Bad coaching advice - what to do

I continue to have trouble visualizing a hitter dropping his back shoulder, hitting the ball with the bat on a slight incline, and being able to apply backspin, which is so critical in ball flight.
From the sources of hitting I consider pretty reliable, my understanding is that keeping the back shoulder higher, starting with the hands high, staying inside the ball and throwing your hands directly to the ball were/are critical to driving the ball, creating back spin, and avoiding top spin.

Texas & EC,

Sounds like your both talking similar points, but just expressing it differently. Perhaps this is the problem that the OP is having with the academy & the coach-although I strongly disagree with the bent knee.

Some food for thought:
1). The best swing is the one that allows you to adjust to the pitch that is thrown.
2). Considering #1, each swing will have some variation, however big or small, which leads to the finish not always being the same.
3). Finish often has more to do with a hitter's style than the substance of his core mechanics.
4). Still photos often only tell a small part of the story. You don't see the point of contact, what happened just before, just after. etc.
5). If analyzed with frame-by-frame video, you will see that most all MLBer's have a firm front leg right around contact, some for longer than others, also a product of the pitch. BTW-Chipper Jones is truely a great professional hitter. That was not one of his best swings. He actually got jammed, but adjusted mid-swing and was able to muscle the ball back up the middle.
6). MLBer's can and do occasionally hit a ball well, even a HR, when fooled, or not having the "perfect swing". The pitching is pretty good up there, you know? But they are the best hitters in the world, big, strong athletes in their prime, it's going to happen, but that doesn't mean that it was a good swing. If it was then why do they not swing like that all the time?

JMHO.

quote:

And that picture of Manny hitting is a terrible example of hitting mechanics. That back shoulder is not slightly dipped, it is way down.

It's perfect mechanics. It's obviously a low pitch. The swing is parallel to his shoulders as it should be.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

And that picture of Manny hitting is a terrible example of hitting mechanics. That back shoulder is not slightly dipped, it is way down.

It's perfect mechanics. It's obviously a low pitch. The swing is parallel to his shoulders as it should be.

Yep. Exactly RJM!

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
I continue to have trouble visualizing a hitter dropping his back shoulder, hitting the ball with the bat on a slight incline, and being able to apply backspin, which is so critical in ball flight.

I have no comment on the batter's mechanics or his shoulder. However, on the issue of backspin, the path of the bat--upward or downward angle-- is of secondary importance compared to what physicists call the impact parameter. A large impact parameter simply means a more glancing collision.

The initial trajectory of the ball and the spin of the baseball are closely linked. Any pitched ball which is hit in the air--not a grounder--will have backspin, and lots of it. It's hard for most of us to visualize exactly how the impact of the bat and ball produces spin, but it is easier to predict the intial trajectory. If the head of the bat is traveling horizontally at the time of impact, and the point of tangency (the first point of contact) between the bat and the ball is below the midpoint of the ball, which also implies above the centerline of the bat, the ball will be hit above a horizontal trajectory. The lower the point of tangency on the ball, the steeper the upward angle of launch.

If the blow is glancing enough, the ball will be hit almost straight up--the familiar popup to the catcher. And the ball will have extreme backspin, because the ball will "roll" over the surface of the bat. The converse is true. In order to get topspin, the batted ball will necessarily have an initial downward direction.

If the batter can make contact at the midpoint of the ball, there would be, roughly speaking, no spin in either direction. More correctly, the bat would need to travel upwards at the same angle, say 15 degrees, that the pitch is travels downwards, and the point of contact 15 degrees below horizontal, in order to get zero spin. A horizontal swing travels downwards at 15 degrees relative to the direction of the pitch, and that swing produces backspin, and a slightly downward trajectory, if the bat contacts the ball 15 degrees down from the midpoint.

So think about a swing in which the direction of the bat is horizontal as it contacts the ball. Compare that to a swing which hits the same spot on the ball, but which is traveling downwards at 10 degrees. The downward swing will cause about 15% greater backspin, but it also will send the ball on a trajectory which is 10 degrees lower. The lower trajectory swamps the effect of additional backspin, and the batted ball will fly a shorter distance.

Want to get more backspin so you can hit the ball farther? Contact a little bit lower on the ball.

quote:

Want to get more backspin so you can hit the ball farther? Contact a little bit lower on the ball.

What swing path produces that result with the most consistency?
It gets taught in college and Milb over, and over, and over, and over again.

