulder

Maybe the coach isn't saying this properly. Maybe he doesn't understand the concept. Hitters c0ck the bat at an angle over their head to get whip (hope I explained this well enough to be understood).

RJM - My bad - when I say wrapped - I mean at the end of the swing, not during the wristc0ck at the beginning. The guy at RBI wanted my son to end with his hands higher than shoulder height.

quote:

All hitting off a tee:
1) hit with a bent front leg
2) wrap the bat around the shoulder
3) hands back first, then stride, then pivot, then hit, head ends up a little forward than it was at address

RBI taught him this in contrast:
1) when you make contact with the ball, the front leg should be straight
2) bat should finish up around the neck after good extension
3) hands and stride foot separate at the same time, head stays in about the same spot as address

ummm, yeah...go with rbi...other guy is way lost

A suggestion:

Have your professional instructor offer to give a "free" clinic to the High School Varsity and JV teams.

Everyone benefits from this educational exchange.

Bob Williams

PS: Several years ago in Adelaide, South Australia,
in our 1st game our RF Jared Sandberg [a cousin]
had a slight "uppercut" in his left handed swing.
My son Robert was the coach and he removed Jared from the 2nd game. Jim Lentine [Texas Ranger hitting coach] and I placed Jared on a tee and soft toss for one hour.

After this special practice, he was inserted into the game as a pinch hitter. Jared hit a three run HR and during the next 10 games he hit 8 more HR.

Also on this team was Dave La Roche [our pitching coach]; Adam and Adam La Roche [Pirates].

the swing does have a slight upward angle at contact...a hitter has to meet the ball on the same plan that its thown on...get the hitting zone early and as your hitting it...it will be heading up a tad bit...almost like the letter "U" if you will

Bob - I would but he lives an hour away. I suppose could ask but then I might get in trouble for showing the kids a "different" swing than what is being coached here. I only know the JV coach now, the varsity coach may be less rigid in his beliefs. That's an interesting story Jared. Nice to have some MLB'rs at your disposal, eh?

Texas - Yeah, I'm with you on rbi and the mechanics of the swing as far as how the bat travels. I wouldn't feel as strongly as I do about the academy if I didn't see most players doing the same thing on TV.

dpayton, if you google any player, click on images, you'll get some great pics...maybe tell your son to print some off and put in his locker. Maybe the coach will see them...rbi has a good rep around the country so i'm pretty sure that they arent leading your son in the wrong direction. one note: a stiff left leg is what allows you to generate torque in your swing...if you have a bent front side, its hard to get the hips through...and the hips are what start the hands

I've googled a LOT of players - I especially like Manny and Longoria's swing. That's a great idea to put the pictures up in his locker! I'll recommend that to him. Agreed on the stiff front leg - back hip can't fire through like it should if it's not. But I'm still going to "do as the Romans do" as suggested previously and tell him to do whatever the coach says. It's not worth the battle.

quote:

Originally posted by texasbaseballcoach:
the swing does have a slight upward angle at contact...a hitter has to meet the ball on the same plan that its thown on...get the hitting zone early and as your hitting it...it will be heading up a tad bit...almost like the letter "U" if you will

Coach, it can be hard to visualize what someone is trying to explain about hitting so I aplogize in advance if I am not understanding.
When you say the swing has a slight upward angle at contact, doesn't that produce top spin?
If so, isn't the current thinking that you want to produce back spin through the point of contact?

Your a good parent dpayton...sometimes when people are doing it wrong and doing it wrong to your kids...makes it really to want to shout out loud...maybe even have your son just talk baseball with the coach..say "hey coach, did you see manny swing it last night" could spark some hitting dialog...I encourage guys to ask questions, we all can learn something new...hitting is day by day, at bat by at bat, pitch by pitch...thing can change at a moments notice

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_km0P...+dodgers+hitting.jpg

I totally understand infielddad...its not easy..go look at this pic of manny...in order for him to get the bat in the hitting zone, the back shoulder will slightly dip...now the bat is goin down because he's holding up high...once it gets in the hitting zone, it will be flat...as he makes contact with the ball, it will be slightly heading up(part of the letter "U" i talked about)and thats why they finish high. Getting the barrel too far out in front of your hand too early or hitting around the baseball will cause top spin. Remember, good pitchers are trying to change planes with the baseball so as a hitter we have to get on that plane in order to hit the ball solid. If the hitter swings down (thats one plane) and the pitcher in throwing down (thats same plane as hitter) they would have to meet the perfect point in that plane to even make contact..and if you make contact, its like slicing a golf ball...

hope this made sense to you...let me know

quote:

Originally posted by dPayton:
RJM - My bad - when I say wrapped - I mean at the end of the swing, not during the wristc0ck at the beginning. The guy at RBI wanted my son to end with his hands higher than shoulder height.

