Bean ball etiquette?

GMTA!

GMTA=Great minds think alike, BFS was posting essentially the same thing I was at the same time!

This thread has been very interesting. (I'm replying so I can stop getting the notifications!)

I'm the original poster. By the way, the two teams play again tonight.... There's more to the saga.

 

The kid from team 1 that was hit after the disputed foul ball, was later hit again in the same game. I had not mentioned this as it had nothing to do with the kid from team 2 being hit.  This was prior to the incident on the basepath by team 2 that led to said baserunner being hit.

 

After the kid from team #1 was hit a second time, he kind of threw his bat down and went toward first base. He was yelled at by parents from team 2 who called for him to be thrown out for slamming his bat and he was heckled by players from team 2 in the dugout.

 

This really ticked off team 1's coach. The final was 14-1 However, most of the runs were as a result of team 2's poor defense. After the game, a parent or parents from team 2 (with close ties to the school board) went directly to the conference's athletic director and lodged a complaint against team 1's coach for running up the score. As a result, he's been in hot water over the runs scored, but not over the bird flapping base runner being hit. The reality is that the score wasn't really a run up the score situation as much as it was team 2's ineptitude on defense. They had previously lost 17-0 to another team without lodging a complaint.

 

So, it should be interesting tonight.There are two undercurrents.1. Will anyone be hit as a result of the previous game? 2. Will team 1 actually show team 2 what running up the score really looks like? There is some talk that they will really keep the pedal down tonight.

I doubt there will be much to see relating to the first incident. Hopefully since that game everyone involved has cooled down and possibly grown up a little. If not, I'm sure the umpires have been informed of the situation. They will be quick with warnings and ejections.

You would hope so.  I'm sure some of the parents in the stands are waiting for the drama and in some cases might be promoting it.  But you got to believe the coaches on both teams wouldn't want their teams, their players, their parents and themselves making the 10:00 news over a kid flapping his armslike a bird while on base and the other things that happend previously.

I think its time to just play baseball......

Bean ball wars are not easily forgotten.  I was drilled in the head while in HS and still remember the name of the pitcher and the circumstances surrounding the event.  Even after I graduated, I know that that event was brought up when the two teams played. 

 

I too hope that things have cooled down and that they get to enjoy a great game. 

Stafford - The coach is in some sort of actual trouble over the score?  Sounds like you're saying that he didn't run it up, but even if he had... Running up the score is bad form, but official complaints to the conference??

Parents can complain all they want (although they should not) about running a score up, however 14-1 is hardly running the score up, especially if the team had bad defense.  Also, you can't win either way when it comes to a game that gets out of hand, where one team is clearly much better than the other. 

 

I have had cases where we shut it down, only to be told by the other coach that we were disrespecting them by pulling back, and others where they get mad if you keep playing.  It's a no win situation.

 

Hope cooler heads prevail in this one.

You'd be surprised. Many times we don't hear a thing about bad blood unless we get it through the grapevine. If there's no official report made in earlier games, we generally don't get any notice. 

Yeah I never get the running it up argument.  Sure, if you get ~10 runs up... you probably stop running and you probably go station to station.  If it's past the half way point in the game, maybe you do some subbing.  But it's not like you can tell your team to stop hitting the ball.  Conversely though, if it's a busy week of district games... then it might be time to run rule a team or else pad the lead to the max such that the bottom of the bullpen can safety mop up... Saving arms for the other games.

 

Either way, I can't understand parents complaining about 14-1 or, more accurately, can't understand a conference official entertaining any such complaints.

Yeah, I don't think the coach was running it up. When the kid from team 1 was hit the second time it wasn't a big deal because the relief pitcher from team 2 lacked control. He was all over the place, walked batters, etc... So, there was no intent. However, that didn't mean the batter wasn't upset at getting hit twice in the same game. When he slammed his bat, it brought about the reaction from players and fans from team 2 who got on him pretty hard, especially the parents who were already fired up over the coach getting thrown out.

