Bad player behavior starting in high school?

The '18 and under teams in the Northern California [SF Bay Area] during the Summer were coached by former College Coach, Pro Players and the teams during the 1980's each team included 2-3 future MLB players. All games were attended by 3-4 pro scouts and the Fall Scout teams were produced from this League.

The respect for the game and the desire to learn the "art of competing" was #1. If there was "bad behavior"by a player, the Coaches handled it internally or with the "Bob Gibson" rule.

Watch a pro scout when he will use his "pencil" to "cross off" a prospect because of his "behavior".

Bob

I saw this on Twitter this morning. Posting here as I believe it accurately sums up why current behavior is cause for concern.

As I have said on here many times, I'm not a fan of the stuff that is happening in today's world.  But the problem is we don't want to see it in our kids and our teams.  We want to justify it away and say but they did it because rather than say sin (bad behavior) is sin (bad behavior).   We live in a world where it is not okay if you do it but it is okay if me or mine do it.  We want to justify our behavior within society rather than the standard.   Bad behavior is bad behavior whether me or mine do it or you or yours do it.

I'm so tired of people saying but "they are a good kid."   No.  Good kids don't do some of the things that are happening today.  I read it on here and hear it all the time.  Locally, we had a kid arrested for selling drugs and trying to kill another kid and a lady at church said but he's a good kid.  I said no he's not a good kid.  Good kids don't do drugs or sell drugs or shoot people.  Until we get back to what is acceptable behavior in life we will not get to what is acceptable behavior in sports.

If a kid is supremely talented, he'll continue to advance regardless of attitude, behavior, demeanor, etc.

Most kids aren't supremely talented. As Bob points out, they'll get lines through their names.

@RJM posted:

Last night I watched three innings of 14u game on PG TV. One of the teams was a national program you would all recognize the name.

First, is it necessary to fly 14u players in from all over the country every weekend to win a 14u tournament? Second, whenever they got a hit it was a one man party with dancing at the base. I was surprised the kid who hit the homer didn’t do handstands circling the bases. If this is how elite 14u travel players are allowed to act this is the future of baseball. I don’t care what’s cool now. I wouldn’t allow my players to act like fools every time they get a hit.

I played high school and college ball in the 70’s. There was a lot of chirping. Any short player was bound to be asked if he was the last one to know it’s raining. The only rules were an opposing team couldn’t yell out a players name. But you could yell, “Hey! Second base …” There was an opposing pitcher in high school our bench players could pick the inning they wanted to get in his head and make him lose his mind.

I combined two separate posts from @RJM above

Not to pick on him, but to show that "bad behavior"  is completely subjective. He's annoyed by today's celebrations but then tells us verbally abusing opponents was common place 50 years ago.

I have almost the exact opposite view. I don't care if a team wants to have a parade after every hit. But in my mind, "chirping" at the opponent is as weak as it gets. Beat me on the field, not with your mouth.

My point is we will never stop "bad behavior" because people will never agree on it's definition.

My golden rule to my son..." Just don't be an A-hole. " That goes for life and baseball.

Ruh-Roh Raggy!

@DaddyBaller posted:

I combined two separate posts from @RJM above

Not to pick it on him, but to show that "bad behavior"  is completely subjective. He's annoyed by today's celebrations but then tells us verbally abusing opponents was common place 50 years ago.

I have almost the exact opposite view. I don't care if a team wants to have a parade after every hit. But in my mind, "chirping" at the opponent is as weak as it gets. Beat me on the field, not with your mouth.

My point is we will never stop "bad behavior" because people will never agree on it's definition.

My golden rule to my son..." Just don't be an A-hole. " That goes for life and baseball.

The chirping was usually funny stuff that distracted opposing players. Of course, the player with big ears probably didn’t think it being mentioned was funny. It’s the same stuff that goes on today between frat guys in the stands and opposing players. In college ball if a D1 player has rabbit ears and thin skin he’s not going to last very long.

One year the Big 10 tournament was played in Omaha there were 25,000 Nebraska fans in the stands. My son said the harassment was constant, entertaining and amusing. He had to focus to not be distracted. He gave it back to them during warm up throws. He said some of the insults tossed at him were so funny he wished he could have written them down.

@DaddyBaller posted:

I combined two separate posts from @RJM above

Not to pick on him, but to show that "bad behavior"  is completely subjective. He's annoyed by today's celebrations but then tells us verbally abusing opponents was common place 50 years ago.

