Bean ball etiquette?

Is the "intent" or "act" of hitting a batter the same as pitching inside, or establishing the inside part of the plate?

 

1.   pitching inside is not performed with the direct intent of hitting him (or at least   at the amateur level it should not). 
2.   you practice hitting inside spots during bullpens so as to be able to pitch inside, and establish that territory belonging to the pitcher
3.   you do not practice hitting a batter, and I am a firm believer that the brain maps what it practices.  Remember last year A Rod was plunked by Dempster (I think it was him), however the first pitch missed as it sailed behind him.  Why would a seasoned pro known for command, miss a large bodied professional like A Rod on his first attempt to hit him?  Because it was not a pitch location that Dempster has mapped, and practiced.

I don't believe it is any opposing team's responsibility to take bad sportsmanship, and give the opponent any "teaching moment", nor do I think any perceived "teaching moment" will have any positive outcome, other than the the retaliating party feeling somehow avenged.

 

I like CoachB25's suggested method of handling it - coach to coach. 

 

 

 

 

d8:  regarding - "My player did what some have said is acceptable by applying a hard tag. Is this(hitting a defenseless kid lying on the ground with ball in glove)  less dangerous than throwing inside?  What should I have done to my player? Give him congrats? Pulled him? Ignore the situation?  So what do you do to your player that retaliates, but you did not call for it? "

 

Coaches responsibility early on in the season is to establish a leadership role, which includes how he expects HIS players to conduct themselves in the classroom, and on the field.  ALL players on a team identify whether their coach will hold them accountable for their actions, or not.  If a team has rogue players acting outside the lines of acceptable behavior, then the coach did a poor job of explaining how he expects the game to be played.

My son is a catcher he has no problem calling for a pitcher to hit batter, I have no problem with either, but with that being said he has figured out something better. When the a jackhole is acting a fool on bases, or they do something to one of your team mates, as the catcher he looks at the batter and tells them "you like what they are doing" he waits for answer and then tells them "well your going to pay for it". The batter becomes nervous and most of the time yells at the runner. But the funniest thing the kid is so nervous about getting hit, he is an easy out.

+1.  SS circling in front of the runner at 2nd seems to rear it's head alomg the way at around 12-14.  It's bad baseball... Initiate contact and get 3rd base from obstruction.  

 

SS kicking the runner is a problem.  I wouldn't advise retaliating with a kicking contest though.

 

The rest of what you mentioned... Glove slap, dirt kick, dec'ing the runner, etc... are all fine, IMO.

 

In addition to all the reasons mentioned already about why you simply do NOT instruct a HS kid to throw at a batter... You're also jacking with your own pitcher's psyche. Bad news all the way around.  Strike the birdman out... much more satisfying than plunking.

 

Stros184 - I'm not one to preach, but to me there's a difference between a catcher doing a little talking to the batter vs having him call for a bean ball.  That said, I would avoid engaging in either.

Seriously???  I'm dumbfounded that people still believe in this stuff after reading Coach May's post.  To the poster who said a player stepped on another player's hand and blew a kiss - what if it was an accident in course of action that led to hand getting stepped on.  Do you really want it left up to a bunch of kids who watch Sportscenter, listen to people talk about the "rules" to make the decision to make sure this guy knows not to do this ever again?

 

Look at BFS example of ARod getting hit - not only in this incident but it happens a lot in MLB where they miss with the first pitch.  When a pitcher is told to hit a batter he's going to change his approach.  He'll either slow down to try and make sure he hits the batter OR he will speed it up to try and make sure he gets the message.  Both of those lead to missed locations.  

 

This whole thing is just dumb - "hey they just insulted us so let's teach them a lesson by putting a runner on base"

 

What if the hit batter ends up escalating things?  We played a team one time in spring break tournament on the other side of the state.  Only time we would ever face this bunch.  To say they had no class is an understatement.  On a play at third their runner trucked my third baseman.  Nothing happened to the runner - his coach high fived him and umpire didn't eject him.  I lost my mind on the ump and told the coach exactly what I thought of him.  After the game we refused to shake hands with them.  If my pitcher - either on his own or by my order - threw at this kid or any of their kids I have no doubt they would have retaliated by hitting ours.  So what do you do then?  Even without us retaliating both teams were ready to fight due to their coach endorsing this behavior and the umps refusing to do anything about it.  All it took was one small thing to happen and there would have been a brawl.  Is that worth having a fight, players possibly hurt and ejected just to show these guys who's boss?