TR - The only reason I know a little bit about the swing is from RBI. I was amazed at how little I did know before my son started going there. I still take him there because my son can be a PITA at times with me trying to show him things - the dad/son thing. Also, the guy at RBI can pick up on stuff much, much quicker than I.

I'm glad I found this site, you guys have been great.

quote:

quote:
And that picture of Manny hitting is a terrible example of hitting mechanics. That back shoulder is not slightly dipped, it is way down.
It's perfect mechanics. It's obviously a low pitch. The swing is parallel to his shoulders as it should be.

yeah manny may have the best rh swing of all time...those are flawless mechanics guys...bottom line for a hitter, to me, you have to get on plane with the baseball. Pitchers throw off a hill. If a hitter doesnt get in the hitting zone quickly and have and meet the ball on the same plane, they will never be a consistant hitter. Back shoulder allows this to happen

Texas,

Manny is certainly the best RH hitter of this generation, and in the end maybe the best ever. Pujuols is certainly building a case. If you look past all the bs with Manny (I know-that can be hard to do), he has a tremendous knowledge of the strike zone and the pitchers, and great pitch recognition. He works hard, studies hard. And here is the thing-he lets the ball get deeper than anyone in baseball before committing his swing. Cut thru the bs and watch him, because it might be a while before you see RH hitter like him.

getagoodpitchtohit,

Yeah the bs can be hard to handle sometimes but as far as a hitter goes, top flight. If kids want to copy somebody, that guy is the guy to copy.

found some of these points interesting:
see what ted williams says about a "level swing" not level to the ground but the ball...ball is coming in on an angle so we gotta get on that angle

Why do we teach hitters to hit the "top-half" of the ball - when PITCHERS are taught to get hitters to HIT the "top-half" of the ball? Does this make sense? Hitters should be doing the exact OPPOSITE of what the pitchers want them to do!

60 years ago Ted Williams said, "The hips lead the way." Why do we think this hitting concept has changed down through the years? Why do we think we're SMARTER than the the "World's Greatest Hitter?"

60 years ago Ted Williams said, "The hitter must swing level to the ball - not level to the ground." Again, why do we think we're smarter and know more than the the "World's Greatest Hitter?"

Pitching coaches teach pitchers to THROW ground balls. So, why do hitting coaches teach hitters to HIT ground balls?

Why do we teach the "level" swing? How does a hitter swing "level" at a pitch at the knees? In fact, how does a hitter hit ANY low pitch without dipping the rear shoulder?

Why do coaches instruct hitters to swing with "level" shoulders and "stay back" AT THE SAME TIME?

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
I continue to have trouble visualizing a hitter dropping his back shoulder, hitting the ball with the bat on a slight incline, and being able to apply backspin, which is so critical in ball flight.
From the sources of hitting I consider pretty reliable, my understanding is that keeping the back shoulder higher, starting with the hands high, staying inside the ball and throwing your hands directly to the ball were/are critical to driving the ball, creating back spin, and avoiding top spin.

Wow..

How do you keep the back shoulder "higher"? Higher than what? The front shoulder? You'd be swinging straight down.

"throwing the hands" ?

"creating back spin" ?

It's not hard really...at least to visualize it.

Look / watch the best hitters in the MLB. Try to do what they do, how they do it.

Swing level to the shoulders. Keep the back elbow close to the body on the swing. Use the core muscles to initiate and drive the swing.

Watch the ground balls stop and the line drives start.

quote:

Originally posted by getagoodpitchtohit:
Texas,

Manny is certainly the best RH hitter of this generation, and in the end maybe the best ever. Pujuols is certainly building a case. If you look past all the bs with Manny (I know-that can be hard to do), he has a tremendous knowledge of the strike zone and the pitchers, and great pitch recognition. He works hard, studies hard. And here is the thing-he lets the ball get deeper than anyone in baseball before committing his swing. Cut thru the bs and watch him, because it might be a while before you see RH hitter like him.

Anybody see that article on Manny's swing..

Here it is

http://insider.espn.go.com/vid...nsdr_mod_mlb_***_***

Texas,

You are preaching my gospel!
Ted was THE greatest hitter of all time. Hit .388 39 HR 119 RBI at 39 yrs. old!

Thing is, hitting was just hitting, with most of the principals that you mentioned, until the 70's when super light aluminum bats for youth and astro turf came around. Then you could cheat. Didn't have to have the mechanics to hit the ball hard. Just whip that aluminum bat and watch the ball fly, or slap a ball on the turf and watch it take off. New hitting principles started being advanced by some. Thus began the fight.