I have almost the exact opposite view. I don't care if a team wants to have a parade after every hit. But in my mind, "chirping" at the opponent is as weak as it gets. Beat me on the field, not with your mouth.

My point is we will never stop "bad behavior" because people will never agree on it's definition.

My golden rule to my son..." Just don't be an A-hole. " That goes for life and baseball.

Whenever I see a post like this my reaction is always the same. It’s, “well obviously this guy never played at a high level - if he ever played at all.” Guys that have played understand where the line is that shouldn’t be crossed. Guys that didn’t play don’t- and never will.

Interesting take @adbono....

I say that hard part of controlling "bad behavior" is that people disagree on the definition.

You tell me I never played high level ball. You win...I guess?

What I do know is every night I see highlights of guys playing at the highest level that probably have a different opinion on the subject then you.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's happening.

Until MLB institutes a discipline committee of guys who played college ball in the 70's and 80's it's not going away.

https://youtu.be/u4cj--Klqu4

A discipline committee? OMG! Absolutely not necessary. The game can police itself. All there has to be is consequences for the behavior and for people to stop supporting it. Disrespectful behavior is being promoted in all walks of life - not just in sports. And it’s not by accident. Take a look at how kids are allowed to behave in school. Look at the civil divide that is promoted on a daily basis while msm says everything but the truth. It’s all part of the process of tearing down western civilization. It’s a symptom of a much, much bigger problem. That’s why it’s important to take a stand against behavior that isn’t good for our society. People that understand are speaking up. Those that don’t see issues like this as trivial. But they aren’t.

@DaddyBaller

What the heck does MLB have to do with bad behavior in HS?

What's considered bad behavior, if greeting your teammate at home plate after HR is bad behavior what's your opinion of what happens at hockey games?

Edit...nothing better  to celebrate than a walkoff win, no matter what level.

JMO

@TPM posted:

@DaddyBaller

What the heck does MLB have to do with bad behavior in HS?

What's considered bad behavior

I will let @adbono answer your first question with his first post in this thread

"Those kids see HS, college, & MLB players showboating, taunting, & disrespecting opponents. Idiot announcers and fans call this “celebrating” so the kids think it’s cool so they emulate the behavior."

And he is 100% correct. An 8 year old doesn't bat flip and pimp a home run without seeing it somewhere first. This all starts from the top down.

Your second question is the more important one and the only one that really matters..."What is considered bad behavior?"

My answer is " I have no idea! ".... All I can say with certainty is that different people will give you different answers all over the spectrum.

While someone like Ronald Acuna Jr. might be "crossing lines" that some old school baseball dudes don't like, the Atlanta Braves seem to be okay with it. And little kids / teens eat it up.

So I admire the old heads on this board for "taking a stand". Custer took one too.

But reality is they are battling a much younger army that's probably going to win the war of attrition.

I see it this way. Sports fall into the entertainment category. I did not see anything wrong in the video. It was entertaining.

ML players seem to take care of those that break the unwritten rules. I saw a video of a pitcher intentionally hit a batter for his behavior. The pitcher was Joe Kelly, who is great at that stuff. Twitter (now X) world went nuts. The batter needed a little attitude adjustment I am assuming.

NCAA came down with new rules this season. You can flip your bat, not in front of the opposing team. You can celebrate HRs, in your dugout. Pitcher's can fist pump, not in front of the opposing team. I really enjoyed this year. Some teams, especially instate are big time rivalries. Stuff happens. It's the coaches responsibility to send their team a message before the series.

I am not familiar with HS or travel ball antics. If it's happening, that's on the coach.

I also agree with AL.

JMO

@DaddyBaller

Where are you in Florida?

Question asked at an umpire clinic one day - "How do you judge what malicious contact is"?   The answer "You will know when you see it.".... Same rule applies for some of these behavior questions.  FWIW: I agree with adbono about the pervasiveness in our society these days and the issue is complex. There isn't a simple answer. The game can police itself, but sometimes someone has to be the adult as painful as it is and apply their owner personal definition to where the line in the sand is.

Most of the bad player behavior is caused by adults.  The coaches and parents are the ones telling kids to do such and such at younger ages. "Next time just run them over."  "Put one in his earhole."  "Don't take that."  And on and on.  I hear it every time I go to a youth or HS game.