 

The host school's team was watching the game and I knew their coach fairly well.  After the game the coach told me he had my back.  They played the next day and his team was stacked - they beat them (while ignoring their antics) by 18 runs.  Another school in that area whose coach I played college ball with played them later in the season and beat them by about the same amount all because of how they acted.  

 

You guys act like everyone knows / understands the "unwritten rules" but in my experience that's hardly the case.  Things tend to escalate to where it gets bad.  Like Coach B25 said - handle it man to man.

Somewhat off-topic...

 

Bob Gibson gave up a grand slam to the second-to-last batter he faced in his career (Pete LaCock--it was his only career grand slam).

 

Several years later at an Old Timer's game Gibson faces LaCock and plunks him.

While this is a funny story I still don't understand the whole "I just made a bad pitch so I'm going to hit him next time up".  Make a better pitch next time.

I guess I'm fortunate that I have had very few cases of undeniable retaliation in my games.....but then again, I tend to  "nip that stuff in the bud"......

 

Had a catcher call time before a big mouthed kid came to bat...he walked to the pitcher held his glove up to his face and they both nodded in the direction of the batter..... he took his place behind the plate and I went to clean the dish....just low enough so only he and I could hear it, I said...you know if this kid gets plunked I've got to throw you both out right?.....

 

He stood up and said...loudly...."its off its off"

 

Had a first baseman and say "watch this"...pick off play......he slams the glove down on the runners face, bloodying his nose...... Ejected....

 

Catchers and batters squawking back and forth?, it better be civil........or you get a ok, knock that off. lets play.......

 

You have to keep a lid on this, because as an umpire, you will get the blame either way.....

 

Id rather have them say, "hey let the kids play"...than say "its the umpires (my) fault the game got out of hand".....

 

 

Catchers and batters squawking back and forth?, it better be civil........or you get a ok, knock that off. lets play.......

 

That's what is funny is he talks to the batters the whole game. He lets them know when they make good plays. He has even had the other team give him high five for making good throw to second during warm ups. So when he says this it takes them by surprise, and the umps understand what he is doing, and normally are fed up with the kids also. Every time, the kid at the plate lets that kid know to cut it out, cause it is just hurting his team.

There are ways in the framework of the rules to let your feelings known, send a message or just let it be known you didn't appreciate something that was blatantly wrong. That said, at the HS level it is a risky situation because, after all your dealing with kids. So any kind of retaliation, for want of a better word don't hold me to that word, has to be tempered, or a simple situation can spiral out of control needlessly.

piaa, I'd like to say thanks for that.  I want my players to be the dirtiest (real dirt), toughest, hardest charging animals on the planet.  However, I there is a right way  and wrong way to play this game according to my scruples (I don't care about yours) and so, I outlined my expectations.  For the most part, the cheap shots are few and far in between and so we are fortunate about that. 

 

One more example of an Umpire taking charge.  My daughter was playing in a college showcase tournament where approximately 250 college coaches were in attendance.  They were playing their one game on the "showcase" diamond.  Runner on 3rd, girl bunts to first, for one of the few times, my daughter was playing 1st and so, she fielded the ball, tagged the runner and threw home for a DP.  Girl running to first was knocked off of her feet.  Opposing coach yelled out that he was going to have his daughter knock my daughter down when she came to the plate.  Sure enough, she bunted a ball hard at my daughter.  Daughter fielded the ball, batter/runner came inside the line to take her out football style and learned a huge lesson about stepping on Superman's cape.  As soon as she hit the ground, the Plate Umpire stepped out and called the game awarding it to my daughter's team.  He then went to the tournament director and asked that the other team be thrown out of the tournament.  Keep in mind that this was on the #1 Showcase Diamond.  What an idiot!

In regards to hard tags.  NFHS, this year, has actually instituted a rule in which players can be ejected for malicious tags.

No!  But his daddy needs to take him to the woodshed.

Exactly.  x100.

Thats too bad.  There's an attorney out there somewhere waiting for you and your son...

An attorney

That's cute

Did somebody hit the time machine again? Are we really, in 2014, talking about intentionally throwing at a batter?!?!?! Really?!?!

 

If a coach of mine (at the high school level) did something like that, either he or I would be out of a job the next day. There is NO place for it whatsoever. And you as the coach would lose the lawsuit in a heartbeat if it ended up in court.

 

There are enough serious injuries as it is day in and day out. There's no need to throw at somebody intentionally and increase the odds of serious injury.

 

In case you're wondering, this is what it looks like when a batter gets hit in the face...