After 2 decades or so of this, astro turf is almost completely gone, youth baseball has bat restrictions, and highschool age swing wood bat equivilants and even play in wood bat tourneys in summer and fall. Those old tried and true principles are making a comeback in a big way.

Most of the MLBer's swings now reflect these principles. That's why so many daddy's out there watch an MLB game, and then question why their son isn't being taught to swing like the best hitters in the world. ESPN, internet, and video analysis has made this possible.

quote:

Manny is certainly the best RH hitter of this generation, and in the end maybe the best ever.

This is obviously coming from a ManRam fan. Nothing against Manny's swing or hitting results which are both great...

No doubt Manny is an amazing hitter, but I find best ever a little strong… Even the best now could be strongly argued. In fact, by the numbers he is not the best currently.

If we take the average production based on 162 games, look at these results… Also consider the ball parks each has played in.

Ramirez – 184 hits - 39 doubles – 41 homeruns – 133 RBI - .314 batting ave - .411 OBP - .594 SLG – 1.005 OPS – 128 strike outs – 94 BB

Pujols – 200 hits - 45 doubles – 42 homeruns – 129 RBI - .334 batting average - .425 OBP - .624 SLG – 1.049 OPS – 66 strike outs – 91 BB

These numbers above might say that Pujols is the best. After all, he hits .20 points higher with better power numbers and strikes out half as much.

Might as well copy him if we want to copy someone.

pgstaff, do an ave of what they did at the same age...maybe a bit more accurate then...manny is getting up there a bit and we dont know what pujols will do in 7 yrs...but hey, they are both great players

pgstaff...already looked...def albert has the better early stats...i think manny has the better looking swing tho

PG,

I shouldn't have said certainly. I also said that Pujols is building a case, Manny just has a 6-7 year head start. Albert and Manny's swings exhibit the same core princples, Albert just does some things at the start and finish that would be harder for young hitters to emulate because Albert is such a big, strong man. He is the best high ball hitter in baseball. Why do they keep throwing it there???
Roy Oswalt is not his biggest fan. Check Alberts history with him. He has made him his perssonal BP pitcher over his career!

texasbaseballcoach,

Too much work to do the averages, but at age 29 here were these results for each. Both having 9 years at that time.

Ramirez – 277 homeruns Pujols – 323 homeruns
Ramirez – 929 RBI Pujols – 995 RBI

Ramirez - First 9 years batting average. .170 - .269 - .308 - .309 - .328 - .294 - .333 - .351 - .306

Pujols – First 9 years batting average. .329 - .314 - .359 - .331 - .333 - .331 - .327 - .357 - .315 (so far this year)

I’d have to give the nod to Pujols.

getagoodpitchtohit, Wow that is a long name!
But a good name!

I wasn't really arguing. Just wanted to bring up the amazing career that Albert is having. Not just his swing, but also prefer him as a role model.

Thanks PG, your bringing me around. Manny has that sweetness that we usually only see from the lhh but stats speak for themselves

As a role model no doubt!

Texas is right in referencing Manny's swing to a lefty.

Pujol is a beast.

I might add that Albert has worked very hard to make himself a good 1B.

Manny has obviously not worked very hard to make himself a good OF.

Just remember that your swing doesn't really matter that much if you do not get a good pitch to hit!

I thought the most revealing statistics comparing those two is the number of strikeouts. Manny strikes out twice as much. Pujols was drafted as a shortstop so he should be a good 1B. Come to think of it, wasn't Manny also drafted as a shortstop?

Both are good models of a great swing. I know this might sound weird, but Mark McGwire had one of the best fundamental swings I can remember. I think lots of people over look that because he was so big and a power hitter. Of course, now days he has lost a lot of respect, but his swing was a beauty technically IMO.

PG - Manny was drafted as an OF according to this site:
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/1991draft.shtml

I have a very hard time thinking of Manny playing IF given his amazing OF play.

i know this isn't a hitting forum, but i found this to be a very interesting story. sometimes you just don't know why things happen.



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c...ute/flashbacks/1986/

20dad,
Thanks, that was great...loved reading those guys talk hitting

Great archives there 20dad!

Why wouldn't we want to teach what this man is saying? I just don't understand. Did you see the way he dissected the swings of 2 of the best hitters of their generation, and took the conversation to a level that was a little over their head? The Science of Hitting should be required reading.