I have been following this topic for some time and IMO it starts way before HS.  I do a lot of youth league umping.  Today teams come with soundsystems, walk up music for each player, and name announcements for each at bat that sound like they got a professional to do it.  It does start with the parents.   One example comes to mind is at an 8yo game - pop up to the infield - parents yelling "drop it".  Not to mention the parents chirping about every ball and strike.  Little behavior traits start young then are allowed to grow.  By the time they get to HS these behaviors have been rooted iin the player for years.  Again, just my 2 cents, the solution has to start at the youth level and has to be istilled by both coaches and parents.

In reference to the last post it bothered me the first time I saw my 9u son in his travel uniform, marching bag and matching jacket. He looked like a mini major leaguer. I believe it created expectations for parents of the players and umpires.

When I formed an elite 13u to 16u team I was pleased the kids preferred to play in their tees than expensive tops. They didn’t care their names weren’t on the tees. They enjoyed showing up like dirtbags, giving the other team a false sense of confidence and kicking their rears.

@NewUmpire posted:

I have been following this topic for some time and IMO it starts way before HS.  I do a lot of youth league umping.  Today teams come with soundsystems, walk up music for each player, and name announcements for each at bat that sound like they got a professional to do it.  It does start with the parents.   One example comes to mind is at an 8yo game - pop up to the infield - parents yelling "drop it".  Not to mention the parents chirping about every ball and strike.  Little behavior traits start young then are allowed to grow.  By the time they get to HS these behaviors have been rooted iin the player for years.  Again, just my 2 cents, the solution has to start at the youth level and has to be istilled by both coaches and parents.

Okay. going to rant. sorry.

Very true,  and I hate showing up at a game and see the team breaking out loud speakers... I just know that team will be obnoxious.... but let's admit something... The umpiring in youth sports through high school is just bad.  I mean really bad.  Tag plays, they should just flip a coin, they'd be right more often.

  The worst is when you hear umpires telling the two coaches he's going to have a big strike zone because he wants to keep the game moving,,, then can't decide if the same pitch this time is a strike again or a ball.  Is it fair to any kid to be down 0-2 on pitches in the other batters box, just so a game moves faster?   Play by the established strike zone in the rules, then at least nobody who complains has a foot to stand on when it's called right.

Here is a hint to parents... If your kid can't throw strikes, he's probably not a pitcher, and that starts at a young age.  There are pitchers that are born and others that are made, but the latter needs to work on it and not when it's a game so that everyone else has to suffer through walk after walk after walk, while he's figuring it out... Good pitchers are pitchers first and position players second, not the other way around.  But Umpires should not enable this problem by calling bad pitches strikes.

I will say I hear parents complaining about pitches when they are sitting somewhere they could never tell whether the ball crossed the plate or not, and I wish they'd just shut up.  Most times those parents that complain, are right about 50% of the time, but when you complain every pitch you'll be right half the time.   I get more disturbed based on the way they complain.  It is the rare day that an umpire calls a good game, and I usually make it a point to say "nice game" and nothing more to them when they do.

I sit behind the plate since my kid is a catcher and we both agree there is no rhyme or reason why pitches are called what they are more than 50% of the time.  but I don't say anything, a groan may escape once in a while, but not often.  There are games my son will just set up on the line of the opposite batters box all day and when his pitchers can hit that, it's usually a shutout.  He never complains, 1 it's not in his nature and 2. he doesn't want to sabotage his pitchers.

HSDad22 - seems to be written by someone who's never put on the gear and has an axe to grind with umpires...   At least catcher's get a break every 1/2 inning ;-). Consistency is hard, but not impossible. Just like in every profession, not everyone is professional about it. Once you call one on that outside part of the plate or in the other batter's box, you need to be committed to it. If the P can hit it, the C consistently sets up there, and you call it, then well the other team better make adjustments. If they don't, you have spelled out what happens.

Slightly agree w/ your point about can't throw strikes... But what would you really do if you put yourself in those shoes? Would you continue to call a strict and tight zone and not succumb to either jeers or having a heart for the poor kid? Please, I want a video of you being an umpire like that. But to keep with the theme of this - why should bad behavior by players / parents / coaches to jeer be accepted?  Ever been a pitcher?  Some kids want to be a pitcher because then they're part of every play rather than being bored to tears by ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, etc. Then they realize how hard it is and some coach wants to send a message so he/she keeps that kid out there. Some parent is pissed because the umpire isn't calling strikes and because the coach won't rescue their child. Try to logically work through stuff before sitting on some high and mighty throne projecting what "should" be done.

