On the 2023 college season thread, an ongoing discussion about taunting, suspensions, whose fault is it, at the college level.
Is this beginning in high school? Should there be more effort on the part of high school coaches to rein it in, before the players even get to college?
Or what about summer travel ball? I don't remember much emotion at all there.
I saw examples in high school, although not many. Do others think there is more of that now? Just curious.
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It was really bad in HS this year. Seems like more of the younger kids. Lots of kids looking foolish staring down a pitcher. Especially after a strike out, lol. I saw several kids get warnings this year and a few games had to be stopped for the umps to tell coaches to get control of their teams.
AP,
I coached and managed a youth travel team all the way to 14 years old. A lot of what I witnessed started before 14 years old. Some travel coaches did something about it, and others turned a blind eye to it. People notice this stuff, and take mental notes. We had a number of travel teams in our area (Virginia is a hot bed for baseball), and I watched these kids grow up and play in high school. Most of them grew out of the bad behavior due to their parents and their high school coaches. There were a few that did not, and in every case it was a parent that was enabling and defending the son's behavior.
My 3 sons went to 2 different high schools. My oldest and middle son attended a high school that had a difficult time hiring and keeping a head baseball coach. They did the best they could do under the circumstances. But the bottom line is the players believed they had leverage over the coach as they were not very deep nor did the coach have a lot of experience dealing with it. Their starting nine was very competitive but beyond that there was typically not a lot of experience to back them up. So, there was a lot of acting out and it wasn't pretty. Some parents stepped in and some parents did nothing for whatever reason. Contrast that with my youngest son, who went to our neighborhood high school and had talent coming out its ears every year. The Coach was top shelf and experienced. He didn't take any sh*t from anyone including parents. He had no problem taking anyone out of the lineup or kicking them off the team. My oldest son played on a very elite travel team from 15-17U. There were a couple players on that team that liked to party pretty much all the time (if you catch my drift). Both of these guys had significant talent, and probably could have played anywhere including D1 P5s...they certainly got many looks by D1 P5s. I believe their behavior, attitude and work ethic finally caught up with them. They had a reputation for being disrespectful on the field. Despite all of this, a college team took a chance on them. However, they were gone by 2nd semester freshman year due to bad grades and ganja.
Only my oldest son played college baseball. I didn't see anything blatantly disrespectful in my 4 years watching him or the teams he played. He did tell me there was a lot of "jawing" on the field, but it was generally stuff that made him laugh. I can't speak to summer college baseball as my son did not play there. He worked engineering internships during the summer.
So, my observations are that is that it starts young in youth rec ball or travel ball. It either goes checked or unchecked in youth baseball then high school then travel baseball. If it still goes unchecked then it is in the hands of the college coach. Let's face it....putting it in the hands of the college coach is the wrong place. If that college coach is getting productivity out of that player, he is willing to take some on some crap and further enable the behavior.
Just my experience......
On Facebook I now see preteen travel kids flipping bats and doing dances. If it’s getting posted it’s because the parents think it’s cute.
When my travel players (13u to 16u) mouthed off I got on them. A second offense got them on the bench. A couple of times the mouthing off was deserved. I had to bite back laughing while trying to scold them.
One time it was my son that needed the scolding. After everyone was gone I told him what he said and who he said it to was one of the funniest insults I ever heard. What made it funnier was my son’s idea of getting fired up was saying “let’s get some runs.”
It’s now starting in Little League. Those kids see HS, college, & MLB players showboating, taunting, & disrespecting opponents. Idiot announcers and fans call this “celebrating” so the kids think it’s cool so they emulate the behavior. The entire phenomenon is disgusting to me and IMO the problem starts at home. Too many parents are accepting of disrespect. I know it’s a dicey thing to correct kids’ behavior that aren’t your own, but I think there is nothing wrong with doing that if the situation calls for it.
And I agree with @TerribleBPthrower, it was terrible in HS baseball this year in Texas.
Adbono;
The Coaches [COLLEGE, HS, Summer] have "NO respect" for the game. They truly do not understand. One time our Summer team in Northern California encountered a Coach and his team in the 1st base dugout "chipping" at our players.
During infield practice I instructed our 1st baseman on throws in the range of the dugout to drop his glove and "miss" the ball. The message was given and NO more "chipping". "Chin music" was not needed.
Bob
@Consultant posted:Adbono;
The Coaches [COLLEGE, HS, Summer] have "NO respect" for the game. They truly do not understand. One time our Summer team in Northern California encountered a Coach and his team in the 1st base dugout "chipping" at our players.
During infield practice I instructed our 1st baseman on throws in the range of the dugout to drop his glove and "miss" the ball. The message was given and NO more "chipping". "Chin music" was not needed.
Bob
Yes, self policing the game is a beautiful thing and we need to get back to that. Years ago I was coaching in a travel ball tournament in Dallas (14U - I think) and was watching our scheduled starting pitcher warm up in the bullpen. But it was an open bullpen setup that wasn’t very private. The other team had a brash & mouthy young coach and he brought his entire team over to our bullpen and they formed a half circle about 10’ behind our catcher attempting to watch my pitcher warm up. I told my LHP to ignore the target and throw a fastball right into the middle of the other team. He was too nice of a kid and he wouldn’t do it. So I sent him to the bench and got another pitcher. His first warmup pitch scattered the other team and they went running. Problem solved.
You would never see this from the teams I coached/coach. I won't tolerate it. In fact, in my parent meeting that the players had to attend with their parents, I set the tone early on including what was acceptable from parents. Many years ago, I posted here that I had to remove a couple of parents over the years and one turned really nasty. Again, I would not tolerate it. We were in the sectional championship game and my starting pitcher yelled at the umpire. I called time out, had another pitcher run to the bullpen and told the pitcher he would be done when the other pitcher was ready. He was a great kid but the pressure of the moment got to him. IMO, emotions like that can be used against a player or team. I didn't allow myself to do any stupid stuff. Believe me, over the years I've wanted to. There are more important things than wins and a certain standard has to be maintained. I wanted to build a program that everyone in my state knew. We were fortunate to get that done BUT it was because the players bought in. Finally, we were playing a school over twice our size but a school we needed to play since they were always good. One of their bad actors made an out at 1st and dropped his pants showing his butt to everyone. The HC didn't discipline him. That was the last time we played that school. As with most very good teams/programs, my players were competitors and when people did things like that, they wanted to turn the heat up. Instead, we played ball.
