On the 2023 college season thread, an ongoing discussion about taunting, suspensions, whose fault is it, at the college level.
Is this beginning in high school? Should there be more effort on the part of high school coaches to rein it in, before the players even get to college?
Or what about summer travel ball? I don't remember much emotion at all there.
I saw examples in high school, although not many. Do others think there is more of that now? Just curious.
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It was really bad in HS this year. Seems like more of the younger kids. Lots of kids looking foolish staring down a pitcher. Especially after a strike out, lol. I saw several kids get warnings this year and a few games had to be stopped for the umps to tell coaches to get control of their teams.
AP,
I coached and managed a youth travel team all the way to 14 years old. A lot of what I witnessed started before 14 years old. Some travel coaches did something about it, and others turned a blind eye to it. People notice this stuff, and take mental notes. We had a number of travel teams in our area (Virginia is a hot bed for baseball), and I watched these kids grow up and play in high school. Most of them grew out of the bad behavior due to their parents and their high school coaches. There were a few that did not, and in every case it was a parent that was enabling and defending the son's behavior.
My 3 sons went to 2 different high schools. My oldest and middle son attended a high school that had a difficult time hiring and keeping a head baseball coach. They did the best they could do under the circumstances. But the bottom line is the players believed they had leverage over the coach as they were not very deep nor did the coach have a lot of experience dealing with it. Their starting nine was very competitive but beyond that there was typically not a lot of experience to back them up. So, there was a lot of acting out and it wasn't pretty. Some parents stepped in and some parents did nothing for whatever reason. Contrast that with my youngest son, who went to our neighborhood high school and had talent coming out its ears every year. The Coach was top shelf and experienced. He didn't take any sh*t from anyone including parents. He had no problem taking anyone out of the lineup or kicking them off the team. My oldest son played on a very elite travel team from 15-17U. There were a couple players on that team that liked to party pretty much all the time (if you catch my drift). Both of these guys had significant talent, and probably could have played anywhere including D1 P5s...they certainly got many looks by D1 P5s. I believe their behavior, attitude and work ethic finally caught up with them. They had a reputation for being disrespectful on the field. Despite all of this, a college team took a chance on them. However, they were gone by 2nd semester freshman year due to bad grades and ganja.
Only my oldest son played college baseball. I didn't see anything blatantly disrespectful in my 4 years watching him or the teams he played. He did tell me there was a lot of "jawing" on the field, but it was generally stuff that made him laugh. I can't speak to summer college baseball as my son did not play there. He worked engineering internships during the summer.
So, my observations are that is that it starts young in youth rec ball or travel ball. It either goes checked or unchecked in youth baseball then high school then travel baseball. If it still goes unchecked then it is in the hands of the college coach. Let's face it....putting it in the hands of the college coach is the wrong place. If that college coach is getting productivity out of that player, he is willing to take some on some crap and further enable the behavior.
Just my experience......
On Facebook I now see preteen travel kids flipping bats and doing dances. If it’s getting posted it’s because the parents think it’s cute.
When my travel players (13u to 16u) mouthed off I got on them. A second offense got them on the bench. A couple of times the mouthing off was deserved. I had to bite back laughing while trying to scold them.
One time it was my son that needed the scolding. After everyone was gone I told him what he said and who he said it to was one of the funniest insults I ever heard. What made it funnier was my son’s idea of getting fired up was saying “let’s get some runs.”
It’s now starting in Little League. Those kids see HS, college, & MLB players showboating, taunting, & disrespecting opponents. Idiot announcers and fans call this “celebrating” so the kids think it’s cool so they emulate the behavior. The entire phenomenon is disgusting to me and IMO the problem starts at home. Too many parents are accepting of disrespect. I know it’s a dicey thing to correct kids’ behavior that aren’t your own, but I think there is nothing wrong with doing that if the situation calls for it.
And I agree with @TerribleBPthrower, it was terrible in HS baseball this year in Texas.
Adbono;
The Coaches [COLLEGE, HS, Summer] have "NO respect" for the game. They truly do not understand. One time our Summer team in Northern California encountered a Coach and his team in the 1st base dugout "chipping" at our players.
During infield practice I instructed our 1st baseman on throws in the range of the dugout to drop his glove and "miss" the ball. The message was given and NO more "chipping". "Chin music" was not needed.
Bob
@Consultant posted:Adbono;
The Coaches [COLLEGE, HS, Summer] have "NO respect" for the game. They truly do not understand. One time our Summer team in Northern California encountered a Coach and his team in the 1st base dugout "chipping" at our players.