Then D I believe the guy at RBI is telling him wrong. The bat should not end up higher than his front shoulder. It should end up hitting him in the upper part of the back horizontal to the ground (you will sometimes notice MLB players with pine tar across that spot of their back). This keeps the swing plane from being an uppercut and having too small of hitting surface through the swing.

I do not agree with the bent front leg but could possibly see a slight bend as long as the front foot is locked in place. I think the moving back of the hands and the tap can be, but don't have to be, at the same time. I have seen success both ways. I think it is a personal preference. You just don't want to try to time getting the foot down and starting the swing. Batters need to get their foot down and keep it down.

Dennis Jordan at East Cobb is the best hitting instructor I have ever seen and he teaches the front elbow should drive down along your side which puts the bat hitting you in the upper part of the arm and vertically across the upper back. If you have seen or played his 15U Astros teams it is hard to argue with his methods.

If you are going to look at MLB players you need to look at players that hit the same style as your son (Power HR hitters, gap to gap hitters, slap hitters, etc) to see how their swings are. Each of these is different.

Maybe there are some pieces that are correct about both instructions. Finding a way to incorporate the best pieces is the challenge.

ec_dad,

go to my post above and check out the pic. your telling everyone that the bat doesnt have a slight upper cut? manny can hit a bit

quote:

Originally posted by texasbaseballcoach:
ec_dad,

go to my post above and check out the pic. your telling everyone that the bat doesnt have a slight upper cut? manny can hit a bit

Manny is a HR hitter that is not trying to hit line drives and balls in the gap. If your going to swing for the fence every time, then of course you need swing up to lift the ball, but most players are not that type.

And that picture of Manny hitting is a terrible example of hitting mechanics. That back shoulder is not slightly dipped, it is way down. The bat head is dropped back behind the plate. Just because it is a picture does not mean it was a good swing or a good hit.

Manny is like Gary Sheffield. You can't teach ballplayers to swing like that and be successful.

ok, your entitled to your opinion as am i, i'll stick with my way tho...go google the little player in the league who hits 1 hr a yr and his swing will be the same...

a homerun IS a miss hit line drive...by bout 1 cm

quote:

Originally posted by texasbaseballcoach:
ok, your entitled to your opinion as am i, i'll stick with my way tho...go google the little player in the league who hits 1 hr a yr and his swing will be the same...

a homerun IS a miss hit line drive...by bout 1 cm

You are right, everyone has their own opinions, interpretations, and styles in how they go about coaching mechanics. Which is where I think this post really started. Or at least the question around, how to deal with it when you get a coach that wants you to use a style different than you were taught.

Here is a link to a photo of Dustin Pedroia. I think the two biggest differences between his swing and Manny's in the two pictures is the location of the pitch. Manny's was down and away, Dustin's is up. Dustin does have his front leg slightly bent and his bat head is parallel to the ground for more contact surface in the swing plane. Now of course that changes somewhat depending on where the pitch is located, but with his swing in the photo, his bat will end up hitting him in the back shoulder.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/...210998&playerId=6393

Here's a photo of Chipper Jones' swing and his bat will not end up over his front shoulder.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8.../2866191039/sizes/m/

good pics, all slightly hitting the ball on the up like ive stated

quote:

Originally posted by texasbaseballcoach:
good pics, all slightly hitting the ball on the up like ive stated

I not disagreeing with that statement, I am just arguing the point of RBI on where the hands should end up.

Here is a great link of Chipper Jones' swing analysis. It shows both your point, and mine.

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pro..._LH_1B_ToCF_001.html


Look at some of the other hitters on that site, as well, these are great.

I personally dont care if the finish is right at the shoulder or a bit higher...fred megriff was way high, klesco was way high...but that chipper swing was nice, it moves down to the hitting zone...slight upswing at contact, high finish...somewhere around head or shoulders

dPayton

This will seem like a stupid question but since you seem to "know" so much about hitting why are you paying for an ouside coach?

The bent knee and stuff sounds like what they taught at LSU at one point. I don't particularly like it but it worked for them.

(I'm going on memory and could be all wrong on this.)