@CoachB25, isn’t it amazing how all old school players/coaches think alike. We know what’s right and what is wrong. And in spite of the current idiotic conditions that try to tell us differently we maintain the course because we know better.
I benched many a kid in travel ball who even began to act like that. A few times kids got benched just from mouthing off in practice. I had no tolerance for any of that.
I never benched a kid for playing poorly or making mistakes in any one game or weekend. What got them benched was a poor attitude or lack of effort/lack of hustle.
The message got across. Some kids quit the team. Other kids joined. At 15U I knew they needed better coaching in terms of the fundamentals so I stopped coaching but kept track of them. Many of them are playing in college now.
This occurred in Massachusetts a few years ago at a powerhouse program …
A kid whiffed. He didn’t like the call. He started giving the umpire an earful. Rather than tossing the kid the umpire told the coach to come get his player.
The kid wouldn't leave the plate. The coach grabbed him by the back of his jersey by the neck and pulled him back to the dugout.
One of the player’s parents called the police and had the coach arrested for assault. The coach was suspended for the season by the school and had to go through anger management and confrontation resolution training.
What should have occurred is the parents being shunned by the other parents. Someone on this board (don’t know if they still post) was at the game. They said the kid was 100% wrong.
I’ve been around parents of this school at football games. Some of them act very arrogant and privileged. I’ve sat near them at Xavarian-Everest football games. Everett ran the Patriots (Brady) offense and were fun to watch. Everett is very blue collar with a lot of black kids on the team. They were always in the hunt if not winning the large classification championship. They send players to P5’s. I heard a lot of (to be polite) condescending comments directed at Everett by Xavarian parents. Xavarian is an expensive private Catholic in a wealthy area.
Coach charged after physical altercation with athlete
https://www.wcvb.com/article/x...ith-athlete/27113718
Baseball coach reinstated
@adbono posted:Yes, self policing the game is a beautiful thing and we need to get back to that. Years ago I was coaching in a travel ball tournament in Dallas (14U - I think) and was watching our scheduled starting pitcher warm up in the bullpen. But it was an open bullpen setup that wasn’t very private. The other team had a brash & mouthy young coach and he brought his entire team over to our bullpen and they formed a half circle about 10’ behind our catcher attempting to watch my pitcher warm up. I told my LHP to ignore the target and throw a fastball right into the middle of the other team. He was too nice of a kid and he wouldn’t do it. So I sent him to the bench and got another pitcher. His first warmup pitch scattered the other team and they went running. Problem solved.
This happened to my son last summer at a showcase in the northeast/mid-Atlantic. I didn’t realize when signing up the showcase was being run by an academy. It was still run well and there were a ton of college coaches in the region in attendance. They put their “scout team” together in the same group/rotation and apparently their turn to hit was against my son. As soon as he started warming up in the pen the team sprinted over to lean against the fence and watch him warm up. It was clearly orchestrated and one of the dumbest things I’ve seen in years. He ended up striking out 8 of the 9 batters he faced. The parents of those kids were pissed the academy would schedule their kids to hit against this kid, lol. Probably the best part was the WWBA in Atlanta was a few weeks away and they asked me if my son would want to pitch for them.
The head of the academy ended up letting those kids get an extra AB against the next pitcher.
Only saw bad behavior from 1 team during the high school season. Ump let it last about 2 innings and the dugout got a warning (Cheer on your team, but there will be no comments directed at the other team). However, there were a lot of teams with really bad fans. If I was a player and those were my fans I would be embarrassed.
Travel ball this season, there has not been much of anything. If a comment goes out towards another team the Umps have jumped on it quickly and it is nipped in the bud.
I watched a kid we know yell the f word on the mound after an error. The Brown coach had been there to see him and he promptly picked up his bag and left.
@TxballDad posted:Only saw bad behavior from 1 team during the high school season. Ump let it last about 2 innings and the dugout got a warning (Cheer on your team, but there will be no comments directed at the other team). However, there were a lot of teams with really bad fans. If I was a player and those were my fans I would be embarrassed.
Travel ball this season, there has not been much of anything. If a comment goes out towards another team the Umps have jumped on it quickly and it is nipped in the bud.
Travel ball always seems to be 100x more chill than high school ball. That being said, we had a team in a local tournament 2 weeks ago who were very interesting. One kid got tossed for bulldogging our catcher. Their asst coach came out to yell at the catcher after. Their parents were acting like it was game 7 of the WS in the first inning of a random pool game. The head coach spent most of the game apologizing to our coach when he was supposed to be coaching 3rd saying, "That's not who we are or how we coach." lol
@adbono posted:@CoachB25, isn’t it amazing how all old school players/coaches think alike. We know what’s right and what is wrong. And in spite of the current idiotic conditions that try to tell us differently we maintain the course because we know better.
Don't you think that players really want discipline? IMO, the vast majority want to win and win as a team. Therefore, they have to have rules/standards that help them achieve their goals. The truth is, I rarely had to discipline my teams. The players did that for me. If you asked them, they would use one word, "tradition."
@CoachB25 posted:Don't you think that players really want discipline? IMO, the vast majority want to win and win as a team. Therefore, they have to have rules/standards that help them achieve their goals. The truth is, I rarely had to discipline my teams. The players did that for me. If you asked them, they would use one word, "tradition."
Nice post. It's the coaches responsibility to make sure that players discipline themselves through team leadership.