As for saying "nice game" only when you agree with an umpire's decisions all day and nothing in other cases, that just seems disingenuous. BTW: I've called in NH (that's your location according to your profile) and still know quite a few umpires up there and am well aware of variations in talent between Div 1 thru 4 (formerly L, I, M, S). I'm sure I could find you an association looking for apprentices - may I suggest starting at https://www.nhbua.org/apprentice.php - I did that program back in 2009-ish while my sons played. Of course that was after 8+ years working for a group that called many games in the greater Manchester area.

I thought I’d chime in on this one after all…

I think most need to lighten up a bit. To me it’s a bit like free speech, I may not like what you’re saying, but I need to accept and respect your rights (within the law) else I void my own.

Travel ball and all the silly things us parents bring to the table, how is this not one of everyone’s favorite things? The parents are having fun, from what I’ve seen the kids are having fun and I know I’m having fun enjoying the show. From plastic water bottles full of rocks for impromptu noise makers, amazing team banners, custom uniforms and bat bags, custom sound systems or wagon mounted coolers – the possibilities are endless, and how I miss the show.

I’m an ultra-conservative sports parent, that means I don’t/didn’t wear team gear or caps, no kid related decals/signs on my vehicles or lawns, no smack talk, nor have I ever had an altercation with another parent. I have philosophical reasons for this and it’s right for me, but that doesn’t mean having over the top fun isn’t right for others. Baseball is meant to be fun! I often text my kid before he plays “Have fun today!” and he’s in the MLB – succeeding and having fun are his goals. I think he even enjoyed being on field for yesterday’s bench clearing debacle…

As for attitude and behavior on the field, that’s touchy one. I don’t see attitude, effort, desire, and results as always being linked. We don’t turn SportsCenter on to watch low effort success, and how you package what you do will impact your opportunities, but again everyone is different. My son shows very little emotion when he plays, but he’s fiercely competitive, you need to know him well to understand how much he cares.

I would just say, don’t get wrapped up in what others do as long as it’s within the rules. Part of their goal is to get under your skin, and if they do, they’ve won. I don’t like to lose…

Today in a MLB game I saw a player slam his helmet and bat after striking out.  We benched my son at age 10 for doing that.

We are about to enter the phase of summer that has become the bane of my existence - the ESPN coverage of the LLWS. If you want a preview of the kind of behavior that is currently being demonstrated just tune into one of the regional tournaments. It’s bad. I mean really bad. Young baseball players should not be allowed to act like this. Common sense will tell you that children that act like this turn into adults that act like this. Which isn’t good for anyone except those that profit from our unhinged legal system. A question has been asked in this thread about how to define unacceptable behavior. I don’t think it’s all that difficult. Celebrating to a reasonable extent is acceptable. Blatantly disrespectful behavior is not acceptable. There is some gray area in between. But if you have been around baseball for any length of time it’s not hard to separate celebration from disrespect. What really overcooks my grits is to hear the clown announcers at ESPN promote & celebrate the bad behavior of children on a baseball field. Of course they are ordered to do so by the ESPN/Disney executives that employ them. But that doesn’t make it okay. Disney has long been known to prey on children. This is preying on them in a different way. Kind of like how their theme parks are portrayed as wholesome family fun when they are actually just the opposite. This is just one little part of an overwhelming attempt to destroy family values that have existed for generations.

Last night Kevin Youkilis, former Red Sox player and current color man was discussing travel ball behavior, the players and parents. The basis of his discussion was if you wonder where the behavior you see on the MLB field comes from look at travel ball. His kids are young. His niece has been through travel and now stars at UCLA. He said blames the parents and coaches for allowing it, not the players.

When my son was eleven his first home run ever was a walk off in a LL all star game. As he approached home he broke into his best Harry Kalas (Phillies announcer at the time) imitation. It was pure innocent excitement. The opposing coach was pissed. Today, no one would notice.

@adbono posted:

We are about to enter the phase of summer that has become the bane of my existence - the ESPN coverage of the LLWS. If you want a preview of the kind of behavior that is currently being demonstrated just tune into one of the regional tournaments. It’s bad. I mean really bad. Young baseball players should not be allowed to act like this. Common sense will tell you that children that act like this turn into adults that act like this. Which isn’t good for anyone except those that profit from our unhinged legal system. A question has been asked in this thread about how to define unacceptable behavior. I don’t think it’s all that difficult. Celebrating to a reasonable extent is acceptable. Blatantly disrespectful behavior is not acceptable. There is some gray area in between. But if you have been around baseball for any length of time it’s not hard to separate celebration from disrespect. What really overcooks my grits is to hear the clown announcers at ESPN promote & celebrate the bad behavior of children on a baseball field. Of course they are ordered to do so by the ESPN/Disney executives that employ them. But that doesn’t make it okay. Disney has long been known to prey on children. This is preying on them in a different way. Kind of like how their theme parks are portrayed as wholesome family fun when they are actually just the opposite. This is just one little part of an overwhelming attempt to destroy family values that have existed for generations.