During infield practice I instructed our 1st baseman on throws in the range of the dugout to drop his glove and "miss" the ball. The message was given and NO more "chipping". "Chin music" was not needed.
Bob
Yes, self policing the game is a beautiful thing and we need to get back to that. Years ago I was coaching in a travel ball tournament in Dallas (14U - I think) and was watching our scheduled starting pitcher warm up in the bullpen. But it was an open bullpen setup that wasn’t very private. The other team had a brash & mouthy young coach and he brought his entire team over to our bullpen and they formed a half circle about 10’ behind our catcher attempting to watch my pitcher warm up. I told my LHP to ignore the target and throw a fastball right into the middle of the other team. He was too nice of a kid and he wouldn’t do it. So I sent him to the bench and got another pitcher. His first warmup pitch scattered the other team and they went running. Problem solved.
You would never see this from the teams I coached/coach. I won't tolerate it. In fact, in my parent meeting that the players had to attend with their parents, I set the tone early on including what was acceptable from parents. Many years ago, I posted here that I had to remove a couple of parents over the years and one turned really nasty. Again, I would not tolerate it. We were in the sectional championship game and my starting pitcher yelled at the umpire. I called time out, had another pitcher run to the bullpen and told the pitcher he would be done when the other pitcher was ready. He was a great kid but the pressure of the moment got to him. IMO, emotions like that can be used against a player or team. I didn't allow myself to do any stupid stuff. Believe me, over the years I've wanted to. There are more important things than wins and a certain standard has to be maintained. I wanted to build a program that everyone in my state knew. We were fortunate to get that done BUT it was because the players bought in. Finally, we were playing a school over twice our size but a school we needed to play since they were always good. One of their bad actors made an out at 1st and dropped his pants showing his butt to everyone. The HC didn't discipline him. That was the last time we played that school. As with most very good teams/programs, my players were competitors and when people did things like that, they wanted to turn the heat up. Instead, we played ball.
@CoachB25, isn’t it amazing how all old school players/coaches think alike. We know what’s right and what is wrong. And in spite of the current idiotic conditions that try to tell us differently we maintain the course because we know better.
I benched many a kid in travel ball who even began to act like that. A few times kids got benched just from mouthing off in practice. I had no tolerance for any of that.
I never benched a kid for playing poorly or making mistakes in any one game or weekend. What got them benched was a poor attitude or lack of effort/lack of hustle.
The message got across. Some kids quit the team. Other kids joined. At 15U I knew they needed better coaching in terms of the fundamentals so I stopped coaching but kept track of them. Many of them are playing in college now.
This occurred in Massachusetts a few years ago at a powerhouse program …
A kid whiffed. He didn’t like the call. He started giving the umpire an earful. Rather than tossing the kid the umpire told the coach to come get his player.
The kid wouldn't leave the plate. The coach grabbed him by the back of his jersey by the neck and pulled him back to the dugout.
One of the player’s parents called the police and had the coach arrested for assault. The coach was suspended for the season by the school and had to go through anger management and confrontation resolution training.
What should have occurred is the parents being shunned by the other parents. Someone on this board (don’t know if they still post) was at the game. They said the kid was 100% wrong.
I’ve been around parents of this school at football games. Some of them act very arrogant and privileged. I’ve sat near them at Xavarian-Everest football games. Everett ran the Patriots (Brady) offense and were fun to watch. Everett is very blue collar with a lot of black kids on the team. They were always in the hunt if not winning the large classification championship. They send players to P5’s. I heard a lot of (to be polite) condescending comments directed at Everett by Xavarian parents. Xavarian is an expensive private Catholic in a wealthy area.
Coach charged after physical altercation with athlete
https://www.wcvb.com/article/x...ith-athlete/27113718
Baseball coach reinstated
@adbono posted:Yes, self policing the game is a beautiful thing and we need to get back to that. Years ago I was coaching in a travel ball tournament in Dallas (14U - I think) and was watching our scheduled starting pitcher warm up in the bullpen. But it was an open bullpen setup that wasn’t very private. The other team had a brash & mouthy young coach and he brought his entire team over to our bullpen and they formed a half circle about 10’ behind our catcher attempting to watch my pitcher warm up. I told my LHP to ignore the target and throw a fastball right into the middle of the other team. He was too nice of a kid and he wouldn’t do it. So I sent him to the bench and got another pitcher. His first warmup pitch scattered the other team and they went running. Problem solved.