I chalk a lot of it up to far to many non-baseball guys coaching baseball, too many schools doubling up football and hockey coaches to coach the baseball team rather than finding real baseball guys. They try and bring the tough guy concept of firing their team up through verbal abuse of the other team and players to "get them off their game", etc. OR chirping to also fire themselves up by being emotionally aggressive, yet baseball is not a game played like football or hockey and this strategy often backfires, which then leads to the behavior of yelling at umps, throwing equipment etc. when things go bad for that player, because they can't handle the emotional swings and failure inherent in baseball. Baseball requires positive energy, CONFIDENCE and an ability to put a mistake behind you and stay even keeled. Chirping and posturing is negative energy that tries to artificially create confidence by putting others down, it doesn't really create real confidence in oneself that is so crucial to the game. It simply leads to more and more of it and additional behavioral issues on the field.
If the coaches won't stop it, it will only get worse.
@CoachB25 posted:Don't you think that players really want discipline? IMO, the vast majority want to win and win as a team. Therefore, they have to have rules/standards that help them achieve their goals. The truth is, I rarely had to discipline my teams. The players did that for me. If you asked them, they would use one word, "tradition."
I think there has to be a modicum of discipline in any team sport. And it currently seems to be lacking in almost all teams in any sport you choose. Any great team that I have ever been associated with as a player, coach, or fan had a number if things in common and a big one was leadership from within the ranks of the players. Another common thread was team over individual. The reverse is also true. Any team that didn’t have those qualities exhibited by the players underachieved. No matter how talented. What I believe is that we have a societal problem that has bled into baseball. Too many kids think that they don’t have to accept discipline - from anyone. And too many kids refuse to think of anything ahead of themselves. Kids play selfish. You will hear coaches complaining about that all the time if you are listening. But to answer your question, I believe the smart kids (that really get it) want discipline because they understand how important it is to team success. But I’m afraid those kinds of kids are a minority that is shrinking by the day.
@TPM posted:Nice post. It's the coaches responsibility to make sure that players discipline themselves through team leadership.
I will share a positive thing related to this. My son's college team displays this consistently. They are what I consider a model for team behavior in the traditional sense. They don't chirp but are vocal all the time in a positive manner and not over hyped when not really necessary.
During the last weekend of the season which determined both seeding and admission to the conference tournament, one of our players bobbled a grounder, recovered and the runner beat it out by a hair,,,the play resulted in tying the game. When he came in the dugout he swore and threw his glove into the bench, several of the team leaders went over and told him flat out, "hey, we don't do that". Then proceeded to let him know it would be okay and began to lift him back up. No coach had to say anything. This team attitude comes from the expectations set by the coaches, but it does have a more lasting affect when administered by the team leadership who know how much and how to apply it.
At the HS level it does probably need to come more from the coaches as it would take an extremely mature 17/18yo to be able to handle those leadership roles effectively and know the difference between punishment and correction. That's also why there is a lot more that should go into assigning team captains then just whose the best player on the team. There are some mature HS'ers out there, but much rarer than you'd find with 22/23yo college players
- @baseballhs posted:
I watched a kid we know yell the f word on the mound after an error. The Brown coach had been there to see him and he promptly picked up his bag and left.
Lucky kid! I’m still trying to figure how how the Brown coach keeps his job for eleven years with a .331 win percentage.
@HSDad22 posted:I will share a positive thing related to this. My son's college team displays this consistently. They are what I consider a model for team behavior in the traditional sense. They don't chirp but are vocal all the time in a positive manner and not over hyped when not really necessary.
During the last weekend of the season which determined both seeding and admission to the conference tournament, one of our players bobbled a grounder, recovered and the runner beat it out by a hair,,,the play resulted in tying the game. When he came in the dugout he swore and threw his glove into the bench, several of the team leaders went over and told him flat out, "hey, we don't do that". Then proceeded to let him know it would be okay and began to lift him back up. No coach had to say anything. This team attitude comes from the expectations set by the coaches, but it does have a more lasting affect when administered by the team leadership who know how much and how to apply it.
Bingo!
Winning comes from leadership, not intimidation.
My observation coming from my college POV.
This is going to sound dramatic but there is no threat of a physical confrontation anymore. The younger crowd seems to have become comfortable acting disrespectful knowing there is almost zero threat of being taken up on the words.
There is a difference between getting pumped after a big out, hit, win, etc and blatantly running your mouth knowing the other guys have too much to lose to do anything about.
I don't want to this to come off as a sounding like a back in my day tough guy, but blatant disrespect was dealt with however is needed to be dealt with. And that applied to anybody with a shred of self respect, not just the "tough guys"
Too many cameras, social media. You assault (we called it fighting) somebody all it takes is a viral Facebook post and their name is plastered all over the internet, you get sued, people call your employer, etc. You used to fight and get over it within the hour.
Mike Tyson has a (in)famous quote on this matter.
I've also seen great examples of team leadership undermined by a weak head coach. In some cases I sorta don't blame coaches these days because no matter what they do a parent(s) is going to complain to the AD to get them fired. However, I think the best HS coaches are able to stand up to whatever threats or political pressures might be.
Everyone has seen this behavior; I'm curious, is it coming from the best players on teams, or other players? Because the college examples seem to involve very good players. And so I wonder about how they were treated in HS, expected to show off, not gonna get kicked off no matter what they did, etc.?
For sure the vibes are different in HS vs. travel: HS can have a lot of meanings, fans might be people other than parents, rabid heckling can take place. In travel, the only people who care are family. Also, I seem to remember being told that kids need to behave in travel because college coaches might be watching...
@anotherparent posted:Everyone has seen this behavior; I'm curious, is it coming from the best players on teams, or other players? Because the college examples seem to involve very good players. And so I wonder about how they were treated in HS, expected to show off, not gonna get kicked off no matter what they did, etc.?
For sure the vibes are different in HS vs. travel: HS can have a lot of meanings, fans might be people other than parents, rabid heckling can take place. In travel, the only people who care are family. Also, I seem to remember being told that kids need to behave in travel because college coaches might be watching...