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v319062...-pitch/?query=injury

Not sure the catcher could be involved in a lawsuit...even though he called the pitch, but if a kid is injured and they prove that the pitcher did it intentionally, you can bet the pitcher, the coach and the school won't think there's anything cute about it.

In a public high school, you would have problems trying to sue. Performing on a spublic school team would put the catcher, pitcher, coach, etc. within Governmental immunity statutes. You can get around that by proving willful and wanton intention to injure, but you also would have to show that the actions were outside of actions commonly accepted in that community (in this case, the community of baseball coaches, pitchers, etc.) As a defense, you could probably find a lot of pitchers, catchers, and coaches that would testify that throwing at a batter in retaliation was an accepted part of the game.

 

Now, as a criminal case, I see this as no different than some of the hockey cases for assault. No such barriers there. I could see a pitcher charged with assault (or battery, depending on the state) and the catcher and coach charged with the same. Maybe even criminal conspiracy. 

 

Government immunity statutes generally protect officials from personal liability when acting within the scope of their duties, but they do not protect them from the consequences of deliberate malfeasance.  Don't see how they would protect a baseball player (not an official) from consequences of deliberately beaning someone.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I know a tiny bit about this subject from when I was a potential target of litigation because someone didn't like a decision I made.  Any lawyers care to comment?

 

I am an attorney and deal with governmental immunity a lot. Statutes and caselaw will differ a little from state to state. However, many states have caselaw concerning extracurricular activities and have found that a student participating is in the same situation as someone acting as a teacher's aid or lab assistant for credit. They are treated as being "on the clock." You're right. The one way around GI is through what is considered "wanton and willful." You would have to prove an actual intent to injure or show a disregard for injury by actions that were outside the scope of the activity. So, the argument would be that beanballs fit that description. The defense, however, is going to argue that it's a widely accepted part of the game and not meant to actually injure. That issue would go to a jury. So, it's up in the air. The same has come up in many states concerning injuries incurred at football practice or malicious hits. They are hard to get a settlement on unless it is completely indefensible and I think there are enough people out htere, especialy outside of our little baseball world, that might consider the actual injury just an unintended side effect of a normal aspect of the game (not that I agree). Note this doesn't apply to private schools or to, say, a travel ball team.

Come on, lawyers get involved in baseball, then it's down hill for baseball. pitchers are going to throw at batters for retaliation,  whether you like it or not.  The best option is to control it. Make sure if they do it it is done with in parameters.  Certain pitchers it should not be done with. No, it should not be called by the coach, but as a coach you can't always stop it. Yes I know how bad things can get, had a cousin killed coaching a 12 year old team, when the other coach didn't like a call at home, and decided to hit him in the head with head with a bat.

Then you, of all people, should be trying to prevent these situations from escalating, instead of accepting them as inevitable.

so the first rule of any kind you need to teach your young pitcher is don't say anything to anyone about your intent without your father present...nothing to nobody player, coach or friend. end of lawsuit - if you don't speak - nobody can prove anything!!

 

That being said pitchers hitting batters teams deserving it are timeless parts of the game that will never go away regardless what any of us think.

 

My son is a freshman, he has hit 2 batters on purpose in his life. Nobody told him to hit either one. One time I was his coach another time I was not...both I times i was good with move. Both times the actual kid he hit had earned it in a big way and both times were right in the hip...maybe I am just old_school but it is the way the games was played when i was in HS and Legion (mid 80's) hell my HS had a sign for it from the bench, but it is still part of the game.

 

I will have a talk with him tonight - that is certainly good advise regardless of where you stand on the issue.

 

 

Yet you still feel it's ok for a HS pitcher to hit another HS kid with an 85+ mph fastball that could potentially cause a life threatening injury to the batter?

Unfortunately I can't fix stupid. But hopefully I'm there to care for the batter when your son hits somebody in the head... That is abuse, child endangerment, and just flat out wrong!

 

oh the drama...the truth is the head is one of the safest places for a kid to get with the helmets they wear these days. I never said he should hit him in the head, i never told him to hit a kid - he is a smart and observes lots of things, it is pretty clear when it is appropriate.

 

Plus we already established that he will never say anything to anyone so it is nothing!! Honestly this whole thread is much to say about nothing.

 

You want to not be thrown at, respect the game, respect the other players and you will have very few problems, if any.

Thanks for the advice. I am always looking to learn.  According to NFHS when is the pitcher allowed to start his delivery? The other night the pitcher was starting his delivery before we entered the box. My player was asking for time as he entered, but the umpire did not grant it.  You are prob. right a good umpire should have said something about the hard tag, but also prob.should have addressed the previous behavior by the other team.  I have been doing this a long time and some officials will be proactive and take control of the situation before it gets out of hand and others simply have to react to what happens.