 

Later, after the bird flapping baserunner was plunked, team 1's twice hit batter came up again. He smashed a hard grounder at the shortstop that was misplayed and ended up reaching second base. He then stole third on his own which he shouldn't have done. This steal of third added to the problem and the idea of running up the score. Of course, he should have been out on a ground ball to begin with, but like I said, no defense from team 2.

 

Team 2 just lost their most recent game by double digits as well, and didn't score.

Don't you do mostly the same conference all season. We saw the same rotation of umpires all season. From talking to them before games in the parking lot (knew many of them from travel) they seemed to know what was going on in the conference. Maybe they knew more about our team since they had labeled our coach an ignorant jackass who needs to read the rule book someday.

I realize very few HS pitchers can hit 90MPH, but this still should make any pitcher, coach or parent who thinks intentionally hitting a batter is cool .. perhaps reconsider: 

 

"Houston Astros prospect Delino DeShields Jr. shows off his extremely swollen face after being hit with a 90 mph fastball during a Double-A game. According to CBS Sports' Mike Axisa, DeShields Jr., who was the eighth overall pick in the 2010 draft, was able to walk off the field under his own power after the play. Brian McTaggart of MLB.com reports DeShileds Jr. has a fractured cheekbone."

 

Game was uneventful. Coach from team 1 pulled his starters in the third and threw a j.v. pitcher for the last 3 innings. Game was horrible to watch but stayed competitive, I guess, from a score standpoint.

 

Bird flapping runner from team 2 didn't play until very late and came in as a pinch hitter. He leaned into a curve and got hit. Once he got to first, team 2 substituted a base runner for him. And that was about it.

......................wow that's just not good.

So this past weekend we are at the NTIS in Cary, last inning of game. The boy infront of my son hits 2out bases empty ball to the gap, the kid can really run, he round 2nd and he is thinking of nothing but touch them all...the coach holds him at 3rd. The own bench goes crazy, the parents go crazy the evaluators from USA are yelling at the 3b coach for holding him(he should of sent him with 2outs i believe but whatever). My son walks up the plate and get hit square in the back the very first pitch...I thought of this thread on contact - that being the ball contacting my sons back!!

 

The coach of his team actually said to me he was sure it was intentional, my son said the same...kind of ironic!! LOL the good news is he lived and we are good to go! Also a clear point of where it was totally out of line if in fact it was in fact intentional! the kid was smart enough to keep his mouth shut and I didn't ask anyone any questions!!

 

I thought it was worth noting.  

Good completely pointless and meaningless story old_school?

 

Thanks for bumping this thread, I missed it the first time through.

 

Do you coach youth baseball? Do you have any influence on kids playing?

 

If so, please let us know with what team you're affiliate so we can know to make sure kids avoid playing on and against that team. Anyone who openly advocates for children to inflict physical harm on each other over some sort of egotistical war of hearsay should be banned from involvement in the game. 

 

EDIT: Parsing through some of your history here and extrapolating from your screenname, I think I have a good idea of your stance on a lot of topics revolving around similar ethical "dilemmas" (I put dilemmas in quotes because there shouldn't be a dilemma about kids hitting each other intentionally). I probably started a battle here that's not worth my time. Oh well.

 

nope, no involvement other than supporting parent who doesn't rock the boat about anything and is totally in support of the organization (and pay the bill!) - so the baseball world is safe - is there is a web site I need to sign up for as a predator or something? Smile that was a joke!

 

The good news at least from my perspective is my son rolled with it, it didn't throw him off his game at all and he wasn't even mad about it! I gues you make things as good or bad as you want them to be.

 

I am happy to know that your son didn't stoop down to that level and hope he continues to approach the game with that sort of logic and reasoning.

 

When players get hit intentionally there is a purpose behind it.  What do you perceive to be the reason your son got hit intentionally?