I've only seen it with either the really good stud players and the kids who will never see the field. Those kids seem to get bored and make a lot of unnecessary trash talking.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:I've also seen great examples of team leadership undermined by a weak head coach. In some cases I sorta don't blame coaches these days because no matter what they do a parent(s) is going to complain to the AD to get them fired. However, I think the best HS coaches are able to stand up to whatever threats or political pressures might be.
Our high school had not only player behavior issues but parental behavior issues. When my daughter entered high school a new AD was hired. At the time there were too many situations where the parents owned the coaches.
Over time the new AD replaced most of the coaches. He turned a mostly athletically doormat high school into being competitive in every sport and perennial conference contenders in some.
His rule was if the parent wanted a meeting with a coach he (the AD) had to be present. The rule eliminated a lot of parental requests for meetings. Parents realized they couldn’t BS and attempt to intimate the AD.
The trash talking I saw/heard in high school baseball was mostly in good spirit. It was from travel teammates competing against each other in high school.
The nasty trash talking was in girl’s softball. One high school used to call our girls The Sluts. It was a better than average looking group of girls. In turn they referred to the name calling team as The Pigs. They had a more than typical number of bulkier girls.
Was at a 15u PG tourney this past weekend and the behavior of the two teams that played before us was an embarrassment to baseball. Chirping, bat flipping on bases loaded walks, parent being tossed for yelling the "Umpires Suck" out loud, pitchers and or batters complaining about strike/ball counts after nearly every pitch. (all day long the pitch to righties two balls off the plate has been a strike, somehow the hitters can't grasp that and the pitchers expect 4 or 5 off the plate too) Finally a coach tries to discipline his team for their behavior (really just a gesture to make it look like he was doing something) and a mother in the stands flips out because their kid got yelled at to get back in the dugout, and words go back and forth between coach and parent in front of everyone. Team that lost gives a fake sarcastic salute to other team, organized by the coaches, then says it was really for the Umpires.
It's sad, and the thing is that everyone has seen those contracts you sign to join a team, about behavior and consequences, basically that you can be removed from the team without compensation, etc. As if that would actually happen. And how about those team mission statements on the team websites all about building respectful young men, blah blah blah...
The umpires had words with the PG sponsors at the end of the game, but If PG wanted to take things seriously they would ban the two teams from PG events for the rest of the year.
And to be clear, the umpires did a pretty good job all tourney.
Of course not every kid acted like a moron, but overall and when acting as a group, there weren't too many of those kids. It really painted a picture of what the two programs were like. These programs are not doing the kids any favors.
@HSDad22 posted:Was at a 15u PG tourney this past weekend and the behavior of the two teams that played before us was an embarrassment to baseball. Chirping, bat flipping on bases loaded walks, parent being tossed for yelling the "Umpires Suck" out loud, pitchers and or batters complaining about strike/ball counts after nearly every pitch. (all day long the pitch to righties two balls off the plate has been a strike, somehow the hitters can't grasp that and the pitchers expect 4 or 5 off the plate too) Finally a coach tries to discipline his team for their behavior (really just a gesture to make it look like he was doing something) and a mother in the stands flips out because their kid got yelled at to get back in the dugout, and words go back and forth between coach and parent in front of everyone. Team that lost gives a fake sarcastic salute to other team, organized by the coaches, then says it was really for the Umpires.
It's sad, and the thing is that everyone has seen those contracts you sign to join a team, about behavior and consequences, basically that you can be removed from the team without compensation, etc. As if that would actually happen. And how about those team mission statements on the team websites all about building respectful young men, blah blah blah...
The umpires had words with the PG sponsors at the end of the game, but If PG wanted to take things seriously they would ban the two teams from PG events for the rest of the year.
And to be clear, the umpires did a pretty good job all tourney.
Of course not every kid acted like a moron, but overall and when acting as a group, there weren't too many of those kids. It really painted a picture of what the two programs were like. These programs are not doing the kids any favors.
In my role as Volunteer Asst Coach at a Texas JuCo I see a lot of HS games and a lot of local travel ball tournaments. I must say that the above post is an accurate description of what I see a lot. It’s all very disheartening.
Bad player behavior starts in pre-school, in homes where parents don’t teach children respect, and in homes where kids aren’t taught that there are consequences to actions, both good consequences and bad.
By the time they get to high school these kids have had a decade plus of being coddled and catered to, and it just…ain’t…a…good…look
Thought I would add a little levity to this thread.....
Son's D3 team was playing a very very good D3 team and was getting cooked. The opposing team was chirping from the dugout like a HS girls softball team, only they weren't shouting words of encouragement. Son's HC was coaching 3rd and one of the players on the team, whom I refer to as Dirtbag, starts chirping back at them. HC steps toward the dugout and tells Dirtbag to give it a rest. HC says " they just don't know how to act when they are winning". I loved this. At bat is over and Dirtbag approaches the HC and says he was " tired of no one giving it back to them". HC looks straight at him and says " I know I know, but you are 0-4 with 3 strike outs, your just not that guy today". It was the funniest exchange I've ever witnessed between a player and coach. Side note...Dirtbag was a dude.
P.S. Son's team ended up knocking them out of the conference tournament for some revenge....and boy was there some chirping from our dugout.
I do like "let the kids play" and have them have some fun but I think there are limits to it. I do not like aggressive taunting,shouting expletives and stuff like that.
On the flip side of the issue raised by the OP…….last night at dinner I noticed a teenager at the table next to me wearing a travel ball uniform from an org I know well. His was a large family birthday gathering that was well attended. During the meal I saw this kid get up to assist a wheelchair dependent family member and later leave the table to take care of his younger sisters & nieces. After I paid out I ran into him on my way to my car. I asked for his name, who his travel ball coach is, and what HS he played for. I told him what I had seen, that I was impressed by his character, and that if he was any good I would help him to get seen. I guess there are 2 points to this post ; 1) there is always hope, and ; 2) anytime a player is in uniform someone is watching how they act.