 To personally attack me by saying I have done a poor job is simply out of line. 

Most all of the serious umpires I work with have personal liability coverage. It is sometimes provided by the association, but most often its purchased separately by the umpire.  Mostly to protect us from the type of behavior in the above post.....are we are considered responsible for an illegal action because we didn't stop other actions?......in my book you cant blame that on the umpire....

 

Now, not all umpires carry this coverage, but in this litigious society, often the net is cast pretty wide when a lawsuit is filed in sports. You may ultimately not be held liable, but the cost of defending yourself can still be significant. As a member of some of the  larger associations of sports officials, I pay for the coverage....its cost reasonable and provides me with some added comfort should an on field event drag me into a lawsuit.

 

d8,

 

Not sure how you took my response as a personal attack, however I will give the benefit of the doubt, that written responses may sometimes be misinterpreted. 

 

You asked a question:   what is a coach to do with players who take it upon themselves to retaliate, and act outside the lines?  My response is that most players take on the personality of their HC, and at a minimum know what the guidelines are (written or unwritten), and will act accordingly.  My kids know what they can get away with, and so do players.  In addition, it would always be advisable to cover these things prior to them happening, so that players know where the coach stands.  Could you still have a rogue player act on his own...sure can, but the discipline that follows should not take that player by surprise.  Now if the coach is one that acts the "fool" all the time, then expect the players to do the same.

 

I took your question as a generic question, not as it relates to you.  My answer was a generic answer, and I stand by it. 

Maybe the most assinine thing I've ever read on any message board.  You justify hitting someone in the head by saying "it's safe cause he's wearing a helmet"....then 2 sentences later say kids should "respect the game...respect other players"   Curious...what happens when your son throws a FB and hits the kid in the face? 

 

Oh right, he'll never tell, so you're not liable....so it's ok.....unbelievable

 

 

Old_school - I hear what you're saying and I'm not one to preach, but try this scenario.  Your son decides an opponent has done something that deserves a good beaning.  So he puts a FB in a kids ribs and looks are exchanged.  You're in the stands, approving... Because you saw the same offense that "warranted" your son's action.  Now it's two innings later... And your son steps to the plate.  The equally old school opposing pitcher knows just what to do... He cranks up a retaliatory fastball but misses your boy's ribs, instead catching him on his throwing hand... breaking it in two places.  No fatalities... Just good old school baseball baby.  Only your son doesn't pitch all summer due to his hand being in a cast.

 

Hope that none of that ever happens btw, but it's not really a far fetched scenario.  Just something to think about... a reason to encourage your son to steer clear of this type of activity, since the whole sportsmanship thing isn't a deterrent apparently.

 

The problem is that simply isn't true. The majority of the thankfully-few times I've ever had to deal with pitchers intentionally throwing at batters in HS or below, there was no action by the batter or offense that warranted it. It was players making the decision on their own, emulating what they have seen, without knowing the ins and outs of what goes into that decision.

For all of you that believe you can stop teenage boys from retaliating against each other, I have plenty of unicorn feed for sale. There are always dirty players, annoying players. The best way to control retaliation is realize it's going to happen. Benching a kid after he hit a kid in the head does no good, if that same kid understands that hitting the kid in legs or hip, will still send the message, then you save a kid from getting drilled in the head.

Stop talking. Use the time that you would be posting here to reevaluate your moral compass.

Situation happened a month ago, kid 1 has 0-2 count gets hit with curve. He bows up, starts calling pitcher every name in book. Catcher gets in front of batter and tells him to just take your base. Batter spits sunflower seeds in catcher's face. Catcher look at BU, and tells him what happened, the BU said I didn't see it. Catcher tells his coach, coach has a meeting with other coach. Other coach said same thing "I didn't see it". This kid caused problems the whole game, no one stopping him.The team gets in dug out all the kids event the pitcher want to hit him in the head. The catcher says no, we are going to hit the kid after him, who is on catcher summer team. Pitcher was instructed by catcher to hit him in the thigh. He did, that kid was informed by catcher why. Once it made it back to there coach, the coach pulled the kid acting a fool.. the next time we played them, not one problem from the kid. So if the catcher had been told never to hit some one, the pitcher was going to throw at the kids head. Its like the sex talk, do you tell your boy don't have sex, or do you tell him don't have sex, but if you decide to wrap it up.

The head is the safest place to get hit? And people are bothering to argue with his logic?

I think we need to shrink the gene pool.