Just a reminder that Williams .388 39 HR 119 RBI at 39 yrs. old! Steroidball may have clouded just how wonderful a feat that was.

while ted williams was/is the best hitter of all time. my son's have had the priveledge of working with walt hriniak. watching him teach/work, will make you a believer. not to mention the results.

.
While we are on Hitting mechanics...

I was wondering, what is better a rotational or linear approach?....

44
.

PG

Coach Mandl will tell you that Manny is possibly the best outfielder that he has ever had at George Washington HS

They recently had a great piece on MLBTV with regard to Manny going back to his HS days with Coach Mandl----they even went so far as to compare his swing back then to now---they had video clips side by and nothing has changed at all in his swing and I do not think he ever took a lesson from a "pro"

quote:

Originally posted by observer44:
.
While we are on Hitting mechanics...

I was wondering, what is better a rotational or linear approach?....

44
.

LOL!!!

TR and 20 Dad;

That was a "great" article in Sports Illustrated.
A classic. I study it constantly and quiz young and old players.

Steve Mandl traveled to Australia in 1998 with three players from George Washington HS, including Manny's nephew. The nephew had the similar swing as Manny.

Last week, my son [SSK Promotions Manager] visited one hour in Dodger Stadium with Manny. They discussed hitting.

On our team in 1997, was Dave La Roche, Adam La Roche and Gerald Laird.

Bob

O44,
We teach the modified Lau/Hriniak rolinear Tuttle approach with Epsteinian drills and Einsteinian non-Newtonian mechanics and we emphasize the Marv Throneberry mental and marketing approach. But if you send money we'll teach anything you want with 110% sincerity.

That was a great article (Williams, Mattingly and Boggs) thanks for the link. It just reinforces in my mind that many times, even the great hitters, don't truly know how they do it, they JUST do it.

I do know that there are plenty of coaches / academies out there teaching to SWING DOWN on the ball. And alot of 'em are getting big money to do it. It's frustrating as coach. Case in point:

I coached a kid a few years ago. The kid is a man-child. Towers above everyone his own age, cat like reflexes, speed, just a PURE natural athlete.

I worked with him using his body to generate power / bat speed and with his already over-abundance of natural ability, he was flat CRUSHING the ball. coaches regularly walked him a couple of times a game.

Fast forward..he's 12 now. He's STILL growing. Still an unbelieveable athlete. However he's playing for an Academy team. The coach there is a young guy who played some college ball and coached as an asst at a college.

He's a big believer in "hands to the ball"...

I saw the difference in this kid's swing (really the whole team)...we pitched him inside and he never managed more than a couple of hard ground balls. This guy is teaching him to extend his arms before contact, and use his HAND as the primary way to hit the baseball.

you get it out over the plate...he'll hurt it. You tie him up, he can't get the bat head on it.

We were playing his team, and I overheard the Coach, tell his pitchers to "tie us up inside" right before the game started.

We had several line shots into LF and LC that inning. All on inside fastballs.

My #4 guy came up. First pitch, inside FB..he hits it about 250ft foul to LF. Next pitch, same thing, except a bit further. The next pitch was inside, but down below the knees. He hit this one over the LF fence....

I heard the pitcher tell his Coach "All of 'em were inside Coach".

Long winded sure...

But the point is this...in my lowly opinion.

If a hitter has problems driving inside pitches HARD, then more than likely he's not using his core, keeping the back elbow close to the body, to generate power / bat speed.

I see it everyday. I see kids that are GOOD athletes, who are several years older and much bigger than some of my 12U guys, and the 12U guys will hit the ball harder and farther than the older guys.

It's not about size and strength. It's about using the core to generate the power / speed to hit the ball..meeting the ball on an upward plane, and hitting the ball in the air.

Again, just my 2 cents.

ctandc - The coach told him to have both arms extended before he makes contact? Jeez, I'm no expert but that sounds crazy. The lead arm is ALMOST stiff but the back arm should have quite a bit of bend to it. You're right, that kid will never handle the inside pitch hittin like that.

Had this happen with my son it ended up ruining his confidence and destroyed his development. Took his effectiveness away as a control pitcher with great "stuff" as they tried to turn him into a power pitcher. He went from great command and control to a two pitch very hittable shell "no-wonder, no mystery, next pitch fastball down the middle, eeekism".

Started with going from Hi-Low pitching strategies which most coaches don't even know what that means, to just rock and fire, goon-ism.