We just got back from a large 17U tourney in Indy at Grand Park. We played a team who started chirping our second baseman when he made an error, talking shit on him, telling him he was awful etc. They were down 8-0 mind you when they were saying this.
The Home plate umpire immediately stopped the game and walked over to their dugout yelling at them to focus on their own team and not talking to the other team.
Last night I watched three innings of 14u game on PG TV. One of the teams was a national program you would all recognize the name.
First, is it necessary to fly 14u players in from all over the country every weekend to win a 14u tournament? Second, whenever they got a hit it was a one man party with dancing at the base. I was surprised the kid who hit the homer didn’t do handstands circling the bases. If this is how elite 14u travel players are allowed to act this is the future of baseball. I don’t care what’s cool now. I wouldn’t allow my players to act like fools every time they get a hit.
Has anyone ever heard a coach or scout say, "i love the way that kid flips his bat after a homer" or "that kid's homer celebration is elite and definitely plays at our level"?
@Master P posted:We just got back from a large 17U tourney in Indy at Grand Park. We played a team who started chirping our second baseman when he made an error, talking shit on him, telling him he was awful etc. They were down 8-0 mind you when they were saying this.
The Home plate umpire immediately stopped the game and walked over to their dugout yelling at them to focus on their own team and not talking to the other team.
I appreciate the ump's efforts in curbing the negative talk. Meanwhile, son and I went to a collegiate summer league game and got to hear the ump behind the plate drop the f-bomb right in front of a bunch of children at the game. Oddly that ump had umped one of my son's games earlier this year and we thought he wasn't very good. His actions the other week at this collegiate league just solidified our impression of him.
I played high school and college ball in the 70’s. There was a lot of chirping. Any short player was bound to be asked if he was the last one to know it’s raining. The only rules were an opposing team couldn’t yell out a players name. But you could yell, “Hey! Second base …” There was an opposing pitcher in high school our bench players could pick the inning they wanted to get in his head and make him lose his mind.
The '18 and under teams in the Northern California [SF Bay Area] during the Summer were coached by former College Coach, Pro Players and the teams during the 1980's each team included 2-3 future MLB players. All games were attended by 3-4 pro scouts and the Fall Scout teams were produced from this League.
The respect for the game and the desire to learn the "art of competing" was #1. If there was "bad behavior"by a player, the Coaches handled it internally or with the "Bob Gibson" rule.
Watch a pro scout when he will use his "pencil" to "cross off" a prospect because of his "behavior".
Bob
I saw this on Twitter this morning. Posting here as I believe it accurately sums up why current behavior is cause for concern.
As I have said on here many times, I'm not a fan of the stuff that is happening in today's world. But the problem is we don't want to see it in our kids and our teams. We want to justify it away and say but they did it because rather than say sin (bad behavior) is sin (bad behavior). We live in a world where it is not okay if you do it but it is okay if me or mine do it. We want to justify our behavior within society rather than the standard. Bad behavior is bad behavior whether me or mine do it or you or yours do it.
I'm so tired of people saying but "they are a good kid." No. Good kids don't do some of the things that are happening today. I read it on here and hear it all the time. Locally, we had a kid arrested for selling drugs and trying to kill another kid and a lady at church said but he's a good kid. I said no he's not a good kid. Good kids don't do drugs or sell drugs or shoot people. Until we get back to what is acceptable behavior in life we will not get to what is acceptable behavior in sports.
If a kid is supremely talented, he'll continue to advance regardless of attitude, behavior, demeanor, etc.
Most kids aren't supremely talented. As Bob points out, they'll get lines through their names.
@RJM posted:Last night I watched three innings of 14u game on PG TV. One of the teams was a national program you would all recognize the name.
First, is it necessary to fly 14u players in from all over the country every weekend to win a 14u tournament? Second, whenever they got a hit it was a one man party with dancing at the base. I was surprised the kid who hit the homer didn’t do handstands circling the bases. If this is how elite 14u travel players are allowed to act this is the future of baseball. I don’t care what’s cool now. I wouldn’t allow my players to act like fools every time they get a hit.
I played high school and college ball in the 70’s. There was a lot of chirping. Any short player was bound to be asked if he was the last one to know it’s raining. The only rules were an opposing team couldn’t yell out a players name. But you could yell, “Hey! Second base …” There was an opposing pitcher in high school our bench players could pick the inning they wanted to get in his head and make him lose his mind.
I combined two separate posts from @RJM above
Not to pick on him, but to show that "bad behavior" is completely subjective. He's annoyed by today's celebrations but then tells us verbally abusing opponents was common place 50 years ago.
I have almost the exact opposite view. I don't care if a team wants to have a parade after every hit. But in my mind, "chirping" at the opponent is as weak as it gets. Beat me on the field, not with your mouth.
My point is we will never stop "bad behavior" because people will never agree on it's definition.
My golden rule to my son..." Just don't be an A-hole. " That goes for life and baseball.
Ruh-Roh Raggy!
@DaddyBaller posted:I combined two separate posts from @RJM above
Not to pick it on him, but to show that "bad behavior" is completely subjective. He's annoyed by today's celebrations but then tells us verbally abusing opponents was common place 50 years ago.
I have almost the exact opposite view. I don't care if a team wants to have a parade after every hit. But in my mind, "chirping" at the opponent is as weak as it gets. Beat me on the field, not with your mouth.
My point is we will never stop "bad behavior" because people will never agree on it's definition.
My golden rule to my son..." Just don't be an A-hole. " That goes for life and baseball.
The chirping was usually funny stuff that distracted opposing players. Of course, the player with big ears probably didn’t think it being mentioned was funny. It’s the same stuff that goes on today between frat guys in the stands and opposing players. In college ball if a D1 player has rabbit ears and thin skin he’s not going to last very long.
One year the Big 10 tournament was played in Omaha there were 25,000 Nebraska fans in the stands. My son said the harassment was constant, entertaining and amusing. He had to focus to not be distracted. He gave it back to them during warm up throws. He said some of the insults tossed at him were so funny he wished he could have written them down.