I watched some of the regional tournaments the last 2 days.  Nothing stood out to me in terms of bad behavior.  In fact, the thought that comes to mind is that the reactions of the kids and coaches in LLWS on TV must be very contrived to suppress their natural reactions bec they are so nice compared to what I see in travel ball (esp how the coaches talk to the kids).  Now you got me wondering if I'm part of the problem...

The other thought that came to mind yesterday as I watch OK melt down against LA is that these games should not be on TV for the world to witness a kid's worst sporting moment.  I don't know if these painful memory will last a lot longer and maybe even leave a scar bec it was televised worldwide (or at least nationwide).

@atlnon posted:

I watched some of the regional tournaments the last 2 days.  Nothing stood out to me in terms of bad behavior.  In fact, the thought that comes to mind is that the reactions of the kids and coaches in LLWS on TV must be very contrived to suppress their natural reactions bec they are so nice compared to what I see in travel ball (esp how the coaches talk to the kids).  Now you got me wondering if I'm part of the problem...

The other thought that came to mind yesterday as I watch OK melt down against LA is that these games should not be on TV for the world to witness a kid's worst sporting moment.  I don't know if these painful memory will last a lot longer and maybe even leave a scar bec it was televised worldwide (or at least nationwide).

Well, if I got you thinking about the bigger picture I call that a W. I agree with your point about these games being promoted as can’t miss TV. Glamorizing minimal athletic performances by 12 year olds is not a good thing. For every hero there are multiple goats. Even the success is at times too much. Google the story of Cody Webster.

IMO, what happened to Cody is just a reminder about how adults can screw up kids.

My motto was game over, whether it was a good one or not. It was take what you learned about today and see if you can even make it better. I don't remember ever having to punish son for any bad behavior at the field.  He had good men as coaches that reminded them of the consequences. Dad stopped coaching early on.

I think sometimes we mistake bad behavior for what is  due to the competitive and passionate nature of those that play this game.  The struggle can be very real and everyone is wired differently.

@TPM posted:

IMO, what happened to Cody is just a reminder about how adults can screw up kids.

My motto was game over, whether it was a good one or not. It was take what you learned about today and see if you can even make it better. I don't remember ever having to punish son for any bad behavior at the field.  He had good men as coaches that reminded them of the consequences. Dad stopped coaching early on.

I think sometimes we mistake bad behavior for what is  due to the competitive and passionate nature of those that play this game.  The struggle can be very real and everyone is wired differently.

This ^^^^

@adbono posted:

Well, if I got you thinking about the bigger picture I call that a W. I agree with your point about these games being promoted as can’t miss TV. Glamorizing minimal athletic performances by 12 year olds is not a good thing. For every hero there are multiple goats. Even the success is at times too much. Google the story of Cody Webster.

Ok, I just saw some video snippets on social media of what the kids from OK were doing earlier in the game (like sitting down on the base after a good hit). I take back what I said yesterday.  

@atlnon posted:

Ok, I just saw some video snippets on social media of what the kids from OK were doing earlier in the game (like sitting down on the base after a good hit). I take back what I said yesterday.  

Come on. This is not professional baseball. These are kids having fun or supposed to be having fun. If this is traditionally what's done, it's not disrespectful, unless told otherwise.

JMO

@TPM posted:

Come on. This is not professional baseball. These are kids having fun or supposed to be having fun. If this is traditionally what's done, it's not disrespectful, unless told otherwise.

JMO

Sitting down on second base pretending to meditate after a good hit is not something I've ever seen before, even from the craziest most obnoxious travel ball teams.  I'll go watch the replay of the game sometime this weekend to make sure I see the full context and that I am not missing anything.

Saw this in yesterday's game and thought of this thread.  I have to admit that this did not sit well with me and made me root for Curacao (and happy that Curacao won with a walk off HR).  Does this mean that I am <gasp!!!> a boomer?!?

https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/st...693887112446378?s=20

And that is why I hate watching LLWS.  This is an ejection at any level but ESPN has bought the rights to tell the umpires how to umpire for entertainment value.  What happens when the runner retaliates?  Who gets ejected?