This happened to my son last summer at a showcase in the northeast/mid-Atlantic. I didn’t realize when signing up the showcase was being run by an academy. It was still run well and there were a ton of college coaches in the region in attendance. They put their “scout team” together in the same group/rotation and apparently their turn to hit was against my son. As soon as he started warming up in the pen the team sprinted over to lean against the fence and watch him warm up. It was clearly orchestrated and one of the dumbest things I’ve seen in years. He ended up striking out 8 of the 9 batters he faced. The parents of those kids were pissed the academy would schedule their kids to hit against this kid, lol. Probably the best part was the WWBA in Atlanta was a few weeks away and they asked me if my son would want to pitch for them.
The head of the academy ended up letting those kids get an extra AB against the next pitcher.
Only saw bad behavior from 1 team during the high school season. Ump let it last about 2 innings and the dugout got a warning (Cheer on your team, but there will be no comments directed at the other team). However, there were a lot of teams with really bad fans. If I was a player and those were my fans I would be embarrassed.
Travel ball this season, there has not been much of anything. If a comment goes out towards another team the Umps have jumped on it quickly and it is nipped in the bud.
I watched a kid we know yell the f word on the mound after an error. The Brown coach had been there to see him and he promptly picked up his bag and left.
@TxballDad posted:Only saw bad behavior from 1 team during the high school season. Ump let it last about 2 innings and the dugout got a warning (Cheer on your team, but there will be no comments directed at the other team). However, there were a lot of teams with really bad fans. If I was a player and those were my fans I would be embarrassed.
Travel ball this season, there has not been much of anything. If a comment goes out towards another team the Umps have jumped on it quickly and it is nipped in the bud.
Travel ball always seems to be 100x more chill than high school ball. That being said, we had a team in a local tournament 2 weeks ago who were very interesting. One kid got tossed for bulldogging our catcher. Their asst coach came out to yell at the catcher after. Their parents were acting like it was game 7 of the WS in the first inning of a random pool game. The head coach spent most of the game apologizing to our coach when he was supposed to be coaching 3rd saying, "That's not who we are or how we coach." lol
@adbono posted:@CoachB25, isn’t it amazing how all old school players/coaches think alike. We know what’s right and what is wrong. And in spite of the current idiotic conditions that try to tell us differently we maintain the course because we know better.
Don't you think that players really want discipline? IMO, the vast majority want to win and win as a team. Therefore, they have to have rules/standards that help them achieve their goals. The truth is, I rarely had to discipline my teams. The players did that for me. If you asked them, they would use one word, "tradition."
@CoachB25 posted:Don't you think that players really want discipline? IMO, the vast majority want to win and win as a team. Therefore, they have to have rules/standards that help them achieve their goals. The truth is, I rarely had to discipline my teams. The players did that for me. If you asked them, they would use one word, "tradition."
Nice post. It's the coaches responsibility to make sure that players discipline themselves through team leadership.
I chalk a lot of it up to far to many non-baseball guys coaching baseball, too many schools doubling up football and hockey coaches to coach the baseball team rather than finding real baseball guys. They try and bring the tough guy concept of firing their team up through verbal abuse of the other team and players to "get them off their game", etc. OR chirping to also fire themselves up by being emotionally aggressive, yet baseball is not a game played like football or hockey and this strategy often backfires, which then leads to the behavior of yelling at umps, throwing equipment etc. when things go bad for that player, because they can't handle the emotional swings and failure inherent in baseball. Baseball requires positive energy, CONFIDENCE and an ability to put a mistake behind you and stay even keeled. Chirping and posturing is negative energy that tries to artificially create confidence by putting others down, it doesn't really create real confidence in oneself that is so crucial to the game. It simply leads to more and more of it and additional behavioral issues on the field.
If the coaches won't stop it, it will only get worse.
@CoachB25 posted:Don't you think that players really want discipline? IMO, the vast majority want to win and win as a team. Therefore, they have to have rules/standards that help them achieve their goals. The truth is, I rarely had to discipline my teams. The players did that for me. If you asked them, they would use one word, "tradition."
I think there has to be a modicum of discipline in any team sport. And it currently seems to be lacking in almost all teams in any sport you choose. Any great team that I have ever been associated with as a player, coach, or fan had a number if things in common and a big one was leadership from within the ranks of the players. Another common thread was team over individual. The reverse is also true. Any team that didn’t have those qualities exhibited by the players underachieved. No matter how talented. What I believe is that we have a societal problem that has bled into baseball. Too many kids think that they don’t have to accept discipline - from anyone. And too many kids refuse to think of anything ahead of themselves. Kids play selfish. You will hear coaches complaining about that all the time if you are listening. But to answer your question, I believe the smart kids (that really get it) want discipline because they understand how important it is to team success. But I’m afraid those kinds of kids are a minority that is shrinking by the day.