@DaddyBaller posted:I combined two separate posts from @RJM above
Not to pick on him, but to show that "bad behavior" is completely subjective. He's annoyed by today's celebrations but then tells us verbally abusing opponents was common place 50 years ago.
I have almost the exact opposite view. I don't care if a team wants to have a parade after every hit. But in my mind, "chirping" at the opponent is as weak as it gets. Beat me on the field, not with your mouth.
My point is we will never stop "bad behavior" because people will never agree on it's definition.
My golden rule to my son..." Just don't be an A-hole. " That goes for life and baseball.
Whenever I see a post like this my reaction is always the same. It’s, “well obviously this guy never played at a high level - if he ever played at all.” Guys that have played understand where the line is that shouldn’t be crossed. Guys that didn’t play don’t- and never will.
Interesting take @adbono....
I say that hard part of controlling "bad behavior" is that people disagree on the definition.
You tell me I never played high level ball. You win...I guess?
What I do know is every night I see highlights of guys playing at the highest level that probably have a different opinion on the subject then you.
Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's happening.
Until MLB institutes a discipline committee of guys who played college ball in the 70's and 80's it's not going away.
A discipline committee? OMG! Absolutely not necessary. The game can police itself. All there has to be is consequences for the behavior and for people to stop supporting it. Disrespectful behavior is being promoted in all walks of life - not just in sports. And it’s not by accident. Take a look at how kids are allowed to behave in school. Look at the civil divide that is promoted on a daily basis while msm says everything but the truth. It’s all part of the process of tearing down western civilization. It’s a symptom of a much, much bigger problem. That’s why it’s important to take a stand against behavior that isn’t good for our society. People that understand are speaking up. Those that don’t see issues like this as trivial. But they aren’t.
What the heck does MLB have to do with bad behavior in HS?
What's considered bad behavior, if greeting your teammate at home plate after HR is bad behavior what's your opinion of what happens at hockey games?
Edit...nothing better to celebrate than a walkoff win, no matter what level.
JMO
@TPM posted:What the heck does MLB have to do with bad behavior in HS?
What's considered bad behavior
I will let @adbono answer your first question with his first post in this thread
"Those kids see HS, college, & MLB players showboating, taunting, & disrespecting opponents. Idiot announcers and fans call this “celebrating” so the kids think it’s cool so they emulate the behavior."
And he is 100% correct. An 8 year old doesn't bat flip and pimp a home run without seeing it somewhere first. This all starts from the top down.
Your second question is the more important one and the only one that really matters..."What is considered bad behavior?"
My answer is " I have no idea! ".... All I can say with certainty is that different people will give you different answers all over the spectrum.
While someone like Ronald Acuna Jr. might be "crossing lines" that some old school baseball dudes don't like, the Atlanta Braves seem to be okay with it. And little kids / teens eat it up.
So I admire the old heads on this board for "taking a stand". Custer took one too.
But reality is they are battling a much younger army that's probably going to win the war of attrition.
I see it this way. Sports fall into the entertainment category. I did not see anything wrong in the video. It was entertaining.
ML players seem to take care of those that break the unwritten rules. I saw a video of a pitcher intentionally hit a batter for his behavior. The pitcher was Joe Kelly, who is great at that stuff. Twitter (now X) world went nuts. The batter needed a little attitude adjustment I am assuming.
NCAA came down with new rules this season. You can flip your bat, not in front of the opposing team. You can celebrate HRs, in your dugout. Pitcher's can fist pump, not in front of the opposing team. I really enjoyed this year. Some teams, especially instate are big time rivalries. Stuff happens. It's the coaches responsibility to send their team a message before the series.
I am not familiar with HS or travel ball antics. If it's happening, that's on the coach.
I also agree with AL.
JMO
Where are you in Florida?
Question asked at an umpire clinic one day - "How do you judge what malicious contact is"? The answer "You will know when you see it.".... Same rule applies for some of these behavior questions. FWIW: I agree with adbono about the pervasiveness in our society these days and the issue is complex. There isn't a simple answer. The game can police itself, but sometimes someone has to be the adult as painful as it is and apply their owner personal definition to where the line in the sand is.
Most of the bad player behavior is caused by adults. The coaches and parents are the ones telling kids to do such and such at younger ages. "Next time just run them over." "Put one in his earhole." "Don't take that." And on and on. I hear it every time I go to a youth or HS game.
I have been following this topic for some time and IMO it starts way before HS. I do a lot of youth league umping. Today teams come with soundsystems, walk up music for each player, and name announcements for each at bat that sound like they got a professional to do it. It does start with the parents. One example comes to mind is at an 8yo game - pop up to the infield - parents yelling "drop it". Not to mention the parents chirping about every ball and strike. Little behavior traits start young then are allowed to grow. By the time they get to HS these behaviors have been rooted iin the player for years. Again, just my 2 cents, the solution has to start at the youth level and has to be istilled by both coaches and parents.
In reference to the last post it bothered me the first time I saw my 9u son in his travel uniform, marching bag and matching jacket. He looked like a mini major leaguer. I believe it created expectations for parents of the players and umpires.
When I formed an elite 13u to 16u team I was pleased the kids preferred to play in their tees than expensive tops. They didn’t care their names weren’t on the tees. They enjoyed showing up like dirtbags, giving the other team a false sense of confidence and kicking their rears.
@NewUmpire posted:I have been following this topic for some time and IMO it starts way before HS. I do a lot of youth league umping. Today teams come with soundsystems, walk up music for each player, and name announcements for each at bat that sound like they got a professional to do it. It does start with the parents. One example comes to mind is at an 8yo game - pop up to the infield - parents yelling "drop it". Not to mention the parents chirping about every ball and strike. Little behavior traits start young then are allowed to grow. By the time they get to HS these behaviors have been rooted iin the player for years. Again, just my 2 cents, the solution has to start at the youth level and has to be istilled by both coaches and parents.