After spending countless hours and dollars having your kid trained you will find it all goes out the window with a coach that calls all the pitch locations and type of pitch. Pitchers are not allowed to use their own knowledge, brains and intuitive senses to get batters out. Pitchers have been reduced to 90+ mph pitching machines. Don't think, don't figure anything out for yourself just rock and fire. And you wonder why pitching is no longer like those we use to watch like Sandy and Drysdale. Coaches have killed the art of pitching.

If I were you I would take your son away from this goon and stay with the pro who has taught your son proper mechanics. As your son gets bigger and stronger the mechanics will serve him well as he gets into hitting with the wooden bats.

More great kids are ruined at the high school level then anywhere else in baseball development.
JMO

I've seen a right handed kid hit a lead-off homerun dead center, next at bat a triple off the right field gap fence, and then a double off the left field gap fence. Each time he went back to the dugout the HS coach make a criticism of the kid's swing. The kid's private batting coach has worked with pros that are currently in the majors. The private batting coach can not believe what the HS coach tells the batter.

Fellas - You've seen exactly what I'm seeing now. Obviously there are some very good HS coaches out there. The problem as I see it is - these days is a LOT of kids are going to academies learning how to do things the right way(or so we hope). Parents are paying big bucks for these instructions. So now the kid goes to a JV/varsity coach who's full of himself (or just flat wrong) and tells the kid to do it this way or that way. The kid gets confused, comes home and tells mom and dad about it. What does mom and dad do? That's the situation I was put in and exactly why I asked this. Seems the concensus is to be quiet and do as the coach says. I have to agree with that because there really is no other choice besides changing schools and that's not going to happen. You can voice your concerns(and my son did) but that likely will get you nowhere except the doghouse. It's a very difficult situation and I personally think it happens quite often.

dpayton

Nothing against academies , my stepson is a pitching instructor at one and he is a darn good instructor, but what makes their instructors more right than a HS or Travel Team coach--just because you give them a check at the academy every week does not necessarily make them better

I truly like your final line " I personally think it happens quite often" AHA --you think it does---but does it actually happen???

I do believe this can be a problem. It can help if coaches and instructors communicate.

Several years ago I had a friend bring his son in. He wanted me to watch his son pitch and give him a tip or two. The kid was playing for the top youth travel team in our area.

After watching him I noticed a few things he needed to correct. Main thing he was opening up way too early and way too much. This was causing him to throw with less velocity, less accuracy and most importantly he was not using his body to help his arm. So I worked with him for a couple weeks and the improvement was very noticable.

Then one day, a guy walks in and wants to talk to me. He was the "pitching" coach for this organization. He was mad because I was teaching things differently than he did. I asked him about his opinions and quickly realized that he didn't know the first thing about pitching. He said he had always done things that way. I told him that he was always doing those things wrong. He took that as an insult and left. I later found out he was a dad of another player on the team.

Fast forward a couple years... I walked out into our building and saw this guy there working with one of his pitchers. He was basically teaching the kid exactly what he argued about years before. I did talk to him and he asked if he could pick my mind on pitching. He also asked me if I would work with his son who was in high school by this time.

BTW, the original pitcher, my friends son, I continued to work with. He ended up being the top pitcher in that organization. He also had a great high school and college career.

I've never understood why private instructors and coaches would disagree that much. That should only happen when one of them doesn't know what they're doing. I think it's important that people understand their limitations and real knowledge. I know when I talk to guys like Rick Peterson it's not the time to disagree... It's time to listen and learn!

After all this... I've always told kids... You must have the approach that your coach is always right! Sometimes this can be very difficult. It's just that the other way can get in your way. It's just another of the many adjustments a player needs to be able to deal with. In this case (instructor vs. coach) I recommend asking your instructor to talk to your coach. If an instructor is being paid by you, he should be willing to help you with this potential problem. When the coach and instructor communicate, the player benefits.

TRhit - At face value - there isn't a difference. It becomes an issue after watching and listening to what the coach does and says.

I honestly do believe this situation happens quite often. Academy says one thing, HS coach says another. Everyone has different ideas on how to do things and the kids gets caught in the middle.

PG - I think it's a pride issue. No one wants to be told he/she has been doing it wrong for 10 years! For me - I like to listen to what everyone says. I certainly don't know everything and would hate to think I did. What I don't like is a unyielding, opinionated guy that preaches "it's my way or the highway." BUT, that's going to happen and you as the player(like you mentioned) has to listen and do as the coaches say.

I my situation - the instructor is an hour away. Even if I were to ask him to come here, the coach would ahve no part in it - he's steadfast in his beliefs.