Thanks I missed some of this too.  I was at the game when Deshields got hit in the face.  He was not hit on purpose he actually turned into the ball.  I know that wasn't the point but I wouldn't want someone thinking the pitcher did it on purpose.  He was very, very lucky that night, it was very scary.

the pitcher was stupid, he didn't understand the time or the place. my boy was the next kid up...it had nothing to do with him - he just happened to be the next spot in the order

To me it wasn't that big of deal, I stated I just thought it was ironic. Maybe if more coaches taught the proper reasons for it we wouldn't be having this conversation...hmmm it is obviously the pitchers coaches fault!! Relax that was a little bit funny.

No coach should ever teach any reason for intentionally hitting a batter.
Leave that stuff to the professionals.
To be honest , there doesnt seem to be a reason why your son got hit so I am chalking it up to "you should have been there".

that fielder's feet were inbounds when he touched the ball

 

It is where the ball is.

 

 

that being said throwing at kids in high school? to all those that see no problem with it .Good to see as coaches all your pitchers have pin point control that they can hit another player i the back or leg at will? 

Given the choice of walking or hitting the hitter, I would chose hitting the hitter every time.  You gain nothing when walking a hitter unless it is intentional. And it takes at least 4 pitches to walk the hitter, usually more.

 

You actually do gain a lot by throwing inside, and even gain something by hitting the batter. Best is busting them in without hitting them, but if you do this you are going to hit some of them. You are not hitting them on purpose but you are telling them your not afraid to go in there.

 

Intentionally hitting a batter is dangerous, but we all know it happens.  It is almost always in retaliation. the opposing pitcher has intentionally hit one of your teammates. Someone has gone out of their way to display lack of respect. A pitcher can lose his teammates respect if he fails to retaliate.  You don't see it outside of pro ball that often, but it does happen. In pro ball it is actually expected of you to stand up and retaliate for your teammates. It is the normal routine.  Sometimes pitchers will actually throw behind the hitter to send the message, sometimes they want to hurt the hitter.

 

There are rules and penalties for intentionally throwing at a hitter.  The retaliator or second time it happens the pitcher gets tossed.  The initiator gets warned along with the opposing team.  It is up to the umpire to decide what is intentional and what is accidental. That can be difficult at times and obvious at times. But considering the danger involved, the penalty is nowhere near enough to change things.

 

To me there is no place for this in youth baseball.  It is simply too dangerous in most cases. Many kids have not learned how to get hit by a pitch. To be honest I would have a hard time telling a young boy with a good arm to even throw inside. 

 

When my boys played "travel" at 10-11-12, the pitchers were awful coming inside.  I tried to coach that a very effective pitch was the down & in 2 seamer righty to righty. 

 

Kids just couldn't do it.

 

They'd leave it out over the plate or instead of looking at the target just stare at the batter and run it in on him and plunk him.  Some would get so shook about hitting someone we had to come get them. If I answered the question once I answered it 100 times, we are not throwing up and in.  We are throwing thighs down in and if you hit someone in the butt or leg and it is not on purpose that is OK.  All of you have been hit and it is part of the game.

 

The better teams we played had this as part of their pitching skill set.  it kept everyone from diving out to get and wrap around the outside pitches.

Ok, let's see if I can hijack this conversation.

 

Let's suppose, for argument's sake, that we all agree that, in youth baseball, it is not okay for a coach to instruct his pitcher to throw at a batter in retaliation for some perceived transgression.

 

What are the unwritten rules, the main tenets of baseball sportsmanship that are the basis of a general understanding that there are some things that players should never do that would otherwise indicate a lack of respect for the game and their opposition.These are rules that should be taught to little leaguers, in my opinion--that is, well before travel baseball.

 

I'll start off the list with a couple random "unwritten" rules. Thou shalt not:

1. Square to bunt with your team ahead by X runs (8??) late in a game.
2. Steal a base with your team ahead by X runs late in a game.
3. Recklessly spike a fielder when approaching a base.
4. As a 2nd or 3rd baseman, pretend that a foul ball is fair, and thereby fool a baserunner into sliding, instead of alerting the approaching baserunner to pull up.
5. Yell out "I got it," when your team is at bat and there is a play in the field.
6. As a retired baserunner, when returning to the dugout, cross over the pitcher's mound.