Okay. going to rant. sorry.
Very true, and I hate showing up at a game and see the team breaking out loud speakers... I just know that team will be obnoxious.... but let's admit something... The umpiring in youth sports through high school is just bad. I mean really bad. Tag plays, they should just flip a coin, they'd be right more often.
The worst is when you hear umpires telling the two coaches he's going to have a big strike zone because he wants to keep the game moving,,, then can't decide if the same pitch this time is a strike again or a ball. Is it fair to any kid to be down 0-2 on pitches in the other batters box, just so a game moves faster? Play by the established strike zone in the rules, then at least nobody who complains has a foot to stand on when it's called right.
Here is a hint to parents... If your kid can't throw strikes, he's probably not a pitcher, and that starts at a young age. There are pitchers that are born and others that are made, but the latter needs to work on it and not when it's a game so that everyone else has to suffer through walk after walk after walk, while he's figuring it out... Good pitchers are pitchers first and position players second, not the other way around. But Umpires should not enable this problem by calling bad pitches strikes.
I will say I hear parents complaining about pitches when they are sitting somewhere they could never tell whether the ball crossed the plate or not, and I wish they'd just shut up. Most times those parents that complain, are right about 50% of the time, but when you complain every pitch you'll be right half the time. I get more disturbed based on the way they complain. It is the rare day that an umpire calls a good game, and I usually make it a point to say "nice game" and nothing more to them when they do.
I sit behind the plate since my kid is a catcher and we both agree there is no rhyme or reason why pitches are called what they are more than 50% of the time. but I don't say anything, a groan may escape once in a while, but not often. There are games my son will just set up on the line of the opposite batters box all day and when his pitchers can hit that, it's usually a shutout. He never complains, 1 it's not in his nature and 2. he doesn't want to sabotage his pitchers.
HSDad22 - seems to be written by someone who's never put on the gear and has an axe to grind with umpires... At least catcher's get a break every 1/2 inning ;-). Consistency is hard, but not impossible. Just like in every profession, not everyone is professional about it. Once you call one on that outside part of the plate or in the other batter's box, you need to be committed to it. If the P can hit it, the C consistently sets up there, and you call it, then well the other team better make adjustments. If they don't, you have spelled out what happens.
Slightly agree w/ your point about can't throw strikes... But what would you really do if you put yourself in those shoes? Would you continue to call a strict and tight zone and not succumb to either jeers or having a heart for the poor kid? Please, I want a video of you being an umpire like that. But to keep with the theme of this - why should bad behavior by players / parents / coaches to jeer be accepted? Ever been a pitcher? Some kids want to be a pitcher because then they're part of every play rather than being bored to tears by ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, etc. Then they realize how hard it is and some coach wants to send a message so he/she keeps that kid out there. Some parent is pissed because the umpire isn't calling strikes and because the coach won't rescue their child. Try to logically work through stuff before sitting on some high and mighty throne projecting what "should" be done.
As for saying "nice game" only when you agree with an umpire's decisions all day and nothing in other cases, that just seems disingenuous. BTW: I've called in NH (that's your location according to your profile) and still know quite a few umpires up there and am well aware of variations in talent between Div 1 thru 4 (formerly L, I, M, S). I'm sure I could find you an association looking for apprentices - may I suggest starting at https://www.nhbua.org/apprentice.php - I did that program back in 2009-ish while my sons played. Of course that was after 8+ years working for a group that called many games in the greater Manchester area.
I thought I’d chime in on this one after all…
I think most need to lighten up a bit. To me it’s a bit like free speech, I may not like what you’re saying, but I need to accept and respect your rights (within the law) else I void my own.
Travel ball and all the silly things us parents bring to the table, how is this not one of everyone’s favorite things? The parents are having fun, from what I’ve seen the kids are having fun and I know I’m having fun enjoying the show. From plastic water bottles full of rocks for impromptu noise makers, amazing team banners, custom uniforms and bat bags, custom sound systems or wagon mounted coolers – the possibilities are endless, and how I miss the show.
I’m an ultra-conservative sports parent, that means I don’t/didn’t wear team gear or caps, no kid related decals/signs on my vehicles or lawns, no smack talk, nor have I ever had an altercation with another parent. I have philosophical reasons for this and it’s right for me, but that doesn’t mean having over the top fun isn’t right for others. Baseball is meant to be fun! I often text my kid before he plays “Have fun today!” and he’s in the MLB – succeeding and having fun are his goals. I think he even enjoyed being on field for yesterday’s bench clearing debacle…
As for attitude and behavior on the field, that’s touchy one. I don’t see attitude, effort, desire, and results as always being linked. We don’t turn SportsCenter on to watch low effort success, and how you package what you do will impact your opportunities, but again everyone is different. My son shows very little emotion when he plays, but he’s fiercely competitive, you need to know him well to understand how much he cares.
I would just say, don’t get wrapped up in what others do as long as it’s within the rules. Part of their goal is to get under your skin, and if they do, they’ve won. I don’t like to lose…
Today in a MLB game I saw a player slam his helmet and bat after striking out. We benched my son at age 10 for doing that.
We are about to enter the phase of summer that has become the bane of my existence - the ESPN coverage of the LLWS. If you want a preview of the kind of behavior that is currently being demonstrated just tune into one of the regional tournaments. It’s bad. I mean really bad. Young baseball players should not be allowed to act like this. Common sense will tell you that children that act like this turn into adults that act like this. Which isn’t good for anyone except those that profit from our unhinged legal system. A question has been asked in this thread about how to define unacceptable behavior. I don’t think it’s all that difficult. Celebrating to a reasonable extent is acceptable. Blatantly disrespectful behavior is not acceptable. There is some gray area in between. But if you have been around baseball for any length of time it’s not hard to separate celebration from disrespect. What really overcooks my grits is to hear the clown announcers at ESPN promote & celebrate the bad behavior of children on a baseball field. Of course they are ordered to do so by the ESPN/Disney executives that employ them. But that doesn’t make it okay. Disney has long been known to prey on children. This is preying on them in a different way. Kind of like how their theme parks are portrayed as wholesome family fun when they are actually just the opposite. This is just one little part of an overwhelming attempt to destroy family values that have existed for generations.
Last night Kevin Youkilis, former Red Sox player and current color man was discussing travel ball behavior, the players and parents. The basis of his discussion was if you wonder where the behavior you see on the MLB field comes from look at travel ball. His kids are young. His niece has been through travel and now stars at UCLA. He said blames the parents and coaches for allowing it, not the players.
When my son was eleven his first home run ever was a walk off in a LL all star game. As he approached home he broke into his best Harry Kalas (Phillies announcer at the time) imitation. It was pure innocent excitement. The opposing coach was pissed. Today, no one would notice.
@adbono posted:We are about to enter the phase of summer that has become the bane of my existence - the ESPN coverage of the LLWS. If you want a preview of the kind of behavior that is currently being demonstrated just tune into one of the regional tournaments. It’s bad. I mean really bad. Young baseball players should not be allowed to act like this. Common sense will tell you that children that act like this turn into adults that act like this. Which isn’t good for anyone except those that profit from our unhinged legal system. A question has been asked in this thread about how to define unacceptable behavior. I don’t think it’s all that difficult. Celebrating to a reasonable extent is acceptable. Blatantly disrespectful behavior is not acceptable. There is some gray area in between. But if you have been around baseball for any length of time it’s not hard to separate celebration from disrespect. What really overcooks my grits is to hear the clown announcers at ESPN promote & celebrate the bad behavior of children on a baseball field. Of course they are ordered to do so by the ESPN/Disney executives that employ them. But that doesn’t make it okay. Disney has long been known to prey on children. This is preying on them in a different way. Kind of like how their theme parks are portrayed as wholesome family fun when they are actually just the opposite. This is just one little part of an overwhelming attempt to destroy family values that have existed for generations.
I watched some of the regional tournaments the last 2 days. Nothing stood out to me in terms of bad behavior. In fact, the thought that comes to mind is that the reactions of the kids and coaches in LLWS on TV must be very contrived to suppress their natural reactions bec they are so nice compared to what I see in travel ball (esp how the coaches talk to the kids). Now you got me wondering if I'm part of the problem... 
The other thought that came to mind yesterday as I watch OK melt down against LA is that these games should not be on TV for the world to witness a kid's worst sporting moment. I don't know if these painful memory will last a lot longer and maybe even leave a scar bec it was televised worldwide (or at least nationwide).
@atlnon posted:I watched some of the regional tournaments the last 2 days. Nothing stood out to me in terms of bad behavior. In fact, the thought that comes to mind is that the reactions of the kids and coaches in LLWS on TV must be very contrived to suppress their natural reactions bec they are so nice compared to what I see in travel ball (esp how the coaches talk to the kids). Now you got me wondering if I'm part of the problem...
The other thought that came to mind yesterday as I watch OK melt down against LA is that these games should not be on TV for the world to witness a kid's worst sporting moment. I don't know if these painful memory will last a lot longer and maybe even leave a scar bec it was televised worldwide (or at least nationwide).
Well, if I got you thinking about the bigger picture I call that a W. I agree with your point about these games being promoted as can’t miss TV. Glamorizing minimal athletic performances by 12 year olds is not a good thing. For every hero there are multiple goats. Even the success is at times too much. Google the story of Cody Webster.
IMO, what happened to Cody is just a reminder about how adults can screw up kids.
My motto was game over, whether it was a good one or not. It was take what you learned about today and see if you can even make it better. I don't remember ever having to punish son for any bad behavior at the field. He had good men as coaches that reminded them of the consequences. Dad stopped coaching early on.
I think sometimes we mistake bad behavior for what is due to the competitive and passionate nature of those that play this game. The struggle can be very real and everyone is wired differently.
@TPM posted:IMO, what happened to Cody is just a reminder about how adults can screw up kids.
My motto was game over, whether it was a good one or not. It was take what you learned about today and see if you can even make it better. I don't remember ever having to punish son for any bad behavior at the field. He had good men as coaches that reminded them of the consequences. Dad stopped coaching early on.
I think sometimes we mistake bad behavior for what is due to the competitive and passionate nature of those that play this game. The struggle can be very real and everyone is wired differently.
This ^^^^
@adbono posted:Well, if I got you thinking about the bigger picture I call that a W. I agree with your point about these games being promoted as can’t miss TV. Glamorizing minimal athletic performances by 12 year olds is not a good thing. For every hero there are multiple goats. Even the success is at times too much. Google the story of Cody Webster.
Ok, I just saw some video snippets on social media of what the kids from OK were doing earlier in the game (like sitting down on the base after a good hit). I take back what I said yesterday.
@atlnon posted:Ok, I just saw some video snippets on social media of what the kids from OK were doing earlier in the game (like sitting down on the base after a good hit). I take back what I said yesterday.
Come on. This is not professional baseball. These are kids having fun or supposed to be having fun. If this is traditionally what's done, it's not disrespectful, unless told otherwise.
JMO
@TPM posted:Come on. This is not professional baseball. These are kids having fun or supposed to be having fun. If this is traditionally what's done, it's not disrespectful, unless told otherwise.
JMO
Sitting down on second base pretending to meditate after a good hit is not something I've ever seen before, even from the craziest most obnoxious travel ball teams. I'll go watch the replay of the game sometime this weekend to make sure I see the full context and that I am not missing anything.
Saw this in yesterday's game and thought of this thread. I have to admit that this did not sit well with me and made me root for Curacao (and happy that Curacao won with a walk off HR). Does this mean that I am <gasp!!!> a boomer?!?
And that is why I hate watching LLWS. This is an ejection at any level but ESPN has bought the rights to tell the umpires how to umpire for entertainment value. What happens when the runner retaliates? Who gets ejected?