 

What other "unwritten" rules are there in baseball?

 

(Frankly, and for the record, by the time a player is playing 15U, if he does any of the above things, I'm okay if a pitcher plunks a batter in the middle of his back.)

"Show me a guy who can't pitch inside and I'll show you a loser." –Sandy Koufax

WTHF?

Those may be unwritten rules but I dont see any that suggest that a young pitcher should intentionally hit anyone. There is NO place for this in youth bb, for reasons stated by PG. 

 

This has nothing to do with pitching inside and I agree with what was said, better to hit someone trying to throw a pitch inside than to walk  the batter.

PG did a nice job of explaining how it works in pro ball. Hitting a batter intentionally is not allowed though you do see it happen.  Sometimes it happens right away, sometimes an inning or two later, and you may never know it was intentional. They have their ow set of rules as to what is acceptable and what is not.  

 

If a player spikes another player intentionally that should be an immediate ejection, or intentionally trying to hurt someone.

 

Matt13,

I don't get that one either!!!!

 

Only #3 is potentially physically harmful to a player on the field and if a coach teaches spiking players, he should be banned from youth baseball just as quickly as a coach that teaches intentionally hitting players. There is absolutely no place in the game for purposely inflicting harm on an opponent. It is never right.

 

I find the fact that there is a thread on a message board geared toward youth baseball entitled "Bean ball etiquette" to be very alarming.

 

Look no matter how you try to justify it, it's just not going to fly. There is simply no place for it and no reason for it. I know people want to feel like their big time by acting like ML managers. But your coaching kids. Why people can not understand this I have no idea.

 

In fairness, while you may or may not be correct you are also assuming coaches are actively calling for this. I don't believe that is the case at all. I think it has been a part of the game for as long as the game existed, I think everyone agrees it happens in the pros and adult leagues, it has been mentioned countless times on TV and or in the stands at games forever – you could argue it has been glorified at times when old timers talk about the game back in the day...it has happened for generations. You don’t think kids hear about things?  I know in HS as far back as the mid 1980’s it happened and nobody got excited about it. But now it is a terrible thing, unconscionable and shouldn’t ever be tolerated or even act like it is part of the game - please that is putting your head in the sand.

 

 

I don't believe it is a big part of the game at any level, I believe it is a very very tiny part of the game at older youth levels and I believe it is going to happen regardless of any of our opinions on it. Lets not act like this new or shocking.

 I know people want to feel like their big time by acting like ML managers.

 

 

There is the problem

I see my hijack attempt fell flat.

 

I'm pretty sure (or hope) that no one thinks that any of the situations I listed is not "bad baseball." Let me take a different tack:

 

So how does an opposing coach go about telling the coach of the offending team that his kids need to be taught how to play the game properly, or one day--sooner or later, rightly or wrongly--somebody will throw at them. At what point should all kids playing competitive baseball know (or have been taught) the proper way to conduct themselves between the white lines?

My son having been part of a 12U team that intentionally threw at someone, there is no place for it.  If there are issues, the coaches and umpires should talk about it like men.  Not take in out on some kid craping his pants at the plate.  My respect for the coaches that did it went from 9 to 0 in a matter of seconds -- a bunch of losers imo. 

 

In HS, the kids may take it upon themselves (since they no longer listen to adults).  But the coach needs to address it with the players when it happens. 

   

Old school,
On the pro level it happens more often than we realize, you just arent aware of it.

Oh I am aware of it I just am not trying to start a civil war. People can be a little sensative around here at times IMO...taking the high road!

 

LOL. "Taking the high road" = condoning children intentionally inflicting harm on each other. Thanks for teaching me that.

 

Stay out of youth baseball.